The Monk from the 12/17 packet

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Reposting to it's own thread.

To me, the current Monk really doesn't make any sense. 

A (single locked-in type of) Monk can finally Fly/Jump with Warrior's Gale... by burning a too-rare Ki point. Meanwhile, teleportation is absent... until level 12, when suddenly every Monk can do it at will. Just make Abundant Step an optional Ki power (as they should ALL be-- why can't my Monk be from of the Path of the Phoenix learn Flames of the Phoenix, Warrior's Gale, and Wholeness of Body instead? Seems thematic to me) and greatly increase the number of Ki/day. Also, make Vault-like Monk maneuver that is useful for those who want to wire-jump at-will. Right now, Rogues super-jump better than Monks.

At level 20, all of a Monks abilities suddenly become 20. Again, too abrupt and specific. Why not have a Monk gradually increase SOME abilities to their peak as they level.

Tongue of the Sun and the Moon is, not surprisingly, too specific. Monks could instead gain training in different Lore skills or languages as they level.

In conclusion, though Monk is my favorite class so far in the playtest (which is not too hard at the moment), they seem to be too limited in choices, both during creation/advancement (with too many locked in features) and play (too few Ki points and Maneuvers gained). Also Abundant Step vs. Warrior's Gale vs. no-Vault needs to be looked at.

My suspicion is they've arranged the maneuvers in terms of monastic training without a whole lot of adjustment to see what we thought of the new arrangement.


The monk also interests me the most by far, though the cleric is up there too.


My suspicion is they've arranged the maneuvers in terms of monastic training without a whole lot of adjustment to see what we thought of the new arrangement.


The monk also interests me the most by far, though the cleric is up there too.




I hope so. My fear is that the developers see the Monk, as a "non-core" class, as not needing to have a lot of options.
I assume the 20s in every attribute is meant to be a capstone ability - a completely broken ability given to a class right before the class retires. So, the final story can involve the monk jumping to the moon, or the Druid healing the EarthTree, or whatever. The big question is - do the other classes get the same thing? So far, I hear no, which makes me feel the monks designer thinks like me but doesn't have a lot of pull. So, if his ideas are popular, then more classes will get a capstone.
The Monk got a lot of cool toys this time around--more than everyone else, I think.  The very first thing I'd take away from her are the "20s in all attributes" thing and the "speaks all languages" thing.  Those are stupid and overpowered.
The Monk got a lot of cool toys



The very first thing I'd take away



It seems to me this is not the right approach...

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Yeah, I think it would be better to proliferate "cool things" to other classes, rather than taking them from the Monk.

I do agree all 20s and every language are a little extreme, sudden, and specific (as is at-will teleportation)-- which is why I suggested simply more stat bumps, lore skills and languages, and resource-using leaping/flight/teleporting options for the Monk.
So once something has been given to a class, it should stay there forever?  No matter what?  Once the cat's out of the bag, it's out to stay?

I don't buy that.

Some things are just too good.  I firmly believe that those two Monk class features are too good, and that the best way to deal with that is to make them go away

I don't want to see the other classes be forced to have other over-the-top powers just to keep pace with the Monk; I want to see the Monk's over-the-top powers done away with or seriously, seriously ratcheted down a few notches.
Seriously, why can't Martial characters have nice things? 


High-level Fighters should be able to pull continents together, like Heracles pulls Africa and Europe together at the Pillars between Morroco and Spain.  Monks should be able to jump to the Moon.  Rogues should be able to steal their own souls from the Gods.  These are capstone supernatural abilities, but natural conclusions of a martial character who has honed their abilities to be able to stand up against gods and demon lords. 

Wizards and Clerics should NOT be only classes that get world changing mechanical abilities.  Remember, we're talking about very high level characters.  These aren't characters at the start of their career. If anything, the Monk needs MORE, not LESS.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

I'd prefer that Wizards and Clerics not have world-changing mechanical abilities either...
Actually, I think the Monk's captsone is a lot less powerful than it looks.  By level 20, any given monk is going to at or near the cap in the stats Monks need most.  The capstone will mostly be filling in his tertiary and dump stats.  That's cool and all, but it doesn't make him a juggernaut.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Actually, I think the Monk's captsone is a lot less powerful than it looks.  By level 20, any given monk is going to at or near the cap in the stats Monks need most.  The capstone will mostly be filling in his tertiary and dump stats.  That's cool and all, but it doesn't make him a juggernaut.



Technically, since your abilities don't increase with level (bound accuracy), what this does is make the Monk amazing at EVERYTHING for a capstone.  I'd like something a little more powerful, actually.  >_>

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Actually, I think the Monk's captsone is a lot less powerful than it looks.  By level 20, any given monk is going to at or near the cap in the stats Monks need most.  The capstone will mostly be filling in his tertiary and dump stats.  That's cool and all, but it doesn't make him a juggernaut.

You forget that stat's are used for saving throws.  It's a pretty big defensive jump, if not an offensive one.  (though Dex and Wis seem to be the major ones).


Though i'd still rather see the monk get some of these things a bit more gradually.

Like...
12: All your ability scores are 12.
14: All your ability scores are 14.
16: all your ability scores are 16.
18: all your ability scores are 18.
20: all your ability scores are 20.
*(or higher.) 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Monk has no alignment restriction anymore, only alignment suggestion... No  ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

But you guys are forgetting that in order to get the final monk ability you have to kill all the other monks in the world. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!!!
My two copper.
I don't like the "all 20s" ability just 'cause it's lame. There's a better way to give them a bonus to all saves (like through a bonus to all saves).
"all 20s" does a hell of a lot more than a bonus to all saves.

Oh and Plague

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You forget that stat's are used for saving throws.  It's a pretty big defensive jump, if not an offensive one.  (though Dex and Wis seem to be the major ones). 


I am not forgetting that.  Most saving throws are against Dex and Wis, with a fair few on Con, and just a few on Cha.  It's a nice defensive boost for those weak defenses, also remember that many Con saving throws are against poison, which the Monk is already immune to anyway.

And I'm not saying it isn't good, I'm just saying initial reactions of "omg, overpowered!" need to give way to actually assessing the ability. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Didn't one of the packets have Web being a Str save?

All six are available.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Hmmm.  I had forgotten the implication of that.  So basically, Monks become able to shake off, avoid, or walk through like a saint unaffected, ANY spell effect. 

This is a great capstone, and really reflects a mixture of martial arts training and their magical ki sustaining them.  It's like the greatest of the Jedi Masters.  I like it.  But Fighters and Rogues need similar BUT DIFFERENT nice things, ones that don't work off of Ki, but DO work off a Martial story.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

since your abilities don't increase with level (bound accuracy)

False.  Not only do they increase with level, bounded accuracy does nothing to prevent it.  So false on two counts.

D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I actually really, really dislike the current Monk.

I feel like it gets way too few maneuvers, way too few ki abilities, and too many silly supernatural abilities. Why can monks teleport? Why can they turn ethereal? What do those abilities have to do with being good at martial arts? Last time I checked, neither Jackie Chan nor any character he's ever played has been able to teleport or turn ethereal just because they're good at martial arts.

I'd be fine with the telportation and etherealness if they were just made optional Monk ki abilities. Same thing with Quivering Palm. I get that these abilities are iconic for the Monk, but they don't fit in with my image of what I want my monk to be able to do. I want a supernatural martial artist, who while his ki allows him to do things with his martial arts that a mundane martial artist can't do, he's still limited to doing things that a human body can do. Some elemental attacks and hadoken type abilities aren't too bad, but teleporting and etherealness are too much. Those aren't physical feats enhanced by ki...those are just flat out magical powers, and that's not what I want.

I think the monk needs to loose most of the built in abilities. Drop Tongue of Sun and Moon and Perfect Self. Increase the number of maneuvers and ki abilities a monk gets.Include Quivering Palm, Abundant Step, and Empty Body  as optional ki abilities instead of making them something every Monk gets. Truth be told, I'd be fine with the Monk also loosing most of its immunities. I don't think it's very fair nor interesting that the monk gets a bunch of immunities and none of the other classes get anything even remotely similar.

Give me a supernatural martial artist, not a guy who becomes magical because he's good at punching people.
D&D Experience Level: Relatively new First Edition: 4th Known Editions: 4th, 3.5 --- Magic Experience Level: Fairly skilled First Expansion: 7th Edition Play Style: Very Casual
Actually, I think the Monk's captsone is a lot less powerful than it looks.  By level 20, any given monk is going to at or near the cap in the stats Monks need most.  The capstone will mostly be filling in his tertiary and dump stats.  That's cool and all, but it doesn't make him a juggernaut.



Technically, since your abilities don't increase with level (bound accuracy), what this does is make the Monk amazing at EVERYTHING for a capstone.  I'd like something a little more powerful, actually.  >_>



Every Character gets to raise ability scores at specific levels as shown in the level chart on page 5 of the "how to create a character" packet. Also "Bounded Accuracy" as described by the devs has nothing to do with increasing ability scores, but there are several great threads where this is explained.

Also, has anyone else noticed how incredibly useless quivering palm is?  Aside from the fact that failing three consecutive saves has this wierd tipping point between "actually really easy because the save DC is next to impossible" and "incredibly unlikely because I've actually got a good CON score," with very little ground imbetween, there's the simple problem that MOST NEXT FIGHTS ARE OVER IN LESS THAN 3 ROUNDS.  Yay, if the fighter hadn't cut off its head, my quivering palm would have destroyed it!  I feel useful!  I haven't run the math on every monster yet, but just eyeballing HP/damage ratios  it's looking like short combats are here to stay, and that makes SoSoSoD pretty useless.  
Also, has anyone else noticed how incredibly useless quivering palm is?  Aside from the fact that failing three consecutive saves has this wierd tipping point between "actually really easy because the save DC is next to impossible" and "incredibly unlikely because I've actually got a good CON score," with very little ground imbetween, there's the simple problem that MOST NEXT FIGHTS ARE OVER IN LESS THAN 3 ROUNDS.  Yay, if the fighter hadn't cut off its head, my quivering palm would have destroyed it!  I feel useful!  I haven't run the math on every monster yet, but just eyeballing HP/damage ratios  it's looking like short combats are here to stay, and that makes SoSoSoD pretty useless.  



1) Punch the dragon.
2) Run away.
3) ???
4) Profit.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I actually really, really dislike the current Monk.

I feel like it gets way too few maneuvers, way too few ki abilities, and too many silly supernatural abilities. Why can monks teleport? Why can they turn ethereal? What do those abilities have to do with being good at martial arts? Last time I checked, neither Jackie Chan nor any character he's ever played has been able to teleport or turn ethereal just because they're good at martial arts.

I'd be fine with the telportation and etherealness if they were just made optional Monk ki abilities. Same thing with Quivering Palm. I get that these abilities are iconic for the Monk, but they don't fit in with my image of what I want my monk to be able to do. I want a supernatural martial artist, who while his ki allows him to do things with his martial arts that a mundane martial artist can't do, he's still limited to doing things that a human body can do. Some elemental attacks and hadoken type abilities aren't too bad, but teleporting and etherealness are too much. Those aren't physical feats enhanced by ki...those are just flat out magical powers, and that's not what I want.

I think the monk needs to loose most of the built in abilities. Drop Tongue of Sun and Moon and Perfect Self. Increase the number of maneuvers and ki abilities a monk gets.Include Quivering Palm, Abundant Step, and Empty Body  as optional ki abilities instead of making them something every Monk gets. Truth be told, I'd be fine with the Monk also loosing most of its immunities. I don't think it's very fair nor interesting that the monk gets a bunch of immunities and none of the other classes get anything even remotely similar.

Give me a supernatural martial artist, not a guy who becomes magical because he's good at punching people.



I think some of those capstone features can and should stay, but teleportation and etherealness are too much. 

Also, apparently they have those high-end features filled in for the Monk because they knew them already, while Mearls says they're still tinkering around with high-end features for the Fighter and Rogue.  >_>

I hope that's the case.  Perfect Body is great, and very thematic for the Monk.  Fighters and Rogues need something equivalent, though.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Abundant Step is nice too as an at-will teleport, so is the Etherealness of Empty Body..

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />
Though i'd still rather see the monk get some of these things a bit more gradually.

Like...
12: All your ability scores are 12.
14: All your ability scores are 14.
16: all your ability scores are 16.
18: all your ability scores are 18.
20: all your ability scores are 20.
*(or higher.) 



Yes, this is how I'd like to see this done, as a gradual achievment of physical perfection/enlightenment. Still, I would rather this be optional... some Monks would not have Perfect Self, maybe some would have either a physical or mental version, and some would have the whole shebang.

Monk has no alignment restriction anymore, only alignment suggestion... No  ?






Here's my thoughts so far on the Monk:

* The alignment restriction is gone.

* I'm glad they added the monastic traditions.

* I think Purity of Body, Clear Mind and Diamond Body are overpowered. Granting advantage on saves against those conditions would be preferable to granting blanket immunity, IMO.
  
* I don't like Abundant Step or Quivering Palm. I think they should be Ki abilities instead. At-will teleportation is ridiculous. Not even wizards get that.

* Tongue of the Sun and Moon and Timeless Body just don't make any sense for Monks to have, IMO. What about a Monk's training makes him a magical super linguist? And the idea that monks can become immune to aging is just odd. There are plenty of examples of very old monks. I can see them not suffering aging penalties to their physical ability scores, but becoming immune to aging and not needing to eat or drink is a bit over the top.

* Empty Body should be an optional Ki ability, not something all Monks get. 

* Perfect Self is just stupidly overpowered.

Overall, I'm disappointed with this version of the Monk, though I am glad they relented on the alignment restriction. It's obvious that there was alot of copy/pasting from 3rd edition going on here, except then someone must have thought "I can make Perfect Self even better!"
I have some mixed feelings about the current incarnation of the monk.  I feel sort of neutral toward the elimination of alignment restrictions.  If it was me, I would have switched it to non-chaotic, but *shrugs*.  The biggest thing for me, though, is some of their new abilities.  I really don't like some of the over-the-top abilities or crazy elemental stuff in the monk.  I know that they are making the game, so they can determine what ki is and how it manifests, but I am not a big fan of elemental damage in the monk(at least in core, force seems acceptable though).  The "all 20's" ability seems nuts and I agree they can do better. 

Here's a thought:  What would you suggest adding to the monk's arsenal?  Here's a thought for an ability that I had...

(insert name of ability here/haven't decided):  If damage, an attack, or any power would kill the monk, they may expend one usage of ki.  The monk uses his/her mental discipline to continue to survive or fight despite being mortally wounded.  There would be a check each turn to maintain the ability, but this can only be done for 2+1 round every 4 levels.  Failure to maintain the ability results in death.  The DC to maintain the effect will be increased by 2 for every ten damage done beyond what would otherwise be fatal.  50 damage or more beyond what would kill the monk will kill them regardless.
I actually really, really dislike the current Monk.

I feel like it gets way too few maneuvers, way too few ki abilities, and too many silly supernatural abilities. Why can monks teleport? Why can they turn ethereal? What do those abilities have to do with being good at martial arts? Last time I checked, neither Jackie Chan nor any character he's ever played has been able to teleport or turn ethereal just because they're good at martial arts.

I'd be fine with the telportation and etherealness if they were just made optional Monk ki abilities. Same thing with Quivering Palm. I get that these abilities are iconic for the Monk, but they don't fit in with my image of what I want my monk to be able to do. I want a supernatural martial artist, who while his ki allows him to do things with his martial arts that a mundane martial artist can't do, he's still limited to doing things that a human body can do. Some elemental attacks and hadoken type abilities aren't too bad, but teleporting and etherealness are too much. Those aren't physical feats enhanced by ki...those are just flat out magical powers, and that's not what I want.

I think the monk needs to loose most of the built in abilities. Drop Tongue of Sun and Moon and Perfect Self. Increase the number of maneuvers and ki abilities a monk gets.Include Quivering Palm, Abundant Step, and Empty Body  as optional ki abilities instead of making them something every Monk gets. Truth be told, I'd be fine with the Monk also loosing most of its immunities. I don't think it's very fair nor interesting that the monk gets a bunch of immunities and none of the other classes get anything even remotely similar.

Give me a supernatural martial artist, not a guy who becomes magical because he's good at punching people.



I hope that Tongue of Sun and Moon and Perfect Self are changed to a gradual acquisition of languages/lore and higher ability scores, respectively. I do agree that Quivering Palm, Abundant Step, and Empty Body should be optional Ki abilities, and that all Ki abilities should be selectable and usable more often (if that's what you meant). Also, I think a Ki-powered upgrade of Vault, befitting a supernatural martial artist, would be a nice option in place of Abundant Step (or Warrior's Gale).
I assume the 20s in every attribute is meant to be a capstone ability - a completely broken ability given to a class right before the class retires. So, the final story can involve the monk jumping to the moon, or the Druid healing the EarthTree, or whatever. The big question is - do the other classes get the same thing? So far, I hear no, which makes me feel the monks designer thinks like me but doesn't have a lot of pull. So, if his ideas are popular, then more classes will get a capstone.



Yes! Give the PCs a good reason not to multiclass, like Pathfinder did.
One thing I want to see for the monk is different traditions.  The one we have now is the descendent of the 3e version where the monk became an outsider at level 20.  I'd love it if we could have a real Wuxia version, as well as at least one additional tradition.
There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

One thing I want to see for the monk is different traditions.  The one we have now is the descendent of the 3e version where the monk became an outsider at level 20.  I'd love it if we could have a real Wuxia version, as well as at least one additional tradition.



I believe they did the above version in 3e to try to avoid specific Asian-ghettoness.  The thing is, the Monk by its nature plays Wuxia, and I think it should embrace it!  The Celestial Saint monk that we've seen is awesome, but I agree with you, other pathways of power would be really, really desired. 

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

One thing I want to see for the monk is different traditions.  The one we have now is the descendent of the 3e version where the monk became an outsider at level 20.  I'd love it if we could have a real Wuxia version, as well as at least one additional tradition.



I believe they did the above version in 3e to try to avoid specific Asian-ghettoness.  The thing is, the Monk by its nature plays Wuxia, and I think it should embrace it!  The Celestial Saint monk that we've seen is awesome, but I agree with you, other pathways of power would be really, really desired. 



I demand the Infernal Monster discipline!  The monk dedicated to perfect, clarified RAGE must be a reality! Laughing
One thing I want to see for the monk is different traditions.  The one we have now is the descendent of the 3e version where the monk became an outsider at level 20.  I'd love it if we could have a real Wuxia version, as well as at least one additional tradition.



I believe they did the above version in 3e to try to avoid specific Asian-ghettoness.  The thing is, the Monk by its nature plays Wuxia, and I think it should embrace it!  The Celestial Saint monk that we've seen is awesome, but I agree with you, other pathways of power would be really, really desired. 



I demand the Infernal Monster discipline!  The monk dedicated to perfect, clarified RAGE must be a reality! 



I'd actually like that as a Prestige Class with both the Monk and the Barbarian as prerequisites.  I think it could be very interesting.

Before posting, why not ask yourself, What Would Wrecan Say?

IMAGE(http://images.onesite.com/community.wizards.com/user/marandahir/thumb/9ac5d970f3a59330212c73baffe4c556.png?v=90000)

A great man once said "If WotC put out boxes full of free money there'd still be people complaining about how it's folded." – Boraxe

Monks got two of the coolest maneuvers in this playtest packet. If more of the Fighter maneuvers were things that scaled like Hurricane Strike and Step of the Wind, I'd have a LOT fewer complaints. I want more maneuvers scaling similarly to those, but with their scaling going all the way up to the cap (which seems to be 6 dice right now, where the maneuvers currently scale only to 3 dice).
Perfect Self seems stupidly abrupt.  Getting a natural 20 in all scores would be great, if campaigns even last that long.  By the time one reaches level 20, provided that even happens, the seemingly math breaking difference is merely an afterthought, as the campaign is likely guaranteed to end shortly.  Congratulations!  You've become the ultimate human being!  You've successfully attained a wholeness of body, mind, and soul!  The game's over, now.  It's at best bragging rights that every monk gets, but nobody cares about, as it means nothing.

With the standard stat array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 with five increases to two ability scores over twenty levels, a +1 boost to a score due to class, and a +1 bonus to score for race(assuming you're not human), you see a 36 point boost in ability scores from that ability alone(provided I did my basic math correctly), which would be a significant boost over the course of 20 levels, but is utterly meaningless at level 20.  The ability might be a little more interesting if it were split among the levels, and if people weren't just going to boost their primary stats from the get-go anyway.  With a human, I'm easily rocking 34 points between my two primaries at first level.  There's little to be gained.
Perfect Self seems stupidly abrupt.  Getting a natural 20 in all scores would be great, if campaigns even last that long.  By the time one reaches level 20, provided that even happens, the seemingly math breaking difference is merely an afterthought, as the campaign is likely guaranteed to end shortly.  Congratulations!  You've become the ultimate human being!  You've successfully attained a wholeness of body, mind, and soul!  The game's over, now.  It's at best bragging rights that every monk gets, but nobody cares about, as it means nothing.

With the standard stat array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 with five increases to two ability scores over twenty levels, a +1 boost to a score due to class, and a +1 bonus to score for race(assuming you're not human), you see a 36 point boost in ability scores from that ability alone(provided I did my basic math correctly), which would be a significant boost over the course of 20 levels, but is utterly meaningless at level 20.  The ability might be a little more interesting if it were split among the levels, and if people weren't just going to boost their primary stats from the get-go anyway.  With a human, I'm easily rocking 34 points between my two primaries at first level.  There's little to be gained.



+1


Not to mention that it makes your stat bumps that come with level feel completely pointless.

At least in PF, capstone abilities are more about dreams than about mechanics. They're sort of there to give people something to dream about. More savvy players generally recognize that things that happen at level 20 aren't really that relevant, especially in PF which is only nominally a 20-level game (it doesn't fix 3.5's math and structural issues nearly well enough to be a truly 20-level game), but there are a lot of players who are a little less wise to what's going on who are inspired by them. One of the only things I've heard from any of the people I play with is that it's "so cool" that the monk gets its capstone ability in the new playtest.

You can argue whether or not things like that should be in the game, but I think they have a role.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
Monks got two of the coolest maneuvers in this playtest packet. If more of the Fighter maneuvers were things that scaled like Hurricane Strike and Step of the Wind, I'd have a LOT fewer complaints. I want more maneuvers scaling similarly to those, but with their scaling going all the way up to the cap (which seems to be 6 dice right now, where the maneuvers currently scale only to 3 dice).

That works.

Getting manuvers that upgrade with more dice spent would help counter the fact that you only get 5 of them.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.