D&D Next: Not even once.

After spending a few hours going over the latest packet and trying to convince my group to give it another go I have come upon the realization that...D&D 5th Edition is the most boring edition to date. Something drastic has to be done in between this packet and the next packet. I just can't get enough players interested in playtesting this anymore =(
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
I 100% agree. However- LordofKhyber be prepared for the hate about to be piled on you.
Agree totally, neither one thing or the other and doing all of them badly. Sadly this has turned into DnD Camel edition (based on the joke that a camel is a racehorse designed by comittee).
Perhaps if you could say WHY you find it boring, and what would make it unboring, you might be listened to and your concerns might be addressed.

Just going "FIX IT AHHHHH" pretty much guarantees that they won't fix it, because they have no idea how.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
While there are some things I don't like about this latest packet (charge as a feat? I mean, I am fine with the mechanics of the feat, but the name makes it sound like you can't charge without the feat), for the most part it is my favorite edition of D&D to date. I really hope that the final product looks something like a cleaned up version of this (with fewer dead levels).
Perhaps if you could say WHY you find it boring, and what would make it unboring, you might be listened to and your concerns might be addressed.

Just going "FIX IT AHHHHH" pretty much guarantees that they won't fix it, because they have no idea how.



We've been telling them for months and it isn't sinking in so I see no reason for me to repeat what has been said many times before. This fails as both a high RP system (too mechanical) and also as a solid balanced tactical game (too bland, not enough options).
I find it to be some of the most fun I've had in D&D. The fast and loose playstyle really helps me as a DM because I don't feel boxed in by a ton of mechanics which makes me feel like I have to look everything up. I think this skill change goes a long way towards fixing the desparity between rogues and other classes, as well as making skills more fun in general. Dead levels prevent option overload and make getting new abilities feel more important. I could go on...all in all it's shaping up to be a pretty interesting game to me.
My two copper.
Perhaps if you could say WHY you find it boring, and what would make it unboring, you might be listened to and your concerns might be addressed.

Just going "FIX IT AHHHHH" pretty much guarantees that they won't fix it, because they have no idea how.



...we've been doing this for months and have been getting drowned out by the louder and more extreme opinions.
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
The more I read and compare, the harder I'm finding it to justify running with the playtest as it develops, as opposed to just branching off of the PlaytestPacket2 stuff that we all generally liked.  Domains and Traditions have been cleaned up since then, and Rogues have gotten some actual options, and Skills have gone back to Packet1's "not tied to specific ability scores" thing, but... there's not a lot else that we actually like more than that second packet.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
The more I read and compare, the harder I'm finding it to justify running with the playtest as it develops, as opposed to just branching off of the PlaytestPacket2 stuff that we all generally liked.  Domains and Traditions have been cleaned up since then, and Rogues have gotten some actual options, and Skills have gone back to Packet1's "not tied to specific ability scores" thing, but... there's not a lot else that we actually like more than that second packet.


Because they want you to test this packet?
My two copper.
I 100% agree. However- LordofKhyber be prepared for the hate about to be piled on you.



Agree- there's not much hope this will ever turn into something I or my group will be interested in.


From all the comments I'm reading, I'm reaching to the conclusion this might end as 4E Commercial Failure all over again?

So far I'm KINDA liking the playtest... however it feels just like a bunch of homebrew rules you could apply to 4E to make it feel more "Old School". You can just rip some rules out of the How To Play PDF, paste them on the 4e Player's Handbook, and they would play just right :/ 
From all the comments I'm reading, I'm reaching to the conclusion this might end as 4E Commercial Failure all over again?

So far I'm KINDA liking the playtest... however it feels just like a bunch of homebrew rules you could apply to 4E to make it feel more "Old School". You can just rip some rules out of the How To Play PDF, paste them on the 4e Player's Handbook, and they would play just right :/ 


Almost... unfinished? Like a product in testing?
A few guidelines for using the internet: 1. Mentally add "In my opinion" to the end of basically anything someone else says. Of course it's their opinion, they don't need to let you know. You're pretty smart. 2. Assume everyone means everything in the best manner they could mean it. Save yourself some stress and give people the benefit of the doubt. We'll all be happier if we type less emoticons. 3. Don't try to read people's minds. Sometimes people mean exactly what they say. You probably don't know them any better than they know themselves. 4. Let grammar slide. If you understood what they meant, you're good. It's better for your health. 5. Breath. It's just a dumb game.
From all the comments I'm reading, I'm reaching to the conclusion this might end as 4E Commercial Failure all over again?

So far I'm KINDA liking the playtest... however it feels just like a bunch of homebrew rules you could apply to 4E to make it feel more "Old School". You can just rip some rules out of the How To Play PDF, paste them on the 4e Player's Handbook, and they would play just right :/ 


Almost... unfinished? Like a product in testing?




Almost like a playtest where the people doing the testing are continually being ignored by the head company?

I mean even Paizo wasn't THIS brazen when it came to ignoring their playtesters. 
Khyber is a dark and dangerous place, full of flame and smoke, where ever stranger things lie dormant.
Let me be very, very clear at this:

You are not "people"
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
From all the comments I'm reading, I'm reaching to the conclusion this might end as 4E Commercial Failure all over again?

So far I'm KINDA liking the playtest... however it feels just like a bunch of homebrew rules you could apply to 4E to make it feel more "Old School". You can just rip some rules out of the How To Play PDF, paste them on the 4e Player's Handbook, and they would play just right :/ 



You're seeing it as a mod to 4E? Weird. I don't see any 4E at all in D&DN.

It's pretty much 3rd edition with some revisions.
I dunno. I see a large amount of fixes to issue that were actually...you know...issues.

Rogues can do good damage again
Rogues do not DOMINATE the skill market, they are just a bit ahead of the curve
Monster math has changed, can tell if it's "fixed" until I play however
Fighter was brought back in line with other classes, though perhaps a little too backwards
Vancian magic was made a little more flexible
Clerics were made a bit more interesting than before
At-Wills took a step back towards being more flexible

That's just off the top of my head.

They are fixing plenty, it's just not what some people are looking for.
My two copper.
I dunno. I see a large amount of fixes to issue that were actually...you know...issues.

Rogues can do good damage again
Rogues do not DOMINATE the skill market, they are just a bit ahead of the curve
Monster math has changed, can tell if it's "fixed" until I play however
Fighter was brought back in line with other classes, though perhaps a little too backwards
Vancian magic was made a little more flexible
Clerics were made a bit more interesting than before
At-Wills took a step back towards being more flexible

That's just off the top of my head.

They are fixing plenty, it's just not what some people are looking for.



Every step of the way is towards making casters even more flexible, and giving mundanes even fewer options. The changes in this playtest is basically the exact opposite of where they needed to be going to make the game remotely desirable for me.
How did fighter/rogue/monk get less options? If you don't mind me asking.
My two copper.
How did fighter/rogue/monk get less options? If you don't mind me asking.




Look at the maneuver list. Fighters are down to 11 maneuvers total to pick from. Monks have less. Rogues may have picked up some options, but if they did it's not many.

When you consider there are literally 0 new options for any martial class past level 10, just preselected bonuses and a bunch of dead levels, it's even worse because while actual options haven't decreased, relative options have (because the casters are still getting at minimum one spell known each level)
How did fighter/rogue/monk get less options? If you don't mind me asking.




Look at the maneuver list. Fighters are down to 11 maneuvers total to pick from. Monks have less. Rogues may have picked up some options, but if they did it's not many.

When you consider there are literally 0 new options for any martial class past level 10, just preselected bonuses and a bunch of dead levels, it's even worse because while actual options haven't decreased, relative options have (because the casters are still getting at minimum one spell known each level)


Aye, I will agree with you that the past level 10 part is an issue. MM mentioned on his twitter that the legacy system was going to help with this some, but also that they might grant non casters more feats beyond 10.
My two copper.
How did fighter/rogue/monk get less options? If you don't mind me asking.




Look at the maneuver list. Fighters are down to 11 maneuvers total to pick from. Monks have less. Rogues may have picked up some options, but if they did it's not many.

When you consider there are literally 0 new options for any martial class past level 10, just preselected bonuses and a bunch of dead levels, it's even worse because while actual options haven't decreased, relative options have (because the casters are still getting at minimum one spell known each level)


Aye, I will agree with you that the past level 10 part is an issue. MM mentioned on his twitter that the legacy system was going to help with this some, but also that they might grant non casters more feats beyond 10.



Oh joy, more feats for non-casters. That will fix it!
Whoa bro, that was just a tweet. Probably some things that have been rolling around the office, nothing concrete or probably even discussed about. Make it an issue, bring it up, but don't sling mud. It's useless feedback :P
My two copper.
Sadly, "getting the core down" doesn't mean getting 5 levels playable, it means getting 1-20 THE WHOLE DANG THING down. And if all the hoopla going on about spellcaster supremacy being back is a thing to go off of, I think it's safe to say they've got to take care of a few more things in the boring old core.
Whoa bro, that was just a tweet. Probably some things that have been rolling around the office, nothing concrete or probably even discussed about. Make it an issue, bring it up, but don't sling mud. It's useless feedback :P



The fact that that even crossed Mearls' mind as a possible solution is indicative of his complete inability to comprehend the issue, much less solve it. Seriously, he brought up the idea of giving martial characters extra feats earlier in the playtest as well. He keeps coming back to this idea like it was ever a good idea in the first place, rather than just acknowledging it is stupid and shortsighted and working on actual solutions.
Whoa bro, that was just a tweet. Probably some things that have been rolling around the office, nothing concrete or probably even discussed about. Make it an issue, bring it up, but don't sling mud. It's useless feedback :P



The fact that that even crossed Mearls' mind as a possible solution is indicative of his complete inability to comprehend the issue, much less solve it. Seriously, he brought up the idea of giving martial characters extra feats earlier in the playtest as well. He keeps coming back to this idea like it was ever a good idea in the first place, rather than just acknowledging it is stupid and shortsighted and working on actual solutions.


To be fair, no one saw XD coming really and it's not too late for more/more interesting maneuvers to happen. I just see iterative stuff happening. Like Jenks said, they seem to be reacting to feedback while adding new things for us to test. I wouldn't get emotional about it.
A few guidelines for using the internet: 1. Mentally add "In my opinion" to the end of basically anything someone else says. Of course it's their opinion, they don't need to let you know. You're pretty smart. 2. Assume everyone means everything in the best manner they could mean it. Save yourself some stress and give people the benefit of the doubt. We'll all be happier if we type less emoticons. 3. Don't try to read people's minds. Sometimes people mean exactly what they say. You probably don't know them any better than they know themselves. 4. Let grammar slide. If you understood what they meant, you're good. It's better for your health. 5. Breath. It's just a dumb game.
And if all the hoopla going on about spellcaster supremacy being back is a thing to go off of, I think it's safe to say they've got to take care of a few more things in the boring old core.



Caster supremacy? Martial classes do so much more damage than spellcasters it isn't even funny. But sadly, with only 5 maneuvers at level 10 and none after that, "HULK SMASH!" is about all that fighters can do. They're overpowered but boring.
And if all the hoopla going on about spellcaster supremacy being back is a thing to go off of, I think it's safe to say they've got to take care of a few more things in the boring old core.



Caster supremacy? Martial classes do so much more damage than spellcasters it isn't even funny. But sadly, with only 5 maneuvers at level 10 and none after that, "HULK SMASH!" is about all that fighters can do. They're overpowered but boring.



Save or Die/Suck still trumps weapon damage. Weapon damage is just the janitors cleaning up the mess after its over.
...whatever
Almost like a playtest where the people doing the testing are continually being ignored by the head company?

I mean even Paizo wasn't THIS brazen when it came to ignoring their playtesters. 


Oh yes they were.  Right now, I'm not sure which is worse, Wizards or Paizo in lack of realizing what's fun for their customers.


Save or Die/Suck still trumps weapon damage. Weapon damage is just the janitors cleaning up the mess after its over.



There are not really any save or die/suck spells. Those few spells that are anything like the old save-or spells either a) don't make a target suck, b) require multiple failed saves for the effect to truly happen, or b) just deal a flat amount of damage that is not any higher than a martial character's DPR...




Save or Die/Suck still trumps weapon damage. Weapon damage is just the janitors cleaning up the mess after its over.



There are not really any save or die/suck spells. Those few spells that are anything like the old save-or spells either a) don't make a target suck, b) require multiple failed saves for the effect to truly happen, or b) just deal a flat amount of damage that is not any higher than a martial character's DPR...




Hold Person/Monster

Also, have you compared how spell DCs scale compared to how saving throws (don't)scale?

...whatever
From all the comments I'm reading, I'm reaching to the conclusion this might end as 4E Commercial Failure all over again?

So far I'm KINDA liking the playtest... however it feels just like a bunch of homebrew rules you could apply to 4E to make it feel more "Old School". You can just rip some rules out of the How To Play PDF, paste them on the 4e Player's Handbook, and they would play just right :/ 



You're seeing it as a mod to 4E? Weird. I don't see any 4E at all in D&DN.

It's pretty much 3rd edition with some revisions.



A great deal of people from all camps saw a lot of whatever edition they didn't like in the previous playtest packet, and saw almost nothing of what they wanted. Honestly, I don't know what to call it, but it doesn't look like 3.5 or Pathfinder. Those systems are garbage compared to what they've created with this new packet.

Now, about all this buzz about spellcaster supremacy, I'm just not seeing it. Granted I haven't had a chance to actually test it, but right off hand, I'm not seeing anything anywhere near as potent as what was in 3e or Pathfinder.
And if all the hoopla going on about spellcaster supremacy being back is a thing to go off of, I think it's safe to say they've got to take care of a few more things in the boring old core.



Caster supremacy? Martial classes do so much more damage than spellcasters it isn't even funny. But sadly, with only 5 maneuvers at level 10 and none after that, "HULK SMASH!" is about all that fighters can do. They're overpowered but boring.


What do you think is better?

A chance of doing 100 points of damage against a 200HP monster?  Or an insta-kill ability that doesn't even require a 'hit' roll to make?
And if all the hoopla going on about spellcaster supremacy being back is a thing to go off of, I think it's safe to say they've got to take care of a few more things in the boring old core.



Caster supremacy? Martial classes do so much more damage than spellcasters it isn't even funny. But sadly, with only 5 maneuvers at level 10 and none after that, "HULK SMASH!" is about all that fighters can do. They're overpowered but boring.



Save or Die/Suck still trumps weapon damage. Weapon damage is just the janitors cleaning up the mess after its over.


See, this argument never really had any weight with me. If Save or Die spells bother you so much, disallow them. I hate the teleport spells because I feel it ruins some of my adventures, so I dissalow it. But I wouldn't rally to take the spell away from people who would want to use it. Some people have a lot of fun with teleport.

It's really easy to say, "You can't take save or die spells". 

Also, trap the soul is the only real Save or Die spell on the list. Finger of death and Power Word Kill require an HP amount to auto kill, which is pretty low (40 and 50 respectively.) A fighter can easily do this much damage in a couple of turns at the levels in which the Wizard gets these spells. Flesh to stone requires 1 min of concentration, so on solos I suppose it could be considered a SoD, but it still requires 2 saves and in a battle against more than one or two enemies the wizard is out of commision for the entire fight. With the exception of trap the soul, the current SoD spells are hardly broken. 
My two copper.
Power word kill also requires the true name of a target to be really effective, which I think is freaking awesome.

Hold Person/Monster



Even in 3.5/Pathfinder the hold spells offered saves every round, sometimes multiple saves in one round, depending on which monsters were where. It's not uncommon for a monster to get 3-4 saves in a round against something like that at really high levels. It's hardly a foolproof ability. Never mind all of the ways in which that can be removed or flat-out prevented.
The lack of options for ALL characters (Wizard included) in both play and in Character Creation (seriously, FOUR feats???!!?!), just doesn't make this game seem like a very fun thing.  My favorite thing about any edition is character building (especially in 3xE and 4E), because I never feel like I am creating the same character twice.  But as of right now, DDN just doesn't meet that baseline need for me.  Heck, even the dreaded 3E fighter got a crapton of feats to choose.  Sure, it was all pretty meaningless in the end, but the DDN fighter has even less choice, which I didn't think was actually possible.

I just don't see anything that will make me drop 4E or Pathfinder (I will play PF, but never DM it).
CORE MORE, NOT CORE BORE!

What do you think is better?

A chance of doing 100 points of damage against a 200HP monster?  Or an insta-kill ability that doesn't even require a 'hit' roll to make?



Spells don't just automatically work. Either they require an attack roll, allow a saving throw, or can only be used on targets with a certain number of hp. Given the choice between a daily save or die and an at-will ability that can kill the monster in 2 hits, I'd gladly choose the latter.
That said, my group is having a lot of fun with it. Even with all the change there hasn't been a packet we have used that has turned us away from it yet. More players keep joining my game. I am getting to a point where I don't know what I will do if it keeps up.

Just know that while some of you dislike it, there are some of us that are really enjoying it.

Also remeber Mearls has said they playtest in extremes, with the last packet being extreme caster nerfing. Take that into consideration with all the magical domininance thing. They are trying to find a balance and the fact they are still looking into it means they are listening to both sides.
The lack of options for ALL characters (Wizard included) in both play and in Character Creation (seriously, FOUR feats???!!?!), just doesn't make this game seem like a very fun thing.  My favorite thing about any edition is character building (especially in 3xE and 4E), because I never feel like I am creating the same character twice.  But as of right now, DDN just doesn't meet that baseline need for me.  Heck, even the dreaded 3E fighter got a crapton of feats to choose.  Sure, it was all pretty meaningless in the end, but the DDN fighter has even less choice, which I didn't think was actually possible.

I just don't see anything that will make me drop 4E or Pathfinder (I will play PF, but never DM it).



I hear you. The tiny number of choices involved in character creation is one of my biggest complaints with Next so far. You only ever get four skills, and they're chosen by your background. You only ever get four feats, and their determined by your specialty. It's like they want everyone to take one of these few pre-made packages and not even customize their character. Every blacksmith has the same skills. Every Defender has the same feats. The one thing that really kept me playing 3.x over the years, despite all of its flaws, was all of the options in character creation. Next seems to be designed to make characters as basic and cookie-cutter as possible.
The lack of options for ALL characters (Wizard included) in both play and in Character Creation (seriously, FOUR feats???!!?!), just doesn't make this game seem like a very fun thing.  My favorite thing about any edition is character building (especially in 3xE and 4E), because I never feel like I am creating the same character twice.  But as of right now, DDN just doesn't meet that baseline need for me.  Heck, even the dreaded 3E fighter got a crapton of feats to choose.  Sure, it was all pretty meaningless in the end, but the DDN fighter has even less choice, which I didn't think was actually possible.

I just don't see anything that will make me drop 4E or Pathfinder (I will play PF, but never DM it).



I hear you. The tiny number of choices involved in character creation is one of my biggest complaints with Next so far. You only ever get four skills, and they're chosen by your background. You only ever get four feats, and their determined by your specialty. It's like they want everyone to take one of these few pre-made packages and not even customize their character. Every blacksmith has the same skills. Every Defender has the same feats. The one thing that really kept me playing 3.x over the years, despite all of its flaws, was all of the options in character creation. Next seems to be designed to make characters as basic and cookie-cutter as possible.



I honestly feel like there's a lot of customization in this edition, we just don't have a bulk of the options yet.
My two copper.



Save or Die/Suck still trumps weapon damage. Weapon damage is just the janitors cleaning up the mess after its over.

 

There are not really any save or die/suck spells. Those few spells that are anything like the old save-or spells either a) don't make a target suck, b) require multiple failed saves for the effect to truly happen, or b) just deal a flat amount of damage that is not any higher than a martial character's DPR...




 
Hold Person/Monster

Also, have you compared how spell DCs scale compared to how saving throws (don't)scale?



Do you really think that a spell that takes up a wizard's concentration, doesn't permanently remove the foe from a fight, deals no damage or permanent effects, and gives a foe a save every round in any way, shape, or form invalidates what a fighter can do? Really!?

And yes, I have looked at how things scale. At first I was bothered. Then I saw that PCs can take a feat that allows them to gain advantage on any saving throw vs. a spell as a reaction, and that a number of monsters are immune to spells below certain levels and gain advantage to all saves vs. spells. At that point in time I stopped being bothered. 

Wizards are quite nice in this edition. They do not, however, in any way, shape, or form overshadow anybody else. Some people might subjectively feel that they get cooler effects. I subjectively feel that those people should probably play wizards. I think that the type of effects martial characters get both a) feel martial and b) feel cool. Most importantly, the numbers of everything seem balanced. There are a few broken elements here or there, but there is by no means the systemically broken foundations found in 3e.