When do we recharge damage dice?

I'm confused as to when the damage dice get recharged.  Reading the class pdf it seems to imply that your damage dice get recharged every turn.  Specifically it says "When you spend a martial damage die, you cannot use it again on the same turn."  However many of the Maneuvers, like Protect or Deflect Missles, dont take place on your turn. So if you spend a damage die to Protect do you get it back for the next Monsters attack?  Could a level 20 defender spend all 6d6 to protect one of his allies on every enemy turn?
I think it recharges every turn, at least according to the rules. 
They state that "You must be able to take an action" to use the dice, so if you're not standing close enough to cover another character with your shield, or in position to take an attack of opportunity, the dice can't be spent.
Seems pretty powerful, but not broken.
Hmm - two packets ago they recharged at the start of the turn; last packet they recharged at the end of the turn.  This packet - so far as I have seen so far - did not specify.

Either it's buried in there and I missed it in a quick read, or it's an oversight.

Until I see otherwise, I will have them recharge at the end of the turn as that was the way I always felt they should work.

However - it is possible that they are supposed to recharge after every turn not once per round. 

Carl
I think it recharges every turn, at least according to the rules. 
They state that "You must be able to take an action" to use the dice, so if you're not standing close enough to cover another character with your shield, or in position to take an attack of opportunity, the dice can't be spent.
Seems pretty powerful, but not broken.


Not only that, you need to use a reaction. You can't take actions when it's not your turn, which means you can't use the dice when it's not your turn, unless you use a reaction to do so.
It looks like at the begining of each turn.  Not round this time.
 
The last line of each class' description of Martial Damage Dice just says "When you spend a martial damage die, you cannot use it again on the same turn."
Could it be the beginning of each of your turns?

Since it says "again on the same turn", wouldn't that imply you have to wait until next turn?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
Strange. I'd think end of the turn as that'd allow the reactions to happen as opposed to being 'predicted' reactions which is a bit silly.
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
CarlT pointed out in my other thread that you are only allowed to take one reaction per round (its in the How to Play pdf).  So it looks like you could use all your martial damage dice when you take your reaction (assuming its not on your turn) but you can only do that once per round. 

 
Current RAW is every turn, but RAI is almost definitely round.  The Parry description implies that you might not have access to your Martial Damage Dice.  If they recharge every turn, there's no way for you to not have access to them while taking your once-per-round reaction.  It'll likely be fixed by the next packet.
Current RAW is every turn, but RAI is almost definitely round.  The Parry description implies that you might not have access to your Martial Damage Dice.  If they recharge every turn, there's no way for you to not have access to them while taking your once-per-round reaction.  It'll likely be fixed by the next packet.




I dont know.  There was a legends and lore where Merls was saying that he wanted the fighter to not have to keep track of their dice pool.  He specifically mentioned being able to use all your dice for attack and parry.
I am away from my books, but the Maneuvers PDF pg. 01  used to say that the ED refreshed at the end of your turn, it was removed ?
I am away from my books, but the Maneuvers PDF pg. 01  used to say that the ED refreshed at the end of your turn, it was removed ?




It was removed.  The tweet above seems to clear some stuff up though. 
Ok thanks. 
Well that goes directly against what Mike Mearls claimed to want to do for the next packet.
Hmm...so if I'm interpreting it correctly, you have to save dice if you want to have them for a parry?

It really worked better the other way: use as many dice as you want to parry, but then you don't have them to attack with on your turn.
I'm glad they cleared it up, thanks for providing the link to that answer, yellerSumner.  Like everyone else, I was very confused about it when I read through the packet.  It never gives a direct answer, and the part that talks about using the dice each turn seems to contradict the section on parry that says you might not have all your dice.

As far as refreshing at start vs end of turn, I actually prefer the start.  The way I see it is like this: on your turn, you decide to go offensive (use all your dice) or defensive (keep all your dice) or balanced (use some of your dice).  That choice then determines how you will be for the round, and on your next turn you switch to a different tactic if you desire.


As far as refreshing at start vs end of turn, I actually prefer the start.  The way I see it is like this: on your turn, you decide to go offensive (use all your dice) or defensive (keep all your dice) or balanced (use some of your dice).  That choice then determines how you will be for the round, and on your next turn you switch to a different tactic if you desire.



The problem is that if you save your dice and then don't get attacked, they're wasted completely.  If your decision point comes when you get attacked, you're still choosing between offensive (save your dice), defensive (use your dice) or balanced (use some dice) but you can be reasonably confident that one way or another you're going to be able to use your resources for SOMETHING, because it's very likely you'll make an attack on your turn.

As far as refreshing at start vs end of turn, I actually prefer the start.  The way I see it is like this: on your turn, you decide to go offensive (use all your dice) or defensive (keep all your dice) or balanced (use some of your dice).  That choice then determines how you will be for the round, and on your next turn you switch to a different tactic if you desire.



The problem is that if you save your dice and then don't get attacked, they're wasted completely.  If your decision point comes when you get attacked, you're still choosing between offensive (save your dice), defensive (use your dice) or balanced (use some dice) but you can be reasonably confident that one way or another you're going to be able to use your resources for SOMETHING, because it's very likely you'll make an attack on your turn.

Sure but how often are you going to think you will get attacked but then not actually end up getting attacked?  Unless your DM is being deliberately mean, not often in my experience. 
And this is no different than any other defensive action.  You might use the dodge action because you are very injured; if you don't get attacked would you cry foul?  You might cast a defensive spell (an even more precious resource); if you don't get attacked would you cry foul?


As far as refreshing at start vs end of turn, I actually prefer the start.  The way I see it is like this: on your turn, you decide to go offensive (use all your dice) or defensive (keep all your dice) or balanced (use some of your dice).  That choice then determines how you will be for the round, and on your next turn you switch to a different tactic if you desire.



The problem is that if you save your dice and then don't get attacked, they're wasted completely.  If your decision point comes when you get attacked, you're still choosing between offensive (save your dice), defensive (use your dice) or balanced (use some dice) but you can be reasonably confident that one way or another you're going to be able to use your resources for SOMETHING, because it's very likely you'll make an attack on your turn.

Yes, they'll occasionally be wasted.  All that means, though, is that fighters will actually have to play intelligently.  Rather than flying on auto-pilot (using Parry when necessary and putting any leftover dice towards damage every single round) they'll have to make a decision each time their turn comes up.  It may be less powerful, but it's more engaging.  Players will feel rewarded when they make the right choices.
Sure but how often are you going to think you will get attacked but then not actually end up getting attacked?  Unless your DM is being deliberately mean, not often in my experience. 
And this is no different than any other defensive action.  You might use the dodge action because you are very injured; if you don't get attacked would you cry foul?  You might cast a defensive spell (an even more precious resource); if you don't get attacked would you cry foul?



It's not about balance or numbers, it's about psychology.  Rolling martial dice is fun.  If the game is set up in such a way that I might have to choose to not roll them (or spend them in some other way that gives me a concrete benefit per die used up), that's less fun than a system that lets me make essentially the same decision at a different time-point but roll more dice.  The actual numerical impact between the two different schemes is probably pretty minimal.

Edit:  Ignore that last part, I misread the post.
I'd add that fighters have plenty of options for fun and intelligent play without having to decide whether to "hold" dice back for a potential parry. Hate it in White Wolf's games, hate it here. The combat maneuvers allow them to again do the battlefield control actions they could 2 packets ago (which I'm very thankful for). I can bull rush, or shove away (more my style), or disarm, or trip--and since I'm a fighter with a maneuver I don't have to waste my action doing nothing but my maneuver. Every turn I can make interesting choices (and those were merely a few). The issue isn't one of intelligent tactical play, it is one of pre-planning. Some people want to play simple fighters that aren't in need of pre-planning, and some of us would like to play intelligent battlefield control fighters who also aren't in need of defensive pre-planning of that kind.
I will try this on Sunday with my group. My gut feeling is that "beginning of turn" might elicit some grumbles, and then we'll house-rule and do "end of turn", and see how combat feels either way. I'll give feedback. This needs to be play-tested to be sure.
 
Thank you for posting that tweet and clearing this up for everyone! It was a stumbling block in the lastest packet for my group!
You're welcome everyone.
My playtest duties have been fulfilled.
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
It shifts where the meat of the tactics lies.

When they refresh at the end you have the benefit of using parry anytime it gets dangerous. So when you dont' get attacked, you are more deadly! (tactics is more in the monsters court than the players, in the sense that if a monster leaves the player alone, that player is definitely going to be deadly)

When they refresh at the beginning, if you 'miss' you have them ALL for parry, which is interesting.  Either way, players can use tactics to intentionally be defensive or to do damage. (tactics is more in the players court to decide if they want to be more deadly or not)
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
However, a player can choose with more knowledge when it refreshes at the end. If hit, they have a choice to either soak damage or hold those dice to attempt to hit harder, at the cost of definitely taking more damage.

I like what you pointed about the effect it has on the monster--which kind of gives the fighter that "defender" effect. "You had better hit me, or I will hit you *hard*!"

I think you also can make a more informed choice about how many dice to use for defense if it refreshes at the end. You spend what you need, and then have all the rest to attack with.

There is still *some* speculative planning, as you have to decide if and how much you want to soak, based on how much you want for your attack, but I find it's an easier choice and doesn't require as much mental book-keeping.

I definitely agree that at the end becomes an easier choice. I find the book-keeping to be the same for me.

We're playing it as refreshing at the beginning for this packet. Because monsters rarely hit the fighters, it really doesn't come into play very often. And with that same fact, refreshing at the beginning may not really be 'fair' as parry will basically never be the option to choose until near death or something.

It would be interesting to allow it to be player choice upon gaining the dice, but I think for simplicity it is better if the system 'decides' and then put in a module/caveat that the player can choose if the DM allows.

 
Currently running a playtest, weekly, online D&D Next Session using a virtual table system called roll20.
technically they dont recharge because you odnt use them up. they just cant be used twice in the same turn
Beh, I really wish this was more clear cut.  Just to muddy the waters a bit Mearls posted this tweet ...

twitter.com/mikemearls/status/2847537704...




@mikemearls Can all martial dice be used on my turn to deal dmg and then again on a reaction? It says per turn (not per round) in the pkt.





@FluxFrog yes, you get them all on your reaction




 So now we have conflicting tweets about when/how you get to use your damage dice.

It is very clear cut. Trevor is a great guy, but he is not a D&DN designer. He is a WoTC employee. His opinion on the intent of a rule is no different than the opinion of any other reader or playtester, and he is not privy to the actual design process. Mike is the LEAD D&DN designer. He LEADS the actual design process. Mike spoke about wanting to do this in a L&L article. Now Mike has explicitly tweated that the current rules are working as intended. You get your dice EACH turn. That is the intent. And that is clear cut. 

Thanks you for pointing all of that out, Cyber-Dave (though it was delivered with a bit of an unnecessary attitude).
It did appear at the time, that Mike Mearls agreed with Trevor.
Here is the full Twitter conversation below.

17 Dec OregonPinkRoseOregonPinkRose

When exactly do martial dmg dice refresh? Can you use your d6 over and over to parry? Or just once a turn?







Not to be nit-picky but you don't parry on your turn. Or are you saying I can parry on every monster's turn?





You only have one reaction per round, remember.





Yeah, your dice refresh at the beginning of your turn and you only get one reaction per round.






Thanks for the answers. This us why I love D&D. The closeness of the community to the developers.




Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
PinkRose, your original question was ambigous because you gave a X or Y situation where X was impossible since you cannot use your d6 over and over to parry as a Reaction. Mike's answer was still correct in saying Martial Damage Dice is once per turn. Martial Damage Dice is usable once per turn and you can thus use them on your turn and on other creature's turn to parry. Its Trevor who implied that Martial Damage Dice refreshed at the begining of your turn whie the Packet doesn't say so. 

The Packet says this:  

Once per turn,... you can add your martial damage.


When you spend a martial damage die, you cannot use it again on the same turn.

Using those two quotes, it's pretty clear.
Thanks, Plaguescarred.
Why then is it so confusing for a lot of people as evidenced by the many threads?
I guess because it doesn't specifically say when to recharge them, and that was what we were used to from previous packets, yes?
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"

Attitude? I didn't think my post had any... but then many people say that my writing often seems to contain some artifact that comes across as attitude, and I have not narrowed down exactly what that is as of yet, so I believe that it was there. It was not intended though.

In any case, I think that it is "confusing" because people have a hard time dealing with change. The actual rules are quite clear. But, people are used to the way it worked in the last few playtest packets, and so they are having a hard time adjusting. 

In any case, while you gain your martial damage dice every turn, you can still only parry once per round (not turn). While your dice are a turn based resource, a parry requires a reaction. Reactions are a round based resource. So, despite your dice being usable in full every turn, you can still only parry once a round. That is what Mike was saying with that tweet. 

I felt that by using CAPS, you were belittling. Take that as constructive criticism, I guess.
That aside, thank you for the insight. It does make sense.
I like the idea of not keeping track of dice between a players turn. I'm not sure about having all the dice available all the time at higher levels, but I have to see that in action.
Again, thank you for your input and your contributions to the community.
Viva La "what ever version of D&D you are playing right now!"
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