Passive Cleric of the Raven Queen

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Recently read divine power and really liked the idea of the shielding cleric. Buffing and debuffing and healing and reviving, etc. I really wanted to try this out but I have next to no idea how what constitutes a good support ability.

I was thinking of starting out with.


Level 1

Using no armor and or weapons besides a walking stick (quarterstaff) and clothes maybe a robe.

Race: probably human

Trained in Religeon (automatic), Diplomacy, Heal, History, Insight

At will: Astral Seal, Sacred Flame, ( not sure what 3rd at-will power would be useful)
Encounter: Bane or Exacting Utterance or a divine channeling power that might be good in a support sense.
Daily: Font of Tears

Feats: Pacifist Healer and Combat Medic or Human Perserverance

Level 2 

I would take

Life Transference (mostly for flavor that you can't simply create life from nothing) and Return from Death's Door (auto pass a death saving throw once per day? I'm sold!)

Paragon path of Messenger of Peace

Epic path of Saint 
Friendly warning, the pacifist cleric is not well thought of on these boards.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
If you insist on going with cloth armor only at least take the unarmored agility feat at some point. Unconditional +2 AC is a good feat for anyone, and it fits your flavor just fine.

EDIT: Bear in mind that even with that your AC is going to be downright pathetic. Only characters with a primary or secondary dex/int should generally even consider going without heavy armor, and clerics dump both dex and int.
If you insist on going with cloth armor only at least take the unarmored agility feat at some point. Unconditional +2 AC is a good feat for anyone, and it fits your flavor just fine. 



Mechanically wear chain (or scale) and then refluff it as cloth/divine protection.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Simply put: It's a very bad idea. While the concept of a Pacifist Cleric is nice and all, mechanically, it's just NOT worth making/playing one. Play a regular cleric, with BCL, and you'll have decent survivability, heals/buffs/etc, and be decent in terms of power usage as well. Warpriest is another option.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
If you insist on going with cloth armor only at least take the unarmored agility feat at some point. Unconditional +2 AC is a good feat for anyone, and it fits your flavor just fine. 



Mechanically wear chain (or scale) and then refluff it as cloth/divine protection.



Yes, that is a far superior option. As I said (edited) above, your AC is going to be pathetic without it. 
I can check with my DM on this but then how does an armor check penalty make sense?
Also what book is unarmored agility in? My experience with 4e was a few one shots but thats about it.
Your cloth robe gets trapped around your feet, making it harder for you to move fast and your long sleeves make making dextrous checks difficult.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
If you insist on going with cloth armor only at least take the unarmored agility feat at some point. Unconditional +2 AC is a good feat for anyone, and it fits your flavor just fine. 



Mechanically wear chain (or scale) and then refluff it as cloth/divine protection.



I can check with my DM on this but then how does an armor check penalty make sense?
Also what book is unarmored agility in? My experience with 4e was a few one shots but thats about it.



Player's Handbook 3
Okay that's solved. How can I justify being a cleric of a death godess and being a messenger of peace?

If that makes sense at all.

Afterall death isn't usually associated with peace. 
Okay that's solved. How can I justify being a cleric of a death godess and being a messenger of peace?

If that makes sense at all. 



Eternal Peace?

It depends on how the death goddess functions. Is she the way onto the next journey, is she trying to actively recruit, or is she simply filling a list handed to her by someone else?

A death goddess might normally have a very bad reputation. You might be concerned about pointing out the true goals of your mistress, which are not hostile. She's not the goddess of war as an example, so she could be concerned about all the unnecessary(as opposed to necessary) deaths happening from it.
The final sleep, absolute calm, the messenger of entropy?
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
So for example the raven queen represents natural occuring death not those whose lives are ended early and tragically. All things have to come to an end but not nessicarilly murder or such.
There is peace in death. You preach respect to the dead, and lay the dead to peace. Raven Queen also opposes undeath. You bring peace to the souls of the walking dead. There is a lot to work with there...

Though I'll chime in and repeat, just say no to the pacifist healer feat. You can still play a pacifist cleric in the literal sense, try to find peaceful solutions to problems, resort to self defense when absolutely necessary, and even then, subdue rather than kill your foes. You do not need the pacifist healer feat to do any of this.
There is peace in death. You preach respect to the dead, and lay the dead to peace. Raven Queen also opposes undeath. You bring peace to the souls of the walking dead. There is a lot to work with there...

Though I'll chime in and repeat, just say no to the pacifist cleric feat. You can still play a pacifist cleric in the literal sense, try to find peaceful solutions to problems, resort to self defense when absolutely necessary, and even then, subdue rather than kill your foes.



hm I may have misread the feat as dealing like lethal damage to a bloodied target I might be paraphrasing. I didn't think non-lethal damage counted.

when I say pacifist I might be using the wrong word I'd still fight and help my allies. Just not a first resort. Peace not pacfism I suppose.



The Messenger of the Peace of the grave thought seems very interesting now that I think about it...

Would that make me a saint or a dark saint then? (divine power 155 dark saint panel)
hm I may have misread the feat as dealing like lethal damage to a bloodied target I might be paraphrasing. I didn't think non-lethal damage counted.

Not only does it count, but the damage you do against any bloodied enemy counts, regardless of whether it's undead, elemental, construct, what have you. Not the fluff you're looking for.
hm I may have misread the feat as dealing like lethal damage to a bloodied target I might be paraphrasing. I didn't think non-lethal damage counted.

Not only does it count, but the damage you do against any bloodied enemy counts, regardless of whether it's undead, elemental, construct, what have you. Not the fluff you're looking for.




Wow that's a lot worse than I thought thanks for pointing that out!
So for example the raven queen represents natural occuring death not those whose lives are ended early and tragically. All things have to come to an end but not nessicarilly murder or such.



That is actually what the raven queen represents, i presume since she is not an evil god and that there is a god of murder.
What about as far as the shielding cleric from divine power? Thoughts on that? I was basically going to use support skills such as healing  (Some offensive powers for when we're in a pinch but healbot is nice too right?) and other skills to incapacitate opponents, bane etc.
A 'healbot' is no longer necessary. Enabling is worth far more than healing. Dead monsters do no damage.
Back to Basics - A Guide to Basic Attacks You might be playing DnD wrong if... "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." Albert Einstein
Hm I guess the game really changed a lot more than I thought from 3.5e to 4e

What exactly should an "Ideal" cleric be doing in combat? 
Hm I guess the game really changed a lot more than I thought from 3.5e to 4e

What exactly should an "Ideal" cleric be doing in combat? 

Read the Cleric handbook.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

It'll make it very obvious.
After reading the cleric handbook I suppose what I have is:

Level 1

Kalashtar Healic build

18 14 11 10 10 8 array

Before racials (healics can dump str since they don't use melee powers or str based powers)
 8  str
 11 con
 10 dex
 10 int
 18 wis
 14 cha 

After racials
 8  str
 11 con
 10 dex
 10 int
 20wis
 16 cha

Trained in Relgion (obviously), Diplomacy, Heal, Insight

Feat: Pacifist healer (I want to playtest this at least once) if that doesn't work out I'll go with: defensive healing word, superior implement training,  distant advantage, battle healer or battlewise
Our DM allows retraining anyway might as well try it out.

At wills: Astral Seal (standard healic power) and sacred flame (Dig those extra saving throws and damage midiagation from temp hp!)

Encounter: Bane (debuff that competes with divine guidance) or cause fear (trigger for AoOs on a single target from the entire party, if used right)
(Can't use actual divine guidance because DM said dragon and dungeon magazines are out.)

Daily: Moment of Glory (Push 3 and knock all enemies prone in close blast 5? Resist 5 to everything on all allies in burst at level 1? Yes, please.) 

Level 2

Ultilties: Return from Death's Door, Shield of faith (if someone can post a link to the errata that says it's a minor action) if not, Cure light wounds

Am I on the right track thus far?

Taken from the cleric handbook above about pacifist healer: On the plus side this has been errated to only stun when you make an attack roll and do damage: so ongoing damage, sustained zones, powers that make other people attack, etc. do not stun.  There is confusion on the most recent errata and stuns since the summary of the errata used the original stunning text from diving power, but the official final errata document and I think the RAI as well is that it does not stun unless you make an attack roll and the attack does direct immediate damage. 
Kalashtar doesn't have much support. You don't have a whole lot of control over when you will need Mental Clarity, so Clarity of Spirit is rather unreliable. Go with Deva or Dwarf or Half-elf, or Human, or Elf, or really anything with more support than Kalashtar.

Exacting Utterance is probably better than Cause Fear at lower levels for nova enabling, unless you are a half-elf noble with knack for success or the like, and can get a lot of allies with good basic attacks around a target.

Shield of Faith became a minor action in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. There is a class Compendium article that fixes it too, but you'll have to go digging for it. Cure Light Wounds is pretty stinky, I'd avoid it.

First level feat I'd pick up for a cleric is Toughness, to be retrained to an expertise of some sort at level 2, but if you want to "playtest" pacifist healer, test away. You'll probably do fine for a few levels. It just starts contributing to grind past mid-heroic. The more you play, the more you will run across situations where you are the person going before a teetering monster and can't finish them off, giving them another turn.
 
So would you say the +2cha isn't worth much in the long run then?
The feat support and racial features of other races more than make up for not grabbing the Charisma.  A bump to Wisdom is still ideal, but many races fulfil that (Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Human, etc.)

A heal-centric Cleric build is certainly possible, but as has been mentioned earlier, this will make combats drag out much longer than otherwise.  I wouldn't suggest a Healic as a fifth man, and not even as an eighth or ninth man.  The simple fact is that clerics are at no shortage of healing abilities, even without making it a primary focus.  You can still build a very strong buffing/debuffing cleric who will fill all your healing needs and do plenty of other things.

Bargle wrote:
This is CharOp. We not only assume block-of-tofu monsters, but also block-of-tofu DMs.
 

Zelink wrote:
You're already refluffing, why not refluff to something that doesn't suck?
Deva gets the +2 Charisma if you really want it, but I'd rather go dwarf for a minor second wind and a light shield to gain access to Devout Protector Expertise, or as I mentioned go Half-elf noble for a couple ally moving powers for more efficient use of Cause Fear, not to mention all the other uses of Knack for Success.
One thing you need to understand is that CharOp is about only the very best builds in 4e.  What you posted is perfectly fine for a non-op game and way better than the first build you put up. If the rest of your group is also pretty new to 4e or not that concerned about making the most effective characters in combat, this would do fine.

That being said, you might find it fun to read up on some other things here and learn more about optimization.
the pacifist does roughly double the level 1 healing output of any other leader, but its lack of damage and low range/poor defenses make combat take substantially longer, particularly in unoptimized parties. it's tempting, and non-optimizers often even consider it overpowered, but the truth is that after a few levels it gets pretty boring to play, and you'll have combats taking 8-10 rounds occasionally.  even taking every possible healing option, combats taking that long strains the pacifist's healing ability more than a more optimal leader would be strained with normal healing capacity.

re: your saint va dark saint question, without looking it up, i'm pretty sure that's a fluff box. one of the best things about 4e is that it's explicitly stated in the rules that you are encouraged to ignore or change fluff text at any opportunity, so whatever mechanics you like can represent anything you want. It can be confusing to people who don't know you're re-fluffing something, so just try to keep in mind what the original name of something was if you change it. that said, the raven queen is not an evil god. a messenger of peace / saint of hers could be said to be bringing the death-peace upon those who have evaded it for too long or defied it.  
Could someone post an optimized example battle cleric build (just for early levels) and see how that would compare in a typical low level encounter? So this way I can see the difference of how the healic takes more time or becomes repeatitive?
Could someone post an optimized example battle cleric build (just for early levels) and see how that would compare in a typical low level encounter? So this way I can see the difference of how the healic takes more time or becomes repeatitive?




I suggest you open up the character builder, and follow the Cleric's Handbook and try the build(s) yourself. CharOp is not going to do it for you. There are perfect examples in the Handbook, as well as explanations to your question(s). I've tried to tell you, but you don't seem to want to do the work. That's fine, but it doesn't fly here. Now, since it's the holidays, I'm being nice, but seriously, do it yourself, post the build(s) you want help with, and take it from there. Otherwise you're gonna end up Zelink's lunch.
RIP George! 4-21-11 RIP Abie! 1-2-13
Funny Forum Quotes
[quote author=82733368 post=532127449]
58115148 wrote:
"You notice a large piece of mold clinging to your toothbrush. What do you do?" "I cast Fireball." "I run like hell!
63797881 wrote:
The standard d4 is somewhat (SOMEWHAT) rounded on the top, the older models are even flat. The Lego is shaped in such a way that in an emergency, you can use one as a makeshift surgical knife.
147742801 wrote:
57457938 wrote:
My wife asked me if her pants made her look fat. What do you think I said?
Wife: Do these pants make me look fat? RedSiegfried: I just killed a bunch of orc women and children.
63797881 wrote:
82733368 wrote:
28.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character (Monk or otherwise) does not require my character to be completely shitfaced, no matter what the name (and fun interpretation) implies.
29.) Making a "Drunken Master" style character does not require ME to be completely tanked, no matter how "in-character" I want to be..
NOM NOM NOM.

And seriously, how hard is cleric to build? I frankly really dislike clerics, because they don't measure up anywhere near Shamans, Bards, Warlords, or Artificers in heroic, and lack the options in paragon of those 4. But just take sky blue powers, take some of the basic feats, and you'll be fine.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Also, for charop, hybrid cleric > pure cleric. Gives you access to some of their best powers and BCL, and you pick the best of another class.
There are several battle clerics in my cleric build handbook in my signature.   Like zelink said pick out blue and dark blue powers from the handbook, pick a race that gives you a strength bonus, and pick dark blue and sky blue feats that make sense and it will work fine.  And mengu is correct that hybrid cleric is also usually better as long as you know what you are doing.

The problem is that pacifist clerics overemphasize healing at the expense of damage and drastically prevents you from taking most cleric powers, including some of the best cleric paragon paths' powers, unless you are willing to risk getting stunned.  Clerics don't need to invest much in healing to be really good at it so its a big sacrifice for little return.  The last battle cleric I played invested relatively little in healing and I never once used all the healing powers my PC had, never had an ally die, and I played him from 11-14.
All leaders in 4e get a base of 2 heals per encounter, gaining an additional one at level 16. All leader classes have multiple utility powers that give additional healing. All leader classes have multiple encounter/daily attack powers that grant additional healing.  All leader classes get a bonus to at least their base 2/3 encounter heals, and this bonus increases every 6 levels. Almost all leader classes can boost it up higher with a feat. 

Clerics are on the upper-edge of all of these, in terms of number of heals available and the numerical bonus to the heals, but it's overkill, with or without the pacifist feat, with or without Healer's Lore. The pacifist feat adds an average of +CHA+3.5 at heroic. This likely means a bonus of +7-8 per heal, which, granted, is a level 1 healing surge. But it's also less than most monsters hit for past level 3 or so.  So in order for pacifist healer to come out ahead of a non-pacifist healer, the number of additional attacks creatures get off due to living longer due to the cleric dealing zero damage has to be less than the number of divine healing powers used by the pacifist in that encounter.

And even then, that's a bit misleading, because more healing instances also means more drain on party surges, even if the bonus surgeless healing makes it look on paper like a pacifist would cause less surge drain. 

And pacifists also fall quickly into the "no, sorry bloodied ally, you're not damaged enough yet to be worth healing yet" trap, to avoid wasted healing capacity, which often leads to more people falling unconscious than you might like.  True, starting from zero makes this the most efficient manner of healing, but costing allies who can deal damage important turns only slows down combats even more.
Passifist isn't good.  Lazy will work though, and keep with the theme (you don't do damage, at least not directly).  Say warlord|cleric, shaman|cleric, or ardent|cleric.

Here's my attempt.  It's a bit outdated, but should fit pretty well.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.