12/18/2012 Feature: "Magic Online Programs Update: MOCS, MOPR, and More"

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Unhappy about the removal of 4 pack sealed.

Unhappy with the "phantom" replacement, because I feel that keeping what you open is a significant part of the fun in the first place, and opening something nice in a Phantom event, especially if your pool doesn't even allow you to reasonably play it feels really demoralizing.

Further, also unhappy about the price of the proposed 6 pack phantom sealed. When 6 pack phantom sealed is the format for TNMO, it currently costs 5 tickets, is 3 rounds of swiss and pays out 3 packs for 3-0 and 2 packs for 2-1. Additionally, everyone gets a promo card and the 3-0 player gets a foil promo card. To me, it feels comparatively overpriced, that the 8 players collectively pay 24 more tickets for 3 more packs payout, without the promo cards.

You typically skip all the 2-3 ticket cards because you need a card that works in your deck. 

I almost always pick a card of 1 ticket or more, and love when they are passed to me.

If you go swiss, you lose money even if you win the entire draft (still find that funny).

Incorrect. You forgot to include the 4 - 5 tickets of cards (on average) that you pick in the "EV" calculations of a swiss draft.  In the long run if you can average a slightly better than 2-1 record (a few more 3-0 than 1-2), you can go infinte in swiss and enjoy long sessions of playing limited Magic.
Keep the 4-pack sealed events!

Phantom events are lame. They offer little for the player. Aren't you guys making enough money? Talk about feeling violated!

Instead of taking value away from your consumers give them more prize support, give us more EV! Heck it's only digital images anyway.

Seems like all Wizards is doing is taking more from us as consumers. LAME!
Instead of taking value away from your consumers give them more prize support, give us more EV! Heck it's only digital images anyway.


If it's "only digital images anyway", then what does the EV matter?  Oh, right, because they're not "only digital images". 
wow, first you guys destroy leagues and now you decide to scrap the next best thing in 4 booster sealed, you guys at mtgo dev team are the biggest jerks ive come accross in quite some time
I'm new to MtGO, but not to Mtg.  So I understand the mechanics behind everything to a certain extent.  I cannot understand why WotC would get rid of 4 booster sealed and I agree that part of the fun behind draft is keeping the cards you drafted.  Phantom should be much, much, much less than regular draft to play and on top of it have a small prize payout otherwise the prize payout needs to be increased in recognition of the loss of the drafted cards.

I'd love to have a response from someone at WotC that can explain from a Business Development perspective why this decision was made because it seems very strange from the perspective of a marketing professional.

"Let's spend an enjoyable evening taking part in epic story."

I won't be playing any limited beyond release events with these changes. We're not idiots, we can evaluate the EV changes.

Incorrect. You forgot to include the 4 - 5 tickets of cards (on average) that you pick in the "EV" calculations of a swiss draft.  In the long run if you can average a slightly better than 2-1 record (a few more 3-0 than 1-2), you can go infinte in swiss and enjoy long sessions of playing limited Magic.

What are you smoking? I only get 1-2 tix atmost from most of my drafts! That is the average. I wish I could sell my rares/mythics for 4-5 tix.


 I only play the 4 booster sealed formats on mtgo.  Between the lag or sudden disconnects which can cause you to miss picks during a draft; to the fact that generally, player's pools get balanced in the long run of sealeds; the fact that I get to keep what I open, and generally I don't have to spend a ton of money to play them; that they are swiss and I can play all three rounds; and they can be fun  - these are the reasons I only play 4 pack sealed.  In that order.
I am not dumping 8 tix for a play experience in which I may see absolutely no return.  At least in 4 pack you may open a mythic or 3 to recoup the pack losses when the rest of your pool is horrible.  

Today is the last day I play on MTGO.
I am going to dump my collection, and spend my time and money on more productive things. 
They went through with it, queues are gone and have been replaced by bad-payout queues nobody wants or is joining.
Sad day for us all. Great job Wizards, thanks for killing sealed.
Perhaps this goes without saying, but I am available to take ppl's accounts off their hands (at no charge!) if they want to quit MTGO over this
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I created an account just so i can leave a feedback on your current move to get rid of 4rnd sealed.  You have lost me as an mtg online player, i would have to receive an email saying sorry we screwed up please come back to mtg online before i even download the application again.  As usual you got greedy. Hope you lose money.
+1 to everything said here.  Bravo.  I, too, miss 4-pack sealed and strongly support whatever it takes to bring it back.

I enjoy drafts, but what really brought me back to Magic Online was, in fact, the 4-pack sealed!  I found the format to be very fun and challenging!  The margin of error you have in the format is incredibly small - but the better players still win.  I am sad to see it go

If you are a collector, the 4-pack sealed was the best format to play for collecting one of every card.  Obviously, the phantom sealed has no appeal to me at all in this regard.

By the way, there seems to be very little incentive for the phantom sealed because the cards won't be added to your collection, and even if you go 3-0 you are only up 3/3.5 tix for about three hours of your time.  If you really want to practice, okay, but at best you'll make 1 tix per hour....

4-pack sealed was firing as quick as draft events - but 6-pack would take forever to fire!  Even scheduled 6-pack events were slow to get enough players to fire (other than certain special "top-8" events).  

Why they are getting rid of the 4-pack sealed is beyond me! 

I agree, 4 pack sealed getting cut is complete crap.  Good thing is only 1 Phantom sealed has fired all day and the queue is sitting at 0 waiting.  I'll draft until my packs and tix are used up, but if 4 pack isn't back soon I'll be doing redemption and erasing MTGO from my computer.
I like Sealed.  I don't like Draft.  Surely, I cannot be the only person that feels this way.

Fewer options for Sealed sucks.

Pretty simple.
I agree with everyone else. The only reason I came on the mtgo was to play 4 packed sealed. I would play one everyday but now that is has turned to phantom there is no point in playing anymore. I am a person who likes to play sealed and this was that best option for me. Now thats its gone, i am gone
Typically, I only play sealed at prerelease and shortly after release because it is such a crapshoot and about the only reason to play is to build up the card collection for constructed decks and trading. I'm guessing that I am pretty typical in this regard. Maybe WOTC is thinking that sealed will be a more viable format on a regular basis for those who like it. I'm guessing that it will be less popular all the time now.

I like the Holiday Cube, but half the fun is drafting. If I end up with a losing deck, I blame my own strategy. In sealed events, I end up cursing the luck of the draw.
Well I'm glad people are voting with their wallets: only 2 of these horrible phantom sealeds have fired in the first 6 hours they're live.
Hopefully this will make Wizards re-evaluate and either bring back 4-booster sealed or at least make these phantom queues somewhat more attractive in terms of entry/payout.
Well I'm glad people are voting with their wallets: only 2 of these horrible phantom sealeds have fired in the first 6 hours they're live.
Hopefully this will make Wizards re-evaluate and either bring back 4-booster sealed or at least make these phantom queues somewhat more attractive in terms of entry/payout.

How often did 4 booster sealed fire? (I have no idea just wondering what the comparison is)

Calavera on MTGO I collect Zendikar Foil Basic lands. Trade me yours! Things that I want to see changed on MTGO: 1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events. 2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts. 3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible. 4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly! 5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper 6: Power 9! 7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic) 8: Program Split option back in! 9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp) 10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor. 11: Bring leagues Back!

I'm not sure. I actually counted it last week, but I forgot already. I think something like 5 per hour.

How often did 4 booster sealed fire? (I have no idea just wondering what the comparison is)

I believe they were pretty popular and fired every few minutes.  I played a few of these yesterday and didn't have to wait long for an event to fire.

I'd like to echo many of the earlier opinions that I'm very disapointed that the 4 man sealed events have been taken away.  I do enjoy drafing but get tired of it much quicker than sealed.  I'm also not the greatest player and having a swiss format and a way to build a collection for redemption was a great incentive to play in the four pack sealed.  It would be nice if Wizards polled their customers before making a move such as this.  Perhaps reformatting the phantom sealed to the same stucture as TNMO (5 ticket entry, 2-1 2 packs, 3-0 3 packs) would be a better option and I might find myself playing in these events.  
Sounds like these are definitley failing hard, as everyone predicted. Too expensive to meet their stated goal, no cards kept to attract the collectors.

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The definitive thread on the Magic Online shuffler.

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Draw probabilities, Swiss results, Elo ratings and booster EV

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Thanks to PhoenixLAU for the [thread=1097559]awesome avatar[/thread]!

"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
Seems people are voting with thier wallets..... ONLY 3 RTR and 0 M13 phantoms have fired,   I bet atleast 60% of the players that did those RTR phantoms will NOT do another one.

Bring back the 4pack sealed please.
I signed up an account just to voice my unhappiness with the removal of 4 booster sealed.

I had been out of the game for a number of years until early 2012 when I decided to play a bit of MTGO again. I did a few drafts and then discovered the wonder that is 4 booster sealed. This format was great fun because it allowed you to open packs and keep all the rares without having to worry about draft picks, and it was easy to regularly 2-1 and make up the rest of your next entry by selling cards. I find sealed a lot more fun than draft, which can get stale quite quickly.

After discovering this brilliant format I must have played upwards of 100 events of 4 booster sealed this year. I play after work most days, and sometimes play two queues a day.

Now I will play ZERO.

Phantom is not for me. It is incredibly expensive (8 tickets for no product!). Surely if a draft is 3 boosters + 2 tix, then a sealed event with no product should be 2 tix entry? And on top of that you don't get to bulk out your collection for constructed.

Phantom sucks. 4 booster sealed rules. It beggars belief that WoTC have implemented this change considering all the responses on here!
Also it's the Christmas holiday. I was planning on playing a full day of MTGO tomorrow. Now that my game of choice has been removed, I'll be doing something that's not MTG.

So double fail for change + timing of change.
To whom it may concern, removing the 4 pack booster sealed was STUPID.  I will be playing much less now.
I really dislike the removal of 4 pack events.
It was a great way of - like people have said it before me - increasing your collection and playing limited.
If one was able to go 2-1, which wasn't very difficult, it didn't even cost a lot of money.

The phantom events are bad because you pay 8 tix to just play, and even if you win, you win packs, which are now useless - you can't play another event with them.  Sure you can draft from them or you can sell them but overall it just feels worse - or counter-intuitive. To me at least, but seeing the responses to others as well.

4-packs were good. Sure, a few cards were stronger in there (like Increasing Confusion) but it's so marginal.

I feel I am forced to play a format (draft) now, that I like less than sealed. It's not good. I am unhappy.
270 posts in and no additional word from Wizards. Just here, we are doing this, deal with it.

I won't be selling off my account, but I am not spending any more money in the store, and I won't be using any tickets or packs (unless nix tix....) to enter events until we see a positive change. Wizards has 1 more year before I cash out completely. No significant improvement in 2013 (either through events, a new client, better promo structure, etc.) and I will finally be gone.

There whole arguement is just bogus with regards to the fact that Wizards R&D doesn't develope for the 4 booster sealed format.  Did they ever develop for Kalaidescope, 100 card singleton, prismatic or even Momir? I highly doubt that but the formats did exist in a sanctioned environment and you bet they wanted those formats to succeed.

I tried to email Mr. Chris Kiritz Magic Online Business Manager.   When I submitted my email I got an unknown author responce.  I can only hope that they canned his ass for his bone headed decision.  I doubt it was his decision alone but since he is the manager he should take responcibility.  
Here is an odd solution. An event that has the same entry fee and prize payout as 4 pack sealed that shows players the cards to be added to their collection at the beginning then adds 2 phantom boosters to their sealed pool  and then plays out like 4-pack except with 40 card decks.

Alternatly players could open 6 phantom packs at the beginning and recieve 4 special packs that are invalid for event entry (or 4 packs worth of cards) in addition to other prizes at the end.

Both of these soultions would require a little extra programming to work, but from a financial/collecting perspective these would be exactly the same as 4-pack for both players and wizards, and from a gameplay perspective would not have 30 card deck problems.

270 posts in and no additional word from Wizards. Just here, we are doing this, deal with it.

I wouldn't expect a respons just yet, but our feedback in this thread is surely read by Wizards. Also don't forget we're in the holiday season and they probably want to see how these new queues perform first.

Since they haven't been firing at all, I expect some respons in a couple of weeks. Probably a change in entry/payout an/or the addition of a non-phantom 6-booster sealed. Also expect Dimir to have a milling theme and there's your real reason for the change.

 Made a comparison of the number of times a queue fires.



From once every +- 15 minutes to once a ?? because it's too infrequent to show up. Once a day maybe? 
Anyone can check by the way as the queue is virtually empty all day and night and I've seen it fire twice so far (the RTR one that is, dont think M13 fired yet).

Hope they figure out their mistake. Doubt they care enough though.
From 10 am pacific on the 26th, when they opened the phantom sealeds, until 10 pm Pacific, 4 rtr phantom sealeds fired.

From what I've reat on pure mtgo, this forum and other places, 9 out of 10 people are very upset with the removal of the 4 pack sealeds.

I can understand Wizards removing them, they were the best return for us as players/collectors.  What upsets me is that Chris mentioned nothing about the 4 packed sealeds being the least profitable for Wizards, instead he wrote that it was a broken format and that the phantoms are successful.  

Chris, come clean about this terrible decision.  Talk about the real business decision, damn your title included business in it.  I have found that most magic players are above average intelligence.  By arbitrarily making this decision and removing the best value option for players while maintaining that monetary reasons were not considered, insults my and the rest of your paying customers' intelligence.

Its the holiday season, many people had extra time to play.  This decision dropped the 8 player sealed firing from something like 5 or 6 an hour to 4 every 12 hours.  72 vs 4.

Most of the feedback before the change was actually implemented told you that this was going to be the result, but you still implemented the change.
The main reason i play 4 booster seald is becasue i don't have the time to play 4 rounds...
I wish everyone on these forums showing enthusiasm would show that kind of iniative towards other aspects of magic online, this program would be getting more done if people all voiced up about their likes and dislikes, not just about the removal of four pack sealed. I've seen more responses over this than I have over rating removal and terrible cube prizes. That being said, LONG LIVE FOUR PACK SEALED!
I've stewed over this stuff for the last week - the removal of 4PS, the "reasons" for it, the communications approach, the general ongoing nerfing of prizes/value, and the strong trend towards phantom events - and am not feeling any better about it.  Quite the opposite.  I'll be taking an indefinite break from spending any further $$ on mtgo.  Had a few hundred bucks ready to blow on mtgo during my vacation, too, but it went into multiple other games.  Good timing for Solforge to be coming out relatively soon, i think....perhaps some real competition for a change will lead to positive changes.  
This is the first Christmas break, I didn't drive my family nuts wanting to play magic.  No leagues, no really nice "presents" to play like in other years, and 4 pack sealed is gone.  No phantom for me...I'll never win and 8 tickets for nothing isn't in my budget.  I might play some draft but my budget for magic is dropping while other online games increase.  I need leagues or something else that is less expensive while involving the excitement of opening packs to find that really good money card!

Worth, my Dad was a great salesman and always said sell the best and offer the best deal and the rest will take care of itself.  The best game is what you've got but not the best play or offers.  Make it the best in all three and its a win-win.  What you guys are doing isn't the best you can offer the players. We older players know that and don't like it.

Haven't seen a single phantom sealed fire during the times I've been on...
Regarding the elimination of 4-Pack Sealed:

Firstly, let me say I am an avid limited player; I love drafting and sealed, and have a tremendous amount of respect for those at Wizard that work every day to bring such a challenging, diverse, well-designed product as Magic the Gathering.   However, I feel that it is entirely too common in this day and age for comapnies to use statistics to drive profitability to distance themselves from their customers by clearly ignoring their wishes, touting the line "the game isn't designed for this, so it doesn't work" rather than challenging themselves to deliver a version of the product that overcomes the obstacles they claim evident in the current iteration.

Furthermore, the problems with their assertions that: (1) "First, and most importantly, Magic R&D does not do any set development around four-booster Sealed." -- This is an issue inherent to any kind of change to any format of any type.  You could say the same about the entirety of limited, considering it wasn't until years after the product was realeased that this was an accepted format.  Instead of complaining that you don't design a product around a format, find a way to find a happy medium between what your customers want and a way to design the product.  (2) "Second, thirty-card decks are not a standard size and the client does not handle them well." -- This is the EXACT same arguement as (1) since the crux of the explaination is that a product WotC offers is unable to meet the demands of their customers through design flaws.

On the issue of profitability.  I am by no means a statistician, but I can use figures other people  develop and compare them: Assuming packs universally cost 4 tix, the total payout (without factoring in any cards received from the event) of a sealed 4-pack queue is 53.1% vs a payout of 42.8% for 8-4 and Swiss (and even lower in 4-3-2-2, which is another mockery, but I digress).  With these 2 numbers in mind, it makes WotC's efforts transparent: they are eliminating an event that is clearly more payout-friendly (a greater than 10% increase from the next-most-profitable event) and more customer-friendly (since it is a swiss event, you can play 3 rounds even if you don't win anything; however, if you do, you can still make tix on the event as a whole).  It is unfortunate when a company tries to make excuses that further exacerbate the negative PR rather then owning up to an explaination of "We simply can't make money on this; we're open to suggestions on how to find a way to cooperate"

Finally, WotC, please understand that your long term viability as a comapny rests on the faithful devotion you have had for your customers for so long.  Don't make this an exception and utilize the feedback that you see here on the boards to understand that 4-pack sealed may be a "broken" product, but it is still one that had many, many happy players now struggling to fill the void of an even they often played.  You may not bring it back like it once was, but please find a way to make your customers happy.

I read ther beginning and I read the end, everything else in between was too long :D

But I can see that this whole thread basically is against the idea of phantom sealed in its current form and was happy with 4-pack sealed.

And I support them. I loved 4-pack sealed also.

Lucklily for us these phantom sealed deck are not firering at all.

But this whole situation made me think: do we have a positive example from the past where WoTC has actually listened to us (it's customers) and reversed the decision they made or cancelled it? Can someone with a better memory help me out here? I can't remember, but it may be that I don't want to remember :D

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