Panoptic Mirror, VERY confused...

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Hello all.
Not really sure where to put this so move it if it needs to be moved.
Could someone explain how Panoptic Mirror works ?

It seems something like an Isochron Sceptre but the wording really has me confused.
Do I exile one card with it...or can any number of cards be exiled  and during your upkeep you choose one that has been exiled with it.....or something like that?
Its the 'copy AN imprinted' that is making me wonder.

If I wanted to use Army of the Damned with the Mirror, how would it work exactly?
Then what about a card like Goblin War Strike?

Thanks a ton in advance for all your help.

Do I exile one card with it...or can any number of cards be exiled  and during your upkeep you choose one that has been exiled with it.....or something like that?

Each time you use panoptic mirror's first ability, you can exile one card. If you use the ability multiple times, you can exile multiple cards.
If I wanted to use Army of the Damned with the Mirror, how would it work exactly?

At some point, you use panoptic mirror's first ability, with X = 8. You exile army of the damned, imprinting it on the mirror. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, panoptic mirror's second ability triggers, and you can cast a copy of army of the dead.
Then what about a card like Goblin War Strike?

At some point, you use panoptic mirror's first ability, with X = 1. You exile goblin war strike imprinting it on the mirror. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, panoptic mirror's second ability triggers, and you can cast a copy of goblin war strike.
or can any number of cards be exiled  and during your upkeep you choose one that has been exiled with it.....or something like that?



Exactly.

Any time the mirror is untapped and you have open, you can pay to exile a new spell, which you can then choose to copy during any future upkeep.

It's also very important to note that the Imprint ability can be activated in response to the upkeep trigger. Since they resolve in reverse order, when the upkeep trigger resolves, you will be able to choose the newly-imprinted card.
Thanks guys. :-)

So lets say I exiled both of the sorceries I mentioned before...during my upkeep I choose which of those two exiled cards I want to 'copy' that turn without paying any mana for it?

Sorry if this seems stupid, but I just want to make absolutely sure I understand how the card works before I order a playset. The last card I thought worked one way didnt at all once I checked here with you all. Not too fun to order cards only to find out they arent what you thought they were
Yes, that's correct - if you imprint both Army of the Damned and Goblin War Strike on the Panoptic Mirror, for each upkeep trigger you'll choose one of those cards to copy and cast. You won't get to cast both from the one trigger.

As an aside, it's an infinite turn combo with... well, any card that gives you an extra turn.  
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Cool...thanks again
One more question.
Is the copy considered 'cast' or what?
Some of  the terminology still confuses me.
I was using Maelstrom Archangel to get Phage the Untouchable into play and found out later that costs me the game too because of the wording or something.
Thanks guys. :-)

So lets say I exiled both of the sorceries I mentioned before...during my upkeep I choose which of those two exiled cards I want to 'copy' that turn without paying any mana for it?

That's correct yes.

When the Mirror's ability resolves, it allows you to copy any one card exiled by the Mirror. This includes cards exiled in your upleep after the ability triggers.

For example, say you cast the Mirror in your turn 5. You don't imprint a card on it.

At the beginning of your next upkeep the Mirror triggers. In response you activate the Mirror's abilit for X=5, and imprint Temporal Manipulation.

When the Mirror's copy resolves you can copy the Manipulation and get another turn.
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Cool...thanks again
One more question.
Is the copy considered 'cast' or what?

Panoptic Mirror tells you to copy a card and then cast that copy of a card. Therefore yes the copy is cast.

Thius is  possibkle bcause you are copying a card and not a spell. Copies of spells are never ccast; copies of cards are cast.

Some of  the terminology still confuses me.
I was using Maelstrom Archangel to get Phage the Untouchable into play and found out later that costs me the game too because of the wording or something.

If you cast Phage from Maelstrom Angel's ability you don't lose the game. Whoever told you that was wrong.
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"If you cast Phage from Maelstrom Angel's ability you don't lose the game. Whoever told you that was wrong"

Well that is interesting. To me it looked like it worked just fine. I was using it in an animated dead sort of deck. Get out the Maelstrom quick, attack next turn and drop the Phage. Seemed ok but someone on another forum I was talking to gave me a long explanation that I didnt understand that seemed to be saying that the Phage wasnt 'cast' from my hand but another source put it into play, which meant I lost the game.



"Panoptic Mirror tells you to copy a card and then cast that copy of a card. Therefore yes the copy is cast.
Thius is  possibkle bcause you are copying a card and not a spell. Copies of spells are never ccast; copies of cards are cast."

Great....thanks for the info. I'll have to print this thread out so I dont have to argue with anyone about it when we play
Thanks guys. :-)

So lets say I exiled both of the sorceries I mentioned before...during my upkeep I choose which of those two exiled cards I want to 'copy' that turn without paying any mana for it?

That's correct yes.

When the Mirror's ability resolves, it allows you to copy any one card exiled by the Mirror. This includes cards exiled in your upleep after the ability triggers.

For example, say you cast the Mirror in your turn 5. You don't imprint a card on it.

At the beginning of your next upkeep the Mirror triggers. In response you activate the Mirror's abilit for X=5, and imprint Temporal Manipulation.

When the Mirror's copy resolves you can copy the Manipulation and get another turn.



So I cast the Mirror on turn 5, then on my next turn say I have a Dark Ritual or something to get the 8mana for the Army of the Damned and imprint it on the Mirror, then it can immediately copy that card and put the 13 tokens into play during that same upkeep?

Maelstrom Archangel lets you "play" a card, which for nonland cards means "cast"
so you'll be fine with Phage

/edit: actually the oracle text has been changed to "cast", so it is even clearer when you read that
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"If you cast Phage from Maelstrom Angel's ability you don't lose the game. Whoever told you that was wrong"

Well that is interesting. To me it looked like it worked just fine. I was using it in an animated dead sort of deck. Get out the Maelstrom quick, attack next turn and drop the Phage. Seemed ok but someone on another forum I was talking to gave me a long explanation that I didnt understand that seemed to be saying that the Phage wasnt 'cast' from my hand but another source put it into play, which meant I lost the game.

Phage's relevant ability: -
When Phage the Untouchable enters the battlefield, if you didn't cast it from your hand, you lose the game.

Phage checks to see whether you cast the card from your hand or not. If you did, the ability does not trigger.

Maelstrom Angel's relevant ability: -
Whenever Maelstrom Archangel deals combat damage to a player, you may cast a nonland card from your hand without paying its mana cost.

The Angel says you can cast a card from your hand. So if you use this permission to cast Phage, you are casting it from your hand, so Phage's ability will not even trigger, let alone cause you to lose the game.
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To be fair, Maeltstrom Archangel is about the only card that would let you successfully cheat Phage into play without paying her large casting cost and without loseing the game as a result.  Almost everything else would cause you to lose the game if you tried it e.g. Reanimate, Zombify, Elvish Piper, etc...
So I cast the Mirror on turn 5, then on my next turn say I have a Dark Ritual or something to get the 8mana for the Army of the Damned and imprint it on the Mirror, then it can immediately copy that card and put the 13 tokens into play during that same upkeep?

Assuming you can get the eight mana necessary, yes.  You'd need two Rituals, or start with 6 mana.
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To be fair, Maeltstrom Archangel is about the only card that would let you successfully cheat Phage into play without paying her large casting cost and without loseing the game as a result.  Almost everything else would cause you to lose the game if you tried it e.g. Reanimate, Zombify, Elvish Piper, etc...


That one was fun trying to find out how to pull it off.
I was building an Animate Dead deck and had already bought Phage and wanted to see if a creature could get Phage out somehow so I could use the animate dead sort of card to do it all. Then I crossed the Maelstrom and had a lot of fun with the deck when the combo would come out. It was a little disapointing when I was told it didnt work.
But with cards like Thraximundar and Sheoldred, Whispering One out there the deck is actually better now than when it had the Phage in it.
I had a few of the Eldrazi it in at one point but that just made it so no one wanted to play
So I cast the Mirror on turn 5, then on my next turn say I have a Dark Ritual or something to get the 8mana for the Army of the Damned and imprint it on the Mirror, then it can immediately copy that card and put the 13 tokens into play during that same upkeep?

Assuming you can get the eight mana necessary, yes.  You'd need two Rituals, or start with 6 mana.


Cool...thanks again for all the help guys.

Definitely going to order a playset...
Looks like Goblin War Strike is going to be pretty cool with the Mirror.
Dont even have to attack....just keep building up goblin tokens and let the mirror do its thing
Another quick question about the rules and timing.

I have these on the battlefield'
- Krenko, Mob Boss
- Panoptic Mirror with a Goblin War Strike exiled
- 9 Goblin 1/1 creature tokens

On my next upkeep when the Mirrors ability triggers, can I, in response, use Krenkos ability to double the tokes to 19 (9 tokens + Krenko himself for a total of 9+10=19) and then do 19 damage using the exiled GWS...or is the damage going to end up being based on what is in play at the beginning of the upkeep?

Thanks again
Another quick question about the rules and timing.

I have these on the battlefield'
- Krenko, Mob Boss
- Panoptic Mirror with a Goblin War Strike exiled
- 9 Goblin 1/1 creature tokens

On my next upkeep when the Mirrors ability triggers, can I, in response, use Krenkos ability to double the tokes to 19 (9 tokens + Krenko himself for a total of 9+10=19) and then do 19 damage using the exiled GWS...or is the damage going to end up being based on what is in play at the beginning of the upkeep?

Thanks again

The War Cry counts the number of goblins you control when it resolves, not when it's put on the stack. So yes, you'll be able to use Krenko's ability before the Strike resolves in order to deal more damage.

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Questions don't have to make sense, but answers do.

Another quick question about the rules and timing.

I have these on the battlefield'
- Krenko, Mob Boss
- Panoptic Mirror with a Goblin War Strike exiled
- 9 Goblin 1/1 creature tokens

On my next upkeep when the Mirrors ability triggers, can I, in response, use Krenkos ability to double the tokes to 19 (9 tokens + Krenko himself for a total of 9+10=19) and then do 19 damage using the exiled GWS...or is the damage going to end up being based on what is in play at the beginning of the upkeep?

Thanks again

The War Cry counts the number of goblins you control when it resolves, not when it's put on the stack. So yes, you'll be able to use Krenko's ability before the Strike resolves in order to deal more damage.


Thanks.
I know a few players who arent going to be happy campers once this deck is done

The War Cry counts the number of goblins you control when it resolves, not when it's put on the stack. So yes, you'll be able to use Krenko's ability before the Strike resolves in order to deal more damage.


Does it work the same with sorceries like;
Beacon of Creation
Parallel Evolution
Spontaneous Generation
....as in the timing...or is it dependant on the card...and if so what is the factor that makes it different in the wording that would keep the effect of the exiled card from working (just for future reference) like the War Strike?
Thanks again
Normally, you can only cast sorceries during one of your main phases with an empty stack.

If you had some way to cast sorceries as instants, then it would work the same.


Gah!  need to get my brain engaged faster....

There is no need to cast the spell when using the activated abiltity of the card... my bad.
Something that asks for a value during casting like Martial Coup uses that value when cast, however, cast from the Panoptic trigger X would always be 0.

For others like the ones that you mentioned, they check the value during resolution.

You didn't ask, but you can cast a sorcery via the Panoptic trigger even though you wouldn't normally have permissions to do so at that point. 

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Yes, the spells you listed will check on resolution, not when they are put on the stack.

See Jaws of Stone for an example that locks in the amount when it is cast.
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Something that asks for a value during casting like Martial Coup uses that value when cast, however, cast from the Panoptic trigger X would always be 0.


AH...that helps. So it would be pretty useless with anything with X in it?

For others like the one that you mentioned, they check the value during resolution.


I see

So it would be pretty useless with anything with X in it?

yeah, pretty much
though Spoils of War, Mind Warp, Balduvian Rage and Festival of the Guildpact aren't completely useless

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Yes, the spells you listed will check on resolution, not when they are put on the stack.


Wow...this game is really complex sometimes

So the 3 I mentioned work basically the same as the Goblin War Strike and would give me the tokens when the Mirror copy resolves during that same upkeep, correct?


Sometimes this game makes me feel like a complete idiot
donjohnson: I corrected my post above, sorry for confusing you. 
Another quick question about the rules and timing.

I have these on the battlefield'
- Krenko, Mob Boss
- Panoptic Mirror with a Goblin War Strike exiled
- 9 Goblin 1/1 creature tokens

On my next upkeep when the Mirrors ability triggers, can I, in response, use Krenkos ability to double the tokes to 19 (9 tokens + Krenko himself for a total of 9+10=19) and then do 19 damage using the exiled GWS...or is the damage going to end up being based on what is in play at the beginning of the upkeep?

Thanks again



Just a quick note, in your example Goblin War Strike will do 20 damage on resolution (I think you forgot to count Krenko)
donjohnson: I corrected my post above, sorry for confusing you. 


Youre fine...half the time Im so confused when Im asking questions I cant even explain what Im asking properly
Another quick question.

Can Kickers be paid for the copy?

So if I exile Sadistic Sacrament with the Mirror...can I pay the Kicker (7) to make it the 15 cards instead of just the 3 that would be exiled normally?
Yes, Kicker is an additional cost. Additional costs are exempt from the "cast for free" restriction.

That's why you still have to sacrifice a creature if you copy something like Launch Party.

Note that, unlike kicker (which is an additional cost), alternate costs cannot be paid with panoptic mirror because you're already paying an alternate cost.

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Overload is an example of such an alternative cost
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Thanks again, guys.
This card just keeps getting better and better the more Im looking at cards I already own.
There are a few cards like Blood Tithe that I never bother putting into decks at all that are really started to look pretty good
This works out pretty well if I'm understanding it right.

On my turn I play/cast the Mirror.
Next upkeep I pay BBB to exile Sadistic Sacrament with the Mirror which will let me exile 3 of my opponents cards from his library during that upkeep (assuming Im understanding this all correctly).
As soon as I have 7 mana to use I can play the Kicker when the Mirror copy is played since I dont have to pay the BBB to cast the Sacrament copy.

Would this be about right?

Seems as if the Mirror may actually make cards with kickers easier to use overall.
seems about right
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seems about right


cool.
Thanks again.

Probably will have more questions as I find other cards to use with the Mirror.
...Next upkeep I pay BBB to exile Sadistic Sacrament...


You pay . You do not have to match the color of the spell. It looks at converted mana cost, not the mana cost. The mirror is great at enabling off color spells.

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...Next upkeep I pay BBB to exile Sadistic Sacrament...


You pay . You do not have to match the color of the spell. It looks at converted mana cost, not the mana cost. The mirror is great at enabling off color spells.


oh, I forgot that already.
That just makes it easier now
another rules question about the Mirror.

So how this works is the second ability triggers at the beginnning of my upkeep and goes on the stack.
I then pay the mana, then tap the Mirror in response to exile a sorcery or instant from the game which also goes on the stack.

Is it because of the 'last in/first out' thing with the stack that makes it so the copy works that same upkeep?

Just trying to understand so in the future the card wont be so confusing when Im trying to use it with something different.
Yes.
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