New packet today...

We are getting a new packet today for the holidays!

Brace yourselves...the rage is coming. 
My two copper.
I'll be sure to get an extra large popcorn when I go see The Hobbit today. Gonna need some extra for when I get back. :P
We are?  Do you have some secret source for this?

The metagame is not the game.

Time to set my expectatons even lower... again!

EDIT: @Saelorn

www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...

We are?  Do you have some secret source for this?


New L&L article is up.
My two copper.
Can't wait!

Danny

Neat, and a survey as well!

The metagame is not the game.

Yay prestige classes. Hopefully there will be less of them. Great concept in 2000 when they 1st came out but they spammed to many of them.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

If we build prestige classes correctly, we can provide players and DMs with a ton of adventure ideas and campaign goals to work toward from level 1, rather than just a checklist of feats and skills to pick at each level.


The very definition of win.

As far as the survey...that will take some thought.  There are a few standouts, to be sure, but I'm definitely going to paw through my old 3e material to refresh my memory.

Of particular focus are going to be the ones with a great story concept behind them yet were mechanically clunky.  Particularly ones with obnoxious mechanical entry requirements (feats, skill ranks, etc) that if you were able to take them, were awesome.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Geomancer needs to make a comeback. That class was full of ripe RP goodness.
My two copper.
Geomancer needs to make a comeback. That class was full of ripe RP goodness.

Oh, hell yes!  That's exactly the sort of thing.

This...this is going to be fun.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'm frankly a little bit scared about this role for PrCs. Even starting with the assumption that you shoot to make PrCs competitive with staying single-classed, you don't hit the target every time. You get outliers on both ends. If PrCs are just ability clusters, that's fine, but if they're supposed to represent specific organizations, you suddenly make it the case so that any member of a qualifying class now has a really strong mechanical incentive to be a member of the Order of the Purple Worm or whatever. People respond to mechanical incentives. This is arguably worse than the 3.5-style "you need this improbable combination of feats and skills in order to take this PrC, so plan out your character's mechanical progression from level one"; we're replacing that with "you need this improbable experience set and outlook in order to take this PrC, so plan out your character's story arc from level one." That's so much worse to me.

I'm actually curious about what they do with the results of the survey. Many of the most emblematic PrCs from 3.5 are not ones that have much in the way of specific story associated with them. (And where they do, it's largely totally forgettable; the descriptive text attached to most PrCs is worthless trash that everyone rightly ignores.)

I was surprised the extent to which I consider the DMG PrCs to be the most iconic, by a considerable margin, even though many of them are kind of bad.

EDIT: Geomancer? That PrC always seemed like a total cluster to me, like several different ideas were put into a blender and Geomancer is what kind of was smushed together out of the slurry at the end. It's got a few different ideas that are neat on their own but which have not a lot of clear mechanical or thematic connection.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
I assume they seperated them into lists so we vote and they take out the most popular from each list as the first PrC's they tackle in a future packet.

What does it say for the Assassin that it's one of the PrC's? Less of a chance for a full class? Too bad. 
I see it probably come in more like 4e paragon paths did. Kind of adding neat options to your character, possibly at the cost of an ability or two.
My two copper.
I'm frankly a little bit scared about this role for PrCs. Even starting with the assumption that you shoot to make PrCs competitive with staying single-classed, you don't hit the target every time. You get outliers on both ends. If PrCs are just ability clusters, that's fine, but if they're supposed to represent specific organizations, you suddenly make it the case so that any member of a qualifying class now has a really strong mechanical incentive to be a member of the Order of the Purple Worm or whatever.


The alternative is to not have any strong mechanical incentive to develop one's character's story in any way, and progress through the game as numbers on a sheet and not a living being.

I'll take this new version of PrCs, thanks.

(And where they do, it's largely totally forgettable; the descriptive text attached to most PrCs is worthless trash that everyone rightly ignores.)

Maybe I'm just an oddball in my approach to 3.5...but the fluff about them was some of the more exciting parts of it to me.  Despite me being a rampant CharOp build fiddler.  Particularly when I found a PrC that should have been cool, but for various mechanical reasons it just failed.  The reasons varied:  mechanics of the PrC itself, obnoxious/conflicting entry requirements, etc.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Prestige classes was a good idea but after there were too much, literally hundreds...

 https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc


* I like the idea of AD&D kit and character theme from 4th Ed..It would help feeling my character is different since first level, without waiting to level up until 5th or 10 th level.

* Some archetypes should be core classes or subclasses (a classic class with replaced/alternative class features) for example (Dark Sun) Gladiator, (Dragonlance) Knight and (Red Steel) Swashbuckler.

* I suggest a module about template classes, like articles "Savage Progression" from D&D web.



 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Prestige classes was a good idea but after there were too much, literally hundreds...

So?

Serious question here - why is this bad?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I'm frankly a little bit scared about this role for PrCs. Even starting with the assumption that you shoot to make PrCs competitive with staying single-classed, you don't hit the target every time. You get outliers on both ends. If PrCs are just ability clusters, that's fine, but if they're supposed to represent specific organizations, you suddenly make it the case so that any member of a qualifying class now has a really strong mechanical incentive to be a member of the Order of the Purple Worm or whatever.


The alternative is to not have any strong mechanical incentive to develop one's character's story in any way, and progress through the game as numbers on a sheet and not a living being.

I'll take this new version of PrCs, thanks.

That sounds really nice, but history and "everyone worships Tempus" syndrome suggest differently to me. I do think that it's GREAT if the game can figure out how to encourage characters to be someone and stand for something, but I think it's terrible if it can only figure out how to get everyone to stand for the same thing.

Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
3.5-style "you need this improbable combination of feats and skills in order to take this PrC, so plan out your character's mechanical progression from level one"; we're replacing that with "you need this improbable experience set and outlook in order to take this PrC, so plan out your character's story arc from level one." That's so much worse to me.

I could not agree more.

The alternative is to not have any strong mechanical incentive to develop one's character's story in any way, and progress through the game as numbers on a sheet and not a living being.

So what? If that's the way that people want to play, then what's the problem with letting them? A person who wants to role-play a story will role-play a story regardless of whether their mechanics tell them to or not, and a person who wants to just play a tactical number game will play a tactical number game regardless of whether their mechanics tell them to or not. What the mechanics definitely shouldn't be doing is trying to tell people how they should role-play or what their character's story should be. Having flavor to go along with prestige classes is totally fine, great even, but trying to pretend that the purpose of prestige classes isn't to be mechanical options for character customization is a mistake, and basing prestige classes off of flavor that should be mutable at the expense of focusing on having them provide cool new mechanics is an even bigger mistake.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Hopefully they will be like Star Wars PrC. Not evey Saga splatbook had a PrC and the ones that did only had 2-3 in them. Also the ones in the core book got future support related to them in various splats. 3rd ed ones were more or less love them and leave them.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Maybe I'm just an oddball in my approach to 3.5...but the fluff about them was some of the more exciting parts of it to me.  Despite me being a rampant CharOp build fiddler.  Particularly when I found a PrC that should have been cool, but for various mechanical reasons it just failed.  The reasons varied:  mechanics of the PrC itself, obnoxious/conflicting entry requirements, etc.



Are you me?

Without a doubt my favorites were eldritch theurge, blackguard, frenzied berserker, ur-priest, archmage, exotic weapon master, and assassin. Even if the blackguard had serious mechanical problems.
So are prestige classes the only thing in this packet or did they finally decide to fix the monster math?
basing prestige classes off of flavor that should be mutable at the expense of focusing on having them provide cool new mechanics is an even bigger mistake.


You did read the part where he said they'd provide guidance on how to pick apart and smash together the pieces of PrCs into new forms, right? 

There's no way to do that if you assume that the fluff also travels with those pieces.  The new whole has new whole fluff, but the idea that the fluff is important is still important to the new, mutated mechanics even though the originating fluff may not be.

And yes, we do have a model for a similar structure already in place:  specialties and backgrounds.  The specialties and backgrounds, themselves, have fluff associated with them.  Strongly associated with them.  Yet nobody pretends they're anything but mechanical character option delivery packages, and feels free to ignore the fluff of the specialty when using the "create your own" option by just picking feats or skills.  That's how PrCs are going to work - but the requirements are going to be story-driven. 

I honestly can't understand how anyone can fundamentally object to being encouraged to develop a general target for the story progression of one's character.  Sure, if you hate roleplaying and don't care, then, well...you won't care, you'll ignore the fluff, and be on your merry way, happy that they gave some pointless fluff entry requirements you can simply ignore rather than pointless mechanical entry requirements that your playstyle won't let you ignore.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
So are prestige classes the only thing in this packet or did they finally decide to fix the monster math?


I'd be shocked if they were in the packet, given the nature of the article and the poll.  Much more forward-looking. 

As far as what's in the packet, nobody knows since it's not out yet.  Check back later today.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
So are prestige classes the only thing in this packet or did they finally decide to fix the monster math?


I'd be shocked if they were in the packet, given the nature of the article and the poll.  Much more forward-looking. 

As far as what's in the packet, nobody knows since it's not out yet.  Check back later today.



I ask because our DM refuses to run the play test until they fix the monster math, or at least change it. He says they can't get feedback until they can tell how characters fare against equal opponents or something like that. In our last session the wizard didn't even have to cast a daily spell the entire time. They just cast at wills and signature spells because the monsters were so weak. That's including a green dragon too. I agree with him. If there is no challenge, there is no point in playing.
Prestige classes was a good idea but after there were too much, literally hundreds...

So?

Serious question here - why is this bad?



Agreed. I love 4th's Paragon Paths but the prestige classes of 3.5 were exciting in their sheer number.

I honestly can't understand how anyone can fundamentally object to being encouraged to develop a general target for the story progression of one's character.  Sure, if you hate roleplaying and don't care, then, well...you won't care, you'll ignore the fluff, and be on your merry way, happy that they gave some pointless fluff entry requirements you can simply ignore rather than pointless mechanical entry requirements that your playstyle won't let you ignore.



This.
You did read the part where he said they'd provide guidance on how to pick apart and smash together the pieces of PrCs into new forms, right?

I did, and I do not think that that's particularly relevant. Any form of material that's basically "advice on how to homebrew (or fix what we should have gotten right the first time)" is something that I'm just not interested in hearing as an excuse.

The specialties and backgrounds, themselves, have fluff associated with them.  Strongly associated with them.

I do not think that this is true, certainly not in the same way that Prestige Classes seem to be being discussed and certainly not taking into account have feats and prestige classes have been done in the past with regards to what's more fluff-focused and what's more crunch-focused.
EDIT: Oh, and in relation to backgrounds, yes, I do think that it's a problem that the trait they offer is always some weird fluff construct.

I honestly can't understand how anyone can fundamentally object to being encouraged to develop a general target for the story progression of one's character.

Because it's not the place of the mechanics to tell me how I should role-play my character or what my character's story should be.

Sure, if you hate roleplaying and don't care, then, well...you won't care, you'll ignore the fluff, and be on your merry way, happy that they gave some pointless fluff entry requirements you can simply ignore rather than pointless mechanical entry requirements that your playstyle won't let you ignore.

Sounds like a false dilemma. I'd much prefer that we have neither pointless fluff entry requirements nor pointless mechanical entry requirements.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I'd like to see a real example of a prestige class before I make a judgement on it. To me, the fluff requirements aren't going to be hardwired into the class such as "you must kill 5 goblins before you can take a level of Goblin-Slayer PrC." And of course fluff can/should be mutable or changed based on PC and DMs working together.
I dont think there was one section in that survey that I could pick three prcs that I actually liked.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

I dont think there was one section in that survey that I could pick three prcs that I actually liked.

hmm. I had several sections I would have liked a 4th or 5th pick.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Ideally normally you become a member of a prestige class, by working towards it. Or you could happen to qualify by chance. Either way, you should be able to enter at any point in your career and feel rewarded.

I like the warhammer fantasy 2nd? edition approach, where you needed to get the equippment of the new class to be able to enter. Sounds like a good start.
* I like the idea of AD&D kit and character theme from 4th Ed..It would help feeling my character is different since first level, without waiting to level up until 5th or 10 th level.

I liked the kits, too, and I mentioned them in the Comments section of the survey. Sometimes the player wants to give the character a specific direction right at Level 1, and sometimes it's more appropriate for the PC to "grow" into the PrC. I'd like to see both options possible.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Can anyone tell me why, when I go to download the newest packet, I keep getting the 11/13/12 packet instead?  I have to assume the problem is me, but I've never had any issues with this before.
Can anyone tell me why, when I go to download the newest packet, I keep getting the 11/13/12 packet instead?  I have to assume the problem is me, but I've never had any issues with this before.

The new packet isn't out yet. It's just coming out some time today.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Can anyone tell me why, when I go to download the newest packet, I keep getting the 11/13/12 packet instead?  I have to assume the problem is me, but I've never had any issues with this before.

The new packet isn't out yet. It's just coming out some time today.

Right you are.  Thanks.  In my excitement, I only skimmed  the thread, so it looked like everyone had already read it.
Can anyone tell me why, when I go to download the newest packet, I keep getting the 11/13/12 packet instead?  I have to assume the problem is me, but I've never had any issues with this before.

Have you gotten the new e-mail today? If not, the link will go to the previous packet.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Have you gotten the new e-mail today? If not, the link will go to the previous packet.

What? Are you syaing that the e-mail has been sent to only some people and only they can currently download the current packet?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Have you gotten the new e-mail today? If not, the link will go to the previous packet.

What? Are you syaing that the e-mail has been sent to only some people and only they can currently download the current packet?

Nope, not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you haven't gotten the e-mail for the new packet, the link in the old e-mail will take you to the old packet, not to the new.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Nope, not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you haven't gotten the e-mail for the new packet, the link in the old e-mail will take you to the old packet, not to the new.

What are you talking about? Download the packet from the e-mail? Why wouldn't people just do it from the site itself?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Nope, not saying that at all. I'm saying that if you haven't gotten the e-mail for the new packet, the link in the old e-mail will take you to the old packet, not to the new.

What are you talking about? Download the packet from the e-mail? Why wouldn't people just do it from the site itself?

Mearls says in the article:

"The packet will be available at some point during the day, and if you're signed up for the playtest, you should receive an email."

My e-mails usually include a link and that's how I proceed. YMMV.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

Sign In to post comments