_ is to Vintage as Modern is to Legacy

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I think that the Modern format is a very good thing for Magic, as it's a fun and accessible format.

I don't know if there is "room" for another format, but there is one function it doesn't perform that I think is beneficial both for many Magic players and for Wizards itself - it will help sell booster packs.

A format that is like Modern, except that it has only a restricted list and not a banned list, is an accessible opportunity to make use of your Jace, the Mind Sculptor or your Tarmogoyf. Some people ask why Wizards should care about cards retaining their secondary market value - arguing for the original duals to be reprinted. Well, they care because if people can still sell their cards when they rotate out of Standard - if Standard is what they're interested in - they'll feel better about buying cards to use in Standard.

And if they get their chase rares on the secondary market, those chase rares still had to come from booster packs in the first place.

While if such a format were implemented, it would probably have the same starting point as Modern to reduce confusion, I have to admit I'd prefer an earlier one - why shouldn't Jace and Tarmogoyf have to face a rootin'-tootin' format with Counterspell and Dark Ritual out there too?

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Unreserved.  The Reserved List is the initial banlist.

Or just Masques4, where core sets go back to 4E and expansions go back to Masques.  Masques6, if we want to synchronize them for some reason.
The first question is whether such a format would be unique enough to warrant a separation from Modern. As strong as the cards on the Modern banned list may be, they don't hold a candle to the type of cards that landed on the Vintage restricted list, where even one in a deck makes a huge impact. And of course those one-ofs in Vintage are aided-and-abetted by cheap tutors.

Normal disclaimer: I don't play constructed, but I have a pretty keen sense of WotC positions and motivations.

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CASUAL is to Vintage what Modern is to Legacy.
Part of the point of Vintage is that you can play with any card that isn't disruptive to a tournament setting, if you restrict it to modern or whatever then that's mostly irrelevant.

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I think they could do modern better if they added a restricted list in addition to the ban list. With that said I don't think think there would be enough variance to have two modern formats one with a banned list and another with a restricted list.
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The first question is whether such a format would be unique enough to warrant a separation from Modern. As strong as the cards on the Modern banned list may be, they don't hold a candle to the type of cards that landed on the Vintage restricted list, where even one in a deck makes a huge impact.

That's very true, but I don't see how it impinges on my rationale for the format (of course, the rationale may be flawed).

The cards on the Modern banned list certainly aren't comparable to the Power 9. That's precisely why I think that people shouldn't have to invest in things like a set of the original duals so they can play Legacy in order to use them.

Just as Vintage gives P9 owners a chance to play those cards officially, an accessible format where cards like Tarmogoyf and JTMS are legal says to Magic players that buying Magic cards isn't a waste of money - their value doesn't evaporate.

Unlike Modern - more like Vintage than Legacy - the format mostly just has to exist; it doesn't need a great deal of support  from Wizards, although I hope it might get some from the dealers.

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That's very true, but I don't see how it impinges on my rationale for the format (of course, the rationale may be flawed).

The cards on the Modern banned list certainly aren't comparable to the Power 9. That's precisely why I think that people shouldn't have to invest in things like a set of the original duals so they can play Legacy in order to use them.

Just as Vintage gives P9 owners a chance to play those cards officially, an accessible format where cards like Tarmogoyf and JTMS are legal says to Magic players that buying Magic cards isn't a waste of money - their value doesn't evaporate.

Unlike Modern - more like Vintage than Legacy - the format mostly just has to exist; it doesn't need a great deal of support  from Wizards, although I hope it might get some from the dealers.


If a format exists and no one plays it, does it impact the secondary market?

In order for a format to be worth even a small amount of resources, it needs to be substantially different than something that exists. I'm not saying a restricted-Modern wouldn't, but given the facts I laid out in my first post, the odds are against it. 

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Goyf is legal in Modern, just saying.
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I think the answer is that Legacy is to Vintage as Modern is to Legacy....

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Ok, now imagine a format whose ratio of players to vintage players was equal to that of modern players to legacy players. 

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I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
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CASUAL is to Vintage what Modern is to Legacy.


That's rather extreme, especially when you take into consideration what I call "Hyper Casualism" (EDH, PlaneChase, Un-cards, etc).

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If a format exists and no one plays it, does it impact the secondary market?

A very good point, well stated.

Your original point, that restricting cards might not be appropriate for dealing with cards like JTMS and Tarmogoyf, may well have been completely valid; my criticism was only that it was tangential.

The reason why I'm expecting a format such as the one I'm proposing as likely to be popular even with limited support, despite your objection that it isn't all that much "different" from Modern, is that I'm seeing the space between formats differently due to a different focus.

Magic: the Gathering is a game, and, therefore, it's first and foremost for playing. But because it's a CCG or TCG, the element of money intrudes into gameplay itself - particularly for players of more modest means. So this is why one sees in these forums constant gripes about how Mythic Rares are some kind of rip-off, or that Wizards should reprint the original duals, and so on and so forth.

So looking at it from the perspective of players' investment in cards, I felt that it was clearly a problem when cards are expensive, players feel they need them to compete in Standard, and then the bottom falls out because when they rotate out, there's nowhere to play them except in the stratospheric heights of Vintage and Legacy.

A strict banlist means that while Modern supplies an accessible and fun way to play Magic, it doesn't do anything about that issue.

I think that it's a sufficiently important issue, impinging on the satisfaction of many Magic players, that it's worth addressing - but I don't want to ask Wizards to put a lot of money and effort into a new format if I'm mistaken. This is why I've suggested merely recognizing the format, without specific support (but I was thinking that dealers would have the option of holding sanctioned events in that format as they felt like, not including FNM, so I did not mean it would be debarred from support). Let it be a choice available to dealers and players, and let the interest from the player community determine how it fares.

One of the concerns I have is that once Magic players leave high school and similar settings, getting together with friends for a game takes a degree of organization and advance planning that it might not work out for those whose co-workers, for example, don't play Magic. That, plus the fundamental issue of lacking a solid definition, is why I think that while casual play is a good option, it doesn't work out as well as one might like for many people. (The latter issue is avoided when people get together for informal play - but they're still playing by the rules of a specific format. When people play chess - or Monopoly - at home, they're often still playing intensely to win, after all, and some advocates of casual play seem to be expecting things to be different with Magic.)

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

....
So looking at it from the perspective of players' investment in cards, I felt that it was clearly a problem when cards are expensive, players feel they need them to compete in Standard, and then the bottom falls out because when they rotate out, there's nowhere to play them except in the stratospheric heights of Vintage and Legacy
....



I think the problem here is that you believe Legacy is comparable in price to Vintage.  You can easily make a Legacy deck for the same prices that people are spending on Standard and Modern decks.

Sure you arent going to be competing with it against pro players, but the vast majority of players will never be competing at that level anyways.  You could certainly play a budget deck at local tournaments or GPTs while slowly improving your deck over time (you can take your time since it isnt going to rotate away).

Too many people seem to think they need to build a top8 RUG deck right out of the gate.  Some of those decks dont even do that great if other local players are all running crazy rogue stuff.  Start with one of the competitive mono-color decks and build from there.

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Comments or suggestions are always welcome

Modern
nothing at the moment

Too many people seem to think they need to build a top8 RUG deck right out of the gate.  Some of those decks dont even do that great if other local players are all running crazy rogue stuff.  Start with one of the competitive mono-color decks and build from there.



I put up a ridiculously good fight against a RUG delver deck using some janky casual Boros deck made almost entirely out of the Ravnica fatpack's boosters I had bought way back when. I still lost, but but when you make someone feel threated by Boros Recruits, its a good day.
Your original point, that restricting cards might not be appropriate for dealing with cards like JTMS and Tarmogoyf, may well have been completely valid; my criticism was only that it was tangential.


That was never my point. My point is that the format has to play sufficiently different from Modern for anyone to even care.

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"While a picture is worth a thousand words, each lolcat actually produces a negative wordcount." -Ith "I think "Highly Informed Sarcasm" should be our Magic Online General motto." -Ith "Sorry, but this thread seems just like spam. TT is for off-topic discussion, not no-topic discussion." -WizO_Kwai_Chang "Stop that! If you're not careful, rational thinking may catch on!" -Sax "... the only word i see that fits is incompitant." -Mr44 (sic) "You know a thread is gonna be locked when it gets to the hexadecimal stage." -Gathion "It's a good gig" - Gleemax "I tell people often, if you guys want to rant, you've certainly got the right to (provided you obey CoC/ToS stuff), and I don't even really blame you. But if you see something you think needs changing a well thought-out, constructive post does more to make that happen." - Worth Wollpert
I think the problem here is that you believe Legacy is comparable in price to Vintage.  You can easily make a Legacy deck for the same prices that people are spending on Standard and Modern decks.

I agree that Vintage is much more expensive than Legacy. And that Standard is expensive over time, and ultimately is as expensive or more than playing Legacy. But I don't think that this second fact overrules the fact that many people will find the initial expense in starting Legacy daunting.

My point is that the format has to play sufficiently different from Modern for anyone to even care.

Well, I think I have addressed that point. It is true that Vintage plays much different from Legacy, and the difference between the format I am proposing and Modern may not be so large.

To the extent that they are different play-wise, Modern probably would be much better, just as Legacy is better than Vintage, and for the same reason. A format where every deck has one Skullclamp, one Tarmogoyf, and one Jace, the Mind Sculptor would have stereotyped play.

My answer to that objection is that people enjoy an opportunity to make use of the cards in their collection, which is why Vintage exists. Collecting gives Magic another dimension beyond just the play itself that we can't forget.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

There's nothing stopping you from playing whatever format you desire with your friends. The question at hand is whether your new theoretical format would differ enough from Modern for it to draw a different audience. The point about relative power level of Modern nbanned cards is important: If there's not much difference between the two, the audience is almost the same and you end up splitting the player base.

Right now Modern is just starting to take off. Maybe years down the line when Modern is well entrenched as a core format there will be room to begin building official variations, but creating a nearly identical format right now would likely kill the momentum Modern has by splitting the player base down the middle. 
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Right now Modern is just starting to take off. Maybe years down the line when Modern is well entrenched as a core format there will be room to begin building official variations, but creating a nearly identical format right now would likely kill the momentum Modern has by splitting the player base down the middle.

Uh, okay. In that case, you win.

I had been imagining that, although Modern was recently introduced, because it so clearly met a real need, and was so much more accessible than any other format - coupled with Wizards basically withdrawing support from Extended in its favor, and allowing Modern in FNM - that by now it was a raging success. (And because you don't need as many cards from the current set to build Modern decks as Standard decks, Wizards was facing pain on its balance sheets due to decreased booster pack sales - perhaps offset by an influx of new players because Magic was now more affordable, although my suspicion is that the pain would come before the gain.)

Absent that, indeed, such a new format would be premature, even if a good idea in the longer run.

Incidentally, to correct any possible misapprehension regarding my misapprehension - I was just expecting Modern to be a raging success by now in physical card Magic. In MTG Online, on the other hand, where people would need to buy cards for it, rather than being able to play in many cases with the cards they already had, I would expect Modern to face a much longer road to popularity.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

Right now Modern is just starting to take off. Maybe years down the line when Modern is well entrenched as a core format there will be room to begin building official variations, but creating a nearly identical format right now would likely kill the momentum Modern has by splitting the player base down the middle.

Uh, okay. In that case, you win.

I had been imagining that, although Modern was recently introduced, because it so clearly met a real need, and was so much more accessible than any other format - coupled with Wizards basically withdrawing support from Extended in its favor, and allowing Modern in FNM - that by now it was a raging success. (And because you don't need as many cards from the current set to build Modern decks as Standard decks, Wizards was facing pain on its balance sheets due to decreased booster pack sales - perhaps offset by an influx of new players because Magic was now more affordable, although my suspicion is that the pain would come before the gain.)

Absent that, indeed, such a new format would be premature, even if a good idea in the longer run.

Incidentally, to correct any possible misapprehension regarding my misapprehension - I was just expecting Modern to be a raging success by now in physical card Magic. In MTG Online, on the other hand, where people would need to buy cards for it, rather than being able to play in many cases with the cards they already had, I would expect Modern to face a much longer road to popularity.



Modern has the problem of Legacy existing and just honestly being a more interesting format to play in.  Modern might be a bit cheaper, but that only pulls in people from the fringes of Standard, not people who were already playing eternal formats.  I know in my area most of us just see it as a stop along the road for us to use to get players moving from Standard towards Legacy.  A lot of the Modern staples are even Legacy staples as well.

Pretty sure extended was already pretty dead before WOTC finished it off.

Current decks
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Modern
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Modern has the problem of Legacy existing and just honestly being a more interesting format to play in.  Modern might be a bit cheaper, but that only pulls in people from the fringes of Standard, not people who were already playing eternal formats.


Well, Modern can continue to have that problem; I remember a lot of anxiety from people who were afraid that Modern would kill Legacy at the time it was introduced.

In other areas, though, the few people with an interest in Legacy find it difficult to find events or opponents, and some of them blame Wizards' inability/refusal to reprint the original duals for this. Now, their perspective may be flawed - I think Wizards' can't afford to dump the Reprint Policy, even if changing it again to allow less important cards to be reprinted might make sense - but I had thought the complaint had enough validity that Modern would fill a real need.

Given that it's also been said, on the other side of that argument, that Legacy is cheaper than Standard, I figured that Modern would be the least expensive Constructed format, thus bringing more people into Magic as a whole. But one would have to have researched Magic to know about it.

Coming up with weird ideas to make everyone happy since 2008!

 

I have now started a blog as an appropriate place to put my crazy ideas.

Modern is to Legacy, what Legacy is to Vintage.

Think about it and come back to me.