If I understand correctly, 5e is E6 stretched over 20 levels?

Title says it all.
Which is nigh useless if people don't go to other D20 forums.  For those of you who may not know, 'E6' is a house modded 3.x system that literally stops at level 6.  The only thing that you get after reacing 6th level, I believe, is feats.

Magic stops, hit points stop, skill progression stops.

Which is actually pretty functional (assuming you modify the monsters you want down, or never use them, again, fully viable play style.)

So armed with this knowledge, I say I am assuming that the current DDN goal is similar, but there are some massive tweaks in store, namely Expertise Dice (at the moment.) 
Playtest only goes to level 10, and according to the devs it might stay that way. So it might be E10.
My two copper.
Playtest only goes to level 10, and according to the devs it might stay that way.

Got a source ? Which developper said that ?

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

In fact what was said was that they considered stopping at 10 and rejected the idea. So no, it will not stop at 10.

Edit: the relevant L&L article is here: www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
Playtest only goes to level 10, and according to the devs it might stay that way. So it might be E10.

They arn't stopping at 10.

However, they want a different sort of scaling beyond 10.  Instead of just inflating HP and damage.

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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

D&D Next is not E6 nor E10.

The progression is slower but there is no mention of it suddenly stopping. In fact, Mike Mearls stated in a Legends & Lore article that characters will still advance past level 10.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Title says it all.



With the deflated numbers, minimal gains through progression, and the relative power level of PCs vs. Monsters... I think it's a good analogy. I happen to like E6 though Laughing.  I don't, however, think it'll stay that way as we'll get more levels and more powerful spells and HPs of monsters/PC will inflate over time and I'm sure we'll see some artifacts and supreme magical items (which only insane DMs will incorporate into the games).
In fact what was said was that they considered stopping at 10 and rejected the idea. So no, it will not stop at 10.

Edit: the relevant L&L article is here: www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...


Thank you Quasadu, that's what i recalled too.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

Prestige Classing was originally planned as a module for DDN IIRC.  Which would thankfully make it much more than E6 as I understand it.
Playtest only goes to level 10, and according to the devs it might stay that way.

Got a source ? Which developper said that ?




In some article or other they said they had debated it. 
Lol, Doh, totally forgot about MM's response talking about going above 10 XD Don't mind me, carry on.
My two copper.
Lol, Doh, totally forgot about MM's response talking about going above 10 XD Don't mind me, carry on.



Heh.  No worries!  I can't remember everything said anymore myself.  Too much to keep track of.
ATM its probably more like E6 stretched over 10 levels.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

 
However, they want a different sort of scaling beyond 10.  Instead of just inflating HP and damage.



If the progression from 1 to 10 is just inflating hp and damage... thats pretty pittiful too.
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One of the goals of 4e was actually to take the "sweet spot" - roughly between levels 4 and 10 or so, although people disagree slightly about exactly where it falls - and spread that feeling further out. The sweet-spot feeling I believe is most defined by the game's math actually working right, combats being relatively dynamic back-and-forths, magic being clearly present and very potent but merely very potent, magic items being a feature of the game but not something that you had just a jillion of, classes being clearly distinguished from each other, and enough character customization available to give individual characters some mechanical distinctness as well. 4e clearly didn't pursue all of these goals (the magic item one, for example), and you can debate the extent to which it was actually successful in propegating the sweet spot across the whole span of the game, but the idea of taking the part of the game that actually functions best and making the whole game like that isn't new.
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Title says it all.

quite probably an an accurate assessment, yes.

Title says it all.

quite probably an an accurate assessment, yes.



Oh you silly bunny. ;)
Slower math is harmless.
It's dead levels that piss me off.
Honestly, I think comparison to e6 is a compliment - it was meant as such, right?

E6 is the only way I would consider running a 3e game again.  Even with a heavily house-ruled and homebrewed 3e, I would still really only consider running e6.  I'm actually kind of interested in importing Combat Superiority from 5ePlaytestPacket2 into the 3.5 Fighter, and running an e6 campaign with that.
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Honestly, I think comparison to e6 is a compliment - it was meant as such, right?

E6 is the only way I would consider running a 3e game again.  Even with a heavily house-ruled and homebrewed 3e, I would still really only consider running e6.  I'm actually kind of interested in importing Combat Superiority from 5ePlaytestPacket2 into the 3.5 Fighter, and running an e6 campaign with that.



I doubt it was meant that way.

E6 only exists because 3.x was a horribly balanced system, so bad that for many to find it playable you have to take 20 levels and par it down to only a few, or in E6's case 1.

E6 is very limited, your character never increaese his power by a great amount, any game that feels like it failed in a basic way because the power level never changes and you never get anything really new.
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E6 is very limited, your character never increaese his power by a great amount, any game that feels like it failed in a basic way because the power level never changes and you never get anything really new.

The concession of E6 is that not everyone believes that huge jumps in power are a mandatory part of the game experience.  We already know that this is the case, as there are many other games that run on a similar model.

Really, E6 only fails at being a level-based game, but no moreso than the old ten-level game once you reached level 10, or even 4E once you reached level 30.  I could see how it might be considered an insult, if you strongly believe that levels and power gain are the most important parts of the D&D experience; if you just wanted to play a relatively complete character, gaining small bonuses on top of that strongly-defined base, then E6 does a fairly decent job of that.

The metagame is not the game.

E6 is very limited, your character never increaese his power by a great amount, any game that feels like it failed in a basic way because the power level never changes and you never get anything really new.

The concession of E6 is that not everyone believes that huge jumps in power are a mandatory part of the game experience.  We already know that this is the case, as there are many other games that run on a similar model.

Really, E6 only fails at being a level-based game, but no moreso than the old ten-level game once you reached level 10, or even 4E once you reached level 30.  I could see how it might be considered an insult, if you strongly believe that levels and power gain are the most important parts of the D&D experience; if you just wanted to play a relatively complete character, gaining small bonuses on top of that strongly-defined base, then E6 does a fairly decent job of that.

For me, I feel Prestige Classes go a long ways towards making a 3.x character "complete".  E6 actively prevents me from making a complete character in many ways.  It isn't about the levels or power gain so much as the lack of versatility that E6 creates that is the problem.  Many of the plethora of 3.X base classes only "come into their own" once a Prestige Class is added to them IMO.
One of 3.5's great tragedies is that so much of its coolest material (PrCs, for example), was published to only be usable at levels that happen after most people abandon campaigns. It's not useless, of course; over the course of 3.5's lifespan I'm sure that thousands of campaigns ran up into the levels requires to capstone out PrCs, but most do not. (Far, far fewer than I would have expected.) It borders on heartbreaking to look at a neat PrC only to realize that its coolest elements are largely pointless by the time you get them at level 16 or whatever.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
For me, I feel Prestige Classes go a long ways towards making a 3.x character "complete".  E6 actively prevents me from making a complete character in many ways.  It isn't about the levels or power gain so much as the lack of versatility that E6 creates that is the problem.  Many of the plethora of 3.X base classes only "come into their own" once a Prestige Class is added to them IMO.

So it's the 6 that bothers you, rather than then E?  If every Prestige Class could be entered at level 6, and would be complete at level 10, would you have play E10?

One of my favorite things about 3.X, at least in theory, is how you can build your own character by mixing and matching levels of different classes.  That's not something you can really do before level 4, though, and multi-class concepts really start to fall behind in power as you move past level 6.  For me, the concept of E6 - what it means for power levels and relative growth - is a huge benefit to a system, as long as it's implemented well and doesn't prevent character concepts from being played.

The metagame is not the game.

Not really.
E6 is rapid advancement for six levels and then very limited advancement afterwards, essentially plateauing.
5e has slower advancement for every level that continues upward consistantly. 

Power level in baseline 5e is lower that other prior editions.
But it would be super easy to add a couple Hit Dice and extra damage at level one for a higher power game. As the math is still solid and expected damage  is set, you can pick the power level.

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For me, I feel Prestige Classes go a long ways towards making a 3.x character "complete".  E6 actively prevents me from making a complete character in many ways.  It isn't about the levels or power gain so much as the lack of versatility that E6 creates that is the problem.  Many of the plethora of 3.X base classes only "come into their own" once a Prestige Class is added to them IMO.

So it's the 6 that bothers you, rather than then E?  If every Prestige Class could be entered at level 6, and would be complete at level 10, would you have play E10?

One of my favorite things about 3.X, at least in theory, is how you can build your own character by mixing and matching levels of different classes.  That's not something you can really do before level 4, though, and multi-class concepts really start to fall behind in power as you move past level 6.  For me, the concept of E6 - what it means for power levels and relative growth - is a huge benefit to a system, as long as it's implemented well and doesn't prevent character concepts from being played.

I'd be much happier with something like E10, yes. 

While I enjoy play above tenth level and having power progression, as a gamer my issue with E6 is the frequent inability to complete my character concept by 6th level.  I can get over high level spells or over the top gameplay.  I can't get over "you can't play that here, the rules don't allow it.".
Honestly, I think comparison to e6 is a compliment - it was meant as such, right?


Hahaha! No, not at all. 
When DMing 3.5 I only run E6 gestalt.

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Slower math is harmless.
It's dead levels that piss me off.


This is my worry.  Dead levels are dull.  And I'd rather not have to fill them with 'loot' to compensate.
One of the goals of 4e was actually to take the "sweet spot" - roughly between levels 4 and 10 or so, although people disagree slightly about exactly where it falls - and spread that feeling further out. The sweet-spot feeling I believe is most defined by the game's math actually working right, combats being relatively dynamic back-and-forths, magic being clearly present and very potent but merely very potent, magic items being a feature of the game but not something that you had just a jillion of, classes being clearly distinguished from each other, and enough character customization available to give individual characters some mechanical distinctness as well. 4e clearly didn't pursue all of these goals (the magic item one, for example), and you can debate the extent to which it was actually successful in propegating the sweet spot across the whole span of the game, but the idea of taking the part of the game that actually functions best and making the whole game like that isn't new.

It's relatively new to D&D.  Prior to 4e, D&D didn't stop at 10th level, but it did stop working somewhere around there.  

Classic D&D, as a bonus, didn't really /start/ working until you'd gained a level or few.  The 'sweet spot' was debateable - I'd've called it 3rd-7th, myself - but, though its boundaries might have been fuzzy, it was a very real phenomenon.  Ironically, in AD&D, level gain tended to be very slow the first two levels, then speed up to about 8th, then grind to a halt, so not only was there a limited number of levels that were genuinely fun and playable, you tended not to spend as much time in them as you did trudging through the lowest levels to get there, or beating against the quarter-to-half-million exp you needed for each of your higher levels.  

Stopping 5e at 10th level probably wouldn't hurt, and the alternative is probably to have it fall apart at some higher level (posibly 10th or higher, possibly lower), just like it used to.  Afterall, 5e is trying so very hard to re-capture the feel of traditional D&D, and part of that was the feel of the game falling apart somewhere in the low double digit levels...

 

 

 

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Afterall, 5e is trying so very hard to re-capture the feel of traditional D&D, and part of that was the feel of the game falling apart somewhere in the low double digit levels...

There has been some indication that they're willing to ditch the old-school feel where they believe that can get the majority on their side.  Bounded Accuracy is certainly an attempt at this, and "game doesn't break down" seems like something that would gain even more support than that.

The metagame is not the game.

Capping out at 10 levels would be great. It would put Balors, Pit Fiends and Red Dragons at the top of 10th level. I could dig a system like that- sorta like Gamma World.
Capping out at 10 levels would be great. It would put Balors, Pit Fiends and Red Dragons at the top of 10th level. I could dig a system like that- sorta like Gamma World.



10 levels seams a bit small to go from the best in your village to killing gods. I would say 15-20 would be the lease number of levels you can go and not have problems
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes. Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
True- 15-20 makes sense and 1-10 is a bit on the short stick. However- if you make the difference between levels greater you can still squeeze it in 10 levels. Add Epic for levels 10-15 and call it a day.
Looks like 1-10 is the main focus, 11+ will be epic?

That's always how I've seen it.  Once you can bring people back from the dead, it kind of shifts the whole tone of the campaign.

The metagame is not the game.

As a side note, I included Prestige "classes" of a sort in E6. But they take the form of feats. Basically you can become a paragon of your class (taking specific class-based "epic feats") or taking Prestige Feats (of which you can 4 out of 6 choices). Actually, I wanna run E6 again real soon.
Looks like 1-10 is the main focus, 11+ will be epic?

That's always how I've seen it.  Once you can bring people back from the dead, it kind of shifts the whole tone of the campaign.





Yes, but I think that's the official stance for 5th Ed (and things will not scale the same post 10th level, etc).



 THey mentioned they considered it. IDK if they confirmed it or not.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Looks like 1-10 is the main focus, 11+ will be epic?



if you liked Marvel Super Heroes, then Rank 3 is typical while Rank 10 is Unearthly;

if you use ( something I doubt lol ) my BASE Rankings, then


Rank title
10    Cosmic
 9     Godly
 8     Legendary
 7     (Olym)pic
 6     Superb
 5     Excellent
 4     Good
 3     Typical
 2     Low
 1     Weak

Score                   BASE
             2  3  4   5   6   7
  1         1   1  1   1   1   1
  2         2   2  2   2   2   2
  3         4   3  3   3   3   3
  4        ---  4  4   4   4   4
  5        ---  6  6   5   5   5
  6        ---  9  8   6   6   6
  7        --- --- 9   8   8   7
  8        --- -- 12   9   9   8
  9        --- -- 16  10 10  9
10        --- -- ---  12 12  10
11        --- -- ---  15 15  12
12        --- -- ---  16 16  14
13        --- -- ---  20 18  15
14        --- -- ---  25 20  16
15        --- -- --- ---- 24  18
16        --- -- --- ---- 25  20
17        --- -- --- ---- 30  21
18        --- -- --- ---- 36  24
19        --- -- --- ---- ---  25
20        --- -- --- ---- ---  28
21        --- -- --- ---- ---  30
22        --- -- --- ---- ---  35
23        --- -- --- ---- ---  36
24        --- -- --- ---- ---  42
25        --- -- --- ---- ---  49
26        --- -- --- ---- --- ----
27
28
29
30    

how to use the table:  multiply two subabilities each Ranking 1 to 10

say you have Olympic ( 7 ) muscles and Good ( 4 ) stamina (two subabilities from Strength)
            
the BASE to be used is the upper subability from your 12


let's say your best stat is a 7


then multiply 7 by 4 = 28 in BASE 7 depreciated ===> 20              

note that the maximums from each BASE are:

BASE  Max value
1           1
2           3
3           6
4           9
5          14
6          18
7          25
8          30
9          36
10        42


so to run a beginners' game you could limit BASE to 6 to build up stats upto 18