More then 1 way to train a skill.

A lot of discussion is based around skill training, and the only concenus seems to be is that different people have different expectations.  Some want to eliminate risk with training.  Some people want greater possibility with training and still risk failure.

So why is there only 1 way to train skills?  Let the player decide what fits his character best.


Here's some example options.

Option A: You have a minimum roll of 6/8/10/12 on the d20.  (better min).
Option B: Add 1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 to your skill rolls.  (better max).
Option C: You gain +3/4/5/6 to a skill.  (better min and max).
Optino D: Roll 2d20/3d20/4d20 and take the highest.  (better average). *

I could also see a possibility of mixing them.

*D doesn't quite match the math of the rest.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

My all time favorite skill mechanic was West End Games Star Wars; your skill might be 3d6, so you roll 3d6 and try to beat the DC. As you gain exp you add dice, so a level 3 character would roll 4d6 and try to beat the DC.

Using a bell curve for skill checks is good because you can reach into higher realms of DC quickly, but only have a small chance to actually make the roll.

And it feels like you are getting better (because there are more dice in your hand) but statistically the progress is very moderate. 

Are you suggesting that the player has the option to choose how they will quantify an increase in a skill? That is an interesting idea. All the different options could be entered into an spreadsheet so that they could be kept close to each other as far as realized gains. The min-maxers would have a field day optimizing which system to use with which skill for each different char class. I love it. Great idea.


I’m not going to put that spreadsheet together though =-P

The problem with mix and matching training options is that it has huge repercussions on what appropriate DCs should be.  In an option A world, a DC 25 is still "nearly impossible," while in an option B world  it's actually pretty easy for a trained character (comparatively, anyway).  So if your players mostly go with option A or D, you should only put up DC 25 obstacles in your adventure if you don't intend your players to overcome it, while in an option B or C table such a DC is a moment for a highly trained character to shine and should be added freely.

That, and added complexity.

That said, I'm liking option B (which is pretty much equivalent to eh SWd6 system).  It has the nice effect of dramatically increasing the realm of possibility - letting a highly trained character succeed on things that a lesser character had no chance at - without (as) dramatically increasing the average so that untrained characters can still participate in the moderate-difficult checks.
So why is there only 1 way to train skills?  Let the player decide what fits his character best.

It complicates the game for little advantage. If you allow for multiple skill bonuses, everything in the game that adjusts skills or depends on skills has to consider every possible type of skill bonus. Every type of bonus you allow creates another window for min/maxing, another factor that has to be balanced against everything else.

Taking your example, options A, B and C might be balanced on their own, but options A and B interact differently with re-rolling. Option A means there is no risk if roll less then your minimum, so you can risk re-rolling even if you rolled fairly well as long as it is below your minimum. Option B acts very oddly unless the rules are carefully written to account for both dice, and likely differently depending on the exact wording of the rule.

Finding the right balance between having enough complexity so the game has depth and can represent a large range of skill levels, while staying simple enough to be fast and easy to understand, is often the hard part of game design.

The problem with mix and matching training options is that it has huge repercussions on what appropriate DCs should be.  In an option A world, a DC 25 is still "nearly impossible," while in an option B world  it's actually pretty easy for a trained character (comparatively, anyway).  So if your players mostly go with option A or D, you should only put up DC 25 obstacles in your adventure if you don't intend your players to overcome it, while in an option B or C table such a DC is a moment for a highly trained character to shine and should be added freely.

True.  Mix and match may not work.  Then again, if someone want's to be super-awseom at 1 thing, why not?

That said, I'm liking option B

And someone else might like option A.

That's why i'm suggesting a choice.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So why is there only 1 way to train skills?  Let the player decide what fits his character best.

It complicates the game for little advantage. If you allow for multiple skill bonuses, everything in the game that adjusts skills or depends on skills has to consider every possible type of skill bonus. Every type of bonus you allow creates another window for min/maxing, another factor that has to be balanced against everything else.

Meh.  It's not hard math to balance numbers.  Though D might not work out too well.  Of course, someone else might have a differnt way to do this too.


And as long as it's presented clearly, i don't see it adding much complexity.

Skill Reliability: You focus on the basics, eliminating the risk of failing even under stress. (option A)
Skill Training: You practice all aspects of your skill. (option B).
Skill Potential: You focus on the possibilities, making it possible to reach new hights. (option C) 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

The problem with mix and matching training options is that it has huge repercussions on what appropriate DCs should be.  In an option A world, a DC 25 is still "nearly impossible," while in an option B world  it's actually pretty easy for a trained character (comparatively, anyway).  So if your players mostly go with option A or D, you should only put up DC 25 obstacles in your adventure if you don't intend your players to overcome it, while in an option B or C table such a DC is a moment for a highly trained character to shine and should be added freely.

True.  Mix and match may not work.  Then again, if someone want's to be super-awseom at 1 thing, why not?



I wasn't suggesting that we should prevent people from being super awesome at one thing, quite the contrary.  I was suggesting that adventure building and more specifically appropriate use of the high end DCs relies on core assumptions about the way skill training works.  I'm saying that if someone wants to be super awesome at something, DMs should give them opportunities to exploit that super-awesomeness.  But if they then choose to be super-awesome in a different way, that effort to provide an opportunity to exploit their super-awesomeness actually just blows up in their face and totally invalidates their choice.  

For example, suppose you want your adventure to have an avenue for advancement that is open only to parties with a super-stealthy guy.  That's great, that means the super-stealthy guy can really shine and contribute to the party in a way that maybe he hasn't been able to lately because you've been doing a lot of social interactions or straight-up fights.  If everyone is using option B or C, then you can have an avenue that requires a really tough stealth check that only a highly trained character could succeed at: everyone else looks at that path and says, no, that ain't possible, but your stealth master says "I got this" and wins the day.  Huzzah!  If your stealth master instead went with option A or D, though, he still has next to zero chance of hitting a DC 25.  No Huzzah, and he feels like he wasted all his skill trainings.  If on the other hand you presume everyone is using options A and D, you don't give a single hard check you give a series of moderate ones.  Even though joe schmo could succeed at one, he'd have to be insanely lucky to succeed at 5 while stealth master A/D is in good stead.  Huzzah.  Unless he happens to be stealth master B/C who still have a decent chance of failing 1 of 5 checks, even if their odds of failing only one are next to nil.  

Tl;dr: problem is that I do want to let people be super awesome, not that I don't.  
The problem with mix and matching training options is that it has huge repercussions on what appropriate DCs should be.  In an option A world, a DC 25 is still "nearly impossible," while in an option B world  it's actually pretty easy for a trained character (comparatively, anyway).  So if your players mostly go with option A or D, you should only put up DC 25 obstacles in your adventure if you don't intend your players to overcome it, while in an option B or C table such a DC is a moment for a highly trained character to shine and should be added freely.

True.  Mix and match may not work.  Then again, if someone want's to be super-awseom at 1 thing, why not?



I wasn't suggesting that we should prevent people from being super awesome at one thing, quite the contrary.  I was suggesting that adventure building and more specifically appropriate use of the high end DCs relies on core assumptions about the way skill training works.  I'm saying that if someone wants to be super awesome at something, DMs should give them opportunities to exploit that super-awesomeness.  But if they then choose to be super-awesome in a different way, that effort to provide an opportunity to exploit their super-awesomeness actually just blows up in their face and totally invalidates their choice.  

For example, suppose you want your adventure to have an avenue for advancement that is open only to parties with a super-stealthy guy.  That's great, that means the super-stealthy guy can really shine and contribute to the party in a way that maybe he hasn't been able to lately because you've been doing a lot of social interactions or straight-up fights.  If everyone is using option B or C, then you can have an avenue that requires a really tough stealth check that only a highly trained character could succeed at: everyone else looks at that path and says, no, that ain't possible, but your stealth master says "I got this" and wins the day.  Huzzah!  If your stealth master instead went with option A or D, though, he still has next to zero chance of hitting a DC 25.  No Huzzah, and he feels like he wasted all his skill trainings.  If on the other hand you presume everyone is using options A and D, you don't give a single hard check you give a series of moderate ones.  Even though joe schmo could succeed at one, he'd have to be insanely lucky to succeed at 5 while stealth master A/D is in good stead.  Huzzah.  Unless he happens to be stealth master B/C who still have a decent chance of failing 1 of 5 checks, even if their odds of failing only one are next to nil.  

Tl;dr: problem is that I do want to let people be super awesome, not that I don't.  

Right...   That's kinda the point.

Different situations appeal to different types of training.  But that's the same as classes appealing to different campaigns.

I mean, if you have 200 kobolds attack at once, the wizard going to look awsome.  And if you 200 kobolds attack one at a time, the fighter's going to look pretty awsome.  

Likewise.  If you need to walk past a DC 5 sleeping guard 10 times, option A would be pretty awseome, you can't fail.  If you only set the DC's to 25, then option B would be pretty awsome, since it means you could possibly succeed.



Advocating everyone has the same kind of training is like advocating everyone be the same kind of class.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Ah, I see your point now, and it's a good one, but I think it's overstated.  There's a difference of degree.  I would find it terribly annoying if I put tons of resources into training up my stealth, but still had a high chance of failing the stealth challenge because I trained it "the wrong way."  A lot more annoying than if I put tons of resources into training my stealth, but what the party really needed today was a guy good with locks.  Or to take your analogy, a lot more annoying than if I chose to play a fighter and then we fought 200 kobolds today.  Multiple kinds of training narrows the usefulness of each skill training and makes it less likely to have an opportunity to pay dividends.  On some level having skills at all narrows the scope of ability scores as effective contributors, and heck having ability scores narrows the effectiveness of a straight up coin flip, but that doesn't mean that taking it a step further is a good thing.

If I put the points into stealth, I want them to really help me out on all kinds of stealth checks.  But if the DM has to have two kinds of stealth checks to showcase the two kinds of stealth training, then my particular choice of training leaves me out in the cold half the time.  I don't think it's unreasonable, much less unusual, to find that problematic.  Even if I'm fine with saying one class is good at one thing and another class is good at a different thing.
A lot of discussion is based around skill training, and the only concenus seems to be is that different people have different expectations.  Some want to eliminate risk with training.  Some people want greater possibility with training and still risk failure.

So why is there only 1 way to train skills?  Let the player decide what fits his character best.


Here's some example options.

Option A: You have a minimum roll of 6/8/10/12 on the d20.  (better min).
Option B: Add 1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 to your skill rolls.  (better max).
Option C: You gain +3/4/5/6 to a skill.  (better min and max).
Optino D: Roll 2d20/3d20/4d20 and take the highest.  (better average). *

I could also see a possibility of mixing them.

*D doesn't quite match the math of the rest.




A does not either. Every other option is statistically superior. And the game sort of does this already. With feats you can get a minimum roll of 5 or 10. With training you gain between +3/7. The problem that we are seeing is what happens when you stack everything together. And, for the most part, the problem comes from Skill Mastery/Mighty Exertion. The rules for those two abilities break the skill system right now. Fix those two, clarify that the entire group cannot try a skill check/how many skill checks can be tried and when, and then the system will be fine. 

A lot of discussion is based around skill training, and the only concenus seems to be is that different people have different expectations.  Some want to eliminate risk with training.  Some people want greater possibility with training and still risk failure.

So why is there only 1 way to train skills?  Let the player decide what fits his character best.


Here's some example options.

Option A: You have a minimum roll of 6/8/10/12 on the d20.  (better min).
Option B: Add 1d6/1d8/1d10/1d12 to your skill rolls.  (better max).
Option C: You gain +3/4/5/6 to a skill.  (better min and max).
Optino D: Roll 2d20/3d20/4d20 and take the highest.  (better average). *

I could also see a possibility of mixing them.

*D doesn't quite match the math of the rest.




A does not either. Every other option is statistically superior. And the game sort of does this already. With feats you can get a minimum roll of 5 or 10. With training you gain between +3/7. The problem that we are seeing is what happens when you stack everything together. And, for the most part, the problem comes from Skill Mastery/Mighty Exertion. The rules for those two abilities break the skill system right now. Fix those two, clarify that the entire group cannot try a skill check/how many skill checks can be tried and when, and then the system will be fine. 


Now that you mention it...

A: is done as a feat  (min 5)
B: is done as a background (+3->7)
C: is done as a manuver (+1d6->1d10)


So yea...  all the mechanics are there (though i agree they need a bit of balance).  They just need to open it up a bit.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.