Possible 5MWD fix for vancian casting?

What if spellcasters earned reduced XP for the first encounter in a day & then made up for for it in subsequent encounters, like this:

1st encounter: 50% xp.
2nd encounter: 100% xp.
3rd encounter: 150% xp.
4th and after: 200% xp.

Maybe not those numbers exactly but you get the idea.

Suddenly spellcasters are not only NOT wanting to rest after every encounter, they are actually trying to whip the rest of the party through at least 3 every day, and trying to wisely manage their resources to be able to do so,right?  The wizard wants that juicy #4 encounter.  I'm thinking it should only apply to casters though--if everyone gets the same xp the group might just tolerate it & continue to rest after every encounter, but the casters won't put up with being left behind, maybe it would work applied to everybody, I'm not sure.  Anyway, maybe people won't like it but I'm actually considering trying it in my campaign.  The only problem I see is days when there was only ever going to be one encounter no matter what...maybe the DM just waives the penalty in that case?

Another potential problem: the spellcasters in the group would be at a different XP count than the rest of the group....maybe it SHOULD apply to everyone.

Thought:  The players would never know for sure that there would only be one encounter on a given day, so they wouldn't know whether it was safe to nova or not.
What if spellcasters earned reduced XP for the first encounter in a day & then made up for for it in subsequent encounters, like this:

1st encounter: 50% xp.
2nd encounter: 100% xp.
3rd encounter: 150% xp.
4th and after: 200% xp.

Maybe not those numbers exactly but you get the idea.

Suddenly spellcasters are not only NOT wanting to rest after every encounter, they are actually trying to whip the rest of the party through at least 3 every day, and trying to wisely manage their resources to be able to do so,right?  The wizard wants that juicy #4 encounter.  I'm thinking it should only apply to casters though--if everyone gets the same xp the group might just tolerate it & continue to rest after every encounter, but the casters won't put up with being left behind, maybe it would work applied to everybody, I'm not sure.  Anyway, maybe people won't like it but I'm actually considering trying it in my campaign.  The only problem I see is days when there was only ever going to be one encounter no matter what...maybe the DM just waives the penalty in that case?

Another potential problem: the spellcasters in the group would be at a different XP count than the rest of the group....maybe it SHOULD apply to everyone.

Thought:  The players would never know for sure that there would only be one encounter on a given day, so they wouldn't know whether it was safe to nova or not.



This was already posed as a solution in the "Mechanical Solutions to the 5MWD" thread.
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wow that could create some really odd imbalances with xp rewards. Only way this would work out is if all xp rewards were made in the same very tight margins all day, and some encounters are worth more than others by nature.


I could see the wizard doing a dungeon crawl and earning half xp on the grunts only to get double xp for the big fight at the end.

What if spellcasters earned reduced XP for the first encounter in a day & then made up for for it in subsequent encounters, like this:

1st encounter: 50% xp.
2nd encounter: 100% xp.
3rd encounter: 150% xp.
4th and after: 200% xp.

Maybe not those numbers exactly but you get the idea.

Suddenly spellcasters are not only NOT wanting to rest after every encounter, they are actually trying to whip the rest of the party through at least 3 every day, and trying to wisely manage their resources to be able to do so,right?  The wizard wants that juicy #4 encounter.  I'm thinking it should only apply to casters though--if everyone gets the same xp the group might just tolerate it & continue to rest after every encounter, but the casters won't put up with being left behind, maybe it would work applied to everybody, I'm not sure.  Anyway, maybe people won't like it but I'm actually considering trying it in my campaign.  The only problem I see is days when there was only ever going to be one encounter no matter what...maybe the DM just waives the penalty in that case?

Another potential problem: the spellcasters in the group would be at a different XP count than the rest of the group....maybe it SHOULD apply to everyone.

Thought:  The players would never know for sure that there would only be one encounter on a given day, so they wouldn't know whether it was safe to nova or not.



This was already posed as a solution in the "Mechanical Solutions to the 5MWD" thread.



I should have figured.

But I didn't see it, I legitimately thought of it on my own.


See this is what I don't get about 5mwd threads.  Why does everyone think that the problem is with players weadling extra rests out of their DMs?  That the solution is incentivizing players not to ask?  It's not true, it's doomed to failure, it makes zero in-game sense, but most of all it feeds the other side's belief that the "5mwd problem" doesn't need to be fixed because a good DM can deal with it by just not letting his players take excessive rests without penalty.  Thus, it side-tracks the debate into a completely pointless discussion of "well that hasn't been a problem for me, so I refuse to put up with your complicated and non-sensical fixes just because you're a crappy DM."  Not that I'm actually calling any of you a crappy DM, but that's been the jist of the other half dozen threads on this subject that I've seen.

That's not the 5mwd problem, or at least not all of it, and therefore this solution (which has already been discussed ad nauseum, btw) can't fix the 5mwd problem, even if the incentive were strong enough to make players want to push on.   All it can do is fuel the other side's argument that nothing needs to be done, and WotC does not need more reasons not to push the game forward and slaughter the sacred cows that need slaughtering to really fix the problem (which, IMHO, does not necessarily include elimination of all dailiy resources).  
I keep seeing these threads and reading the posts that describie players playing their DM into allowing a rest after one battle or encounter.   The real problem I see is, why the heck are the DM's allowing this??????  WHY? WHY? WHY? is this a problem for WotCto fix.  WHY?  There is no 5MWD!!!!!  Unless it is allowed!!!!
Because the game world, operates at a more realistic and literary pace of 1 or 2 battles or resource draining encounters a week and ocassionally advancing to as high as 1 or 2 a day..is incredibly illogical and bad wrong fun.... it just must mean the players are exploiting the game.... otherwise we cant diss on people with different play styles.
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At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
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"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I keep seeing these threads and reading the posts that describie players playing their DM into allowing a rest after one battle or encounter.   The real problem I see is, why the heck are the DM's allowing this??????  WHY? WHY? WHY? is this a problem for WotCto fix.  WHY?  There is no 5MWD!!!!!  Unless it is allowed!!!!

Thanks for making powerroleplayer's point for him.
Thanks for making powerroleplayer's point for him.


Could call it hanging a lamp shade on it.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Thanks for making powerroleplayer's point for him.


Could call it hanging a lamp shade on it.



Not sure what point I made for others, but I have not ever had this problem, as a DM or player.  We even had marathon 3 day games and I honestly do not remember this being an issue of any kind.  If your wizard uses everything in the first encounter then oh well - now he is a melee fighter till you get a chance to rest.  Not changing the topic, but it kinda sounds like a MMO = fight/rest/explore/fight/rest...(?) 
Thanks for making powerroleplayer's point for him.


Could call it hanging a lamp shade on it.



Not sure what point I made for others, but I have not ever had this problem, as a DM or player.  We even had marathon 3 day games and I honestly do not remember this being an issue of any kind.  If your wizard uses everything in the first encounter then oh well - now he is a melee fighter till you get a chance to rest.  Not changing the topic, but it kinda sounds like a MMO = fight/rest/explore/fight/rest...(?) 

The point was that your assumption of the 5mwd  (and the thing this thread is attempting to fix) are only a single aspect of the multifaceted issues which culminate in what people are calling the 5mwd.

This point has been done to death in several threads, so I'm not going to argue about it, but basically there's several different issues at hand:

- Nova cycle (blow all resources and rest immediately)
- Daily vs at-will class balance (anything besides prescribed number of encounters/day results in class imbalance)
- Lamentation of unused resources (feeling that daily powers are wasted when held for a big battle that never comes)
- Verisimilitude of tactics (hit-and-run vs battle till it's done)

And other factors I could think of if I took the time.

The problem with this thread is it only addresses one of the factors, and as such cannot by itself "fix the 5mwd."

There are folks who want a mechanical fix for this broad range issue, but they tend to not be specific about which facet they mean when they discuss it.

Then there are those who haven't experienced one or any of those facets personally (or just don't recognize the experience as a problem for them) and insist the the entire issue doesn't exist.  They usually respond with "DM better" as the only viable way to address anyone's concern.


At the end of the day, no one fix is going to work for all groups.  At best, we can hope for optional fixes for specific facets of the issue to be patched on by groups that are dis-satisfied with the default system behavior.

At worst, people with complaints will be left to DM around the problem like they have had to since the beginning.

Anyway, these 5mwd threads have been done to death, and nothing productive ever comes out of them.  So that's all I have to say.  I will not be responding again.

*edit:  removed personal anecdote
This is a logical solution.
When the spellcaster gets weaker, the challenges get tougher... so more xp.
What if spellcasters earned reduced XP for the first encounter in a day & then made up for for it in subsequent encounters, like this:


It'd make a decent house rule, and I've played with similar ones before.  The problem is that it does a poor job of really tackling the problem.  It provides an incentive to press on to conflict with the incentive to fall back.  This is what I call a "soft fix" to the incentive side of it, because it doesn't just go and fix the issue, it merely pushes the grey area where players maybe want to press on more in favor of them pressing on.  And it still doesn't address the issue of caster imbalance on days where there just aren't any more fights to press on to.

Any real, hard fix to the 5mwd needs to look at:

1) Decoupling class parity from the amount of adventuring done in the day, and

2) Decoupling party effectiveness, overall, from the length of the adventuring day. 
 

And special thanks to wndstar for making me remember why I hate discussing this topic around here.
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