Poll: Did WotC lie?

Based on this statement by the Lead Software Developer of DDi:

79189613 wrote:
This new webtool is going to be awesome! You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely. We aren't ready to tell you what it is, but when it comes out you'll be happy. Seriuosly, I'm quite proud of the work we did. I really think you'll like it.



Which was a rewording of this post:

57882868 wrote:
Hey, I want to be excited about the new web based tools. Considering the announcement was paired with an announcement of a failure to properly update the offline tools its not hard to see why people put 2 and Yellow together and got Pineapple. :P

But I do want to be excited. Instead of being able to be excited though no one from WotC has come here to quell our fears or ease our anxiety. No one, for whatever reason, has come down to corral the rumors. A simple "Its not a replacement for the offline character builder" would suffice. But instead WotC (for whatever reason) has decided to allow those rumors to continue, which then makes them seem true (if they are false OF COURSE someone would come tell us to relax, right? I mean, whoever is in charge can't be that dense!) and just adds fuel to the flame.

I want to be excited. All it would take to get me to shiver in antici...

...pation would be a simple statement from WotC "This new webtool is going to be awesome! You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely. We aren't ready to tell you what it is, but when it comes out you'll be happy."



Which was then followed up by this post by the lead programmer of DDi:

79189613 wrote:
On the other hand, I am known to make jokes

But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue. It is going to be awesome and we're not yet ready to tell you more about it.

And, considering that in the end this is a game, I like environments that are fun and entertaining. The constant negativity (and it is warranted sometimes, I know very well) is just tiring and doesn't get us anywhere. I'm not advocating rah rah gushing posts with no room for dissenters, but dogpiles and repetitions... are just not fun.




Do you think that WotC lied to us or not?



"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Relevent to D&DN how?

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

On the face of it, yes. But this is the internet and it's becoming more and more established that statements made on the internet are less likely to be taken as a statement of fact. The language in the posts you've quoted suggest that these are statements of opinion and not statements of fact.


The Oatmeal has a recent comic on a similar topic that I'm sure some of the designers at WOTC can relate to.


EDIT


Relevent to D&DN how?


Yeah I was wondering that too.


On the face of it, yes. But this is the internet and it's becoming more and more established that statements made on the internet are less likely to be taken as a statement of fact. The language in the posts you've quoted suggest that these are statements of opinion and not statements of fact.


The Oatmeal has a recent comic on a similar topic that I'm sure some of the designers at WOTC can relate to.


EDIT


Relevent to D&DN how?


Yeah I was wondering that too.




Its all about trust. Can we trust WotC to tell us the truth and not try to deceive us into buying something we don't want with 5E? Will people stay away from 5E because of WotC reputation? If people think WotC lies all the time they may just refuse to buy their products on principle. Its entirely relevant...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
 Sorry the reality warping leaps of judgement are a bit much.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

 Sorry the reality warping leaps of judgement are a bit much.



I agree, the justifications and excuses people give for WotC's behavior is just mind boggling...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I have to agreee with Kadim, I don't see a statement of fact in the quotes above.  It appears to be a statement of opinion.  As such, it is not a lie.  "Is going to be awesome" is an opinion, not a statement of fact. 
I have to agreee with Kadim, I don't see a statement of fact in the quotes above.  It appears to be a statement of opinion.  As such, it is not a lie.  "Is going to be awesome" is an opinion, not a statement of fact. 



You like others have a blind spot. Here let me point it out for you:

"You will find it supplements our existing tools very nicely."

Followed by:

"But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue."

Combined they mean that the new program, the Online Character Builder, would supplement the other tools. Since the Monster Builder had nothing to do with building characters, how exactly does a replacement tool supplement it? See lie. Its not that hard to open your eyes and read it...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.

Those are not statements of fact. Saying what I will or will not find works well with something else is a sales pitch, which is broadly considered to not be a statement of fact. Him saying he didn't say anything untrue is a statement of fact but it's also a true statement of fact because the cited statements cannot be considered a statement of fact. It certainly wouldn't hold up in court.


The context of the statements is also important when determining whether something is a statement of fact or not. Generally speaking, stuff on a forum or other internet medium (particularly in the US) is regarded as opinion.


What it means to you is fine but that doesn't mean that WOTC as a company or through a representative in any meaningful sense lied to anyone. Whether you feel deceived by comments that were taken to be said on the company's behalf is not the same as a public lie. At best what you've got here is a bit of PR that didn't pan out, like when you buy a different brand of washing up liquid that claims to be as good as your last one but isn't.


If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.


What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


edit: oh yeah, and "supplement" could mean a lot of things, including simply that you'll use it alongside something else.

This thread has not drifted into the arena of the unwell...it started there...
Lokiare if you wanted the poll to be fair you would have presented both sides honestly instead of presenting your interpretation and asking people to agree with you.
This comes across as a particularly paranoid conspiracy theory.

If you have to resort to making offensive comments instead of making logical arguments, you deserve to be ignored.

This comes across as a particularly paranoid conspiracy theory.




Crusade.
Out of lurking..This can only end well.
Back to lurking.
Lokaire, you're not looking to be the next DDN playtester they interview, are you?
Cool 
Welcome to ZomboniLand - My D&D Blog http://zomboniland.blogspot.com/
SERIOUSLY? lol

You may was well call this thread 'The Conspiracy Theory'

Do you really think WOTC would purposely deceive us into buying their product? Do you honestly think they didn't want/intend on delivering the product they sought?

Do you really think they would have made 4th Edition/DDI knowing it would of flunked? and that their 'posts' was just a 'stunt' to make us apply to their product?

Have you seen the hard core nerds developping the game? Or do you think they are just there for show and they secretly have business men in suits developping the game?

No WOTC didn't lie, they just unfortunately wern't able to fully deliver on what they expected (hoped) was going to be a great success.


So, yes we put our trust in DDN because we have a team of talented and dedicated geeks who love the game as much (probably more) then we do.

Were all in this together. Now stop treating the D&D team like its some crooked organization... sheesh
I voted no. I liked the offline one better, but they were trying to make this work. I doubt that they came in and said "lets make crap, telll them it will be awsome, then see what happens"

Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say?

Lokiare if you wanted the poll to be fair you would have presented both sides honestly instead of presenting your interpretation and asking people to agree with you.

Also, when having a poll, it is best to not attack people who express an opinion different from yours.  It only adds to the already substantial bias caused by your presenting a slanted view of the original issue.

Also, what are you going to do with the results?  If 'No' wins, will your behavior and attitudes change at all? 

If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.

What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


I think what we have learned here is that some people would respond to this story with, "WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?!"
If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.

What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


I think what we have learned here is that some people would respond to this story with, "WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?!"



I really think what we learned here is that some people are looking for excuses to accuse other people and coroporations to feed into preconsisting ideas that they already had.
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.
If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.

What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


I think what we have learned here is that some people would respond to this story with, "WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME?!"

I really think what we learned here is that some people are looking for excuses to accuse other people and coroporations to feed into preconsisting ideas that they already had.

haha I can't help but keep watching this thread. It's like watching car wreck. Sometimes, I watch Fox News and try to put myself in the place of someone who takes everything said in the reports as absolute fact. This is similar.
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.




Also it is possible to be wrong and not to have lied. It's about intent.

Poll:  Is Lokaire afraid Merls will cheat on him even though they are not dating?


Seriously.  It's like a jealous girl who doesn't want to be in love and blames the guy.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.


Context? What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



Precisely.  Either Paulo didn't know or he lied.  Since Paulo was the lead developer for the on-line tools, he had to have known.  Draw the logical conclusion.

-Polaris
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.


Context? What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



As long as they didn't *intend* for it to be an inferior replacement, it's not a lie.  You have a valid complaint in feeling that they did not deliver on their intent.  That does not make them liars.

Let's say I promised you I'd come over and bake pancakes.  But on the day, something came up, and I decided to that instead.  I never lied about coming over.  That would assume I never intended it in the first place.  I am, however, a dirty promise breaker.  But maybe if it was a good enough reason (family emergency) you might cut me some slack.


You can readily say they didn't deliver on their intent for the OCB.  What you don't know is whether they actually intended to make a superior product, that supplemented the existing one, or not.  They may full well have intended to do just that, but failed.  That does not make them liars.  It makes them promise breakers.  Of course, maybe integrating the new design with the old one was just too big of a nightmare, so it couldn't be used as a supplement.  Maybe limitations in their database servers prevented them from making the OCB actually useful.  As in, maybe it's not really their fault.

I'm not saying it isn't their fault.  It very well could be.  But I don't think they lied about their intent, just failed to follow through.
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.


Context? What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



He said it would have supplemented other online tools, not a specific one. In fact it 'supplements' monsters builder and compendium, as in being complementary to those. Not a lie #1.

He didn't say it wouldn't have replaced the offline CB: the previous poster asked for that and the dev neither confirmed nor denied it. Not a lie #2.

The new tool being "awesome" is a subjective statement. Not a lie #3. 
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.


Context? What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



He said it would have supplemented other online tools, not a specific one. In fact it 'supplements' monsters builder and compendium, as in being complementary to those. Not a lie #1.

He didn't say it wouldn't have replaced the offline CB: the previous poster asked for that and the dev neither confirmed nor denied it. Not a lie #2.

The new tool being "awesome" is a subjective statement. Not a lie #3. 



Given the context of the thread in question and given that we were waiting at the time for updates to our (then) off-line character builders with no idea they were going to be yanked (or more accuratedly not supported any longer), the statements were at least deliberately misleading....to the point where I would consider them dishonest at least.

-Polaris
Do you think that WotC lied to us or not?


No. 
They still had hopes for 4e back in 2010 but quickly cancelled much of their work for 5e in 2011. The tool was likely quickly and quietly cancelled when work began on 5e. 

No the haven't lied. Please stop trying to stir up needless animosity. 

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Given the context of the thread in question and given that we were waiting at the time for updates to our (then) off-line character builders with no idea they were going to be yanked (or more accuratedly not supported any longer), the statements were at least deliberately misleading....to the point where I would consider them dishonest at least.

-Polaris


 
I woud consider them to be underdelivering and failing to meet and manage expectations. I would question their skills, not their honesty.
What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.


Because that statement was a joke and not to be taken seriously.  Which is apparent because it was written as a verbatim statement of what someone else light-heartedly suggested Paolo would have to write to make him excited, because it was followed bya  smiley, because it was then followed by a sentence starting witht he word "Seriously" (thus indicating that what preceded was not "serious"), because later he said that he is "also known to make jokes", and because he said he did think it would be awesome but that he isn't allowed to discuss anything else about the unreleased tools, which means that any contrary statements he may have appeared to have made are unreliable.

here's what happened:
Preston_R: In order to get me excited, you have to say "X"
Paolo: "X".  {smiley} Seriously, it will be awesome.
Others: People take his statement about "X" seriously.
Others: Promise backlash if "X" is untrue.
Paolo: I'm also know to make jokes.  But in this case, I didn't say anything untrue. It is going to be awesome and we're not yet ready to tell you more about it.

Four days later, when it's released, people believe that "X" is untrue. 

lokiare: Paolo said it would be "X" and also that he "didn't lie".  Therefore he lied!

Anybody who understands context: No.  All he meant was that he thought it would be awesome and he couldn't say anything else about it.  Also, "X" is a matter of opinion.

And to be clear, the "X" here is "it supplements existing tools".  What happened was that the Character Builder was turned into a web-based tool.  Does the online Character Builder supplement existing tools like the Compendium?  Arguably.  Did it also replace the off-line CB?  Yes.  

More importantly, does the narrative of "Paolo lied" make any sense?  Why would Paolo lie about a product that is going to be released in only four days?!  Doesn't it make more sense to think that Paolo didn't think he was lying?  That he thought he was engaged in light-hearted banter with people, who, generally, were appreciative of his attempts to communicate with the fanbase?  What would it gain Paolo or Wizards to lie about the product four days before its release?  Do you think they bamboozled lot sof people into buying subscriptions in those four days?  Or to not drop their subscriptions in those four days?

The story of "Paolo" makes no sense and in context, it doesn't hold any water unless you squint sideways really hard, and assume completely incomprehensible motives on their part. 
Its all about trust. Can we trust WotC to tell us the truth and not try to deceive us into buying something we don't want with 5E?


Yeah.... how many people saw scans of the 4e books before they released? WotC can't keep the cat in the bag. Failing that people will look through the book in the stores, read reviews, and talk to friends. There's is NO WAY WotC can decieve us into buying a game that isn't what it is supposed to be. Period. 

Will people stay away from 5E because of WotC reputation?


Probably so, and it is a well-deserved reputation. The D&D brand team is doing their best to change it, but the upper management of the company seems quite happy being secretive and potentially manipulative of the audience. 

If people think WotC lies all the time they may just refuse to buy their products on principle. Its entirely relevant...


They don't lie. They never lie.
They don't tell us all the story, keep information hidden behind walls of NDAs, and only release information at a controlled rate with every possible negative carefully and deliberately spun (when they bother to tell us anything at all) while their employees are often relegated to sticking to scripts of hard talking points at public apperances.  
But they don't lie.  

5 Minute WorkdayMy Webcomic Updated Tue & Thur

The compilation of my Worldbuilding blog series is now available: 

Jester David's How-To Guide to Fantasy Worldbuilding.

Given the context of the thread in question and given that we were waiting at the time for updates to our (then) off-line character builders with no idea they were going to be yanked (or more accuratedly not supported any longer), the statements were at least deliberately misleading....to the point where I would consider them dishonest at least.

-Polaris


 
I woud consider them to be underdelivering and failing to meet and manage expectations. I would question their skills, not their honesty.



Except look at the DTG of the posts.  At that time Paulo had to know what the new application was and what it could (and could not do) as lead developer.   Given that and given his posts as Wotc's representative, I have plenty of reason to question their honesty in this at least.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I do agree with you about their competance as well fwiw.
Just like I thought. Pedantic arguments are used to defend the beloved brand. 

Meh. 



Nope. It's about looking at the problem for what it is: it was a matter of incompetence, not untruthfulness.

Those are not statements of fact. Saying what I will or will not find works well with something else is a sales pitch, which is broadly considered to not be a statement of fact. Him saying he didn't say anything untrue is a statement of fact but it's also a true statement of fact because the cited statements cannot be considered a statement of fact. It certainly wouldn't hold up in court.


The context of the statements is also important when determining whether something is a statement of fact or not. Generally speaking, stuff on a forum or other internet medium (particularly in the US) is regarded as opinion.


What it means to you is fine but that doesn't mean that WOTC as a company or through a representative in any meaningful sense lied to anyone. Whether you feel deceived by comments that were taken to be said on the company's behalf is not the same as a public lie. At best what you've got here is a bit of PR that didn't pan out, like when you buy a different brand of washing up liquid that claims to be as good as your last one but isn't.


If someone tells me this Super Bowl will be the best one yet and I'll find the half time show to be even more inventive than last year, I don't take that as a statement of fact because of the context it's made - namely, a sales pitch or a statement of an excited fan.


What you've shown me is the statement of an excited fan.


edit: oh yeah, and "supplement" could mean a lot of things, including simply that you'll use it alongside something else.




It doesn't need to hold up in a court of law. It needs to hold up in the court of public opinion. Huge difference. We'll see what the poll says in a few days.

It doesn't matter where something is found. It is a fact or not based on its merits. Paolo presented it as a fact and backed it up with a second post. I take it since you want to get into a semantic debate that you are acknowledging that he did in fact lie?

If the Lead Programmer for a product tells me the product will do something then it turns out not to do it, then guess what? They lied. Its pretty clear cut...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lokiare if you wanted the poll to be fair you would have presented both sides honestly instead of presenting your interpretation and asking people to agree with you.



Really? I thought I posted it pretty neutrally. I even included the post that he was quoting. I then asked if people thought WotC lied. What side did I not include honestly?Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
SERIOUSLY? lol

You may was well call this thread 'The Conspiracy Theory'

Do you really think WOTC would purposely deceive us into buying their product? Do you honestly think they didn't want/intend on delivering the product they sought?

Do you really think they would have made 4th Edition/DDI knowing it would of flunked? and that their 'posts' was just a 'stunt' to make us apply to their product?

Have you seen the hard core nerds developping the game? Or do you think they are just there for show and they secretly have business men in suits developping the game?

No WOTC didn't lie, they just unfortunately wern't able to fully deliver on what they expected (hoped) was going to be a great success.


So, yes we put our trust in DDN because we have a team of talented and dedicated geeks who love the game as much (probably more) then we do.

Were all in this together. Now stop treating the D&D team like its some crooked organization... sheesh



If they think a company won't try to bilk their customers out of money at every turn, you are amazingly naive...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Lokiare if you wanted the poll to be fair you would have presented both sides honestly instead of presenting your interpretation and asking people to agree with you.

Also, when having a poll, it is best to not attack people who express an opinion different from yours.  It only adds to the already substantial bias caused by your presenting a slanted view of the original issue.

Also, what are you going to do with the results?  If 'No' wins, will your behavior and attitudes change at all? 




Wow the personal attacks and stereotyping is flying today. I'm guessing no one here has an inkling on how to properly debate a topic.

I'd like to know where "substantial bias caused by your presenting a slanted view of the original issue." comes from. I included all relevant posts and asked a clear unloaded question...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.



Really care to enlighten us as to how I presented it wrong rather than constantly trying to stereotype me and attack my posting style with no facts?Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I'd like to know why some people voted it's not a lie.


Because we were there at the time and saw what Paolo's statement was in context, as opposed to the "context" that lokiare tried to present in the initial post.


Context? What does context have to do with him not being honest about it being awesome and supplementing the existing tools? It didn't supplement, it replaced with an inferior product.



As long as they didn't *intend* for it to be an inferior replacement, it's not a lie.  You have a valid complaint in feeling that they did not deliver on their intent.  That does not make them liars.

Let's say I promised you I'd come over and bake pancakes.  But on the day, something came up, and I decided to that instead.  I never lied about coming over.  That would assume I never intended it in the first place.  I am, however, a dirty promise breaker.  But maybe if it was a good enough reason (family emergency) you might cut me some slack.


You can readily say they didn't deliver on their intent for the OCB.  What you don't know is whether they actually intended to make a superior product, that supplemented the existing one, or not.  They may full well have intended to do just that, but failed.  That does not make them liars.  It makes them promise breakers.  Of course, maybe integrating the new design with the old one was just too big of a nightmare, so it couldn't be used as a supplement.  Maybe limitations in their database servers prevented them from making the OCB actually useful.  As in, maybe it's not really their fault.

I'm not saying it isn't their fault.  It very well could be.  But I don't think they lied about their intent, just failed to follow through.



This was right before it was released and Paolo being the Lead Programmer KNEW what they were putting out. I have no problem with him thinking his work is awesome. I do have a problem with him lieing to us and saying it would supplement the tools, when it in fact replaced them...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Really? I thought I posted it pretty neutrally.


I'm sure you did think that.  I'm not accusing you of intentional dishonesty.

What side did I not include honestly?


The side that provides context.

When I explained my position on the "PaoloM Lies" meme, I included the initial post to explain what the thread was about.  I included background about the Character Builder and what people were waiting for.  I included reactions to PaoloM's initial post, including people taking his initial statement seriously and other people pointing out that it shouldn't be taken seriously.  I pointed out the context of his second clarifying post and the import of his statement that he couldn't reveal more about the new relase other than it being "awesome".

You didn't do that.  You stripped out as much context as you could so that it would like the exchange was

"Say X"
"X"
"Did you mean it"
"Yes."
It's not X
"You lied!" 

When really it was more like
"When will we get a release"
"I'm working on it.  I wish I could say more but policy doesn't allow me."
Lots of discussion about policy allowing more communication in other divisions.
"Well, if you said "X", I'd feel better."
"Okay. X. lol. Seriously, it will be awesome. Be patient"
"Did he really promise X?
"No, that was a joke"
"It better be X or people will be pissed!"
Lots of other discussion.
"Look, I didn't lie. It will be awesome but I can't say anything else."
Many people think it wasn't X, even though X is a vague term of opinion. 
"Paolo lied!"
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