Challenge: Lawful Evil Rogue/Paladin of Tyranny

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Here's an explanation as to this ridiculous character idea.  For the past four years, I've been playing nothing but Lawful Good and Neutral Good characters.  My friends have had enough of it, and want me to make a Lawful Evil Rogue, and I want to see if it's possible to make the above idea.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but just go with it.  I'd like to see if it's possible to make a build for it.  My restrictions are as follows:

1) No swordsage
2) All classes, feats, skills, etc. must be from books.  No magazines or homebrew.
3) Must have at least 1 level of Lawful Evil rogue

I really want to work the whole paladin ideal into this character, but if push comes to shove and we don't come to a conclusion, I can try out a rogue/cleric or assassin build.

Any assistance on this matter is immensely appreciated.  I've spent the past week scrounging around books and forums for some kind of spark that might lead me to a solution to no avail.

Thank you in advance. 
Here's an explanation as to this ridiculous character idea.  For the past four years, I've been playing nothing but Lawful Good and Neutral Good characters.  My friends have had enough of it, and want me to make a Lawful Evil Rogue, and I want to see if it's possible to make the above idea.  I know it sounds ridiculous, but just go with it.  I'd like to see if it's possible to make a build for it.  My restrictions are as follows:

1) No swordsage
2) All classes, feats, skills, etc. must be from books.  No magazines or homebrew.
3) Must have at least 1 level of Lawful Evil rogue

I really want to work the whole paladin ideal into this character, but if push comes to shove and we don't come to a conclusion, I can try out a rogue/cleric or assassin build.

Any assistance on this matter is immensely appreciated.  I've spent the past week scrounging around books and forums for some kind of spark that might lead me to a solution to no avail.

Thank you in advance. 

This really isn't much information to go on, but why not just be a "typical" Daring Outlaw?

EDIT: Basically you're telling the restrictions on what is possible to use, without giving us any information on your end goal.

"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Human
Lawful Evil Rogue

I want to create a synergy between sneak attack and smite good.  I don't care much about spells because I have skills to rely on.  And a few levels in blackguard would be nice to go for what with the bonus sneak attack I could get with 5 levels in Pally.  As far as feat options and other prestige class options, i have no idea.

By utilizing rebuke, I'm able to deal with the rogue vs. undead issue.  If I could improve that strategy a little so I have something to fall back on if things don't go my way, this would be wonderful. 
Human
Lawful Evil Rogue

I want to create a synergy between sneak attack and smite good.  I don't care much about spells because I have skills to rely on.  And a few levels in blackguard would be nice to go for what with the bonus sneak attack I could get with 5 levels in Pally.  As far as feat options and other prestige class options, i have no idea.

By utilizing rebuke, I'm able to deal with the rogue vs. undead issue.  If I could improve that strategy a little so I have something to fall back on if things don't go my way, this would be wonderful. 

why you dont talk with your DM to get a feat like "Tyranny Rouge" Paladin & Rogue levels stack for Sneak Attack and Smite Good damage, free multiclassin betwwen them.

If not then the problem of this multiclass will be the fact that a paladin can't do it like the other classes
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Hat about a rogue/cleric/Prestige paladin?
I'll just start out by saying I don't use the alternative alignment Paladins and if I did then I'm probably removing Blackguard for them.

Now when I read you concept I'm really thinking of some kind of Blackguard build.  It may not be the most optimized build (which I normally don't go for) but I'm thinking Rogue3-4/martial class(es)4-3/Blackguard.  Unfortunately Blackguard does limit you skill points so you may not be the most skilled character but unless you're starting at a high level I'd consider that to be a longer term concern.

Now if you are starting as a higher level character a potentially sick combo that seems to mesh well with your plans would be a fallen Shadowbane Inquisitor.  You'd enter Shadowbane Inquisitor (SI) with a Rogue/Paladin but at some point you'd fall and the start taking levels in Blackguard.  When you fall you lose you Paladin abilities but KEEP your SI abilities; furthermore your SI levels stack with Paladin levels to determine Blackguard special abilities which could even include trading in some Paladin levels for Blackguard.  Now how exactly that swapping levels works is something to take up with your DM but I think the result is something close to what you are looking for.
 
Rogue 8/LE Paladin 2/Blackguard 10/

Is pretty solid/basic but should be able to hold its own. And 2x Cha to saves is nice.  Go TWF, and play like a normal rogue, who has some minor spells and a better BAB.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Surely you're not even accidently suggesting that he gets to apply divine grace/dark blessing twice, just because they used a differing name for flavor for the same ability.

Surely you're not even accidently suggesting that he gets to apply divine grace/dark blessing twice, just because they used a differing name for flavor for the same ability.


Thats exactly what I'm explicitley saying. Its two increadibly similar abilities that totally stack. Now, should you include the blackguard and LE paladin options in the same campaign? Probably not. Would I allow it in my game? Depends on the player (the ones bad at optimization, sure go at it). I don't know this DMs tolerance for cheese, so I'll throw it out, and let the DM ban it. 


If you are really concerned, OP, just do LG paladin 2/Rogue 8 (Alignment change sometime in here) Blackguard 10. Same basic build, but you don't get the Cha bonus twice. Much less likely to tweak a DM who prefers low optimization though. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Surely you're not even accidently suggesting that he gets to apply divine grace/dark blessing twice, just because they used a differing name for flavor for the same ability.

He is and it's not accidently.  It helps illustrates why I don't use Blackguard when the other "evil Paladin" options are available.  It can be even worse when he'd say that the LE Paladin is just a variation on Paladin and thus you get to count all of those levels when looking at that table of "specials" a Blackguard gets for having Paladin levels.  I know we've had that "discussion" before.

 
At the end of the day he still has to play a paladin, so I don't consider it the end of the world. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Doesn't matter what you name them, or which class came first.  Both Divine Grace and Dark Blessing are a (SU) profane modifier stemming from evil. Profane bonuses on the same character do not stack.

I shouldn't even have typed that much, the issue is the dictionary definition of COMMON SENSE that they are the same ability. Looking at it any other way because a writer thought to get a bit of fluff into the write-up is just pure cheese.
Doesn't matter what you name them, or which class came first.  Both Divine Grace and Dark Blessing are a (SU) profane modifier stemming from evil. Profane bonuses on the same character do not stack.

I shouldn't even have typed that much, the issue is the dictionary definition of COMMON SENSE that they are the same ability. Looking at it any other way because a writer thought to get a bit of fluff into the write-up is just pure cheese.

the bonus of Divine Grace and Dark Blessing are nameless but remember that if you be a blackguard you donn't gain the extra bonus unless you was a fallen paladin that don't is the case if you are a Paladin of Tyranny.

but is right the ability of the paladin of Tyranny should be dark blessing instead of divine grace because Divine Grace are for Good characters and Dark Blessing for Evil characters.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

They are both untyped. Meaning they stack.


Now obviously, the intention for blackguard was to replace divine grace lost for being a fallen paladin with the exact same ability, but thats not what it says or does. 

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

You DM your game your way. I'll DM my game the right way.
You DM your game your way. I'll DM my game the right way.



To be fair there really is no "right way" to to run or play D&D. The entire game is based on building a fantasy storyline with math as a mediation for the control of that fantasy. All the books with all the rules and all the classes, feats, spells, prestige classes on top of regular base classes, alternative class features ect, they all exist for a good reason and that's to save boath Dm's and players time in creating the numerical statistics for all the things you find in fantasy. In the long run the escalation of the fantasy in D&D can go one of three ways, narratively, mathematically, or both. If someone wants to let two different forms of divine grace stack in their game I wouldn't say that they're Dm'ing the game wrong, just their way. If a player wanted to argue the fact that the paladin of tyranny's divine grace and the black guards unholy grace in one of my games I would say that raw they would be right, but personally as a DM I wouldn't allow a paladin of tyranny to take the black guard prestige class in the first place. In the end it's simply up to the person running the game to balance the numbers versus the narrative too see what they like, and in that respect no one can truly be wrong.

yes, but i should only change the name of the Divine Grace of the evils paladin for dark blessing, many evil creature have it instead of divine grace and many good character have divine grace then is easy argue that Dark Blessing are the same that Divine Grace but for evil character and Divine Grace is the same that Dark Blessing but for Good Characters.

Then if you are evil you can't gain Divine Grace and if you are Good you can't gain DarkBlessing unles you had the Hellbred race (GOOD but EVIL at the same time).
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, you are on the correct path of reasoning, despite your english.  I understand it that the spanish language only has a fraction of the words that the english one does, so you are doing really well.  

Divine in the game means "from the god".  So good or evil.  That breaks down to, "sacred or profane". You seem to understand the common sense going on here. (I hope that "common sense" means the same thing to you in your idiom.  You seem to be agreeing with me on that).

As soon as the munchkin player can show me his multi-class character that shows that his character has two separate charisma scores (source) [I have a 17 charisma in paladin and a 16 charisma in blackguard] and two separate evil alignments (source) [hey look guys, I learned a whole new way to be evil over here in this prestige class!], I'll be happy to let them stack.  Until then:


Stacking


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).


So, all that said, Oma, thanks for having my back this once. 

You can assign types to stuff all you want. That doesn't mean the book has a type written. By your logic I could call the dex bonus to AC a dodge bonus, because dex helps you jump out of the way. 


Now, I totally can make that call in my games, but it doesn't change how the rules actually work, and doesn't mean i should assume everyone uses my house rule.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

I agree Krusk, we will "house rule" as players (I play this way, not just rule) and as DMs.  I am not Oma, I don't want to "win" this debate.  I'll never have the pleasure of sitting at your table.

To go outside the rules into some wise words (for the fun of it)...


A rose by any other name ~ William Shakespeare
Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose ~ Gertrude Stein

¬¬ i don't want to win i know that the Rule let the bonus stack

"the bonus of Divine Grace and Dark Blessing are nameless but remember that if you be a blackguard you donn't gain the extra bonus unless you was a fallen paladin that don't is the case if you are a Paladin of Tyranny.

but is right the ability of the paladin of Tyranny should be dark blessing instead of divine grace because Divine Grace are for Good characters and Dark Blessing for Evil characters. "

But i know that the Rules of DMG say that you can't let a single player have too much power because the other player maybe can't do nothing in the adventure.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

They are both untyped. Meaning they stack.


Now obviously, the intention for blackguard was to replace divine grace lost for being a fallen paladin with the exact same ability, but thats not what it says or does. 


They may be untyped but I'll rule that they both come from the same source, CHA modifier, and do not stack because of that.  I'll say the same thing if you find two classes that let you add your WIS modifier to your AC.
 
Actually Steven, it's already printed for the ninja class, to make sure munchkins don't add the obvious monk ability twice.
The Ninja has a class feature named AC Bonus and is the same Class Feature that the Monk and Don't stack.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

yes, but i should only change the name of the Divine Grace of the evils paladin for dark blessing, many evil creature have it instead of divine grace and many good character have divine grace then is easy argue that Dark Blessing are the same that Divine Grace but for evil character and Divine Grace is the same that Dark Blessing but for Good Characters.

Then if you are evil you can't gain Divine Grace and if you are Good you can't gain DarkBlessing unles you had the Hellbred race (GOOD but EVIL at the same time).



Oma, you are on the correct path of reasoning, despite your english.  I understand it that the spanish language only has a fraction of the words that the english one does, so you are doing really well.  

Divine in the game means "from the god".  So good or evil.  That breaks down to, "sacred or profane". You seem to understand the common sense going on here. (I hope that "common sense" means the same thing to you in your idiom.  You seem to be agreeing with me on that).

As soon as the munchkin player can show me his multi-class character that shows that his character has two separate charisma scores (source) [I have a 17 charisma in paladin and a 16 charisma in blackguard] and two separate evil alignments (source) [hey look guys, I learned a whole new way to be evil over here in this prestige class!], I'll be happy to let them stack.  Until then:


Stacking


In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).


So, all that said, Oma, thanks for having my back this once. 



Well, like I said there is no real wrong way to play, that was my major point, so don't take what I say as an attack on your play style or a clame that you're wrong for the ruling you support. To be honest as a DM I see and agree with your point on this Nue and oma0, but in terms of the mathematical and rule aspect I would have to say that they would stack since they are untyped bonuses. Saying that they are the same ability and the name is fluff at one point and then claiming that the label of divine or unholy grave determines them to be either sacred or profane bonuses is a bit of a self defeating argument however in my mind since your arguing against the validity with he same point your trying to counter, just worded differently.

Keeping in mind that I do agree that it is to powerful in my opinion, my ruling on this as a DM would simply be that since the evil paladins are variants that they're base lay in the black guards design meaning they couldn't take levels in both classes, much like a totem barbarian cant take levels in other totem barbarian classes. To me that seems like a much more reasonable way to word it if a player ever wanted to argue doing it since it fallows a reason of game design and simply isn't based on a bias towards munchyness.
Actually Steven, it's already printed for the ninja class, to make sure munchkins don't add the obvious monk ability twice.

honestly, that strengthens my point. The ninja class specifically calls out an example where it would not stack. This does not. Specific beats general.


- Neue, you seem like a generally decent guy and you'd be welcome at my table, even if we disagree on this (and probably a few other) point.

"In a way, you are worse than Krusk"                               " As usual, Krusk comments with assuredness, but lacks the clarity and awareness of what he's talking about"

"Can't say enough how much I agree with Krusk"        "Wow, thank you very much"

"Your advice is the worst"                                                  "I'd recommend no one listed to Krusk's opinions about what games to play"

Actually Steven, it's already printed for the ninja class, to make sure munchkins don't add the obvious monk ability twice.

honestly, that strengthens my point. The ninja class specifically calls out an example where it would not stack. This does not. Specific beats general.

True, but like all things, it's subject to DM discretion.  I wouldn't allow it either; what I'd probably do, though, is change the class feature name in the Evil pally variants to Dark Blessing.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
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