Question about this DPR king build

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I was looking at this and trying to figure out how they got 3 attacks and it appears as though this build is ONLY valid if you are level 30, whichmakes it very useless in any real application.


community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...


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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Kava, level 30
Dragonborn, Warlock/Fighter, Ninefold Master, Arcane Sword
Eldritch Pact (Hybrid) Option: Sorcerer-King Pact (Hybrid)
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Hybrid Warlock Option: Hybrid Warlock Reflex
Draconic Resistance Option: Draconic Resistance Cold
Arcane Admixture Damage Type: Arcane Admixture Fire
Dragonborn Racial Power Option: Dragon Breath
Dragon Breath Key Ability: Dragon Breath Constitution
Dragon Breath Damage Type: Dragon Breath Lightning
Adaptable Breath Option: Dragon Breath Cold
Theme: Yakuza
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 24, CON 26, DEX 14, INT 13, WIS 10, CHA 15
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 16, DEX 12, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 11
 
 
AC: 27 Fort: 34 Ref: 28 Will: 27
HP: 184 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 54
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +27, Endurance +28, Intimidate +24, Streetwise +24
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +17, Dungeoneering +15, Heal +15, History +18, Insight +15, Nature +15, Perception +15, Religion +16, Stealth +17, Thievery +17
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Yakuza Utility: Ruthless Demonstration
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragon Breath
Warlock's Curse  Power: Warlock's Curse
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Ninefold Master Attack 11: Dragon Aura
Ninefold Master Utility 12: Countering Breath
Ninefold Master Attack 20: Dragon Tempest
Arcane Sword Utility 26: Mass Aegis
 
FEATS
Level 1: Draconic Spellcaster
Level 2: Daunting Breath
Level 4: Bolstering Breath
Level 6: Hurl Breath
Level 8: Adaptable Breath
Level 10: Dragonclaw Mark
Level 11: Admixture Breath
Level 12: Draconic Arrogance
Level 14: Dizzying Mace
Level 16: Frost Breath
Level 18: Thundering Breath
Level 20: Arcane Admixture
Level 21: Heart of the Blade
Level 22: Freezing Breath
Level 24: Deadly Immobilization
Level 26: Concussive Breath
Level 28: Superior Implement Training (Ashen rod)
Level 30: Dual Implement Spellcaster
 
ITEMS
Battle-Pact Ashen rod +6 x1
Arkhosian Scepter Ashen rod +6 x1



I don't suppose there is anything like this even in low epic? 
Are you refering to the fact that he uses Dragon Breath pretty much at-will? Because that's a Rebreather, and they come online at level 2.
And really, not being a sorc makes it a waste of time. This isn't really a DPR King, a good rebreather,  or a good build in general to be fair.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
"whichmakes it very useless in any real application."

You need to understand that the vast majority of crazy-opped builds, most certainly the crazy high DPR builds, are ALL useless in real application because they take away the fun for a lot of people, if not everyone  at the table entirely.  Most DMs won't even allow quite a few RAW exploits that make a lot of builds really shine, because balancing encounters against it is a chore and aggrivates the rest of the players to no end.  So with the exception of the small minority of D&D gamers who do enjoy playing those sorts of games, ALL high-DPR builds should probably be considered more theoretical builds rather than practical realistic builds.
First off, you're on the Op boards Planeswalker. Many of us here participate in, and enjoy high Op games. We view DPR as a useless metric in play, because Nova is so much more ridiculously important that DPR just becomes a way to chest puff nerd style. That being said...

My Rebreather has a great time in actual play. Because I can tailor him to situation.

Need to kill something quick? VoT, Flame Spiral, D-breath, D-breath.
Need to take out minions? A couple breaths.
Need to prone? I have a power for that
A little grouping up? Yeah that too


 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
First off, you're on the Op boards Planeswalker. Many of us here participate in, and enjoy high Op games.


There's an appreciable difference between high op and theory op though, which I assume Planeswalker means. Epic DPR kings are mostly theory, thus useless in normal games. 
But as I said, they're bad theory too, since the belie the huge in play gap between nova and DPR.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
But as I said, they're bad theory too, since the belie the huge in play gap between nova and DPR.


Fair enough on that point, though sven is right in what I meant.
And really, not being a sorc makes it a waste of time. This isn't really a DPR King, a good rebreather,  or a good build in general to be fair.




It is in the DPR king list, so I assume it is in fact a DPR king. I like the fact that it doesn't use nusemnees, that is so hard to keep up with, at least when I tried it between levels 12-16.
Are you kidding me?

First, theres no way it could use Nusemnees. Because its not a sorc, and so can't get Ancient Soul. So...yeah

Second, Nusemnees is easy. Attack and ally, take the damage, take less. I've used it reliably from level 4 to level 20.  
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Are you kidding me?

First, theres no way it could use Nusemnees. Because its not a sorc, and so can't get Ancient Soul. So...yeah

Second, Nusemnees is easy. Attack and ally, take the damage, take less. I've used it reliably from level 4 to level 20.  




I was talking about the standard rebreather build that I assumed was the one you were talking about. As it turns out I was correct, it was the one you use and I just wasn't too fond of it. I modified it a little to trigger with my area power, I can't remember the name off hand, but I took way less DMG and it worked as a recharge very well. I ended up with like 1d4 damage max
I'm not even sure most of this is coherent
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
It's almost 5am and I haven't slept, it might not be
Its almost 5am and you had a successful day? Eh gads!
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Look, if the CB doesn't track Nusemnees for me, it's far too difficult to actually use.
Look, if the CB doesn't track Nusemnees for me, it's far too difficult to actually use.



I'm beyond the CB. I want it on a silver platter. Preferrably with some roasted pistachios and caviar (how did those two come together?)
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Look, if the CB doesn't track Nusemnees for me, it's far too difficult to actually use.




fortunately Nusemnees is in the CB, so no worries.
Look, if the CB doesn't track Nusemnees for me, it's far too difficult to actually use.




fortunately Nusemnees is in the CB, so no worries.



Sure it's in there, but the numbers aren't applied yet - which would make each power so much easier... and I couldn't get the flowchart or flash cards to print off :/
You have flowcharts! Thats badass You could play an entire game off flowcharts. In fact, you could play by yourself if you had thorough enough flowcharts. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
And really, not being a sorc makes it a waste of time. This isn't really a DPR King, a good rebreather,  or a good build in general to be fair.

Waste of time to play?  Yes.
Waste of time to create?  No.

It's fun to get high numbers, even if they arn't useful for real games.  Weather it's the highest DPR, the highest daily nova, the highest running speed, or the most amount of dice you could ever possibly roll at once.

If you just want to win, there's still an infinite action loop or 2.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Look, if the CB doesn't track Nusemnees for me, it's far too difficult to actually use.




fortunately Nusemnees is in the CB, so no worries.



While I don't mean to toot my own horn too much, the reason Nusemnee's works in the builder is because someone threw an unholy bitch-fit to get power rewritten in the article, compendium and character builder.

And don't claim that the Rebreather isn't useful or good in play.  Its actually good to the point that many DMs (including me and I made the darn thing) will not allow it at the table.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here


And don't claim that the Rebreather isn't useful or good in play.  Its actually good to the point that many DMs (including me and I made the darn thing) will not allow it at the table.



This works towards my point. Our game is played with the rules from the CB, per our DM. Matyr's game is played with rules he deems acceptable. I don't see people absolutely raping him for his lack of respect for RAW. If we can't accept the use of a power that is written one way in the compendium then why should a DM be able to deny things that are clearly how they are meant to be? I see several examples of builds that DM's won't allow. I think the DM should be able to make those decisions since the game is played for fun, but I am just saying it is the same thing. We allow CB rules, and some DM's dont' allow twink builds.



And don't claim that the Rebreather isn't useful or good in play.  Its actually good to the point that many DMs (including me and I made the darn thing) will not allow it at the table.



This works towards my point. Our game is played with the rules from the CB, per our DM. Matyr's game is played with rules he deems acceptable. I don't see people absolutely raping him for his lack of respect for RAW. If we can't accept the use of a power that is written one way in the compendium then why should a DM be able to deny things that are clearly how they are meant to be? I see several examples of builds that DM's won't allow. I think the DM should be able to make those decisions since the game is played for fun, but I am just saying it is the same thing. We allow CB rules, and some DM's dont' allow twink builds.




What is this?  I am not saying I change the rules for the Breather.  I'm saying using the rules for the breather in my game would make parts of the game unfun so I ask my players not to play them.

Lets be clear.  None of us are telling you how to play your character at your table.  That isn't happening. What we are saying is that if you have the conversation here, you need to follow the RAW or at least acknowledge the RAW for having the discussions with others.  When I talk about things that I am doing in my games, or my players are doing in my games, I do not assert my own version of the rules.  I don't play with the RAW, but I make myself and my players know what the RAW is.  When we deviate from it I talk to them about it so they know what the baseline is if they go to another table.

Think of RAW as the base structure of a building.  Does it serve it's purpose as a building with just the bare walls and floor?  Yes.  But when people move in they change things, they take out a wall here, or redecorate this there.  They change the hardwood to carpet and add a light fixture to every room.

Why is this similar to RAW?  Because they need to know what walls they shouldn't knock out in order to have the building still function as a building.  Don't break the load-bearing walls, don't break the fire codes with your wiring.  You might still be able to live in it after you do so, but it causes issues.  Now if you, living in that building, talk to an architect (CharOp denizens if you are following along) then he doesn't care about the vase you put in the sunroom.  He gives absolutely 0 ****s about the carpet.  What he is concerned with is structural integrity, how it was built and what holds it together at the seams.  He might advise you to do one thing or another, but it is advice with varying levels of insistance.

TLDR: I don't bring up my houserules and assert that they are base rules of the game, don't claim that I do and don't claim that because I do you are allowed to as well.  Its dishonest to the community and insulting to me.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I love you Matyr
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I have been following the thread and I have to say Matyr: that was so clearly explained, and with such a perfect metaphor, that it nearly brought a tear to my eye. As an English major, I salute you.
This works towards my point. Our game is played with the rules from the CB, per our DM.

Martyr covered it so very nicely, but you really need to understand the distinction being made here. How you play at your home game is irrelevant to anyone here. How you talk about the game on this forum however must be by the actual rules, or you will be constantly corrected for being wrong. If everyone discussed the game based on whatever houserules they play with, there would be no meaningful discusion.

Also think you should point your DM to this thread and see what he has to say about you ignoring a known error in the builder....
I agree, matyr did explain it well, and I was acknowledging his points in my head, until the last sentence where he insulted me and got mad.
Wow do you have a thin skin. Matyr was telling it like it is, and you can't handle it?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I agree, matyr did explain it well, and I was acknowledging his points in my head, until the last sentence where he insulted me and got mad.



I am not angry.  I'm just being firm.  If you want to use something I have said for the basis of your argument you are more than welcome.  If you misuse it and I notice I am obliged to bring it up.  Now if you want to either change premises, change arguments or ignore everything and complain that your presmises and evidence is falling apart you are more than welcome to do that.  I just want no part in being included as a footnote on a ticket that I in no way endorse.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I am not angry.  I'm just being firm.  If you want to use something I have said for the basis of your argument you are more than welcome.  If you misuse it and I notice I am obliged to bring it up.  Now if you want to either change premises, change arguments or ignore everything and complain that your presmises and evidence is falling apart you are more than welcome to do that.  I just want no part in being included as a footnote on a ticket that I in no way endorse.


Matyr should change his name... to MANtyr!

....

I'll just shut up now.  >_>
Explain that one to me?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Because he stood up to me in a way that he construed as being manly I think
Because he stood up to me in a way that he construed as being manly I think

I'm just being stupid.  Mostly because the conversation here is quickly approaching stupid as well.  =)
Agreed.

Can we get back to Matyr finishing his build ? ^^; 
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

But I'm not done with everyone being insecure!
And the Rebreather is pretty much solved at this point, and has been for a while. I don't know what you're talking about...
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
But I'm not done with everyone being insecure!
And the Rebreather is pretty much solved at this point, and has been for a while. I don't know what you're talking about...



I think he means consolidate the info in a central source
Hey, I already revived one of my projects this week.  The fact that I'm working on anything should be a miracle in it's own right.  If you all want to help me finish making a list of example builds...

Having something to offer up as an alternative when people are like "hey, just use the encounters premades" would be really nice.  As the encounters premades are... well terrifyingly bad.  The first time I saw the monk I thought I was being trolled. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I'd be happy to help you with some builds, thanks for the offer.
Anyone remember the gnome paladin premade?
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