Brutal Barrage quick question!

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my question is about the lvl 13 at-will BM power, Brutal Barrage..... i want to know if the target falls prone right after the second hit, or after all 3 attacks (4 with augment 1) are made.

Thanx!!
It falls prone as soon as you hit it for a second time.  So if all four hit the target will be prone for the 3rd and 4th hits.
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Expect significant table variation on this one.

I've seen about 50/50 for either way on the forums (which surprises me) and 80/20 for only proning after you finish making all of the attacks at a table (of the 5 brutal barrage battleminds I've seen).
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
I've also seen it played both ways. I run it as attacks are simultaneous, much like Twin Strike, so prone after you finish making the attacks, if at least two of them hit. This is the difference between powers that say "make the attack X times" in the attack line (Twin Strike, Brutal Barrage), vs powers that say "repeat the attack X times" in the hit/effect line (Storm of Blades).
I've also seen it played both ways. I run it as attacks are simultaneous, much like Twin Strike, so prone after you finish making the attacks, if at least two of them hit. This is the difference between powers that say "make the attack X times" in the attack line (Twin Strike, Brutal Barrage), vs powers that say "repeat the attack X times" in the hit/effect line (Storm of Blades).

But attacks aren't simultaneous. Ever.... that isn't how the attack process works. And, last I checked, we answer questions by RAW.
The melee attacks are not simultaneous, no. But that doesn't mean that you resolve the Effect line before resolving the multiple attacks. It's hardly the only power with that problem. There's a good reason why they started changing the way they wrote powers to avoid the Twin Strike / Claws of the Griffon style notation. It just causes confusion and makes people unsure what's actually written. Though not less sure what's written ;)

Devil's Advocate, for the position that it can't resolve midway*.
Either:
A) You never reach the Effect line until after you resolve the instruction to make the (three or four) attacks, so that you actually have the 2+ attacks to evaluate.
B) You may resolve it as individual attacks. It is not, and can never be, 2+ hits, as it is resolved individually, so the Effect line never triggers.

* No, I don't care one way or another, nor claim one way or another is RAW.

Of course, Iron Vanguard types would probably like to trigger damage for proning on the second, third, and fourth hits, so I'm sure someone will advocate that you can prone multiple times and deal damage each time.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
But attacks aren't simultaneous. Ever.... that isn't how the attack process works. And, last I checked, we answer questions by RAW.

We can argue this till everyone's blue in the face, but yes, twin strike is a simulataneous attack. That is why you declare whether you are attacking one or two targets before you attack. That is why you can choose which attack you want to apply your hunter's quarry to after you roll both attacks. That is why if one attack bloodies the target the second attack doesn't suddenly get your bloodied target bonuses. That is why you can't inflict lasting frost vulnerability with the first attack and apply the vulnerability to the second attack. The attacks are simultaneous. You will likely claim that I am wrong on all accounts, call me delusional, whatever. I won't say you're wrong for wanting to resolve attacks sequentially, as that makes rules lawyering a heck of a lot easier. And you can answer questions by RAW, I'll answer them as best I am able to interpret the rules, and the way I see them played in practice.

I'm wrong.

You're flatly wrong and, what is worse, the things you are claiming are flatly wrong in a large variety of ways. So much so that you are essentially just making things up and ignoring the rules entirely.

RC pg 214 (and it was in the PHB, as well), attack process.

Step 1. Pick Power.
Step 2. Pick targets. Note that picking targets has nothing to do with the attacks.
Step 3. Make an attack roll. Singular.
Step 4. Crit/Hit/Miss.
Step 5. Apply damage and other things from attack roll.
Step 6. If the power makes another attack roll, repeat steps 3-5 for that attack roll.

See how that isn't simulatenous? Because I do. You pick both targets for Twin Strike at the same time because the rules say to, not because the attacks are simultaneous. You can apply Quarry to either one because Quarry has a specific rule built-in that says you roll all your attack rolls for the round (not turn, not action, the entire round) before you pick which one you want to apply Quarry to. If one attack bloodies the target, the second one does get bonuses to attacking a bloodied target. You do get Lasting Frost on attack number if two if the first one hit, assuming Cold and etc.

Now according to your explanation, which is wrong in every way, you couldn't say take an Immediate Reaction to one attack. Simultaneous would mean you'd have to wait for both to resolve. Have you ever seen anyone play that way? Because for all the retarded mistakes I've seen in actual play, that isn't among them. Now either you do play that both attacks resolve (which means you can't invalidate the second part of a mulit-attack ever, which oh by the way has numerous examples between FAQs and in-text examples saying you can) or your ruling makes zero sense.

And yeah, I'm going to keep answering questions according to the actual rules, rather than what you and your friends make up at home. Can't imagine why I'd pick the actual rules in a forum dedicated to playing around with the actual rules.
The melee attacks are not simultaneous, no. But that doesn't mean that you resolve the Effect line before resolving the multiple attacks. It's hardly the only power with that problem. There's a good reason why they started changing the way they wrote powers to avoid the Twin Strike / Claws of the Griffon style notation. It just causes confusion and makes people unsure what's actually written. Though not less sure what's written ;).

I wasn't even addressing the OP's question, it is the idea that attacks are simultaneous that is just flatly wrong. It had to be addressed, because it is so far wrong that it isn't even a houserule, it is just stupid. It'd be unworkable in practice once you had any multi-attack get reacted to or interrupted.
But attacks aren't simultaneous. Ever.... that isn't how the attack process works. And, last I checked, we answer questions by RAW.

We can argue this till everyone's blue in the face, but yes, twin strike is a simulataneous attack.



No, it specifically isn't.  The rules for reactions between attacks even call out twin strike specifically as the example of the fact that there is a point between multi-attacks at which reactions can trigger to the first attack - and if that reaction invalidates the remaining attack, the remaining attack is lost.  They are most definitely sequential, not simultaneous, because you can kill the dude doing them in-between strikes, and the later one will never happen.

You are wrong.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
By the way, OP, the answer I stated is still correct.  It will prone halfway through.
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Okay I'm wrong. What the **** is the difference between an attack line that says make the attack X times, and an effect line that says to repeat the attack X times?
Depends on whether the effect line is indented.  If the attack says 'make the attack 3 times' in the target line, you egt to make all the attacks regardless of their success.  Many 'Effect: make a secondary attack' lines are indented, meaning that the secondary attack only happens if you hit.

However, really, the answer is that the former is an earlier, and less clear, way of noting the intended effect.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
However, really, the answer is that the former is an earlier, and less clear, way of noting the intended effect.

I see... I tend to resolve powers top down. So when I see "make two attacks" I'd always pick up two d20's and make two attacks, did not care which one was first or second. I see this is wrong now, particularly after seeing the example in immediate reactions, which somehow I had missed before. Wish those powers were written with a "repeat the attack" in an effect line.
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"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Can I chime in to say that I'm really glad Mengu is the type of person who can admit when they are wrong and not adopt a foul attitude?  2pts Mengu.
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Thank you for contacting us!

Q: Does a target that gets hit with Brutal Barrage go prone after the first two hits or after the power resolves?

A: The target would fall prone after the the final hit has been dealt.

I hope that this has answered your question.
If you have any more questions feel free to contact us again!


So all 3 (4 attacks with augment 1) have to be made, and after that the target would fall prone!
Thank you for contacting us!

Q: Does a target that gets hit with Brutal Barrage go prone after the first two hits or after the power resolves?

A: The target would fall prone after the the final hit has been dealt.

I hope that this has answered your question.
If you have any more questions feel free to contact us again!


So all 3 (4 attacks with augment 1) have to be made, and after that the target would fall prone!



Nope.  Customer Service are wrong.

This happens a lot.
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Thank you for contacting us!

Q: Does a target that gets hit with Brutal Barrage go prone after the first two hits or after the power resolves?

A: The target would fall prone after the the final hit has been dealt.

I hope that this has answered your question.
If you have any more questions feel free to contact us again!


So all 3 (4 attacks with augment 1) have to be made, and after that the target would fall prone!



Yet another reason never to ask CS anything unless you are trying to game the system and use whatever answer you want for something in a game.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Thank you for contacting us!

Q: Does a target that gets hit with Brutal Barrage go prone after the first two hits or after the power resolves?

A: The target would fall prone after the the final hit has been dealt.

I hope that this has answered your question.
If you have any more questions feel free to contact us again!


So all 3 (4 attacks with augment 1) have to be made, and after that the target would fall prone!

CS is wrong 97% of the time if the question is at all ambiguous, so technically they are better then a coin flip, so long as you do the opposite of what they say. I wish that number was made up, but when I get bored I asked CS questions and that is their average to date.

Hopefully you learned a valuable lesson about asking CS questions.

a member of my party is completely sure that BB prones after all 3 hits have been dealt, he says so because of the following 2 main reasons:


1 - acording to the RC page 92, the order of the entries in a power's description define the sequence in wich the power's effects occur. Therefor BB prones after all hits have been dealt.


2 - In the effect's description there's a confusing statement ("If you hit the target two OR MORE TIMES, it falls prone.") which somehow gives the idea that you could hit the target more than twice before falling prone... thus all 3 hits must be dealt before reading the effect's entry.

Yep, basically. It is nearly guaranteed that RAI is for it to prone afterwards. RAW I tend to see an even split on the boards.

At the table, I've only ever seen one person try to make it prone right away and apply the damage. And that includes a couple powergamers who knew of the other interpretation.

Recognize that this is the Character Optimization board, though. It's only logical to expect an answer that is more effective, if there's any confusion or argument.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">1 - acording to the RC page 92, the order of the entries in a power's description define the sequence in wich the power's effects occur. Therefor BB prones after all hits have been dealt.


..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">That's a potentially workable argument - that the Attack and Hit lines should all be repeated before the Effect line is reached even once.  Unfortunately, while that might be intended, that's not how powers resolve.

2 - In the effect's description there's a confusing statement ("If you hit the target two OR MORE TIMES, it falls prone.") which somehow gives the idea that you could hit the target more than twice before falling prone... thus all 3 hits must be dealt before reading the effect's entry.


No, that's just nonsense.  The reason is says "or more" times is to prevent arguments over whether or not it still prones if you hit THREE times.
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Damage types and resistances: A working house rule.

I also applaud Mengu for being able to admit he was wrong and then ask for clarification.  *high fives Mengu*

As for the question at hand I have to agree with each hit resolving as Alcestis linked which is to say repeat steps 3-5 for each hit meaning that the target would be proned on hit 2.

As for the CS, unfortunately they have been shown time and time again to be just simply wrong and continuing to give them any form of credit for the rulings they make is folly.  Being proven to be wrong 97% of the time (factual proof has been provided) should make it clear to everyone that they are not a source that should be trusted.  Ever.

For the arguments presented by Phasolord, the sequence shown by Alcestis earlier also answers the first argument.


Step 1. Pick Power.
Step 2. Pick targets. Note that picking targets has nothing to do with the attacks.
Step 3. Make an attack roll. Singular.
Step 4. Crit/Hit/Miss.
Step 5. Apply damage and other things from attack roll.
Step 6. If the power makes another attack roll, repeat steps 3-5 for that attack roll.


I also agree with LordOfWeasels as to the answer to the second argument.  Odds are good that's the reason. 

"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"

IMAGE(http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/19.jpg)

The interpretations can also lead to fun with Wildblood Frenzy and Hurricane of Blades Infinite attacks tend to get smacked down faster than proning, though.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director

I also applaud Mengu for being able to admit he was wrong and then ask for clarification.  *high fives Mengu*

As for the question at hand I have to agree with each hit resolving as Alcestis linked which is to say repeat steps 3-5 for each hit meaning that the target would be proned on hit 2.

As for the CS, unfortunately they have been shown time and time again to be just simply wrong and continuing to give them any form of credit for the rulings they make is folly.  Being proven to be wrong 97% of the time (factual proof has been provided) should make it clear to everyone that they are not a source that should be trusted.  Ever.


--Snip--


But if you can trust a dishonest person to be dishonest (honestly!), can't you trust an incorrect person to be incorrect?
a member of my party is completely sure that BB prones after all 3 hits have been dealt, he says so because of the following 2 main reasons:

1 - acording to the RC page 92, the order of the entries in a power's description define the sequence in wich the power's effects occur. Therefor BB prones after all hits have been dealt.


2 - In the effect's description there's a confusing statement ("If you hit the target two OR MORE TIMES, it falls prone.") which somehow gives the idea that you could hit the target more than twice before falling prone... thus all 3 hits must be dealt before reading the effect's entry.


It's worth pointing out that the phrasing on page 92 is not so hard-and-fast:

"The order of entries in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power's effects occur."


The specific line in Brutal Barrage quoted above overrides this general rule, which is likely meant to address more obvious things like Effect lines that come before an attack.

Or older powers like Nimble Strike whose Effect might be considered misplaced nowadays.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
It's worth pointing out that the phrasing on page 92 is not so hard-and-fast:

"The order of entries in a power description is a general guide to the sequence in which the power's effects occur."


The specific line in Brutal Barrage quoted above overrides this general rule, which is likely meant to address more obvious things like Effect lines that come before an attack.


It is even more blatant then that, actually. It isn't a matter of BB overriding anything, a quick trip the actual rules entry for Effects in a power (all of two pages down):

"Effect: Whatever is described in an "Effect" entry simply happens, regardless of its position in the sequence of entries." RC 96.

Keithric being snidely wrong aside, there is no debate about the RAW or the RAI. Unless you want to argue that the person who wrote BB didn't understand the power rules all that well, which in cases is a credible argument. Just not this one.
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