76125763 wrote:Zindaras' meta is like a fossil, ancient and its secrets yet to be uncovered. Only men of yore, long dead, knew of it.
This is awesome - congratulations on getting it all up and running!There's a potentially controversial question I'm curious about: Does the LPS (or do you personally) have a stance on the question of WotC's art direction and diversity and inclusion in general? It's a somewhat frequently raised problem with both Magic and Dungeons and Dragons that a fair proportion of the art is sexist verging on soft porn. All the usual defences get trotted out every time this is raised, but I find it does leave women - particularly the sorts of people who might otherwise get on quite well with Magic - feeling as though they aren't really part of the game's target demographic.
The thought that struck me pretty much constantly throughout this article was...why women?It helps that you allow people to take male players with them, but nothing written here sounds very gender-exclusive. There are probably enough male players that aren't looking to play competitively but would prefer to play very in a very much laid-back environment. Do you exclude these people and, if so, why?
Including women. There have been a number of noteworthy women in the game from the beginning, such as Elaine Chase, but the percentages speak for themselves—not as many women play
Jennifer Meyen wrote:The Lady Planeswalkers Society (LPS) is an unofficial play group that has successfully built a welcoming, friendly environment for women to learn, play, and compete at
Must all women "get together and fight this male oppression" when it comes to gaming !?
The thought that struck me pretty much constantly throughout this article was...why women?
I suppose it wasn't just me thinking of it. i found the article extremely sexist ! Must all women "get together and fight this male oppression" when it comes to gaming !? We don't have many ladies playing in our local store but we treat them no different from the rest of the people ! We don't knuckle-punch, obviously, but we never make them feel out of place, so much that they're "forced" to create their own group.Apologies to be blunt, but, what a terrible article! p.s. -- as far as your "creative writing" goes, I think you just fell a wee bit short
Guys look good, too. They don't look fat, weak, or lame unless there's some reason.
Guys look good, too. They don't look fat, weak, or lame unless there's some reason.
Sure, but that's not really the point.Look at the art on cards like Chandra, the Firebrand and Sublime Archangel. Whether they "look good" is not the point so much as the fact that they're both dressed and posed for the cover of a top shelf magazine. There are dozens - maybe hundreds of cards like this.Male characters in Magic art are not sexualised in this way.
Barriers I perceive, shorthanded as I can be:1) It starts with the social gender divide. Our genders are still traditionally divided based on what we should "like". It abstracts and we are conditioned to want to be logical and independent as guys, or sensitive and empathetic as girls. Then it eventually gets to stuff as meaningless as colors like blue and pink...
d) Third, we stink. I don't actually understand why so many players don't value personal hygiene at all. Honestly, it's probably not that many. All it takes is one stinky dude to make us all have to go outside for some breathable air between rounds. Stores make the embarassing point now, too, that all players shouldn't stink. This is an issue for all players in general. But it applies even moreso to girls, who on average value image more highly. Some of us can tolerate it to some degree, but most girls won't put up with it for a second, and they shouldn't have to.
To address your second question first, I notice a lot in the article about INcluding women, and nothing about EXcluding men. ("Thirty to forty percent of the people who come play regularly are male...We are not an exclusive group outside of the community, but a subset within.")
But to answer your first question, "why women?" seems like a question with an easy answer: because the vast majority of Magic players (myself included) are male. When a woman shows up to play at any of the game stores I've been to, she's the only woman there. Which makes her "the woman." On the other hand, if she shows up to one of these LPS events, she's just another new player--just like I was when I showed up to my first FNM and annoyed everybody by playing too slowly.
Also, a relevant percentage of men are sexist jerks, and having an environment that will keep that in check is likely to be a big help to our hypothetical new player. (Note that this is seperate from my previous point--being the only woman in the room will more or less inevitably make her "the woman" regardless of whether people are jerks about it; obviously it's much worse if they are.)
Because there are not many of us. Because so often the women who come to play are people who show up once or twice. Because it's hard not to think, after you've seen it for years, that maybe some of these women are not staying because they were never interested -- but some of them are probably driven away. Because it gets boring and disheartening to go every week and see so few people who look like you.
Because, like the article mentioned, when you're the only steady female player and you're on a losing streak, it's hard not to feel like the guys around you will get the message that girls can't play or girls aren't good enough, even though you know that you don't "have" to be the best. Because sometimes you feel alone or like people see you as a joke even if you know it's not true.
Look, guys -- it's not about thinking you don't like us. It's not even about being angry with you. Would I go to play every week at FNM if I didn't like the local male players? No, I would stay home! But it gets lonely feeling like I am the only one. Just like it gets lonely sometimes feeling like I am the only LGBT person, especially when the younger guys around are saying "That card is gay."These are not bad people. Many are my friends! But they mess up sometimes, or say or do things that make me uncomfortable. It sometimes feels frustrating to stick around when that's going on.I don't agree with every word of the article myself. But I am glad to see this initiative because it makes me feel more welcome and less "weird."There's a lot of discussion in online circles going around about women feeling unwelcome in geeky circles in general, about some jerkish male geeks deciding that some women are "fake geek girls." Geeky women of all sorts want to be involved in fun stuff of all sorts, but we sometimes feel pushed away. I'm glad to see this initiative, and even more glad to see Wizards treating it as important enough to let us know about it.We're not your enemies, guys. We just want to feel fully included, and sometimes we don't feel we are. I don't think most of us think any individual guy or shadowy cabal of guys is intending this. I think most of us think guys may not even realize this is going on, because they're not us.
3) So girls of course can be nerds or gamers or whatever, too. The biggest immediate issue, as stated before, is not that these girls hate us or anything, it's simply that they would like to see more girls play with them. This isn't shocking. The social gender divide makes us split. My friend groups have been guys since I was a kid, when I was a teenager, in high school, and now. That's just how it is. I'm sure girls feel the same way.Why do we do the things we do? Most often it's because our friends are doing it. Our friends are the same gender. So there you go, this is a reason girls don't play: they're persuaded by their friends to do other things.So if anything, any girl that plays this game has some amount of courage to put up with us, and love of the game enough to fight for what she wants to do.The point of the LPS is like the gamer girl society of FragDolls: give the gender at least some way to connect with the others like them. They cross the social divide, we all want to do what we want to do, these groups' purpose is simply to let them do that-- connect and play.
Guys look good, too. They don't look fat, weak, or lame unless there's some reason.
Sure, but that's not really the point.Look at the art on cards like Chandra, the Firebrand and Sublime Archangel. Whether they "look good" is not the point so much as the fact that they're both dressed and posed for the cover of a top shelf magazine. There are dozens - maybe hundreds of cards like this.Male characters in Magic art are not sexualised in this way.(To be fair to WotC, we do now get some female characters who aren't treated like this. Student of Warfare, for example - hopefully these can become the norm rather than the exception.)
While I agree that there are problems, I think the best solution would be to make gender a non-issue. By separating oneself from the rest of the group because one is different, one only emphasises these differences. In my store, the recent prereleases saw the number of women increase from one to three. When there was one girl, she was pretty unique. When there are three girls, it basically already becomes a non-issue.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand why you would feel so strongly that way. You go there to play Magic, right? I would say that makes you first and foremost a Magic player, at least while you're there. At that point, whatever someone looks like seems like a secondary interest at best.
I want to take a moment here to say something to all female Magic players:Being a female Magic player does not make you unique. Having two X-chromosomes does not make you unique. It is the entire sequence of your DNA, every single pair of the 3.2 billion, that makes you unique and that makes you you. And every single person in that room playing Magic is as unique and as weird as you are.
I may be heavily biased by my personal viewpoint here (I had almost exclusively male friends in elementary school, but a mix leaning towards females ever since), but I don't think focusing on this social divide and accepting it is a good idea. I prefer talking and playing with girls. In general, they are not as ultra-competitive or mind-boggingly boring as most boys, and in most games they tend to be better team players and less annoying.I want to have fun with someone who wants to have fun in the same way that I do. Their gender seems utterly and totally irrelevant.
So again, I'm not asking you to agree with me, or assume I'm right on everything, or not call me on it if you think I've been mean. But I am asking you to listen when someone says she's noticed this, and think about it.
It's not about completely seceding. It's about having an extra option. Having a stepping stone. Until something is a non-issue, you have to emphasize the difference. If you try to hide the difference, try to fit in, you are just being untrue to who you are. So yes while emphasizing the differences is not an ideal situation, it's better than the alternative.
MaRo himself emphasizes often that one of Magic's strongest points is its community. It's not just 'a game' and you're not just 'a player'. The people matter.
Untrue. The avarage man has more in common with other men than with the avarage woman.
Except it isn't, as being not ultra-competitive, better team players, and whatever is your taste in 'not boring' are all skewed towards women.
Including women. There have been a number of noteworthy women in the game from the beginning, such as Elaine Chase, but the percentages speak for themselves—not as many women play Magic as men. I wanted to tackle this fact and try to overcome any obstacles women face, someday hoping to make this a fact of the past.
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This is awesome - congratulations on getting it all up and running!There's a potentially controversial question I'm curious about: Does the LPS (or do you personally) have a stance on the question of WotC's art direction and diversity and inclusion in general? It's a somewhat frequently raised problem with both Magic and Dungeons and Dragons that a fair proportion of the art is sexist verging on soft porn.
While I agree that there are problems, I think the best solution would be to make gender a non-issue. By separating oneself from the rest of the group because one is different, one only emphasises these differences.
Actually, this has a very simple biological reason. The female nose is generally stronger than the male one. So whenever a girl complains about a smell and a guy doesn't really smell much and think she's overreacting, she probably isn't.
Which means that the conversation is, essentially, a bunch of guys talking amongst yourselves about whether this is a problem and what or what not to do about it -- instead of talking to the woman who chose to reveal herself and try to answer your questions.
192884403 wrote:surely one can't say complex conditional passive language is bad grammar ?
Guess I have to post here because the email to author isn't working... I hate to air out some Magic dirty laundry, but did I have a horrible experience at PAX and not getting any sort of response to talking about my concerns has left me feeling like quitting competitive MTG altogether.I have played since Revised. Like many people I had to take a few years off for financial reasons in school, but I was sucked back in by friends I made post college. I know my stuff and, as someone with a techincal background, I'm used to being "the girl." So whatever. I have noticed in the last four to five years there have been less and less women at the events in my area. I understood it because I found the tone of the other players (as a group, not individuals, some are still cool people) had become largely uncomfortable. (Not taking me seriously, being extra rude, suggesting someone else had helped me or I was cheating...) At first I just stopped playing individual events, but I've slowly even stopped playing team/2HG events because even having my male friends at my side doesn't "protect" me.Then I went to PAX for the first time this fall. In the MTG booth I was honestly openly ridiculed by two grown "men" when I inquired about what they were promoting. I just stood there in shock. Thankfully, a younger gentleman overheard and stepped in to pull me towards the 2013 Planeswalker demo before the guys said anything else to me. He was fun and we talked - a good "face" for MTG. However the next day, the very short version is I was ignored and then told to "Go away" by judges at the Annex MTG play area when I was trying to figure out where to sign up. I was so angry. MTG has strong female characters already included in cards and literature... we should be drawn to the game. It hurts to be treated so badly, even more so as a long time player. I have attempted to contact Wizards, but haven't gotten a response. Reading this thread I see more examples of why I feel I've already played my last event. My male friends comment how they've never faced off against a "mean" female player, but could do without many of the male players they see at events... and now I'll become one more female player that has left the table. Maybe this grassroots kind of movement would help, but the reactions here easily show how far it has to go to get to some sort of normal acceptance... which is really sad.
Yes, exactly my point. People identify themselves as a Magic player. I would expect that to take some precedence.
Untrue. The avarage man has more in common with other men than with the avarage woman.The average Magic player has more in common with other Magic players than with the average non-Magic player.The average female Magic player has more in common with other female Magic players than with the average of the rest of the population.The average Dutch female Magic player has more in common with other Dutch female Magic players than with the average of the rest of the population.And so, we can go on and compartmentalise ourselves farther and farther until we are perfectly describing ourselves. And to what end? What's the point? Some of my best friends would fall outside of basically every compartment that I would fit in, while I know people that are very much like me that I can't talk to for more than a minute.
Again, my issue here is the question of exclusivity. If I read this article, the LPS seems to be about an experience. An experience that is interesting not just to females, but also to males.
Edit: Since you put me together with him, I also want to make clear that I disagree rather strongly with LuisSpellcast on this issue. I don't think this article is sexist. I do not interpret this article as he does. I want to make that very clear.
While I agree that there are problems, I think the best solution would be to make gender a non-issue. By separating oneself from the rest of the group because one is different, one only emphasises these differences.That pretty much summs up my thoughts.
That's basically how I feel about feminism. Don't mind women doing what they want to do, we just need to, as a culture, make sure we drift toward some middle ground, rather than make a bunch of Men vs Women groups.
Guess I have to post here because the email to author isn't working... I hate to air out some Magic dirty laundry, but did I have a horrible experience at PAX and not getting any sort of response to talking about my concerns has left me feeling like quitting competitive MTG altogether.
Wow that is some serious stuff =(Have you tried mailing MaRo? He always says he'll take on any mails and gets it to the right people.I can't believe Wizards hasn't replied to you about this, it seems very bad for business and something measures must be taken for.
I will probably respond to some other posts later, but my feelings regarding the LPS are mostly determined by the following scenario:Jennifer, what do you if you see a male player at your local FNM who is clearly new? He is losing, he is playing slowly, and it doesn't look like he's having a great time. Do you invite him to come over to play at the LPS or not?If the answer is yes, then I really think what you have here is good (and I can actually understand and accept the slant towards women). If the answer is no, then, well, I think it should be yes.
I think the point that is getting lost is there are a lot more opportunities and groups that will take on a new male player and show him the ropes. It is just part of the established culture - as been mentioned before MTG is mostly marketed to the teens/20s male gamer.