Asking for optimization help Duskblade.

74 posts / 0 new
Last post
I have been invited into a D &D 3.5 game however I have been given limitations on my build by the DM.  Normally I would make a wizard because they are great and I know how to optimize, but good optimizer can work with limitations.

However a great optimizer asks other optimizers for help.

The limitations are
Str 18
Dex 7
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 11
Cha 7

Lvl 13
Alignment CG
Race Dragonblooded of Bahamut (Human. dragonblooded)
Class Duskblade

You have 8 points to spend on stats through normal point-buy
110000 gp for buying equipment no comsumibles

We are allow to use any books however once the game starts we can't bring in any new book.  The world will be built according to with books we use.  I have already read Dictum Mortuum's handbook it is good, but I want a second opionion.

The limitations are
Str 18
Dex 7
Con 16
Int 15
Wis 11
Cha 7

Lvl 13
Alignment CG
Race Dragonblooded of Bahamut (Human. dragonblooded)
Class Duskblade

You have 8 points to spend on stats through normal point-buy
110000 gp for buying equipment no comsumibles


What kind of "limitations" are those?  I see AMAZING stats already and it seems you're saying you can boost them even higher.  Your equipment value is right in line with what 13th-level character SHOULD have although I think he's being a little hard when it comes to consumables although I know why they are sometimes limited.

Now it has been a while since I've looked at the Duskblade and while I enjoy using it to meet spellcasting prereqs for martial PrC when needed I believe that if you're actually going to "play" a Duskblade you don't need to do any multiclassing; at least not very early.
 
What exactly is the goal with this duskblade? Typical gish fun? Because I know this great duskblade cheese that lets you do 100ish damage by level 11. It involves scorching ray, blood blade, metamagic, spell storing, and two-handed power attacks. Also, can you use laminated Kaorti weapons?

I would strongly recommend something that looks like this: Duskblade 7/Abjurant Champion 5/Exotic Weapon Master 1. For EWM, take the stunt that lets you get double strength mod to damage when you wield a one-handed exotic weapon two-handed. Get a laminated Kaorti Weighted Greatsword (Kaorti turns the weapon into an exotic weapon, and gives it a x4 crit mod. Laminated is a simple 1 point increase in threat range that stacks with all other threat range increases.

It's from a Wizard's article but also in a book somewhere, forget which, Google can tell you.) Weighted Greatsword is in Arms and Armor v3.5. 18-20 crit change, 2d8 base damage. Making it out of kaorti turns it into an exotic weapon, take the proficiency feat and then take monkey grip, proceed to wield two-handed. Make it keen or take improved critical. Pick up deathstrike bracers from the magic item compendium. Combine with earlier listed magic tricks. Proceed to destroy ****.

Weapon will be 2d8, double strength mod, 13-20 critical threat range, x4 crit damage, and the deathstrike bracers let you crit stuff you can't normally crit, three times a day. Combining this with power attack is beastly, especially when mixed with certain spells, given the situation. This build is kind of cheesy, and some DMs will pretty much just auto-veto this. The weighted greatsword alone is pretty awesome.
Zaramon, Abjurant Champion is NOT something a Duskblade should really work towards.  For most other gish builds AbC is a must but it really doesn't add all that much to the Duskblade as DB already has a full BAB and gets full casting.  I don't recall which Abjuration spells a DB gets but aside from the one round Deflects most of them don't gain a lot from AbC.  I'll also point out that you probably want to get to DB13 so you can Channel with full attack.

You should also double check what Monkey Grip does.  It DOES NOT let you wield a Greatsword with one hand.  You still need two hands to wield a greatsword although MonkeyGrip would let you wield a LARGE Greatsword with two hands.  I'd also caution you on spending too many feat trying to become "the guy with a massive super sword," because as far as game mechanics go it usually is NOT benefical.
 
What StevenO said. Sorry; I've never played a Duskblade, but "guy using a Cloud sword" tends to suck hard.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
It's not so much limitations so much as I have never played a dusk blade or any other gish class I allways go full marshal or full caster so I don't know the trick for making gish work.  I always though they are underpowered.
To make the Duskblade work I believe it is all about how well you can channel your spells into your attacks.  That's a big part of why you want to get DB 13 so you can take a spell and have it boost a full attack's worth of attacks.

As for a gish being underpowered it all depends on your reference points.  I also depends on how you want to define a gish because there are MANY way to build a character who can use arcane magic and still fight with weapons.  I mean you have some "gish" characters that are mostly spellcasters (admittedly a level or two behind a focused caster and probably without all the focus) that are a bit tougher physically then most casters but still have more then enough magic to "handle" most non-casters.  At the other end you can have some gish characters that are mostly warrior types but who may have a small amount of spellcasting that they can use for various things.  I mentioned using Duskblade as a common way to meet PrC arcane casting requirements and an example of that is just taking a level or two of DB to pick up True Strike and then going into DragonDisciple.
 
They are far from underpowered. They're usually not as good as a full caster, but they're better than pretty much any non-caster, if done correctly. So what restrictions are there, exactly? I'm afb right now, but would something like Goliath barbarian 1/Duskblade X/Rage Mage 1 work? I know the Rage Mage lets you cast while raging, and the Goliath would let you use a big friggin' sword.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I didn't realize duskblade got full caster level. I recommended abjurant champion for that reason, and the arcane boost class feature. Gives you a lot of extra power and versatility. Monkey grip lets you wield two-handed weapons one-handed. Here's the feat.

You can use melee weapons one size category
larger than you are with a –2 penalty on the attack roll, but
the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does
not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed
weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed
weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat.
For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered
a one-handed weapon.

If you have the feat, a large longsword, ordinarily a two-handed weapon, counts as a one-handed weapon.

I forgot about the full attack channel for the duskblade, but the laminated kaorti weapon is the way to go, if the DM will allow it. x4 crit and 13-20 is awesome. I said weighted greatsword because it's a two-handed weapon with 18-20. I suppose you could just as easily go falchion.

Only reason I'm advocating for a two-handed weapon at all is because of the high strength and power attack. This is why I asked about what he wanted for the duskblade in the first place. I just assumed damage.

What StevenO said. Sorry; I've never played a Duskblade, but "guy using a Cloud sword" tends to suck hard.



Depends on how you do it. Fighter 8, barbarian 1, frenzied berserker 10, Exotic Weapon Master 1, Laminated Kaorti Weighted Greatsword. With all the other gear and the rest of the feats, you will be hitting for 200ish damage, without making any kind of use of power attack whatsoever, per attack. Get the impaling quality on the sword, and deathstrike bracers, and you can do full power attacks for truly asinine amounts of damage. Combine it with the combat brute and momentum swing, and you can deal over 1k damage on a single attack.
Draco, you should know better then to suggest Rage Mage!  At least unless you know of a version other then the CW's one which I'll say SUCKS with a d8HD, 3/4BAB and half casting.  Also note that it can only cast spell during one of the PrC's special Rages and still can't cast spells during any normal rage.  Now if RM had a full BAB and d10 HD I'd start considering it but it still wouldn't be a "goto" class for any gish of mine.

When it comes to gish characters you have your mostly marshal types like the Duskblade but if you want "true" spellcasting potential then you probably want to go with a BattleSorcerer (UA/SRD) or a multiclass build using Wizard or Sorcerer.

One comment about any gish character is that most of them still don't use a lot of armor.  If you have DEX 7 you're probably going to be wearing heavier armors and that is going to hinder your spellcasting.  I know there are ways a character can cast in full plate armor but I'd set my sights a lot lower and usually go with some kind of light armor; several classes let you cast in light armor without ASF and that can be improved to medium with a feat while other classes/thing will lower the ASF outright.
You bolder the wrong sentence, dood. Read the first sentence again, especially the part about "weapons one size category LARGER THAN YOU ARE". This isn't 3e, it's 3.5; 2H weapons are called 2H weapons, not Large weapons anymore. It doesn't work the way you think it does.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You bolder the wrong sentence, dood. Read the first sentence again, especially the part about "weapons one size category LARGER THAN YOU ARE". This isn't 3e, it's 3.5; 2H weapons are called 2H weapons, not Large weapons anymore. It doesn't work the way you think it does.



It totally does work the way I think it does. That's the 3.5 version of the feat. It says weapons one size category larger. Medium character, large weapon. Look at the sentence I underlined again. You can use large weapons with one hand if you're a medium sized character, so long as you have the feat. It says so right in there. A greatsword is only a large bastard sword, and a small greatsword is just a bastard sword. The only thing that determines whether or not a weapon is two-handed, is the size relative to the creature wielding it. That's why ogres can wield greatswords one-handed. The only reason greatswords are listed as 2h in the PHB is because there are no large races in the PHB. Hell, there are even different damage entries for weapons of different sizes. If you have both EWPs, you could do it.

Edit: Wait, my bad, large longsword skips bastard sword. What was I thinking. Large Longsword is a greatsword. So you only need one EWP.
A duskblade just really if I recall correctly needs a 2h weapon level 13 and as many power attack increases/flat damage as possible to use wraith strike to hit touch while doing full power attacks. Vampiric touch can help keep your hp up if you worried and I believe they get swift flight/dimension door if in a rocky spot. Just my 2 cents I was in a campaign with a duskblade once and it looked quite fun from a utility and from a damage perspective. Also I should mention they are what hexblades should have been
How important is playing a Duskblade to you (vice playing some other class)?  Do you just want to play a Gish?  Putting all your levels in Cleric (or Battle Sorcerer, as mentioned earlier) can give you a Gish just as easily.  That's not to say you shouldn't play a Duskblade if you don't want to - it's just that Duskblade isn't normally considered a standard Gish class, since it has no buff spells (the stapple of most Gishes) and almost all attack spells.

The Duskblade works by dealing damage/debuffs, usually by combining melee attacks with spellcasting.  As StevenO said, focus on that and you should be golden.  Is there any particular reason why you selected Dragonborn as your race?  A suggestion I might give you is to consider playing an illumian, as then you could pull the aeshkrau sigil and then base your bonus spells off of your strength score - a definite plus for a strength-based Gish.
Also I should mention they are what hexblades should have been



This. The only really solid hexblade build is a heavy debuffer/life-drainer.
I didn't pick to play a duskblade.  I was given a survy before the game which I filled out and they gave me the stuff you see there.  I just sort of want to know what spells, feats and items to take.  Right now my thinking is

feats:
Knowledge Devotion
Obtain familiar
Improved familiar (IMP)
Power Attack
Versatile Spellcaster

spells
 
oth
touch of fatigue
1st 5
Chill Touch (touch attack, lasts r-p-lv, 1d6 extra cold damage and 1 Strength damage undead saving throw or run) 
Shocking Grasp (touch attack, 5d6 extra damage +3 attack if target is metal or wearing)
True Strike (standard action, +20 insight bonus to next attack)
Resist Energy(130 min 30 points resistance choices acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic)
Obscuring Mist(20 ft radius mist)
2nd 4
Dimension hop(touch attack teleport 30 ft will save 16)
Swift Fly (swift action, fly one round)
Touch of Idiocy (touch attack 1d6 damage to Int, Wis and Cha)
Swift Invisibility (swift action, Invisibility for 1 round)
*Dragonshard 2nd lv Wraithstrike (swift action, one round my attacks are touch attacks)
3rd 3
Greater Magic Weapon (make weapon +4 for 13 hours)
Vampiric Touch (touch attack, 6d6 extra damage gain as much temp hp as damage delt)
*Dragonshard 3rd lv Shivering Touch (touch attack, 3d6 Dex damage)
4th
Dimension door

items:
Hand of Glory (DMG 258) 8,000 gp neck slot
Shadow Clock (DotU) 5,500 shoulder slot
Talisman of Undying Fortitude (MIC). 8,000GP Held
Third Eye Clarity (MIC). 3,000GP, face slot
Horn of Plenty (MIC). 12,000GP held
Handy Haversack 2,000
Belt of Battle (MIC) 12,000 waist
Ring of wizardry 1 20,000 ring
Drake Helm 1 slot (XPH) 8000
*Dragonshard 3rd lv Shivering Touch 5,000 gp
*Wraithstrike 3rd lv 5,000 gp 
Imp carries to buff me
Eternal wand enlarge Person 820 gp
Eternal wand haste 10,900 gp
Eternal wand Heroism 5,000 gp (caster lv 5)
You bolder the wrong sentence, dood. Read the first sentence again, especially the part about "weapons one size category LARGER THAN YOU ARE". This isn't 3e, it's 3.5; 2H weapons are called 2H weapons, not Large weapons anymore. It doesn't work the way you think it does.

It totally does work the way I think it does. That's the 3.5 version of the feat. It says weapons one size category larger. Medium character, large weapon. Look at the sentence I underlined again. You can use large weapons with one hand if you're a medium sized character, so long as you have the feat. It says so right in there. A greatsword is only a large bastard sword, and a small greatsword is just a bastard sword. The only thing that determines whether or not a weapon is two-handed, is the size relative to the creature wielding it. That's why ogres can wield greatswords one-handed. The only reason greatswords are listed as 2h in the PHB is because there are no large races in the PHB. Hell, there are even different damage entries for weapons of different sizes. If you have both EWPs, you could do it.
.


NO.  The feat does NOT work the way you think it does.  Monkey Grip allow you (a medium sized creature) to wield a large longsword with one hand.  A large longsword is NOT the same as a medium sized greatsword even if they have stats that look almost identical.  The lines you have bolded and underlined are just explaining the rule.  NORMALLY, if you wanted to wield a large longsword you're going to need to use two hands to do it but with the Monkey Grip feat you know can do it with one hand; you can still use two hands on the weapon just like you can use two hands on a normal longsword.  No where does it say it makes it easier to wield weapons that normally take two hands to use.

An Ogre can wield a greatsword one handed because it is a two-handed weapon for a smaller creature.  When it does it takes a penalty to his attack rolls using that weapon.  Of course that Ogre may be able to pick up a large longsword with characteristic similar to the greatsword but it wouldn's suffer the penalties for wielding a weapon that isn't properly sized for it.  If you look in the PHB you will see that weapon damage is listed for different sized creatures who may wield that weapon; the table may just cover the small and medium sized versions of the weapons but the table could be expanded to cover the larger and smaller versions of a listed weapons.  The actual "handedness" doesn't change with weapon size except when you try to wield a weapon that is inappropriately sized for you.

I also have some pretty serious doubts about getting a weapon that deals "normal" damage and has a threat range of 13-20/x4.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to show how an 19-20/x2 weapon goes to that?  Please note the source of anything that isn't in the PHB to make verification easier.
 
NO.  The feat does NOT work the way you think it does.  Monkey Grip allow you (a medium sized creature) to wield a large longsword with one hand.  A large longsword is NOT the same as a medium sized greatsword even if they have stats that look almost identical.



2d6, 19-20, x2, 8 lbs, required two-handed for medium creatures, martial weapon. Here, read it again.

For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed
weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed
weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat.
For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered
a one-handed weapon.

See? Large longsword, one handed for a large creature, just like a greatsword, but it's two-handed for a medium sized creature. For something that doesn't have the feat. However, if you do have the feat, a large longsword, something ordinarily a two-handed weapon for a medium sized creature, becomes a one-handed weapon for a medium sized creature, if that medium sized creature has the feat. Straight-up RAW. You cannot argue this. It flat out says it, two-handed weapon becomes a one-handed weapon for a medium sized creature with this feat. Deal.

The lines you have bolded and underlined are just explaining the rule.  NORMALLY, if you wanted to wield a large longsword you're going to need to use two hands to do it but with the Monkey Grip feat you know can do it with one hand; you can still use two hands on the weapon just like you can use two hands on a normal longsword.  No where does it say it makes it easier to wield weapons that normally take two hands to use.



A greatsword is a large longsword. Ever heard of a halfing longsword? It's a shortsword.

I also have some pretty serious doubts about getting a weapon that deals "normal" damage and has a threat range of 13-20/x4.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to show how an 19-20/x2 weapon goes to that?  Please note the source of anything that isn't in the PHB to make verification easier.



No problem.

Greatsword, weighted 80 gp 1d12 2d8 18-20/x2. This is under martial weapons, under the category of swords. This comes from Arms and Armor v3.5. The specific entry is on page 21.

Laminated Steel
Weapons
Laminated steel weapons are forged by a special
process that involves multiple layers of steel being
bonded by softer and more pliable metals, such as
nickel. These layers are then welded and folded
several times over. This produces a fine cutting
edge unmatched by any other mundane forging
process. However, it take a great deal of time to
construct weapons in this way. Only slashing
weapons may be made from laminated steel. A
laminated steel weapon gains a +1 circumstance
bonus to damage rolls and has its threat range
increased by one.
Laminated Steel Weapon: +900 gp

That's from page 41 of More Ultimate Equipment. So now our weighted greatsword has 17-20.


Kaorti items are all constructed from the resin their palms secrete. In most campaigns involving the kaorti, the creation of resin weapons doesn't become an issue because the kaorti normally serve as enemies of the player characters. However, a few kaorti turn rogue and seek to find a home within the world, and others would like to wield the powerful ribbon weapons that they find.


Weapons made from kaorti resin require the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to wield, and each must be specific to each ribbon weapon. For example, if the character acquires one of the ribbon longswords of wounding wielded by the Guardians of Gloom and Despair, she must take the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (longsword) feat. If she has acquired a ribbon dagger also, she must take the dagger version of the feat as well.


Making magical versions of kaorti items is possible. The item maker must use resin it has excreted itself, and also must have the appropriate craft skill and item creations feats. Kaorti resin is particularly suitable for bladed weapons such as daggers and swords. Any resin item must be made as a masterwork item. A resin piercing or slashing weapon has a critical multiple of x4.

The article is here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/200...

You can find more on Kaorti on page 110 of The Fiend Folio.
You're fighting out of your weight class on this one, dood. I'm going to enjoy ripping that post apart in a few hours. However, on the assumption that someone beats me to it...

*grabs popcorn*

I'm going to enjoy watching this Gangnam-style Internet smackdown.

*whispers an aside to adjacent spectator*
Think he's willing to admit when he's wrong, or is he going to be like a certain someone we all know and, ahem, love?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Ill be the aside and return "I'm aware we don't all play apparently tier one shrodingers"
@ff: I wasn't talking about him. I was referring to a certain someone over in PE General that has managed to make several people's "Ignore" list. In fact, I think in most of those cases, he IS the Ignore list.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
@draco1119: woops my bad, thought it was someone else. Sorry for the mix up
NO.  The feat does NOT work the way you think it does.  Monkey Grip allow you (a medium sized creature) to wield a large longsword with one hand.  A large longsword is NOT the same as a medium sized greatsword even if they have stats that look almost identical.



2d6, 19-20, x2, 8 lbs, required two-handed for medium creatures, martial weapon. Here, read it again.

For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat.  For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon.

See? Large longsword, one handed for a large creature, just like a greatsword, but it's two-handed for a medium sized creature. For something that doesn't have the feat. However, if you do have the feat, a large longsword, something ordinarily a two-handed weapon for a medium sized creature, becomes a one-handed weapon for a medium sized creature, if that medium sized creature has the feat. Straight-up RAW. You cannot argue this. It flat out says it, two-handed weapon becomes a one-handed weapon for a medium sized creature with this feat. Deal.

You're wrong but I can already sense a  who isn't going to listen to a thing he's told.  I think you should read up on what weapon size means and how it works.  Pay close attention to this section:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.


All Monkey Grip does is allow you to ignore that second paragraph when wielding a weapon a size larger.
 A greatsword is a large longsword. Ever heard of a halfing longsword? It's a shortsword.

Wrong and wrong.  A greatsword and large longsword share many of the same stats but the large longsword only costs 30 gp while a greatsword costs 50 gp.  A halfling (small) longsword?  It is a SLASHING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 15gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  A shortsword?  Well it's a PIERCING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 10gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  Oh yeh, those two items MUST BE THE SAME WEAPON despite doing different damage types and having different costs.
I also have some pretty serious doubts about getting a weapon that deals "normal" damage and has a threat range of 13-20/x4.  Perhaps you would be so kind as to show how an 19-20/x2 weapon goes to that?  Please note the source of anything that isn't in the PHB to make verification easier.

No problem.

Greatsword, weighted 80 gp 1d12 2d8 18-20/x2. This is under martial weapons, under the category of swords. This comes from Arms and Armor v3.5. The specific entry is on page 21.

Laminated Steel...

That's from page 41 of More Ultimate Equipment. So now our weighted greatsword has 17-20.


Kaorti items are all constructed from the resin their palms secrete. ...


Weapons made from kaorti resin ....


You're "no problem" has a few big ones.  For starters Arms & Equipment is a 3.0 book so that may void your weighted greatsword.

Next, your "More Ultimate Equipment" is NOT an "official" sourcebook so that kicks out your Laminated Steel.  Now even if I didn't dismiss it for that I'm not going to let you build an item out of two different materials (your Kaorti and laminated steel) and gain the benefit from both.  I also like how you are using something from a "bonus EPIC Encounter" to enhance something for a 13th-level character.

When two out of three of your sources don't count and the third one comes from an epic source I'll say your weapon also gets an epic fail.  Perhaps you want you use the Katana which a fanboy put up on the DnD wiki instead because treating it as a masterwork bastard sword as mentioned in the DMG just isn't good enough for the greatest swrod ever made by man.
Back on topic, if you want a two weapons fighting duskblade, you can go Ranger 2, duskblade 13, anything full BAB 5 or the classic swordsage 2/bloodclaw master2 X+1 (Originaly, it was a valenar elf who will become revenant blade 5 in the near futur, but since you're human...).
Now, don't purchase anything on that gear list other than Belt of Battle. Most of it is awful. And I mean really awful.



Seriously?  o.O  The Shadow Cloak is one of the few places you can get teleportation as an immediate action outside of a level of Conjurer.  (Come to think of it, I can't think up with any others off of the top of my head.)  That's automatic attack dodging three times a day.  Heward's Handy Haversack is like a bag of holding that actively helps you find what you're looking for.  Heck, even Hand of Glory isn't bad if you want to wear more than two rings pre-epic and you don't have the feats available for Extra Rings.  (Not that that's really a benefit until his character actually has some rings.)  These aren't the greatest items in the game, but it's certainly a far cry from awful (particularly those first two).
I got most of the magic items from http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851  [3.5] Lists of Necessary Magic Items

If you have better ideas of a item list please post them that is why I asked for help.   Sorry about the bold.
We arn't allowed to get consumables otherwise I would have gotten regualr wands.  How do you attach a third eye freedom to a 3rd eye(clarity)?
Automatic dodging, assuming the opponent doesn't have reach. Or decides to use a five-foot step during a full-attack. Situational at best/



It's a 10' teleportation effect.  If you're fighting toe-to-toe with someone (in an adjacent square), that's already 5' of distance (standard melee reach).  An additional 10' makes for a total 15' between you and the other guy; a 5' step won't be enough to get the other guy back into melee if he's only got standard melee reach.  Opponents with reach don't get a free pass either unless they've elected to go toe-to-toe with you (vice standing back and waiting for you to give them an attack of opportunity).  If this cloak forces enemies with reach to go toe-to-toe with you when you're playing a melee specialist, then that still works to your benefit.

Yes (the Hand of Glory) is really that bad. It became totally useless once the good ol' MIC gave us combining rules.



Hardly - if you're talking strictly about rings less than 24,000 in value and/or situations with infinite gold, then yes, Hand of Glory is absolutely useless to you.  However, if that isn't the case, and any of the rings you want to combine cost more than 24,000 gold, then suddenly it becomes more economic to combine Hands of Glory (12,000 per additional hand) than it is to pay .5x the cost of the ring.  (A moot point for the current build, I suppose, but still not without merit...)



And, on an unrelated note, the relevant page is 233.  ;)
What is ToUF?  Also I understand get rid of the hand of glory I don't have 3 rings.  I got 3rd eye clarity for the stun and daze negations.  I was under the impression that stuned is bad.  Back when I played a caster freedom of movement seemed real improtant, but do melees have to have it?  They actualy have Str and Bab. 
PRACTICAL WARNING: Check with your DM on what he approves of when it comes to magic items. It's all right to say that you can combine any sorts of items in theory, but if your build is dependent on a specific overlapping equipment combination, you really don't want your DM to catch you with your pants down and say "naw, not allowing that".
Automatic dodging, assuming the opponent doesn't have reach. Or decides to use a five-foot step during a full-attack. Situational at best/

It's a 10' teleportation effect.  If you're fighting toe-to-toe with someone (in an adjacent square), that's already 5' of distance (standard melee reach).  An additional 10' makes for a total 15' between you and the other guy; a 5' step won't be enough to get the other guy back into melee if he's only got standard melee reach.  Opponents with reach don't get a free pass either unless they've elected to go toe-to-toe with you (vice standing back and waiting for you to give them an attack of opportunity).  If this cloak forces enemies with reach to go toe-to-toe with you when you're playing a melee specialist, then that still works to your benefit.

Unless he's built as a charger.

As for what CJ said about TWF, he's (mostly) right.  There are other acceptable circumstances for TWF, like Tiger Claw focus (usually with kukris anyway), Sun Sword shenanigans, various precision damage effects, etc.  In this particular case, you're going to want a 2H weapon (reach is optional, but recommended) and Power Attack.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Unless he's built as a charger.



Please elaborate, as I'm a bit lost on how this applies.  The advantage of the cloak is having the ability to get out of melee reach when it's to your advantage to do so.  If you're fighting a charger, then teleporting 10' away is about as wise as leaving melee with a wizard who isn't set up for it (but you're under no obligation to teleport, so the cloak doesn't really hurt you there).  If you're a charger yourself, 10' of teleportation could be useful for setting up a charge on the next round (so the cloak doesn't hurt you there either).

 Or, of course, you're fighting a caster. Caster goes LOLCELERITYSOLIDFOG. And then you pretty much die.



The cloak's not there for casters - that's like saying wizards should never bother to cast mind blank because it doesn't help them any when a CoDzilla goes into melee with them.  I fail to see how the cloak leaves him worse off in that scenario.

This would be true, except for the slight problem that I am seriously having trouble thinking of a ring that's more than 24000 GP that's actually worth that cost.



Spellbattle rings, rings of protection +4 and higher, rings of freedom of movement, rings of evasion.  (I play with persistent spell a lot, deal with disjunctions a lot, and even the once-per-day spellbattle ring I find to be useful, esp. on surprise rounds.)  I suppose you could make the claim that these things are overpriced and/or unnecessary - but, even if you were to make the case they aren't "worth the cost", that still wouldn't be the same thing as "totally useless", would it?

@OP: I'm partial to winged masks on the face slot, myself (either that or phantom steeds), but your flying needs might not be as big as the need for immunities.
Wow. Look, Zaramon, you need to understant something. A greatsword is a two-handed weapon. Period. Those are the rules. Now, circumstances can occur that allow you to wield a two-handed weapon one-handed. That does not change that a two-handed weapon is two-handed. Now, if this doesn't convince you, I'm going to let someone else have the honors. Too tired and lazy. But, really, you're missing something much more simple and much, much more important:

Fighting with oversized weapons sucks. Hard. Like, so far beyond awful, I lack the vocabulary to effectively describe it without comparing it negatively to Truenamer or Weapon Specialization.

Oh, and third party stuff ain't cool. And pumping out four digit damage at level 11+ is so easy, making 100-ish isn't something to be impressed about.



If you size a greatsword down one category, it can be wielded one-handed, because a greatsword shrunk down one size category is a medium weapon. I already quoted the rules once and I'm reading the size rules right now in the PHB. What's wrong with third party stuff?

You're wrong but I can already sense a  who isn't going to listen to a thing he's told.  I think you should read up on what weapon size means and how it works.  Pay close attention to this section:



You're disagreeing with a quoted section of the feat. That wasn't my own words, I was quoting straight from Complete Warrior. Also, I don't believe anything anyone tells me unless it can be backed up with evidence. I've proven my point. I don't really care what you think I am, but your raging isn't going to do a damn thing other than make you look like a child who can't handle disagreement, especially when proof is presented to him about how he is wrong. Monkey Grip states flat-out, "a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon."

Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it.



This is known to me.


A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.


Yep.


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.


Thanks for proving my own point for me. Look at that. Right at that bolded part. Now compare: "a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon."


If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.


Yes, the large longsword would still be two-handed, and therefore wieldable. If the size category moves it up beyond two-handed, it can't be wielded by medium size creatures, the same is true for light weapons. It's not saying that if the designation changes at all, it can't be wielded, which is what you seem to be implying.


All Monkey Grip does is allow you to ignore that second paragraph when wielding a weapon a size larger.


Monkey Grip doesn't change the effort required, so,

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.



It does not allow for the avoidance of penalties that occur when wielding an improperly sized weapon.

Wrong and wrong.  A greatsword and large longsword share many of the same stats but the large longsword only costs 30 gp while a greatsword costs 50 gp.



The different size table increases the price accordingly as well. 

A halfling (small) longsword?  It is a SLASHING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 15gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  A shortsword?  Well it's a PIERCING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 10gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  Oh yeh, those two items MUST BE THE SAME WEAPON despite doing different damage types and having different costs.



It's just a printing error. Daggers always do both slashing and piercing. The cost isn't so much a printing error as it is an actual math mistake. It's supposed to equal out based on size. Even so, it could still be done with a large longsword, which counts as a one-handed weapon for someone who has the monkey grip feat.

You're "no problem" has a few big ones.  For starters Arms & Equipment is a 3.0 book so that may void your weighted greatsword.



It has "v3.5" right on one of the first pages, in big bold letters.


Next, your "More Ultimate Equipment" is NOT an "official" sourcebook so that kicks out your Laminated Steel.  Now even if I didn't dismiss it for that I'm not going to let you build an item out of two different materials (your Kaorti and laminated steel) and gain the benefit from both.


It's not the material in and of itself, but the lamination process. Just laminate the solidified resin. Hell you could do that with any special material. Throw it out and it's still 15-20 though. You can also find it in Mercenaries, by Alderac Entertainment. Was there some rule against not using certain sourcebooks in the OP? 


I also like how you are using something from a "bonus EPIC Encounter" to enhance something for a 13th-level character.

When two out of three of your sources don't count and the third one comes from an epic source I'll say your weapon also gets an epic fail.


What? Epic Encounter? Kaorti are CR 1, with a +2 level adjustment. I'm guessing you mean the kaorti since you already mentioned the other two elements of the set-up.


Perhaps you want you use the Katana which a fanboy put up on the DnD wiki instead because treating it as a masterwork bastard sword as mentioned in the DMG just isn't good enough for the greatest swrod ever made by man.


The greatest sword ever made by man? Eh, that's arguable. There's this myth perpetrated by anime, game nerds, and general rule of cool that the katana is the best blade in the world. For one, there are varying degrees of quality when it comes to any weapon, including Japanese blades. On a slash, the best katanas in the world, still forged by the Masamune family, (One of their blades will run you about $40,000 last I checked btw.) can barely slash through chain mail. The curved blade naturally glides along and deflects off armor.

A straight blade, much more suited to chopping and thrusting, will go right through chain mail. For the record, the real difference between a quality arming sword and a quality katana is virtually non-existent. At least concerning sturdiness and sharpness. If I had to say right off hand what the greatest sword ever forged by the hands of man were, I would have to say either the singing swords of Tubal-Cain, or The Sword of Mars. Go google them sometime. They're pretty impressive.
Oh great, another tangent to go on.
Wow. Look, Zaramon, you need to understant something. A greatsword is a two-handed weapon. Period. Those are the rules. Now, circumstances can occur that allow you to wield a two-handed weapon one-handed. That does not change that a two-handed weapon is two-handed. ...

Oh, and third party stuff ain't cool. And pumping out four digit damage at level 11+ is so easy, making 100-ish isn't something to be impressed about.

If you size a greatsword down one category, it can be wielded one-handed, because a greatsword shrunk down one size category is a medium weapon. I already quoted the rules once and I'm reading the size rules right now in the PHB. What's wrong with third party stuff?


If you "down size" a greatsword it can be wielded by a creature of the previous size with one hand.  It is still "two-handed" weapon but you just happen to be able to wield it with one hand although you take some sizable penalties for doing so.  The "small greatsword" is a 50gp weapon that deals 1d10 (19-20/x2) slashing damage that weighs 4lbs.  If you are a medium sized character you take a -2 penalty when wielding it although you can wield it using only one hand.

I don't know what PHB you are reading but I'm under the impression that this thread was looking for answers under the 3.5 rules.  In 3.5 weapons are "sized" by their normal wielder and how hard it is for them to wield.  A greatsword is ALWAYS a "two-handed weapon" when wielded by the appropriate sized user but a larger user can use it differently with a penalty applied.  You should know that everything I've posted about weapon size has come straight from the 3.5 SRD and you should have noticed that the full stats do NOT match up despite your claims.

What's wrong with third party stuff?  Plenty.  Oh there is also plenty that is fine but you need to remember that ANYONE can put out third party stuff.  Just because you can publish it and some people think "it's fine" that does NOT mean it actually works well within the official pureview of the game.  Did you look at that Katana entry I linked to?  There's a prime example of what a "third party" source can provide which says " you" to anything that WotC may have done to try and maintain game balance.  

Those third party sources you used are really saying " off" to a generally unwritten rule in 3.5 that says weapons with a big critical mutliplier only threaten on a 20 and weapons with a big threat range only deal x2 when they do crit; now threat range can improve but in 3.5 they no longer stack but I believe there is only one official, but relatively obscure and difficult to obtain, to increase a weapon's mutltiplier.  If you look at 19-20/x2 and a x3 crit range you'll see that both deal the same damage assuming that critials are all confirmed and the same is true for an 18-20/x2 and x4 crit range although these weapons start with a lower base damage to make up for more crit potential; if you double the critical range on any of these you do not change the relationship between them.  Normally the 19-20 and x3 get two extra damage results (a normal 20/x2 critical is just one extra damage result) while the 18-20 and x4 get three and if you double the threat range you just double those numbers; a 19-20/x3 weapon gets FOUR extra damage results which means such a weapon should have a MUCH lower base damage but when you can crit that often for that much people will often use them just for any multipliable damage bonuses they may have.
I'll take that as a concession.
A large longsword has similar stats to a greatsword, but is definitely not the same thing.

It will not have the same porportions. A Greatsword is usually a foot of hilt and four to five feet of blade. A longsword is usually 8 inches of hilt and under thirty inches of blade.

A large longsword will be thicker and wider then a Greatsword, probably the same length or up to a foot longer, with a longer hilt that is also TWICE AS THICK as a Greatsword's, made to accomodate the larger hands of a size L creature. Wielding it would be like waving around a blade using the thick end of a baseball bat for a hilt, it would be much wider and heavier then you're used to, and the weight balanced further toward the point then a Greatsword, which often had a very large pommel to bring the weight down closer to the hilt. Longswords are designed to shift the weight towards the end more. Wielding this thing, you're going to feel like you're sweeping a broom with a hilt as wide as a doorknob, or something.

A small longsword has the opposite problem. It's going to be more slender and thinner then a Medium shortsword. It's going to be weighted to slash, not to stab. The hilt is going to be sized for size S hands, meaning about the thickness of a golf club shaft (not the handle). You're going to feel like you're wielding a hilt the size of a pencil or something, and probably afraid you're going to bend or break the thing you're using. 

==Aelryinth       
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
And no, Kaorti Resin will not stack with lamination (it's not steel or even metal, and lamination specifically mentions that), and lamination probably isn't going to get past anyone or anything, either. The 'folding' techniques of blades are assumed to be part of 'masterwork' for slashing weapons, and have been in use by smiths for centuries, starting with damascene steel from out of India and spreading from there.

There's a reason 3pp stuff is often disallowed at tables. You're showcasing it.

He'd be better off just using an alchemically Heavy weapon for a virtual size increase (FR magic book) and sticking with that if he's going to spend an EWP.

==Aelryinth     
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
I guess I left the reply window sitting open too long and you added to your post.  I'll also apologize now for the Wall of Text but this what happens when defending post that have also been picked apart line by line.
You're wrong but I can already sense a who isn't going to listen to a thing he's told.  I think you should read up on what weapon size means and how it works.  Pay close attention to this section:

You're disagreeing with a quoted section of the feat. That wasn't my own words, I was quoting straight from Complete Warrior. Also, I don't believe anything anyone tells me unless it can be backed up with evidence. I've proven my point. I don't really care what you think I am, but your raging isn't going to do a damn thing other than make you look like a child who can't handle disagreement, especially when proof is presented to him about how he is wrong. Monkey Grip states flat-out, "a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon."

I guess the "censored" part left too much to the imagination but I'm sensing someone who can't see where they are wrong and will refuse to admit it.  For a newbie to the board you're reminding me of another person who recently became active on the board and is a lightning rod for controversy.

What I'm having trouble with is when you say that a large longsword equals a greatsword and that because you can wield a large longsword with one hand due to the Monkey Grip feat that you can do the same with a greatsword.  The MG feat does NOT allow that.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

Thanks for proving my own point for me. Look at that. Right at that bolded part. Now compare: "a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon."

I should point out the very first line of the Monkey Grip feat to you:

"You can use melee weaons one size category larger then you are..., but the amount of effort tit take you ...does not change."
This would mean that to a medium character with the Monkey Grip feat a large longsword is ONLY a one-handed weapon and can NOT be a considered a two-handed weapon like a greatsword any more then a normal longsword can be considered a two-handed weapon.

Wrong and wrong.  A greatsword and large longsword share many of the same stats but the large longsword only costs 30 gp while a greatsword costs 50 gp.

The different size table increases the price accordingly as well.

You should look at those numbers again.  A longsword cost 15 gp so a large longsword costs twice that or the 30 gp I state; the medium greatsword still cost 50 gp.  I don't see what your point here was but mine is still clear:  a large longsword is NOT a greatsword.
A halfling (small) longsword?  It is a SLASHING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 15gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  A shortsword?  Well it's a PIERCING weapon that deals 1d6 damage, cost 10gp, and weighs 2 lbs.  Oh yeh, those two items MUST BE THE SAME WEAPON despite doing different damage types and having different costs.

It's just a printing error. Daggers always do both slashing and piercing. The cost isn't so much a printing error as it is an actual math mistake. It's supposed to equal out based on size. Even so, it could still be done with a large longsword, which counts as a one-handed weapon for someone who has the monkey grip feat.

A printing error you say....  Then are those the things I pulled out of the SRD?  Now Daggers may do slashing or piercing as needed by the user but that option does NOT exist for shortswords or longswords; some DMs may houserule that possibility but if they do it greatly increases the power of those weapons while also sticking it to some of the history behing the weapons.  You brough up the halfling and a halfling with monkey grip should be using human sized weapons just like a MG human would use large weapons.
You're "no problem" has a few big ones.  For starters Arms & Equipment is a 3.0 book so that may void your weighted greatsword.

It has "v3.5" right on one of the first pages, in big bold letters.

Then I guess my google-foo is horrible because everything I found about WotC's Arms & Equipment book says its a 3.0 product.  Of course they may be a 3rd-party version that says its v3.5 but that runs into the issues with third party material.
Next, your "More Ultimate Equipment" is NOT an "official" sourcebook so that kicks out your Laminated Steel.  Now even if I didn't dismiss it for that I'm not going to let you build an item out of two different materials (your Kaorti and laminated steel) and gain the benefit from both.

It's not the material in and of itself, but the lamination process. Just laminate the solidified resin. Hell you could do that with any special material. Throw it out and it's still 15-20 though. You can also find it in Mercenaries, by Alderac Entertainment. Was there some rule against not using certain sourcebooks in the OP?

Your Laminated Steel does say it is "steel" which means you can't/shouldn't use with with other materials.  Maybe you want to tell me I could use that process to combine a weapon to use your Kaorti resin, adamantine, silver, and cold iron all in one weapon.
I also like how you are using something from a "bonus EPIC Encounter" to enhance something for a 13th-level character.

What? Epic Encounter? Kaorti are CR 1, with a +2 level adjustment. I'm guessing you mean the kaorti since you already mentioned the other two elements of the set-up.

I'm just reading the page you linked to which mentions "Epic Encounters" and slapping x4 critical damage on a high threat range weapon that normally does x2 damage certainly pushes things up a lot.
Perhaps you want you use the Katana which a fanboy put up on the DnD wiki instead because treating it as a masterwork bastard sword as mentioned in the DMG just isn't good enough for the greatest sword ever made by man.

The greatest sword ever made by man? Eh, that's arguable. ...

I guess you missed the sarcasm behind that suggestion.  If you want to go and say that using third party material is find and dandy then maybe you should just you that third party sword as your base.
I'll take that as a concession.

What are you taking as a concession and as a concession to what?
I guess the "censored" part left too much to the imagination but I'm sensing someone who can't see where they are wrong and will refuse to admit it.

 

Aw, I bet you say that to everyone that calls you out on disagreeing with RAW.

For a newbie to the board you're reminding me of another person who recently became active on the board and is a lightning rod for controversy.



Oh really. Who is it?

What I'm having trouble with is when you say that a large longsword equals a greatsword and that because you can wield a large longsword with one hand due to the Monkey Grip feat that you can do the same with a greatsword.

 

It's all about size category. A halfling longsword still counts as a light weapon for a medium sized character. Just like a shortsword. Granted, you'd still suffer the penalty to the attack roles, but you could totally do it. And combo it with that fun little exotic weapon stunt.

"You can use melee weaons one size category larger then you are..., but the amount of effort tit take you ...does notchange."

Like I said, you'd still take the penalties to the attack role.


This would mean that to a medium character with the Monkey Grip feat a large longsword is ONLY a one-handed weapon and can NOT be a considered a two-handed weapon like a greatsword any more then a normal longsword can be considered a two-handed weapon
.


Yeah. That's the idea. The whole reason that's done is to benefit from the exotic weapon stunt for double strength instead of strength and a half from wielding a one-handed weapon two-handed while using a weighted greatsword. The synergy with frenzied berserker and momentum swing is sweet. Granted, this is a duskblade, but I'm assuming this duskblade is all about damage, so, that's what I'm going with. Unless you want to dual-wield, this is the best way to get damage from the physical aspect of the character.


You should look at those numbers again.  A longsword cost 15 gp so a large longsword costs twice that or the 30 gp I state; the medium greatsword still cost 50 gp.  I don't see what your point here was but mine is still clear:  a large longsword is NOT a greatsword.


Where's Crazy_Monkey when we need him? It's a math error. It's supposed to all come out the same.


Then I guess my google-foo is horrible because everything I found about WotC's Arms & Equipment book says its a 3.0 product.  Of course they may be a 3rd-party version that says its v3.5 but that runs into the issues with third party material.


"Arms and Armor v 3.5." Not "Arms and Equipment Guide". They are two separate books, and I own both of them.


Your Laminated Steel does say it is "steel" which means you can't/shouldn't use with with other materials.  Maybe you want to tell me I could use that process to combine a weapon to use your Kaorti resin, adamantine, silver, and cold iron all in one weapon.


Aegis-Fang is a mithral/adamantine weapon. It isn't like material combination has never been done before in the history of D&D.


I'm just reading the page you linked to which mentions "Epic Encounters" and slapping x4 critical damage on a high threat range weapon that normally does x2 damage certainly pushes things up a lot.


When they said "epic" encounters, I don't think they meant in the technical mechanical sense of 20+, I think they meant, "awesome." I'm trusting they realize kaorti are functionally common as dirt in a lot of ways.


I guess you missed the sarcasm behind that suggestion.

 

I guess I did.


If you want to go and say that using third party material is find and dandy then maybe you should just you that third party sword as your base.


I've been DMing and playing for 12 years, (Much more DMing than playing.) and I've never really had a problem with using third-party material. The only thing I've had problems with have been DIMs, and those appear in both WotC material and in third party content. Wildlander, Rhino's Rush, Weighted Greatswords, Oathbow, DIMs are what create the crazy gib potential at higher levels.


What are you taking as a concession and as a concession to what?


I'm taking your zany rant about design intent in regards to weapons as a concession of your disagreement to my set-up. I mean, if I really wanted to, I could do the same exact thing with a basic medium-sized scimitar straight from the phb, eliminating the need for monkey grip. Even losing the laminated steel, a kaorti resin scimitar after keen/imp. crit. is 15-20 x4, and a one-handed exotic weapon capable of being wielded two-handed, therefore benefitting from the ews for double strength, and that's all WotC material, no third party stuff, at all.

Again, throw in FB with supreme power attack, rage/frenzy, and combat brute/momentum swing, and the build is still totally functional, and the best damage any pure physical melee character will ever see in 3.5, short of paying for miracle cheese. If his duskblade is going for big damage, even if Duskblade 13 works out to be more than duskblade 12/EWM 1, a kaorti resin high threat range weapon is still an optimal and official D&D set-up. Oh no, damage dice becomes 1d6 instead of 2d8. Such a gigantic balance impact. Now all you need is the impaling quality on the weapon and deathstrike bracers (Both offical D&D/WotC material.) and everything will be afraid.
HEY! Not cool, man. When I bring up RAW, I make sure I'm always right. Not like this totally-unsupported absurdity from Z.



I'm going to take this for the in-fun jape that I sincerely believe it is.

Especially since "Arms and Armor 3.5" is a third party book, and a particularly bad one at that. Seriously, bro. Learn the difference.



Scary when you realize the only real difference between a third party book and an offical WotC product is a mere 8 points of damage.
I guess the "censored" part left too much to the imagination but I'm sensing someone who can't see where they are wrong and will refuse to admit it.  For a newbie to the board you're reminding me of another person who recently became active on the board and is a lightning rod for controversy.

HEY! Not cool, man. When I bring up RAW, I make sure I'm always right. Not like this totally-unsupported absurdity from Z.

You should get around more, CJ.  If StevenO means who I think he means, it's the same guy I was referring to in my "popcorn" post a couple days ago... that ff thought was you.  
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Sign In to post comments