Bard|Sorcerer at-wills

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Hi ive started work on a Bard|Sorcerer hybrid im the 6th member of the group.we are 6th level.

we have:
battlemind
rogue(brutal)
avenger
cleric(str)
wizard(blaster)
and me

i am just wondering what are the best 3 at-wills to take. im human with the hybrid talent (wild mage option).i picked wild mage mostly cause the powers are fun and it fits my background better than storm.

currently im planing on takeing. chaos bolt , blazing starfall and misdirected mark.

thanks for any help you guys on charOP can provide.
You might first want to ask yourself what you want to gain by going a bard I sorc hybrid; bard spells do not gain the damage bonus from your sorceror half and the warlord (encounter) immediate powers in heroic tier combined with combat leader would probably make that a better choice for a hybrid.

However, as a half bard and without a leader that can hand out ranged basic attacks, what you probably want is a melee basic attack so enemies cannot walk by you. Something like ensorcelated blade + chaos bolt or blazing starfall + any bard at will will work. If you are willing to give hybrid sorc I warlord a try, go for direct the strike/acid orb/blazing starfall and search for the build named 'Blitz' in on these boards to find a very good build for that.

 
This is a remarkably bad idea on a number of levels. You are playing half a class that really has two primary stats and you don't get two stat bumps, you only get some (not all) of the Sorc features back with Hybrid Talent (Sorcs have by far one of the worst HT deals). You'll be down on AC...   really not seeing any upside to this build in general, much less with that party composition. I guess you're covering Cha skills? Though the Battlemind could be Con/Cha, so maybe not even that.
Perhaps if you Skald Training, grab one of the Skald at-wills (like +hit or temps or something) Dragonfrost/Energy Strobe/Acid Orb and Lightining Cuts etc.  Ensorcelled dagger might not qualify for the Skald effects (as its in place of a MBA, not as a MBA).  

Would Dragonfrost/Acid Orb with a dagger as the Implement qualify for Lesser Ringing/Dimensional Step/Flash of Distraction Weapon do you guys think?  
Ours is a world where people don't know what they want, and are willing to go through hell to get it. -Don Marquis
I'd really put the hybrid talent feat on Bard armor - that gets you Hide+Light Shield+3 for a base 17 AC instead of 13(or Chain+Light Shield for the same base AC)

Makes you a lot more survivable. I'd pick Staggering Note(very useful with Brutal Rogue), Blazing Starfall, and either Ensorcelled Blade or one of the RBA options. 
Really I think the idea here is to not take the 3rd At-will and take Heroic Effort.  Also, go full bard and make yourself a better enabler.
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Really I think the idea here is to not take the 3rd At-will and take Heroic Effort.  Also, go full bard and make yourself a better enabler.



aka, Protip: don't suck.
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well what I thought I was gaining as a half-sorcerer is.
A.an encounter heal
B.More Skills
C.Some of the more fun
disables / domination effects
D.flavor

but the general consensus is ill suck it seems and I originally thought the party needed more ranged than it does a second leader. The cleric is very good at keeping everyone up for a while and figured it would help out a bit.
+1 on Heroic Effort. As Alcestis pointed out, Human is a terrible choice for a number of reasons though.

Sorc|Bard really isn't as bad off as people are saying if you make other choices (ie. Race and Hybrid Talent) properly, so long as you're willing to suffer for a couple levels where you're better off enabling someone else with Staggering Note and Blunder. You do get +secondary (which should be read as "Second Primary" re Alcestis' point) to AC and Damage with Sorc Spells. You do get Bard enabling and buffing and Sorc's devastating encounter powers. Hell, you can even do a "Rebreather with Heals" and dominate the Wizard if you switch to Dragonborn.

Anyway, as a Human, this is what I came up with for level 16
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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 16
Human, Sorcerer|Bard, Demonskin Adept
Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer: Wild Soul
Sorcerous Power: Sorcerous Power Dexterity
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Choose Bluff or Intimidate for your Level 10 Yakuza Feature: Intimidate (Level 10 Yakuza Feature)
Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
Background: Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 9, Con 14, Dex 20, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 22.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 13, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16.


AC: 28 Fort: 24 Reflex: 31 Will: 32
HP: 109 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 27

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +21, Diplomacy +19, Endurance +15, Perception +18, Acrobatics +18, Thievery +18

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, Bluff +15, Dungeoneering +10, Heal +10, History +9, Insight +10, Nature +10, Religion +9, Stealth +14, Streetwise +17, Athletics +8

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: War Wizard's Expertise
Level 2: Mark of Storm
Level 4: Superior Implement Training (Lancing dagger)
Level 6: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Deadly Draw
Level 11: Lightning Soul
Level 12: Nimble Blade
Level 14: Monastic Disciple
Level 16: Superior Reflexes

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Acid Orb
Hybrid at-will 1: Staggering Note
Hybrid at-will 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Monastic Disciple: Desert Wind Flurry of Blows
Hybrid encounter 1: Blunder
Hybrid daily 1: Shocking Magnetism
Hybrid utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle
Hybrid encounter 3: Flame Spiral
Hybrid daily 5: Song of Discord
Hybrid utility 6: Revitalizing Incantation
Hybrid encounter 7: Lightning Cuts
Hybrid daily 9: Prime the Fire
Hybrid utility 10: Mantle of Unity
Hybrid encounter 13: Couplet of Deceptive Weakness (replaces Blunder)
Hybrid daily 15: Lightning Daggers (replaces Shocking Magnetism)
Hybrid utility 16: Haste

ITEMS
Antipathy Gloves (heroic tier), Helm of Heroes (heroic tier), Robe of Eyes Feyweave Armor +4, Elemental Ward Cloak +3, Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Rushing Cleats (heroic tier), Thunderbolt Lancing dagger +3, Quicksilver Blade Lancing dagger +3, Counterstrike Guards (paragon tier), Cincture of the Githzerai (heroic tier), Backlash Tattoo (heroic tier), Eberron Shard of Lightning (paragon tier), Rain of Hammers Ki Focus +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

1st Round you should go relatively first and use Mantle of Unity move to within 3 of 3 enemies and Flame Spiral, sliding them adjacent to you thanks to Mark of Storm making it an effective tripple-tap (hit-slide adjacent-start turn) for 1d10+2d6+72 to all 3 (2 take 8 extra from flurry) which should bloody them, triggering Yakuza's Ruthless Demonstration (possibly removing 1 from the game with Intimidate and everyone has -2 to hit you), they can't shift past you (easily) thanks to Antipathy Gloves, so either they shift back and find another way around, provoke (which should kill them outright, since you attack at +31vs AC dealing 1d6+1d4+53), or attack you (high defenses thanks to Mantle of Unity) triggering either Dragonflame Mantle or Counterstrike Guards. On an AP, you'd use Demonsoul Bolts (provokes but who cares) to bring a 3rd target (if possible) into your Flame Spiral for 5 damage rolls (3d8+2d6+128) not quite enough to kill it, but it's within spitting distance.

The main reason this nova doesn't kill the targets has nothing to do with class, and a lot more to do with race, and rarity options as well as my overall item choice. Being a Cha/Dex race adds +3 damage per target on Flame Spiral (+5 of the bolts), being higher level and thus access to +4 Enh for both OH and MH adds 6(10), having a Rare Ring of the Dragonborn Emperor adds 9(6), and then the best 3 items of the Gifts for the Queen set can add another 12(20).

I really like the overall versatility (Staggering Note and Blunder helps when out of position and the later is still a decent double-tap, and of course Song of Discord because provoking at least 3 decent MBAs (you, rogue, avenger) and putting them back in your Flame Spiral for yet another damage roll is, frankly, death for the victim), as well as the numerous other options (Echoing Weapon, Rhyme of the Bloodseeking Blade, Thunder Leap, Chains of Fire, the Walk among the Fey + Unlucky Teleport trick) that I really don't have the time or space to detail.

I actually changed my mind about Human's Bonus At-Will, given Thunderbolt and your ideal (but rare) offhand Weapon of Speed both grant RBAs and both Rain of Hammers Ki Focus and Backlash Tattoo can also be RBAs, having that available to you is worth quite a bit, and it's not like your accuracy really suffers with constant CA (Deadly Draw) giving +3 (Nimble Blade) hitting on a 6 with Implement Attacks, 5 with MBA (2 with an OA) AP gives you +3 on top of that and if 1s bother you, you can always pick up the level 2 Utility from Yakuza: Life's Losing Hand.

As a note, Str Clerics make terrible leaders.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.

 Hell, you can even do a "Rebreather with Heals" and dominate the Wizard if you switch to Dragonborn.

As a note, Str Clerics make terrible leaders.



2 things that I would say to the OP about this.

1) Don't take a Rebreather into this group, they will most likely hate you.  Even a meh Rebreather can cause issues at the table.  I was one of the ones who fought so hard for the build and I still don't use it in most games simply because it is very unbalancing at table.

2) I think the OP is of the opinion (from his comment about keeping people up) that leaders are healers.  In the CharOp boards that just simply isn't true.  Leaders give out bonuses to the party and enable players to hit more often, hit harder, get into position better and focus fire more effeciently.  Those are the qualities of a good leader from our perspective.  From that perspective the Str Cleric is pretty bad at it, and you can make a great one with a bard (or, like Zath said you can make a strong Bard|Sorc but you probably shouldn't be human).  From the perspective of leaders as healers, yeah a cleric of any stripe can do a fair job of it.  But that is one of the biggest reasons we don't even consider it as an option (as all leaders kind of take it for granted that they are going to keep the party alive).

Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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yeah I see your point about leaders not being excluselively healers. It's just our gm likes throwing quite harsh encounters at us and we take quite a beating. if somebody that isn't a defender takes a blow its often 1/3 of there hp. (Does makes the encounters a blast though) hence why I though the extra bit of healing / being able to grant saves and attack bonuses along with the cleric who grants mostly THP and AC would help.

The sorcerer part is mostly cause although not optimal I like the prismatic powers and to amp up my damage / help clear minions (blazing starfall) or throw out some decent nova with the sorc Dalies/encounters.
yeah I see your point about leaders not being excluselively healers. It's just our gm likes throwing quite harsh encounters at us and we take quite a beating. if somebody that isn't a defender takes a blow its often 1/3 of there hp. (Does makes the encounters a blast though) hence why I though the extra bit of healing / being able to grant saves and attack bonuses along with the cleric who grants mostly THP and AC would help. the sorcerer part is mostly cause although not optimal I like the prismatic powers and to amp up my damage / help clear minions (blazing starfall) or throw out some decent nova with the sorc Dalies/encounters.



That just means he is using the right damage numbers for MM3+ monsters .  Really unless you are getting 2 hit enabling is still probably better than healing most of the time.  The best D is a strong O is pretty true in 4e.

Edit: I know its a bad idea, but I can't help myself.  If you are having minion clearing problems... Breathe! (tiny devil on the shoulder runs away with the idea).

Ok, I'm better now. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
+1 on Heroic Effort. As Alcestis pointed out, Human is a terrible choice for a number of reasons though.



Yes and no. There's nothing really wrong with Human Sorcerer|Bards - you lose a point of damage from attacks and are down a point of AC. But Hybrid Bard Armor fixes the AC issue - you have a 17 when a Sorc with Unarmored Agility is going to have a 16. And with Heroic Effort, you'll usually land a hit per combat that most other Cha races will miss.

Which will make up for the lost damage.

And as a Human, you can take Flame Spiral twice via Adroit Explorer. 
...why would you want to use Hybrid Bard Armor Prof? That's just wasteful.



Hide+Light Shield is +2 AC and +1 Ref better than Unarmored Agility...
Um, don't you lose Str-to-AC in hide?  /me checks: Nope, an light armor.  Nice.

"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima

Um, don't you lose Str-to-AC in hide?  /me checks: Nope, an light armor.  Nice.

Yeah, that is the basis of the Barb|Sorc hybrids with HT: Armored Agility.
I had deleted a post where I had incorrect math for ac with an elven chain shirt (I was equipping an 8th lvl cleric, and forgot the shield bonus applies even without wearing heavy armor). 

But the chain shirt is an uncommon item that will get you within 1 ac of someone wearing scale (like, say, a heavy armor ranger, or a slayer).
People so concerned about AC ... just pack an Orb of Mental Constitution (WLDE) and a Cincture of the Githzerai for the rounds after Mantle of Unity ...
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Further suggestions for defences: 
Hybrid Talent Storm Soul gives you +4 to all defences for one round, plus plenty of other benefits.
Switch theme to Order Adept and gain access to Wizard's utility Shield at level 5. A further round with +4 to AC and Ref.
Play a Drow. Cloud of Darkness gives a further round of +5 to defences in most circumstances. Also, you can start with 18 Dex, for a permanent +1 to AC.
Combine the above with Unarmored Agility and a Shielding Blade as an offhand weapon, and you have excellent defences for three rounds, and OK defences if the DM throws a second wave of monsters at you.
Switching Yakuza to Order Adept under the premise of Shield is moronic. Please at least read the theme before making a suggestion like that.

I was actually trying to keep within the constrains of his concept as a Human Wild Sorcerer|Bard as opposed to the CharOp standard of suggesting a build we created, because frankly it at least can be optimized, it's not like he was saying Shade Cosmic Sorc|Artificer.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Switching Yakuza to Order Adept under the premise of Shield is moronic. Please at least read the theme before making a suggestion like that.

I was actually trying to keep within the constrains of his concept as a Human Wild Sorcerer|Bard as opposed to the CharOp standard of suggesting a build we created, because frankly it at least can be optimized, it's not like he was saying Shade Cosmic Sorc|Artificer.

I have found Order Adept to be decent, although Yakuza is of course very good, and even better for a drow. The starting power,  Argent Rain gives you a nice opening Area Burst power.  This frees you to take Esorcelled Blade and Staggering Note as at wills, and Blunder as the encounter power at level 1, while maintaining versatility. Note that I am thinking here of a build that starts at early Heroic. If you start at, say, Paragon, things will be different, although the +2 to Will at level 10 is always pretty nice.
well if bard|sorc is not too bad although can be good(ty zathris) and everyone else for the pointers. would a feylock|bard be any better (would probably change to eladrin) would fit the theame. Not ideal but I could use the at will power refluff to get what I originally wanted.
I think that Bard|Sorcerer can be excellent, especially at level 6. This is what I am currently playing (note that I am at level 4).


Talrys, level 4
Drow, Bard/Sorcerer
Hybrid Bard Option: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Sorcerous Power Option: Sorcerous Power Dexterity
Hybrid Talent Option: Soul of the Sorcerer
Soul of the Sorcerer Option: Storm Soul
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Order Adept


FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 9, DEX 19, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 19


AC: 20 Fort: 13 Ref: 17 Will: 17
HP: 46 Surges: 5 Surge Value: 11


POWERS
Order Adept Attack: Argent Rain
Drow Racial Power: Cloud of Darkness
Bard Feature: Majestic Word
Bard Attack 1: Staggering Note
Sorcerer Attack 1: Ensorcelled Blade
Bard Attack 1: Blunder
Sorcerer Attack 1: Grounding Rebuke
Sorcerer Utility 2: Shield of Flames
Sorcerer Attack 3: Flame Spiral


FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Mark of Storm


ITEMS
Shielding Blade Long sword +1 x1
Lightning Dagger +1 x1
Shimmering Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1 x1
Eberron Shard of Lightning (heroic tier)
Amulet of Resolution +1 x1

To level it up to six, I would suggest:
5 Word of Discord. Retrain Level 2 utility to Shield (Wizard Level 2 utility that is accessed through the theme. Note, CB does not allow you to do this, although it is clearly legal.)

6 Revitalizing Incantation. Bard of All Trades.

Items according to taste, but keep Lightining Dagger and Shimmering Armor.

BENEFITS:
Three full rounds of very high defences (Storm Soul, Shield, Cloud of Darkness), OK defences thereafter. This is critical, given that you need to close in to use Flame Spiral, and any DM is likely to focus fire on you. Further, you have very few surges (Ring of Tenacious Will will eventually fix this), so you need to try to avoid being hit.

Excellent AP Encounter Nova: Flame Spiral AP Blunder followed by MBA with Ensorcelled Blade.

Good skills.

Versatility: Good melee, range, close and area burst powers

Good ability to provide healing with Majestic Word and Revitalizing Incantation

Good enabling with Staggering Note and Blunder

Switching Yakuza to Order Adept under the premise of Shield is moronic. Please at least read the theme before making a suggestion like that.

I was actually trying to keep within the constrains of his concept as a Human Wild Sorcerer|Bard as opposed to the CharOp standard of suggesting a build we created, because frankly it at least can be optimized, it's not like he was saying Shade Cosmic Sorc|Artificer.

I have found Order Adept to be decent, although Yakuza is of course very good, and even better for a drow. The starting power,  Argent Rain gives you a nice opening Area Burst power.  This frees you to take Esorcelled Blade and Staggering Note as at wills, and Blunder as the encounter power at level 1, while maintaining versatility. Note that I am thinking here of a build that starts at early Heroic. If you start at, say, Paragon, things will be different, although the +2 to Will at level 10 is always pretty nice.


It's only +1, and it's a power bonus (as are the skill bonuses, though it's not like you're going to get power bonuses to skills from many other things), it's all in the errata, and neither CB nor the Compendium are a rules source.

You're horribly overrating a power that's really no better than Blazing Starfall (ok, it leaves a damage zone ... an unfriendly damage zone), we've already covered that he's starting at level 6, not level 1. Standard Action theme powers lose their value somewhere between level 3 and 5, and the best (worst) part? Argent Rain doesn't get your Sorcerous Soul damage bonus because it's not a Sorcerer Power and you're a Hybrid, so it's actually worse than Blazing Starfall. At this point your ignorance is just derailing this thread for no reason, if you really want CharOp to PEACH your build (by which I do mean "tear apart your bad choices and be as rude as I am right now because you're being far too pretentious about how good an idea you came up with"), feel free to create your own thread.

Seriously, Read Things Before You Post About Them.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
well if bard|sorc is not too bad although can be good(ty zathris) and everyone else for the pointers. would a feylock|bard be any better (would probably change to eladrin) would fit the theame. Not ideal but I could use the at will power refluff to get what I originally wanted.


Lock|Bard is easier, but is going to be much less effective as a Striker. On the other hand you can effectively become the master of teleportation, as well as being rather supreme at moving allies (Warlord|Artificer will be better at that, but whatever, you Teleport!). There's a lot of synergy between items and Warlock Curse. You can MC Swordmage to take Eladrin Swordmage Advance to gain an extra attack whenever you teleport with Fey Step (which can be recharged with your curse). There's Chargers, heavy Controllers, you can even be a pseudo Defender. It's very easy to get lost in the multitude of options for Warlocks.

The tricky thing with hybrid Warlocks is that getting the boon from your first pact requires both giving up one of the Basic Attacks in exchange for the at-will from your Pact (not that invis vs 1 target is bad, just that Eldritch Strike is so gobstoppingly good). However in Paragon, you can take Twofold Pact feat which gives you the at-will and boon from the pact you choose then. Typically, you pick one with great riders and feat support first, and then you pick the one you want the boon/at-will from in Paragon. Starting out Fey Pact (but with Eldritch Strike and no boon) and then Twofolding into Star Pact (which kinda works with whole wyld/chaos thing I'm sensing) gets you access to the best Warlock Paragon Path: Student of Caiphon which is basically the ideal mix of Damage+Leadership that you'd want.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I found my Sorc/Bard to be fun to play for one game at least. The group later moved to Pathfinder so I couldn't keep going with him beyond level 3. I think the concept is highly dependent on how optimized the rest of the group is and the play style of the DM.

I can say in practice I got a lot of mileage out of Acid Orb, Blunder and Flame Spiral. Majestic Word was also useful when other players were off on other damage mitigation techniques. Building up static damage for the sorcerous powers was nice as the dice always turn against me on the damage rolls.

Others have already given some good guidance on optimizing this as much as you can, I just wanted to say it can be a fun concept to play.
Switching Yakuza to Order Adept under the premise of Shield is moronic. Please at least read the theme before making a suggestion like that.

I was actually trying to keep within the constrains of his concept as a Human Wild Sorcerer|Bard as opposed to the CharOp standard of suggesting a build we created, because frankly it at least can be optimized, it's not like he was saying Shade Cosmic Sorc|Artificer.

I have found Order Adept to be decent, although Yakuza is of course very good, and even better for a drow. The starting power,  Argent Rain gives you a nice opening Area Burst power.  This frees you to take Esorcelled Blade and Staggering Note as at wills, and Blunder as the encounter power at level 1, while maintaining versatility. Note that I am thinking here of a build that starts at early Heroic. If you start at, say, Paragon, things will be different, although the +2 to Will at level 10 is always pretty nice.


It's only +1, and it's a power bonus (as are the skill bonuses, though it's not like you're going to get power bonuses to skills from many other things), it's all in the errata, and neither CB nor the Compendium are a rules source.

You're horribly overrating a power that's really no better than Blazing Starfall (ok, it leaves a damage zone ... an unfriendly damage zone), we've already covered that he's starting at level 6, not level 1. Standard Action theme powers lose their value somewhere between level 3 and 5, and the best (worst) part? Argent Rain doesn't get your Sorcerous Soul damage bonus because it's not a Sorcerer Power and you're a Hybrid, so it's actually worse than Blazing Starfall. At this point your ignorance is just derailing this thread for no reason, if you really want CharOp to PEACH your build (by which I do mean "tear apart your bad choices and be as rude as I am right now because you're being far too pretentious about how good an idea you came up with"), feel free to create your own thread.

Seriously, Read Things Before You Post About Them.

Your experience obviously differs. Mine is that when facing minions, a high initiative sorcerer is going to be very happy to have an Area Burst power. Blazing Starfall is excellent, if you have three at-wills. If you only have one Sorcerer at-will, it is tricky to find room for it. It may be that my DM uses more minions than yours, but in actual play Argent Rain has been incredibly useful.
At lower level than the OP, in a different party than the OP, and with neither Primordial Adept nor Devil's Pawn nor Infernal Prince nor Ooze Master an option? Sure. Order Adept is not a bad choice.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
At lower level than the OP, in a different party than the OP, and with neither Primordial Adept nor Devil's Pawn nor Infernal Prince nor Ooze Master an option? Sure. Order Adept is not a bad choice.

The main attraction of Order Adept for a SorcererBard is surely the access to Shield at level 5, as it helps with defences if you take Hybrid Talent: Soul of the Sorcerer. Having a functional level 1 Area Burst is just gravy, because it increases versatility. 
Fun things about coming off of the Flu, I can actually think without the aid of drugs! So yeah, silly me, not reading before posting.

You can't take Shield as a Utility Power on a Hybrid until level 10 because of the Hybrid rules (must have at least 1 power from each class as soon as it's possible), and Shield trumps neither Maiden's Waking nor Mantle of Unity (nor Sudden Scales at L6, really). So yeah, main attraction looks like a carnival of rust.

You seem to be stuck on Argent Rain being useful, I really don't think you understand how to play Sorcerers. Or Bards. Or optimized 4e in general.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
thanks again for the info on bard|warlocks zathris. I'm gona go down that route actually fits the theme better. And gives me a synagistic debuffing/buffing power list.

quick question on eladrin implements though. Can I use a pact sword with bard powers as a hybrid or would I need to get a songblade too. I've not seen any clarafication on that .both say that the respective class can use them as implements.
The wordings are different enough to be important. The most complete explanation is to start with how Hybrids and Implement Powers work. You can wield the implements of both classes, and you can use implement powers from either class (and PPs, Themes, Feats, Power Swaps, etc.) through the implements of either class. So you can use Bard Implements (wands) and Warlock Implements (rods and wands) for all of your Implement Powers.

That's the General Rule. Specific beats General, so lets look at the Pact Blade and Songblade as "specific" rules sources.
Pact Blade: "If you are an eladrin, this longsword functions as a warlock implement for you." This clearly adds itself as a subset to "Warlock Implements" which means you can use it for all of your Implement Powers.
Songblade: "Bards can use this weapon as an implement for bard powers and bard paragon path powers." This clearly indicates that it can be used by Bards as for Bard Powers. Since it doesn't make it a "Bard Implement" it doesn't become available for your Warlock (or any non-Bard/Bard PP) Powers.
So Pact Blade would be the way to go between the two of them.

That being said, you could (and likely should, if you want to be casting spells through a sword) is Multiclass into the Swordmage with Blade Initiate, not only giving you training in Arcana (amusingly, as a Hybrid, this is actually useful), and a hefty AC boost for 1 encounter per day, but "you can use swordmage implements" which are all Light Blades and Heavy Blades. Now you have a bit more freedom on what kind of weapon you use, and can put whatever enchant you want on your weapon. Because you're still primarilly an Implement caster (guessing) using a Dagger ends up being the best choice so you can make it a Superior Implement (more accuracy, damage, etc.) The difference between d4 and d8 (longsword) might seem significant, but getting +1 to hit on all your implement powers is far more useful than 2 more damage on your weapon powers.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
yeah your right I'm mostly implement ranged I was wondering mostly due to the eladrin soldier feat. It's a temp fix till I get another feat ie lv8 .then I could get a diffrent weapon. But with it my static damage is the same as the sorc (at current level I know it scales better than mine will but I will hit harder with my bard powers so) thanks for clearing it up.

sorry 4 the noobish questions just wanted to make sure I habe everything correct. 
Fun things about coming off of the Flu, I can actually think without the aid of drugs! So yeah, silly me, not reading before posting.

You can't take Shield as a Utility Power on a Hybrid until level 10 because of the Hybrid rules (must have at least 1 power from each class as soon as it's possible), and Shield trumps neither Maiden's Waking nor Mantle of Unity (nor Sudden Scales at L6, really). So yeah, main attraction looks like a carnival of rust.

You seem to be stuck on Argent Rain being useful, I really don't think you understand how to play Sorcerers. Or Bards. Or optimized 4e in general.

I am afraid I have to disagree with Zathris's interpretation of the interaction between the Order Adept level 5 feature and the Hybrid rules, for a number of reasons. The level 5 feature is a specific rule that beats the more general one. The feature is clear: '2nd-level wizard utility powers can be selected when you gain or retrain utility powers.' This is bolstered by the fact that the Hybrid rules are earlier and only explicitly deal with the interaction between the powers of the two hybrid classes. They were not intended to cover situations such as Order Adept level 5 feature, which did not exist at the time the Hybrid rules were written. Finally, there is nothing in the Hybrid rules to support the contention that utility powers from levels 2 and 6 have forever to be from different classes, as Zathris implies. However, I realise that this may lead to a somewhat tedious and futile debate, so I declare in advance that I will not participate.

If your DM were to follow Zathris's (misguided) view, then Order Adept would indeed be a bad choice and the best course would be to follow MWaO's suggestion and take Hybrid Talent: Bard Armor Proficiency, and a theme such as Yakuza or Sarifal Feywarden (if non-drow fey).
  
Tried Order Adept trick in Character builder. Didn't work at level 6. Don't know what to tell you feadair.

Correction, I dont think it works in the builder at all. 
Tried Order Adept trick in Character builder. Didn't work at level 6. Don't know what to tell you feadair.

Correction, I dont think it works in the builder at all. 

Yep, CB is unfortunately broken as regards Order Adept in general.
Including the wording you're using for Order Adept's level 5 feature. I did mention there was errata and that you needed to read things before you post about them.

I am afraid I have to disagree with Zathris's interpretation of the interaction between the Order Adept level 5 feature and the Hybrid rules, for a number of reasons. The level 5 feature is a specific rule that beats the more general one. The feature is clear: '2nd-level wizard utility powers can be selected when you gain or retrain utility powers.' This is bolstered by the fact that the Hybrid rules are earlier and only explicitly deal with the interaction between the powers of the two hybrid classes. They were not intended to cover situations such as Order Adept level 5 feature, which did not exist at the time the Hybrid rules were written. Finally, there is nothing in the Hybrid rules to support the contention that utility powers from levels 2 and 6 have forever to be from different classes, as Zathris implies. However, I realise that this may lead to a somewhat tedious and futile debate, so I declare in advance that I will not participate.

If your DM were to follow Zathris's (misguided) view, then Order Adept would indeed be a bad choice and the best course would be to follow MWaO's suggestion and take Hybrid Talent: Bard Armor Proficiency, and a theme such as Yakuza or Sarifal Feywarden (if non-drow fey).
  


So now I'm misguided? You've had how many days to check the Dragon Article (I see you are an Insider) and the errata page, and you can't even quote the right wording for the 5th level feature, nor apparently comprehend the Hybrid rules, and I'm the one that's misguided. You're either a troll or an imbecile.

Rules that exist before other rules don't get automatically changed to accomidate the new rules as seems to suit your fancy, that's not a "fact" that's "how things happen in cheaterland". And just because you don't seem to think the rule exists, here it is strait from PHB3 "if you have at least two powers in the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, or utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes." If you cannot comprehend how that means Shield (a power that doesn't come from either of his Hybrid Classes) cannot be taken until level 10, then you are reading on a lower level than Snookie. Finally: You don't even seem to get how "specific beats general" even works to begin with, going back to my earlier point that you flat out have poor system mastery and need to stop giving advice as if you're an expert. You aren't, now stop calling me a liar, that's libel.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Guys, keep it civil.  Not sure how proactive the mods are, but it's not nice inviting their attention to an argument in a thread neither arguer created.

That said, Zathris's last sentence made me flash back to one of the funnier JJJ moments in Spider-Man.
Like I said, I have no intention of participating in the debate. In the end, individual DMs have to decide how the interaction works. Just one important point: 'Misguided' does not mean 'lying', it simply means 'wrong'.
Of course DM's have the ability to decide on any houserules they want to make, that's irrelevant to RAW, and, now that we've covered that you're both unwilling and incapable of proving me wrong, could you please stop "not participating" and just stop posting in this thread? I am actually trying to be useful here.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
zathris your not trying you have been extremely helpfull
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