Dragon's Eye View: Feedback

I'm just back in the office and trying to figure out ways to burn off the calories I packed on over the Thanksgiving break. Perhaps it's due to all the latent L-tryptophan still hanging out in my body, but I've got no idea what to write about this week. Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?

Dragon's Eye View: Feedback

Discuss this article here.   

All around helpful simian

Wow... I didn't think they would admit it. "Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?"

That just made my day. Maybe the developers are beginning to understand...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Wow... I didn't think they would admit it. "Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?"

That just made my day. Maybe the developers are beginning to understand...



You could always try and inspire us with some more of your amazing fuzzy maths signature truisms. Laughing

Glad to see an artist that is humble.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I think is important for us to see how the different cultures and racial identities look like.


Some things I would like to see:



  • Architecture (such as housing and/or towns)

  • Typical Clothing (common and noble people)

  • How children look like

  • Cultural food and kitchens

  • Racial favorite weapons

  • Racial favorite armor

  • A typical family

  • A merchant

  • Ships, wagons, or other vehicles


I think is important to see the most popular non-human races, such as elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, dragonborn, and tieflings.

Wow... I didn't think they would admit it. "Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?"

That just made my day. Maybe the developers are beginning to understand...



You never, ever cease to amaze me with your unrepentant inability to conceive that perhaps, just perhaps, it has nothing to do with a lack of understanding, and things could be simply that the developers and/or the feedback they are receiving simply disagree with you. I mean, is that so hard to conceive?

I mean, here they are asking for feedback - like they have been - and you do little else but complain about it? Astounding.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.

Wow... I didn't think they would admit it. "Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?"



Officially out of ideas.
Because, you know, not working over thanksgiving weekend is a mortal sin.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Wow... I didn't think they would admit it. "Rather than waste a lot of virtual ink writing something uninspired and boring, I'd rather take the opportunity to ask you what is important to you at this time as it relates to D&D art and design?"

That just made my day. Maybe the developers are beginning to understand...



You never, ever cease to amaze me with your unrepentant inability to conceive that perhaps, just perhaps, it has nothing to do with a lack of understanding, and things could be simply that the developers and/or the feedback they are receiving simply disagree with you. I mean, is that so hard to conceive?

I mean, here they are asking for feedback - like they have been - and you do little else but complain about it? Astounding.




At first I was confused by what they were doing and chalked it up to incompetence. Then Mearls told us it was intentional to test the boundaries of how many people he can anger into rage quitting. At that point I knew it was pure incompetence. No one who had an iota of PR or marketing experience would do that on purpose.

It also confirms my suspicion that WotC simply doesn't have a PR or marketing department as they wouldn't have let mearls do that except in a closed play test with NDAs.

Its refreshing that one of the columnists openly admits they don't really know what's going on. Now maybe we can get somewhere...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
At first I was confused by what they were doing and chalked it up to incompetence. Then Mearls told us it was intentional to test the boundaries of how many people he can anger into rage quitting. At that point I knew it was pure incompetence. No one who had an iota of PR or marketing experience would do that on purpose.

It also confirms my suspicion that WotC simply doesn't have a PR or marketing department as they wouldn't have let mearls do that except in a closed play test with NDAs.


I think it's less that they don't have one, and more that the DnD team doesn't get the budget to use it. DnD development is, after all, working on a shoestring budget compared to Magic: the Gathering, because it isn't getting enough revenue to be a Major Brand.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
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I don't think there's anything wrong in throwing crazy ideas at the community to see how they fare. When you look at your typical avid D&D player (and if you're not an avid player it's likely you won't get too worked up about a playtest), you are looking at someone who enjoys to pick things apart and find faults. Most of the D&D players I know are pretty conservative with their wallets but free with their words and when given free stuff to criticise they'll grab it with both hands. You'll never shut them up, and even if they detest what they see often they'll keep an eye on it, especially if they're told their feedback matters and there are regular updates.


Sounds to me like the playtest is doing exactly that. Mission accomplished.


At first I was confused by what they were doing and chalked it up to incompetence. Then Mearls told us it was intentional to test the boundaries of how many people he can anger into rage quitting. At that point I knew it was pure incompetence. No one who had an iota of PR or marketing experience would do that on purpose.

It also confirms my suspicion that WotC simply doesn't have a PR or marketing department as they wouldn't have let mearls do that except in a closed play test with NDAs.

Its refreshing that one of the columnists openly admits they don't really know what's going on. Now maybe we can get somewhere...



They are testing the design boundaries to see exactly where the edges of the sandbox are. This is completely sensible for them to do - Mike said specifically in this week's Legend & Lore article that "Frankly, that's not surprising, but now is the best time for us to challenge our assumptions before we lock things down." That is exactly what they are doing - making sure they aren't working on assumptions, and that they are working from hard facts. 

What you seem to have trouble getting is that they are simply going about this in a manner you don't like, but you won't admit it. Or, you will, but you're placing all the blame on them, like they should have consulted you personally before going on with the playtest. Claiming that a company like WotC doesn't have a PR or marketing department - when their entire purpose for being is to market things to an audience - is entirely ridiculous, and shows how much you really are just pissed that your favorite edition isn't going to be getting any more support. It's bitter nerdrage, and I pity you.

At no point did any column say they didn't know what's going on - that's you pulling that inference out of your nether regions, with absolutely no support behind it whatsoever. As was already said in this thread, gods forbid they don't work over Thanksgiving. Seriously, give it a rest.

For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon

@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?

 

It is entirely unnecessary to denigrate someone else's approach to gaming in order to validate your own.