Is learning a new game system fun or not?

Just curious what people’s experiences are and how open the community is to trying new things. I’m 40 and have been war gaming for since 3e D&D came out. I’ve played a bunch of games, but the RPG systems of the 80’s and 90’s were (for the most part) less complicated than current models.


 What have you played? How long have you been playing? Would you like to try new rules and new settings?


 Thanks for your time and comments.

Elves, Gates, Book-binding and Doom On the Rocks: Breaking rules and lichen maps Is character development killing exploration in our games?
I like new games, but I expect the game to stay faily conistent from edition to edition. Radical rules changes always causes a split where the flgs needs the new edition played to sell books, but there are several people who don't want to go to the next edition. SO I like new RPG Systems just not within a game itself.
I'm generally open to new games and settings, often I get excited for them, but I don't relish the "learning new rules" part.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
learning rules and game systems is a big part of the hobby for me. i'm not a game designer or anything, but  i do enjoy really reading and discussing RPG mechanics.

Happy to be back on the best D&D forum on the internet!

Very fun.  It's great to see how people break down physics, culture, and different species. 
What have I played? (warning: acronym heavy ;) )
Lots of d20, OSR D&D, SWSE, BASH, MSH (FASERIP), LOTR (Decipher), FASA Doctor Who

How long have I been playing?
Since 3e came out

Would I like to try new rules and settings?
Definitely! Though I should probably add that BASH and MSH are so popular among my group at the moment that it's almost impossible to get them to spend time on anything else, even the DDN playtest, which exactly zero have signed up for (except me).
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
Very fun.  It's great to see how people break down physics, culture, and different species. 

This.  As a game designer who has faced all of these challenges before, it's always interesting to see what choices other people have made.

That being said, I can usually get a sense of whether a system is worth learning within the first few pages.  If it's clear that they have radically opposed design goals, then there's nothing that can make me care enough about the system to learn it.

The metagame is not the game.

I've been playing RPGs since the 1e era, and have played more then I can keep track of. I like trying new games and new settings, and I will generally try anything at least once.

How much fun a new game is to learn depends on the game. Some very good games have a very steep learning curve, others don't. Generally there is a bit of a trade off between simple games that are quick and easy to pick up but don't have a lot of staying power and complex games that are harder to learn but more flexible and deep. However, very fun and very bad games can be round at both ends of the spectrum.



Alternity, D&D 3.x, D&D 4e, Pathfinder, Shadowrun 4e, Old World of Darkness, New World of Darkness, Lord of the Rings CODA system, Mutants and Masterminds, Palladium, Classic Marvel, Star Wars D20, Star Wars Saga, and several custom-built role-playing systems created by people I know. Most of the systems I have played, I have enjoyed. Only a couple up here that I didn't like. My two favorites have been Alternity and D&D 3.x
I've played D&D (BCEMI), AD&D (1st & 2nd), 4th Edition D&D, Rolemaster (LotR), & Traveller.

I've DMed D&D, AD&D, 4th Edition D&D and Rolemaster (LotR).

I've read a lot of material from other systems (Alternity, Pathfinder, Serenity RPG, Star Wars RPG); but have never actually played them.

I've been playing since the early 80's.

In those days, I was all for trying out new systems and settings.

Since then, I've developed my own campaign world and have pretty much stuck to it, at least for all the (AD&D/D&D) games that I've DMed.

These days (working two jobs and with a family that doesn't get enough time from me as it is), I'm not as open to trying new things. I DM one regular game (D&DNext playtest), which only meets once every two weeks. I still read as much as I can, though.
It CAN be fun. Whether it is or not has 100% to do with whether you like the game style or not. An excellent example would be my girlfriend who just recently, in the last year, got into table tops. She likes vivid characters but hates large amounts of math. So when I tried to get her to learn pathfinder, she found it boring and was very resistant. But then she turned around and devoured the New WoD core rulebook.

So in the end, the question of it being fun or not can't be codified with yes or no. It's entirely personal. 
My two copper.
If the rules are easy to learn and understand (and that also include how the rules are presented), then yes, it can be fun...but some system and games...is almost like they don't want people to play their system.
If the rules are easy to learn and understand (and that also include how the rules are presented), then yes, it can be fun...but some system and games...is almost like they don't want people to play their system.


The first time I flipped through the Anima: Beyond Fantasy rulebook, I could feel the math part of my brain dripping out of my ear...I actually said "What the hell? Who would play University Algebra: The game?"...and now I own all the books :P Fun system if you wade through the math.
My two copper.

I've been playing since the late '80s and I learned a lot of systems early in my gaming days: oWoD, 2e AD&D, BESM, Shadowrun (early version.. forget which but if it wasn't 1st it was 2nd), Earthdawn, Palladium/RIFTS, hol, paranoia, hackmaster... few others but those stand out in my mind. Toon as well; that was fun.


After we took on 3e D&D my lust for learning new systems diminished. I think it's for two reasons:



  1. I was happy with what I was playing and I was comfortable enough with game systems to just change things I didn't like. 3e D&D allowed for a lot of tweaking so we sorta kept that one, Mage: The Ascention, and Earthdawn.

  2. Systems in general seemed to want to account for more and more that I felt was largely unnecessary or more easily resolved with an opposed roll. I really latched onto opposed rolls 'cause it makes it feel like there are risks. I found myself looking at new rulesets but not actually using many of the rules they offered, which made the act of learning new systems feel like a waste.


I still find looking at new systems interesting, but usually I take the bits I like and incorporate them into the framework I'm most comfortable with (these days, 3e).

 I don't really like RPG's. More or less play D&D and Star Wars RPG (D6/Saga) exclusively. I've tried a few others but those are my main ones.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

I've been playing RPGs since the 1e era, and have played more then I can keep track of. I like trying new games and new settings, and I will generally try anything at least once.

How much fun a new game is to learn depends on the game. Some very good games have a very steep learning curve, others don't. Generally there is a bit of a trade off between simple games that are quick and easy to pick up but don't have a lot of staying power and complex games that are harder to learn but more flexible and deep. However, very fun and very bad games can be round at both ends of the spectrum.






The link between complexity and staying power is interesting. I'm playing Lamentations of the Flame Princess right now, pretty rules light system. I'm very interested to see if DDN will pull me away from Lamentations when DDN comes out.

.......

  1. Systems in general seemed to want to account for more and more that I felt was largely unnecessary or more easily resolved with an opposed roll. I really latched onto opposed rolls 'cause it makes it feel like there are risks. I found myself looking at new rulesets but not actually using many of the rules they offered, which made the act of learning new systems feel like a waste.....




Isn't that the truth! I often see what appears to be complexity for the sake of complexity which I have no time for. I like dice rituals that are specific to different aspects of a game, classes or combat vs non-combat actions. But when the resolution of those different rituals becomes bloated and bound up with modifiers, addendums, adjustments and options I start to lose interest in what the result was meant to signify.

I much prefer tactical decisions and thought to be focused on in game, in character options.
I have been playing RPGs since 1976. I have played, run, and/or owned about two hundred different systems. Some have been favourites, some have not. I buy and try out new systems every year, usually several different ones, which I actually find easier these days because of the availability of PDF versions fo most systems. Some systems I try and enjoy, some I don't, which is how it's always been.  Sometimes a system I didn't like for what it was designed for turns out to be excellent for something else. Part of the fun for me is trying things out and seeing what works.  I am however much more reluctant to try out new versions of systems which I've tried before and disliked, even if the mechanics are supposedly quite different. I certainly won't buy such a system until I've tried it.

These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead. Playing: Legendof Five Rings, The One Ring, Fate Core. Planning: Lords in the Eastern Marches, Runequest in Glorantha. 

I'd say it's about 90% of the fun for me.  And my definition of "system" is much more general:  yes, D&D is a system, and so is Call of Cthulu, but as far as the question of "is learning a new game system fun or not" then D&D 4e is a system, D&D 4e defenders are a system, D&D 4e defender swordmages are a system, and D&D 4e defender shielding swordmages are a system.

Each tier of specificity is a new system to explore, each class a new system to learn, each style of play something as interesting as the entire "RPG System" that contains it.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Just curious what people’s experiences are and how open the community is to trying new things. I’m 40 and have been war gaming for since 3e D&D came out. I’ve played a bunch of games, but the RPG systems of the 80’s and 90’s were (for the most part) less complicated than current models.


 What have you played? How long have you been playing? Would you like to try new rules and new settings?


 Thanks for your time and comments.




I am looking forward to learning a new system when our current campaigns finish up early next year.

And unless their is radical improvement in 5e between now and then there is not a snowballs chance it will be DnD

Even if our next system bombs we would be more likely to go back to 4e or even 2e than we would be to use 5e at this point.

 
I am not a big fan of rules.  But I like to houserule so I usually browse for anything I might want to try.  I mostly look for ways to improve DMing.

"The Apollo moon landing is off topic for this thread and this forum. Let's get back on topic." Crazy Monkey

I am not a big fan of rules.  But I like to houserule so I usually browse for anything I might want to try.  I mostly look for ways to improve DMing.



+1 even if I never play DDN the advantage / disadvantage mechanic will be worth the time I have spent here all by itself. Thats a great one.
What an odd perspective.

I suppose you feel the same way about spending cash on tonight's dinner, despite the fact that it's invalidating the lunch you already spent cash on?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Well I intend to pick up the core books for 5e and if they manage to not be horrible I'll probably keep on buying books. I enjoy watching this game evolve, and as long as it doesn't take too many giant leaps backwards I'll continue to observe and participate in that evolution. 
Since i'm really the only avid gamer of my group, I like to read and learn what I can get my hands on. Which, frankly, isn't much unless you want to pay for it or pirate it (neither are really that great a choice). So I've started reading Fuzion Undecided because that's the system used for Record of Lodoss war (well one of them) and I'm intrigued by the Point-buy/build your character style instead of Class/level based as D&D is. What I've come to realize that a lot of games still play on many old D&D Tropes such as Casting in rounds vs turns. Something that I guess is a deal breaker is for spellcasters to be able to function freely, instead of confined to sitting and wating X-rounds to have their spells function. So for that, I often have to tone down the spells power to mitigate the faster casting time factor.

Also, I like seeing how other games play and how their mechanics differ from traditional d20. I really want to get into Warhammer 40K but there seems to be SOOO MUCH information and source books and even editions (apparently 3rd Edition is hated on and compared to 4E so perhaps I'll like it) that I really don't know where to start. I've pretty much decided to take the setting of Warhammer 40K and just use 4E characters instead. I'll have to change around the words (Hand Crossbow to Pistol, Shortbow to Sub-machine gun, etc.) but I think the power-based 4E can work well with a setting like that. 

I also think the designers need to be using some of these systems to get new ideas from. It's fine to pull from all the previous editions of D&D to get the basics of what you want to include, but going outside that market for additional ideas is a MUST to maintain some standing within the Modern RPG world.    
Also, I like seeing how other games play and how their mechanics differ from traditional d20. I really want to get into Warhammer 40K but there seems to be SOOO MUCH information and source books and even editions (apparently 3rd Edition is hated on and compared to 4E so perhaps I'll like it) that I really don't know where to start. I've pretty much decided to take the setting of Warhammer 40K and just use 4E characters instead. I'll have to change around the words (Hand Crossbow to Pistol, Shortbow to Sub-machine gun, etc.) but I think the power-based 4E can work well with a setting like that.



The Warhammer 40K games aren't hated on (at least, not because of erroneous comparisons to 4e), that's Warhammmer Fantasy 3rd editon. For some very irrational reasons, actually. You are howevver quite correct about the amount of material out for it. I will however note that it's split into several lines, and while the system is (almost entirely) compatible, a lot of material is only really relevant if you're playing one of those lines. 

I also think the designers need to be using some of these systems to get new ideas from. It's fine to pull from all the previous editions of D&D to get the basics of what you want to include, but going outside that market for additional ideas is a MUST to maintain some standing within the Modern RPG world.    



I'm sure there are lots of things which could be drawn from the wider world of RPG design. I remember having an argument about whether Pendragon Passions could/should be ported to AD&D back in the 1980s. I think they'd actually work well, but I also would expect some very angry reactions and vows to never allow the module - god forbid it was core.

These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling, And took their wages, and are dead. Playing: Legendof Five Rings, The One Ring, Fate Core. Planning: Lords in the Eastern Marches, Runequest in Glorantha. 


 I really want to get into Warhammer 40K but there seems to be SOOO MUCH information and source books and even editions (apparently 3rd Edition is hated on and compared to 4E so perhaps I'll like it) that I really don't know where to start. I've pretty much decided to take the setting of Warhammer 40K and just use 4E characters instead. I'll have to change around the words (Hand Crossbow to Pistol, Shortbow to Sub-machine gun, etc.) but I think the power-based 4E can work well with a setting like that. 

 



40k is a great game! Thats what I have been doing for the past 10 years =-) ">Here's a quick video (10 min) that goes over the basics of 40k from a role-players perspective

What an odd perspective.

I suppose you feel the same way about spending cash on tonight's dinner, despite the fact that it's invalidating the lunch you already spent cash on?


What an horrible analogy.

I can't eat rule books and do not need three everyday to stay alive. So once I aquired a rule book I can keep it and do not need to buy a new one.


So if you don't need to buy a new one, why do you have to buy a new one?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

The Warhammer 40K games aren't hated on (at least, not because of erroneous comparisons to 4e), that's Warhammmer Fantasy 3rd editon. For some very irrational reasons, actually. You are howevver quite correct about the amount of material out for it. I will however note that it's split into several lines, and while the system is (almost entirely) compatible, a lot of material is only really relevant if you're playing one of those lines. 



I was referring to WHFRP and the distinctions between 2nd Edition and 3rd Edition. I've read some of the Amazon.com reviews and much of the angery posts comment on how FFG's messed with the game and ruined the franchise like D&D did with 4E . But I'll keep my eye out for supplements at my local Half-Price Book stores. I often come across a "Dark Heresy" book compatable with W40K but I'm not sure which edition.


I'm sure there are lots of things which could be drawn from the wider world of RPG design. I remember having an argument about whether Pendragon Passions could/should be ported to AD&D back in the 1980s. I think they'd actually work well, but I also would expect some very angry reactions and vows to never allow the module - god forbid it was core.



WHich is a bit sad. I'm sure other RPGs out there have awesome ideas that are waiting to be pilferd for their crunchy bits.


 I really want to get into Warhammer 40K but there seems to be SOOO MUCH information and source books and even editions (apparently 3rd Edition is hated on and compared to 4E so perhaps I'll like it) that I really don't know where to start. I've pretty much decided to take the setting of Warhammer 40K and just use 4E characters instead. I'll have to change around the words (Hand Crossbow to Pistol, Shortbow to Sub-machine gun, etc.) but I think the power-based 4E can work well with a setting like that. 

 



40k is a great game! Thats what I have been doing for the past 10 years =-) ">Here's a quick video (10 min) that goes over the basics of 40k from a role-players perspective




Hmmm....when I get home I'll check it out. Youtube is banned from my work, lol!


Hmmm....when I get home I'll check it out. Youtube is banned from my work, lol!



lol damned work, they should have youtube thursday!



Hmmm....when I get home I'll check it out. Youtube is banned from my work, lol!



lol damned work, they should have youtube thursday!




I know, instead they op'ed for Taco Thursdays. But man do I love me some tacos.........Tongue Out

I do find it interesting how much retro love is going around these days with games, but I wonder what it is about learning these older systems is so appealing.


I know I like that they leave a fair bit to the imagination but I think there's more to it than that.


I do find it interesting how much retro love is going around these days with games, but I wonder what it is about learning these older systems is so appealing.


I know I like that they leave a fair bit to the imagination but I think there's more to it than that.





One theory I have is that; rules dicussions can kind of fill in the empty time slots that sometimes occur at a table. Like when the DM needs a minute to think through something or someone has to get up for a stretch or smoke or whatever. The people still there can always fall back to conversation about rules and how they apply specifically to the game at hand.


 As players gain experience those breaks in the game become less frequent and they get filled with more interesting conversation about the game. So the “rules” are no longer needed to keep peoples minds focused on the game.


 Many of the players who started on DD3 are getting to that point, where detailed options in the rules are actually getting in the way of how they want to play, and so that generation of gamers is looking at more rules light systems.


 I don’t think this is a full blown movement yet, but I do believe that it is on the horizon.

DDN is my first experience with a play test. So far, I  am enjoying the process. In general I enjoy reading different systems and seeing the different fluff and crunch designers come up with,


 

If you don't want to buy a new one, why do you care what's in it?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
What bluespruce786 said about the DD3 generation is pretty much exactly how I feel.
Children believe what we tell them, they have complete faith in us. I ask of you a little of this childlike simplicity, and to bring us luck, let me speak four truly magic words: "A long time ago...." (Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast) Winner of You Build the Character #12, YbtC #22, YbtC #24, YbtC #28 and YbtC #35 Winner of You Make the... Contest #8
If it's fun, or if it's something genuinely innovative. I'm happy to learn a new game if it gives me something that I don't already have. If it's just a floral re-arrangement of a game I've already played, I won't bother. And I can usually tell if it is or not fairly quickly. 'Fun' and 'innovative', in its true sense, are not things you can hide: it jumps out at the reader. 

"Ah, the age-old conundrum. Defenders of a game are too blind to see it's broken, and critics are too idiotic to see that it isn't." - Brian McCormick

One theory I have is that; rules dicussions can kind of fill in the empty time slots that sometimes occur at a table. Like when the DM needs a minute to think through something or someone has to get up for a stretch or smoke or whatever. The people still there can always fall back to conversation about rules and how they apply specifically to the game at hand.

 As players gain experience those breaks in the game become less frequent and they get filled with more interesting conversation about the game. So the “rules” are no longer needed to keep peoples minds focused on the game.


 Many of the players who started on DD3 are getting to that point, where detailed options in the rules are actually getting in the way of how they want to play, and so that generation of gamers is looking at more rules light systems.


 I don’t think this is a full blown movement yet, but I do believe that it is on the horizon.



I can't help but draw comparisons to how people perceived the birth of crpgs. I remember even thinking myself "how nice will it be to have a computer handle all the rules for me" and yet here I am still playing pen and paper. I just led a friend through his first ever session of D&D 3rd. He's had no exposure to rpgs outside of a computer game, and he adjusted pretty quickly and he seemed to really enjoy it. He commented almost immediately at how completely different the experience was to playing a computer game - quite a lot more different than he anticipated.


I see the WOTC era of D&D to be all about what computers can do for the game: the OGL, the introduction of global forums and digital publishing, DDI, the dependence on web tools and the birth of the virtual table top. 3e and 4e both are heavily influenced by computers and what they can do in the same way the earliest crpgs were influenced by AD&D and what it could do.


I think one of the reasons we're seeing a resurgence in retro games is because a lot of folks have discovered what many of us all ready knew: the computer doesn't replace the ttrpg and digital tools are no replacement for a person behind a screen with a beer and a love of scheming. There's a megalomaniac in every DM, I think, just waiting for its moment to strike


It's good that 3e and 4e pushed the integration of computers in game planning and gameplay as much as they did; it lets us know how much is enough.

What have you played? How long have you been playing? Would you like to try new rules and new settings?

I started in 1980.  I played all the 80s TSR, Chaosium, Hero, and SJG games, WEG Star Wars,  plus Traveller, BattleTech, and GURPS (under protest), among many others, just in the 80s - I was young, energetic and single.  In the 90s, I played Hero and Storyteller (which my wife liked), primarilly, though I did keep my old AD&D campaign running for a while.  In the 'oughts,' with a lot on plate at work and not a lot of time to game, I came back to D&D with 3.0, 3.5 and 4e, while Storyteller lost me with the nWoD, I kept runing Hero for a number of years, but it finally lost me with a ponderous 6th edition.  Currently I'm running & playing 4e regularly, and a few other games - Storyteller, Gamma World, CoC, FATE, Airship Pirates, Savage Worlds - mostly at cons.  

 

 

Oops, looks like this request tried to create an infinite loop. We do not allow such things here. We are a professional website!

What bluespruce786 said about the DD3 generation is pretty much exactly how I feel.


When did you start playing FTJ?


I think one of the reasons we're seeing a resurgence in retro games is because a lot of folks have discovered what many of us all ready knew: the computer doesn't replace the ttrpg and digital tools are no replacement for a person behind a screen with a beer and a love of scheming. There's a megalomaniac in every DM, I think, just waiting for its moment to strike


It's good that 3e and 4e pushed the integration of computers in game planning and gameplay as much as they did; it lets us know how much is enough.



This one of the best posts that I have ever seen. It made me laugh and think all at the same time! Well said.
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