Why D&D Next?

Did WotC ever say why they are making a new edition rather than just updating 4e?  Just curious.
 
Not entirely sure what your asking here. Where do you see this as a 4e update?
I'm pretty sure that it was because it was performing so poorly (by whatever metrics) that they deemed it unsalvageable.  I guess that's just speculation on my part, though.

I mean, wasn't Essentials the 4E update?

The metagame is not the game.

1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this.
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)
4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.

In short.  $$$.  The same motivation most businesses have to do anything.  If there is a question about a business's behavior for better or worse, the answer is almost always $$$.  Note that this isn't a bad thing...it's why they exist

 
Elephant in the room...I see what you did there.
My two copper.
1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this.
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)
4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.

In short.  $$$.  The same motivation most businesses have to do anything.  If there is a question about a business's behavior for better or worse, the answer is almost always $$$.  Note that this isn't a bad thing...it's why they exist

 



Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?  It would alleviate a lot of flame wars that fire up here I would think.  I just feel by throwing it to the community, there's outrage and chaos every time they put something out.  Mainly because we don't have an idea about where their head space is at.

I mean I would of understood it better if I had known before that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG right now in the world.
Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?




They have.  Multiple times:
"4e was broken as a game and business and it needs to go away....The audience is fractured among a few D&D systems, the GSL did not accomplish what it was supposed to do (create broad 3pp support for the system), the designs has evolved over time (class changes, monsters etc), Essentials was/is confusing to new(er) players and veterans. If 4e was healthy we would not be talking about 5e right now."
- Scott Rouse, WotC Brand Manager

Still doesn't stop the flamewars.  Now let's move on and make DDN great, m'kay?


I think they could have eliminated a lot of flame wars by not saying that they want to make a new version of D&D that embodies the essence of D&D and asking what we thought that looked like then giving us a forum to go wild in.
I think they could have eliminated a lot of flame wars by not saying that they want to make a new version of D&D that embodies the essence of D&D and asking what we thought that looked like then giving us a forum to go wild in.


WotC can't eliminate flame wars. No matter what they do or don't do, people will hate them for it, and do so loudly.
Ever feel like people on these forums can't possibly understand how wrong they are? Feeling trolled? Don't get mad. Report Post.
They have.  Multiple times:
"4e was broken as a game and business and it needs to go away....The audience is fractured among a few D&D systems, the GSL did not accomplish what it was supposed to do (create broad 3pp support for the system), the designs has evolved over time (class changes, monsters etc), Essentials was/is confusing to new(er) players and veterans. If 4e was healthy we would not be talking about 5e right now."
- Scott Rouse, WotC Brand Manager

Oh, I see. 5E is a second try at what they tried to do with Essentials.

"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this. 
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)

I'd agree with all of these except 3. You have to understand the investment made in 3rd edition and the fact that a lot of players already knew how to play 3rd and had 3rd edition campaigns going on. Further WotC did not publish essential classes so the campaigns could be converted, you had to either basically start over and not finish your campaign or continue your third edition campaign. It would appear a lot of people chose to continue their third edition campaign. Though it is true many people didn't like the changes, it is also true that many people were in the spot that their game group wasn't switching so they couldn't switch. This would have been helped tremendously if all the 3.5 core classes had appeared at launch and if the game wasn't changed so radically.


4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.



Here is the problem, this idea isn't going to work. Largely you are going to have 3rd, pathfinder, and 4th edition games going on that won't be able to easily convert to D&D Next (This is a problem). The folks who went to Pathfinder are probably going to stay with Pathfinder and forget Next even exists (Next is becoming a lot more like 4th edition and so there is probably going to be a lot of complaints about that). Then you have the guys who actually love 4th edition. And finally the guys who still play a way older edition. Getting a significant portion of all of these follks to jump on board with next is going to be hard, the reason is networking. You already have people playing the other editions and can find groups to play the other editions. You are already invested in other editions. This means the change to Next is going to likely be slow, and the slower it is the more likely groups will start new campaigns with their old editions. This means it will be about two years before they will even consider switching over to Next becauuse of the radically new rules. 

ONe thing wizards does have going on for it is that a good portion of players will be a part of the playtest and will start campaigns with the Next playtest once their campaigns finish. This will either be a good thing or a bad thing. Good if people become early adopters. Bad if they play a few games of Next and goes this sucks and go back to their old edition game probably locking them in for another two years.

So likely WotC isn't going to be increasing its fanbase, they are just going to make it smaller than what it was with 4th. Though one key could be a lot of people don't like Vancian casting and that could help them get some older players if they don't go too close to 4th edition. A nice balancing act that is likely to not to increase the player base at least not for several years.
I'm pretty sure that it was because it was performing so poorly (by whatever metrics) that they deemed it unsalvageable.  I guess that's just speculation on my part, though.

I mean, wasn't Essentials the 4E update?



Essentials was meant to be a throw back to previous editions, but because it had the 4E logo on front no one that didn't like 4E would touch it. Many 4E fans didn't like it so it was a pretty universal failure.

So the problem was the 4E logo. If they had billed it as a whole new edition, with some backwards compatibility to 4E it probably would have been a best seller.

So basically 5E is just getting rid of the 4E stigma and supposedly making everyone want to play under one roof. I have yet to see any reason to personally and I've heard as much from other edition players...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this.
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)
4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.

In short.  $$$.  The same motivation most businesses have to do anything.  If there is a question about a business's behavior for better or worse, the answer is almost always $$$.  Note that this isn't a bad thing...it's why they exist

 



Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?  It would alleviate a lot of flame wars that fire up here I would think.  I just feel by throwing it to the community, there's outrage and chaos every time they put something out.  Mainly because we don't have an idea about where their head space is at.

I mean I would of understood it better if I had known before that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG right now in the world.


Yeah pretty much WotC launched essentials, Pathfinder got into Barnes and Noble (Front facing shelf space!) and other major retail stores, D&D 4th started failing and Pathfinder shot above WotC to be the number one selling RPG company (Which convential wisdom would say never would happen, but it did becuase they took the majorty players who still played 3rd.)

They have.  Multiple times:
"4e was broken as a game and business and it needs to go away....The audience is fractured among a few D&D systems, the GSL did not accomplish what it was supposed to do (create broad 3pp support for the system), the designs has evolved over time (class changes, monsters etc), Essentials was/is confusing to new(er) players and veterans. If 4e was healthy we would not be talking about 5e right now."
- Scott Rouse, WotC Brand Manager

Oh, I see. 5E is a second try at what they tried to do with Essentials.




Yep, except only without the 4E logo on front...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Essentials was meant to be a throw back to previous editions, but because it had the 4E logo on front no one that didn't like 4E would touch it.



You call this a 4E logo ? Wink

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this.
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)
4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.

In short.  $$$.  The same motivation most businesses have to do anything.  If there is a question about a business's behavior for better or worse, the answer is almost always $$$.  Note that this isn't a bad thing...it's why they exist

 



Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?  It would alleviate a lot of flame wars that fire up here I would think.  I just feel by throwing it to the community, there's outrage and chaos every time they put something out.  Mainly because we don't have an idea about where their head space is at.

I mean I would of understood it better if I had known before that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG right now in the world.


Yeah pretty much WotC launched essentials, Pathfinder got into Barnes and Noble (Front facing shelf space!) and other major retail stores, D&D 4th started failing and Pathfinder shot above WotC to be the number one selling RPG company (Which convential wisdom would say never would happen, but it did becuase they took the majorty players who still played 3rd.)




Some would say it was because their adventures and campaign worlds were much higher quality than WotC and that they generally tried to communicate with their customers and provide good customer service...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I'm pretty sure that it was because it was performing so poorly (by whatever metrics) that they deemed it unsalvageable.  I guess that's just speculation on my part, though.

I mean, wasn't Essentials the 4E update?



Essentials was meant to be a throw back to previous editions, but because it had the 4E logo on front no one that didn't like 4E would touch it. Many 4E fans didn't like it so it was a pretty universal failure.

So the problem was the 4E logo. If they had billed it as a whole new edition, with some backwards compatibility to 4E it probably would have been a best seller.

So basically 5E is just getting rid of the 4E stigma and supposedly making everyone want to play under one roof. I have yet to see any reason to personally and I've heard as much from other edition players...



I disagree. I couldn't tell the difference between Essentails and 4th having not played for 4 years. So you could have had the 3.5 logo on the thing and It wouldn't have gotten me behind it. 
Essentials was meant to be a throw back to previous editions, but because it had the 4E logo on front no one that didn't like 4E would touch it.



You call this a 4E logo ? 




Look at the Hero's of the Fallen Lands and Hero's of the Forgotten realms or whatever covers...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
I'm pretty sure that it was because it was performing so poorly (by whatever metrics) that they deemed it unsalvageable.  I guess that's just speculation on my part, though.

I mean, wasn't Essentials the 4E update?



Essentials was meant to be a throw back to previous editions, but because it had the 4E logo on front no one that didn't like 4E would touch it. Many 4E fans didn't like it so it was a pretty universal failure.

So the problem was the 4E logo. If they had billed it as a whole new edition, with some backwards compatibility to 4E it probably would have been a best seller.

So basically 5E is just getting rid of the 4E stigma and supposedly making everyone want to play under one roof. I have yet to see any reason to personally and I've heard as much from other edition players...



I disagree. I couldn't tell the difference between Essentails and 4th having not played for 4 years. So you could have had the 3.5 logo on the thing and It wouldn't have gotten me behind it. 



If you couldn't tell the difference between Essentials and 4E, something was majorly wrong.

The Slayer, the Essentials version of the Fighter, could fit on a single page powers and all. In fact they only got one power and that power was once per encounter hit it harder. So most combats went something like this:

Hit it.
Hit it again.
Hit it harder.
Hit it again.
Hit it again.

If you couldn't tell the difference again you either didn't look at Essentials or you have something wrong with you...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
1)  Pathfinders is popular and WoTC does not profit from this.
2)  4e book sales and D&D Insider account subscriptions are likely down from 24-36 months ago.
3)  The player fanbase was split on 4e with many grognards lamenting the changes (hence 1)
4)  WoTC wants to unify the fanbase with a 3.5/4e hybrid and bring back the Pathfinders players
5)  WoTC wants to invigorate its D&D fanbase into a new round of purchasing.

In short.  $$$.  The same motivation most businesses have to do anything.  If there is a question about a business's behavior for better or worse, the answer is almost always $$$.  Note that this isn't a bad thing...it's why they exist

 



Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?  It would alleviate a lot of flame wars that fire up here I would think.  I just feel by throwing it to the community, there's outrage and chaos every time they put something out.  Mainly because we don't have an idea about where their head space is at.

I mean I would of understood it better if I had known before that Pathfinder is the #1 selling RPG right now in the world.


Yeah pretty much WotC launched essentials, Pathfinder got into Barnes and Noble (Front facing shelf space!) and other major retail stores, D&D 4th started failing and Pathfinder shot above WotC to be the number one selling RPG company (Which convential wisdom would say never would happen, but it did becuase they took the majorty players who still played 3rd.)




Some would say it was because their adventures and campaign worlds were much higher quality than WotC and that they generally tried to communicate with their customers and provide good customer service...

I could go either way on the adventure paths. I'm ont so sure they are a lot better than what WotC puts out. But the communicaiton at Paizo is way better than WotC could ever hope for. You just have a different vibe. I think Mike Mearls is partially trying to make that vibe happen but it isn't quite working out very well.

I'm pretty sure the problem was that I hadn't looked at a 4th edition rule book in 4 years.
Essentials was a -somewhat- stripped-down 4E. But it was unmistakably 4E. Grid-only combat. AEDU power scheme. Nerfed wizards. Ugly-ass anime artwork.

It was absolutely not in any way backwards-compatible with 3e, or any previous edition. Thus, as Rouse noted, the continued splintering of the fanbase, and the consequent turn to DDN.
Essentials was a -somewhat- stripped-down 4E. But it was unmistakably 4E. Grid-only combat. AEDU power scheme. Nerfed wizards. Ugly-ass anime artwork. It was absolutely not in any way backwards-compatible with 3e, or any previous edition. Thus, as Rouse noted, the continued splintering of the fanbase, and the consequent turn to DDN.


Yeah I never did understand why they went with that kind of artwork for.
Essentials was a -somewhat- stripped-down 4E. But it was unmistakably 4E. Grid-only combat. AEDU power scheme. Nerfed wizards. Ugly-ass anime artwork. It was absolutely not in any way backwards-compatible with 3e, or any previous edition. Thus, as Rouse noted, the continued splintering of the fanbase, and the consequent turn to DDN.



Yep, now I know you never even glanced at Essentials because it threw the AEDU power scheme out the window and went wild with subsystems for each class. Please only speak on the things you know about instead of assuming...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Essentials was a -somewhat- stripped-down 4E. But it was unmistakably 4E. Grid-only combat. AEDU power scheme. Nerfed wizards. Ugly-ass anime artwork. It was absolutely not in any way backwards-compatible with 3e, or any previous edition. Thus, as Rouse noted, the continued splintering of the fanbase, and the consequent turn to DDN.



Yep, now I know you never even glanced at Essentials because it threw the AEDU power scheme out the window and went wild with subsystems for each class. Please only speak on the things you know about instead of assuming...



Well... you know better to assume and rant ... and never recant.


  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Claiming Essentials wasn't 4th ed though is a bit much as it was fully compatable with the 4th ed rules. Its like claiming the 3.5 Players Handbook 2 isn't 3.5 because it had new and different classes like the Duskblade and Beguiler that done things the core classes couldn't.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Claiming Essentials wasn't 4th ed though is a bit much as it was fully compatable with the 4th ed rules. Its like claiming the 3.5 Players Handbook 2 isn't 3.5 because it had new and different classes like the Duskblade and Beguiler that done things the core classes couldn't.



Yeah, except no one claimed that. Your edition war PTSD is showing...

People started spreading false hoods. I corrected them. End of story.

If they had released Essentials as a new edition it would have accomplished a lot of what 5E is trying to do. They didn't. They billed it as an expansion to 4E. Many people just flat out didn't even look at it because it had the 4E logo attached. Many 4E fans didn't like it because it altered the game too much. Then WotC was all like "What's wrong?"...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Claiming Essentials wasn't 4th ed though is a bit much as it was fully compatable with the 4th ed rules.  


Basically because the games core is pretty versatile and built on being extendable, the class design in essentials was however a broadly divergent paradigm one probably more so than had been done since Tome of Battle. And many of the feats were over powered must haves. (some complained money grab).
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I'm gonna say that there's a new D&D in the works for the reasons the Wizards employees have said. For one, they recognize the major issue that there's a lot of people for whome 4th edition isn't D&D. That seems to bother the designers; after all, D&D should be recognizable and iconic in the industry, shouldn't it? Wizards of the Coast, the owners of D&D, should be able to sell D&D to whoever is looking for D&D. If somebody wants to find D&D, sees Wizards of the Coast's shop and decides that D&D isn't there, that's a problem. And that seems to have happened a lot during 4e's run.

The designers have also said that their intention is to use peripheral products like board games to keep the brand afloat -- which means that they don't have to worry about making the RPG the hippest new thing on the block. Their goal this time around isn't to show us something flashy or otherworldly or brand spankin' new. They want to show us a game that we can all simultaneously appreciate as "the real D&D."
I don't use emoticons, and I'm also pretty pleasant. So if I say something that's rude or insulting, it's probably a joke.
Claiming Essentials wasn't 4th ed though is a bit much as it was fully compatable with the 4th ed rules.  


Basically because the games core is pretty versatile and built on being extendable, the class design in essentials was however a broadly divergent paradigm one probably more so than had been done since Tome of Battle. And many of the feats were over powered must haves. (some complained money grab).
 



 It kind of puzzles me though as I do not go around claiming that the ToB was not a 3.5 book. I kind of liked it and its another option.

 Power inflation in feats is nothing new and more than a few old time posters told the 4th ed crowd this back in 2008/2009. IIRC I even told them at the rate they are releasing 4th ed bloat that it would be unsustainable due to the limitation of the AEDU structure. With around 20 status effects to play with new classes are going to either feel redundent after a while or they will have to start inventing new status effects to keep track of.

 I more or less got told to STFU by the 4vengers crowd and that I was a troll though lol. I've been buying WoTC product since 1997 and they were not going to change overnight.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Essentials failed because it tries to be all things at once.  It stayed completly compatible with 4e while trying to please pathfinder/early e holdouts and be an intro game for new players all at the same time.  The result was a game that no segment of the market really enjoyed very much.  In fact it is the quarter where Essentials was released (and nothing else) that Pathfinder first caught up with D&D sales.  D&D alienated 4e lovers, didn't move old e players and didn't gain new players.  This is probably what lead to the development of Next (which I don't think is going to fare much better). 

 
Essentials failed because it tries to be all things at once.  It stayed completly compatible with 4e while trying to please pathfinder/early e holdouts and be an intro game for new players all at the same time.  The result was a game that no segment of the market really enjoyed very much.  In fact it is the quarter where Essentials was released (and nothing else) that Pathfinder first caught up with D&D sales.  D&D alienated 4e lovers, didn't move old e players and didn't gain new players.  This is probably what lead to the development of Next (which I don't think is going to fare much better). 

 



Yep. Not to mention 3.xE Fans found a new home with Paizo and their business methods of actually working with their customers instead of 'changing direction' to them like WotC does...
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
Engaging in a little broadening exercise, I've been working on putting together an optimized pyromancer build from 4e over the last few days, and I used some essentials materials, and they definitely did not throw out the AEDU system. They gave each class a sub-option (Wizard could become a mage, which was really just a specialized wizard.) with a couple token class features, but the meat of every class was far and away still the AEDU system.

If Essentials was an attempted throw-back to other editions, it failed miserably. It also apparently failed miserably to appeal to 4e fans because of the additions they made to some of the other classes. But I still wouldn't have played it just because it still uses that AEDU system and the stripped-down multiclassing.
Essentials failed because it tries to be all things at once.  It stayed completly compatible with 4e while trying to please pathfinder/early e holdouts and be an intro game for new players all at the same time.  The result was a game that no segment of the market really enjoyed very much.  In fact it is the quarter where Essentials was released (and nothing else) that Pathfinder first caught up with D&D sales.  D&D alienated 4e lovers, didn't move old e players and didn't gain new players.  This is probably what lead to the development of Next (which I don't think is going to fare much better). 

 



Yep. Not to mention 3.xE Fans found a new home with Paizo and their business methods of actually working with their customers instead of 'changing direction' to them like WotC does...


If I can give Paizo one thing, it's that they know how to give their fans what they want. Not saying that Wizards doesn't, but Paizo has taken the Capcom business philosophy. Take something people love, and expand upon it. Give people exactly what they have wanted before, but more beef. Don't fix what isn't broke. Sound business philosophy.
My two copper.
Thank you for this.  I guess if that's the point, why don't they just come out and say it then?




They have.  Multiple times:
"4e was broken as a game and business and it needs to go away....The audience is fractured among a few D&D systems, the GSL did not accomplish what it was supposed to do (create broad 3pp support for the system), the designs has evolved over time (class changes, monsters etc), Essentials was/is confusing to new(er) players and veterans. If 4e was healthy we would not be talking about 5e right now."
- Scott Rouse, WotC Brand Manager

Still doesn't stop the flamewars.  Now let's move on and make DDN great, m'kay?





No they haven't.  Rouse said that long after he was an EX-employee of Wotc.

-Polaris
Engaging in a little broadening exercise, I've been working on putting together an optimized pyromancer build from 4e over the last few days, and I used some essentials materials, and they definitely did not throw out the AEDU system. They gave each class a sub-option (Wizard could become a mage, which was really just a specialized wizard.) with a couple token class features, but the meat of every class was far and away still the AEDU system.

If Essentials was an attempted throw-back to other editions, it failed miserably. It also apparently failed miserably to appeal to 4e fans because of the additions they made to some of the other classes. But I still wouldn't have played it just because it still uses that AEDU system and the stripped-down multiclassing.



There is only one class that gets the full AEDU and it was a caster class. The rest of them used some form of at-will plus encounter, at-will only, at-will plus daily, or some other totally foreign system. They did in fact throw AEDU out the window...Smile
"Unite the [fan] base? Hardly. As of right now, I doubt their ability to unite a slightly unruly teabag with a cup of water."--anjelika
1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
The spells we should getLook here to Check out my adventures and ideas. I've started a blog, about video games, table top role playing games, programming, and many other things its called Kel and Lok Games. My 4E Fantasy Grounds game is currently full.
IMAGE(http://static.tumblr.com/httcoly/QTplwudlb/successful-troll-is-successful-e1284085619310.jpeg)
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
Essentials failed because it tries to be all things at once.  It stayed completly compatible with 4e while trying to please pathfinder/early e holdouts and be an intro game for new players all at the same time.  The result was a game that no segment of the market really enjoyed very much.  In fact it is the quarter where Essentials was released (and nothing else) that Pathfinder first caught up with D&D sales.  D&D alienated 4e lovers, didn't move old e players and didn't gain new players.  This is probably what lead to the development of Next (which I don't think is going to fare much better). 

 



Yep. Not to mention 3.xE Fans found a new home with Paizo and their business methods of actually working with their customers instead of 'changing direction' to them like WotC does...


If I can give Paizo one thing, it's that they know how to give their fans what they want. Not saying that Wizards doesn't, but Paizo has taken the Capcom business philosophy. Take something people love, and expand upon it. Give people exactly what they have wanted before, but more beef. Don't fix what isn't broke. Sound business philosophy.



Capcom would be an awesome RPG company with they track record of quickly churning out newer versions of games with more after hearing fan grumbling.

Super D&D 5 Ultra: Special Edition

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

At least it would be better than EA. PHB 2013 with a different coloured index!!

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

Capcom would just turn it over to a company headed up by a guy who made statements like, "D&D fans are all dumb, the whole IP needs a reboot, and once they see the reboot, they will realize how dumb they were, and thank me for doing the right thing by ignoring their feedback and their raging."

@Lokiare: I'm looking at Heroes of Shadow right now, and they all still use the AEDU system. I'm seeing all kinds of "at will," "daily," and everything else. Binder, Vampire, Blackguard, they are all using the same power system. The only difference for some of them is that they aren't getting as much, but those sub-builds of those other classes, like paladin, warlock, and the like, all can still pick from their other lists.
Yeah pretty much WotC launched essentials, Pathfinder got into Barnes and Noble (Front facing shelf space!) and other major retail stores, D&D 4th started failing and Pathfinder shot above WotC to be the number one selling RPG company (Which convential wisdom would say never would happen, but it did becuase they took the majorty players who still played 3rd.)




Do you know how long Pathfinder held the mantle? A few months is nothing. An entire year is worthy of a 60 minutes piece.