Seriously. A CON class.

Can I have one?

Con-Warlock, Totemist, or Dragonfire Adept class for release.

I always applauded 4th Edition for being released with a base class for each of the ability score.

And I am perfectly okay with being force-fed fluff to get a Constitution based class.

Are you?

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

why the hell not?


I could also see a psionic class going all con up in here. Maybe a psychometabolic class.

I always really loved the Constitution-based Warlock.  Even just the (implied) flavor of it: nobody said making a pact requires that you be Charismatic - but nobody said the pact wasn't some poorly negotiated, completely one-sided affair, either.
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A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Binders were generally insane to manage but they were a really fun class that used a lot of con. They could have used it more than they did.
Forgot about binders. Though they are the hardest to convince for release.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Yep. When we wrote our version of the game aligning roles with primary attributes (giving 6 instead of 4) was the big 'AHA' moment that made the whole game click and allowed for solving most of the pre-3rd issues we had.

CON was a toughie to figure out though. At first we tried Sorcerer (in our version they're internal energy conduits, not CHA casters), but that caused too many issues (a caster whose primary role was to endure, but did so sacrificing themselves at each cast...contradictory). Then we tried Paladin and Cavalier (seperately and merged) but neither of those quite fit right. We ended up having to make an entirely new class, called it Aegis, and been happy ever since.



I once made a custom class (The Paragon) that took the "exteme health" rroute and create a class that focused on extreme bodilly function. Plays like a flightless Kryptonian with skin hard as steel, lungs so strong you can blow people over, heightened senses, and is capped off with the ability to absorb electricity into your nervous system flesh golem style.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I love the flavor that being con-based imparts to warlocks, the notion that you're a conduit of powerful energies and you can channel those energies just to the greatest extent that you can physically bear.  It might also work for a wilder-style psion class.
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why the hell not?


I could also see a psionic class going all con up in here. Maybe a psychometabolic class.




Agreed!

Aside from Con-based Warlocks, 4E had the psionic con-primary Battlemind-- turning to metal, super speed, phasing, teleportation. Plus Psionic telekinetic and telepathic control of enemies. I would LOVE something like that in Next.

Forgot about binders. Though they are the hardest to convince for release.



haha yes.


I think the basic concept is good though and you could simplify the ability set to not be totally crazy.


Actually the con based warlock isn't too far from a simplified binder.

create a class that focused on extreme bodilly function.



This phrase just made my day. I'll be giggling about this for a while, thanks.

One thing to keep in mind is that Next is not 4e.  Specifically, CON is way more important to HP than it was in 4e.  That means making a CON based class - especially if you're thinking about giving it big HD "because it's about durability" - means creating a class that has 3 times as many HP as a wizard (whereas in 4e the battlemind only had 1.5x, probably starting lower than that if the wizard took thayan/born under a bad sign).  That's not necessarily a deal breaker, especially if it gets low AC, but it's something to consider.  That's one reason I'd sooner see it as a caster class - gives you an excuse for low HD and AC so its durability isn't through the roof (even if it is quite high for a caster).
Blood Mage please!

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Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

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Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

I would love to see Con-centric martial as well as magical (and psionic) classes.

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a yogin class ?



or maybe taken from Dragonball the evocator with spells like fireball...   
Blood Mage please!



Thats certainly an idea... 

I think CON has some very cool possibiliies ranging from instinctive to painful and/or pleasurable casting ..  to luck manipulations (yes luck is in hit points why not in CON).
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

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The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

One thing to keep in mind is that Next is not 4e.  Specifically, CON is way more important to HP than it was in 4e.  That means making a CON based class - especially if you're thinking about giving it big HD "because it's about durability" - means creating a class that has 3 times as many HP as a wizard (whereas in 4e the battlemind only had 1.5x, probably starting lower than that if the wizard took thayan/born under a bad sign).  That's not necessarily a deal breaker, especially if it gets low AC, but it's something to consider.  That's one reason I'd sooner see it as a caster class - gives you an excuse for low HD and AC so its durability isn't through the roof (even if it is quite high for a caster).


It definitely does need to be handled well, but I'd like to see it done.
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Blood Mage please!



Thats certainly an idea... 

I think CON has some very cool possibiliies ranging from instinctive to painful and/or pleasurable casting ..  to luck manipulations (yes luck is in hit points why not in CON).


you rascal you.
A fighter specializing in instinctive/lucky/stamina driven repetitive strike barrages for that matter ... its not all magic.

Supernatural life force which you bend towards your magic is another flavor for CON magic 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I don't really associate luck with con, myself but durability is durability, I guess.


I'd see a con fighter as some kind of impregnible bastion of defense.

Blood Mage please!



Thats certainly an idea... 

I think CON has some very cool possibiliies ranging from instinctive to painful and/or pleasurable casting ..  to luck manipulations (yes luck is in hit points why not in CON).


you rascal you.



Wheel of Time Channellers were affected by the forces they channelled, degree of restance affects quality of casting, not resisting the magics influence is dangerous in various ways.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Why not a big fat warrior rolling over his ennemies ?
His mass could allow to make attacks to bounce back to the attackers.

And he could have a gas based mean to gain flight for short periods.

His body would be his weapon, a little like a monk, but in a more heavy style…
Why not a big fat warrior rolling over his ennemies ?
His mass could allow to make attacks to bounce back to the attackers.

And he could have a gas based mean to gain flight for short periods.

His body would be his weapon, a little like a monk, but in a more heavy style…



uggh.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Why not a big fat warrior rolling over his ennemies ?
His mass could allow to make attacks to bounce back to the attackers.

And he could have a gas based mean to gain flight for short periods.

His body would be his weapon, a little like a monk, but in a more heavy style…

And he could have a gas based mean to gain flight for short periods.
have a gas based mean
gas based
farts!....

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

Wasn't there a thread that talked about making the monk's ki run off of constitution? The idea was that ki is based on breath, and constitution is the natural ability score for a character's breath.
Why not a big fat warrior rolling over his ennemies ?
His mass could allow to make attacks to bounce back to the attackers.

And he could have a gas based mean to gain flight for short periods.

His body would be his weapon, a little like a monk, but in a more heavy style…


Lol, man I would definitely make Sir Frederick J. Dukes if I could.

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Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke

I don't really associate luck with con, myself but durability is durability, I guess.



Shrug.. hit points are a variety of things and a large measure of that is Luck at some levels the association just allows some of the fluff of hit points to better connect with how much impact CON has variously been allowed to have on them.

 

I'd see a con fighter as some kind of impregnible bastion of defense.




Instinct... can be offense too.
and stamina which allows/enables even wasteful use of energy.

Every body uses con defensively.. you have to find its active components for this idea to be distinct.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I love the flavor that being con-based imparts to warlocks, the notion that you're a conduit of powerful energies and you can channel those energies just to the greatest extent that you can physically bear.  It might also work for a wilder-style psion class.

The only off thing I see is Wilder is about going BEYOND what their body can take. Not sure if Con works for them.

However, I have been playing around with the idea of a Battlemind who, instead of harnessing the psionic energy in himself, manipulates the psionic energy that flows through everyone on the battlefield. Making it more ally friendly then psionic classes usually are. (Somehow.) If you know the setup I'm playing with, it would be a class with no per turn recharge (short rest instead) but a high number of power points. Representing a lack of self focus, but a massive resource of points that is only limited by what he can physically handle. I could definitely see Con being used for that.

I don't really associate luck with con, myself but durability is durability, I guess.


Shrug.. hit points are a variety of things and a large measure of that is Luck at some levels the association just allows some of the fluff of hit points to better connect with how much impact CON has variously been allowed to have on them.



I can see that as a way of expanding constituation usefulness. If constituion represents the characteristics that  makeup your characters health, it easy to see things like luck and spirit fitting under the way constitution is defined.

Big Model: Creative Agenda
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? join the Old Guard of 4th Edition
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Dreaming the Impossible Dream
Imagine a world where the first-time D&D player rolls stats, picks a race, picks a class, picks an alignment, and buys gear to create a character. Imagine if an experienced player, maybe the person helping our theoretical player learn the ropes, could also make a character by rolling ability scores and picking a race, class, feat, skills, class features, spells or powers, and so on. Those two players used different paths to build characters, but the system design allows them to play at the same table. -Mearl

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the publick to be the most anxious for its welfare." - Edmund Burke
I definitely understand your reasoning for equating Con to luck (via hp), but i wonder if it's not based on false logic?

When you level, you gain 1dX + ConMod. So which of these things are physical stamina and which are luck? I think it's pretty evident. The 1dX represents a little bit of everything (luck, stamina, morale), while the ConMod only represents additional fortitude.

Consider a melee weapon attack. You have a skill based bonus (from your class) and an attribute based bonus (from Strength). Your ability to swing your sword is a combination of Skill and Strength. But you would never say that you can apply your Weapon Skill Bonus to Strength checks to open doors!

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

I'm ok with passive influence of Constitution, in clear DCs based on Constitution, but not for active attacks based on it.

A warlock or Sorcerer imposing a Constitution based DC can be justified by the ability to channel more power, but I don't see how to justify making active Constitution attacks.

In 4th edition, things were different as the same resolution system was used for active and passive effects.
Probably the best way to draw the aggression out of con is to rely on things that are actually harmful to the user in some way. Blood magic is a nice example of this and I guess a fighter sort of analog would be someone who's particularly reckless. Maybe even a barbarian.
"So be it! Let my life fuel the spell that ends his!" —Tellah

"Cast from HP" class?

RIP Tellah.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Barbarian certainly comes to mind.. instinct being generally associated with health I like and seems an active element of CON.

Con being only seen as a passive thing I think is problematic. I want all attributes to be broadly valuable.(not just deeply) if that makes any sense.

  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

In prior edition, CON determined the DC for breath attacks. This made CON important for dragons, dragon disciples, dragon shaman, and dragonfire adepts. It was rationalize as healthier creatures produce more of their breath substance and it was more potent.
Some of that rational was used to justify it for warlocks as the 20 Con warlock blasts 1d6+5 units of hellfire to the 12 Con warlocks 1d6+1 units of starbeams.

There is also an opening to allow for a breath attack spam character.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Wasn't there a thread that talked about making the monk's ki run off of constitution? The idea was that ki is based on breath, and constitution is the natural ability score for a character's breath.



I brought that up... Chi ... means life-force
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

I definitely understand your reasoning for equating Con to luck (via hp), but i wonder if it's not based on false logic?

When you level, you gain 1dX + ConMod. So which of these things are physical stamina and which are luck?


in 4e CON was the base of hit points.. instead of a bonus every level.. but in general Why is the fighter luckier? having the higher dice item... heroic luck makes more sense to be the same across board.

You can ummm role it variously.

Instinct and Luck in action look an aweful lot alike... why did you turn like that? just lucky I guess, no real "reason"

A wild attack is that lucky it hit or because you were guided by instinct?
 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

One way to model the idea of Thricefold Returns is to have agressive use of magic deplete ones "luck" ... so that eventually what you put out comes back on you.

You can call it reaping what you sew.. its a non-denominational concept.

I reflavor Blood Magic in 4e mercilessly.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

But you would never say that you can apply your Weapon Skill Bonus to Strength checks to open doors!



When I attack its hinges... I might very well...

Hey we are going back to attribute checks why not?
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Incarnum.

I am about to start a conversion of the 3rd Ed Incarnate, Totemist, and Soulborn to 5th Ed. 
"So be it! Let my life fuel the spell that ends his!" —Tellah "Cast from HP" class? RIP Tellah.

You spoony bard!

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Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!