Weapon Help

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This character is going to be the second or third defender in a party. We are extremely short on strikers so I thought I would build it with decent damage potential, thus the theme and MC Barb for the off turn attacks.

Anyway, I'm trying to decide what weapon to go for. Initially I was spending two feats for Fullblade since there is no promise of a magic weapon on the immediate horizon. But I want to be able to take on casters one-on-one so I like being able to make some saves as needed.

Other thoughts were Heavy Flail, Exe Axe, Gouge... but I am uncertain.

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====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Pe-load, level 8
Human, Paladin
Build: Avenging Paladin
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Adventurer's Scion (+2 to Religion)
Theme: Guardian
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 14, DEX 8, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 14
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 13, DEX 8, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 13
 
 
AC: 25 Fort: 24 Ref: 18 Will: 20
HP: 71 Surges: 12 Surge Value: 17
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +13, Diplomacy +11, Endurance +9, Heal +9, Intimidate +11, Religion +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +4, Bluff +6, Dungeoneering +4, History +4, Insight +6, Nature +4, Perception +6, Stealth +1, Streetwise +6, Thievery +1
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Paladin Feature: Divine Mettle
Paladin Feature: Divine Strength
Paladin Feature: Divine Challenge
Paladin Feature: Lay on Hands
Paladin Attack 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Ferocious Strike
Paladin Attack 1: Heedless Fury
Paladin Attack 1: Blood of the Mighty
Paladin Utility 2: Restore Vitality
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Paladin Attack 3: Hold Fast
Paladin Attack 5: Frenzying Smite
Paladin Utility 6: Fear Not
Barbarian Attack 7: Curtain of Steel
 
FEATS
Level 1: Mighty Challenge
Level 1: Berserker's Fury
Level 4: Novice Power
Level 6: Resilient Focus
Level 8: Skill Power
 
ITEMS
Longsword
Fullblade
Plate Armor
Magic Plate Armor +2 x1
Amulet of Protection +2 x1
Heavy flail
Magic Heavy flail +2 x1
====== End ======
Why no Fortune Spurned Smite?  If you are going with 3 defenders that likely means 3 melee or more.  Tossing out a couple free-ish OAs is pretty handy.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
What's the reason for building another pure Defender in a party extremely short on Strikers? Assuming that you must play a Defender for some reason, why not hybrid Paladin with a Striker? A Paladin|Barbarian would save you 2 feats right off the bat and therefore give you the feats to pay for Hybrid Armor and Expertise.

There are more optimal Paladin hybrids, but there wouldn't be anything wrong with that one, particularly in your party.
I agree with fortune spurned smite.  Its on my list of recommended paladin powers in my multi-defender guide

For paladins the charisma powers tend to work a bit better in multidefender parties, partly because you can load up on charisma immediate attacks that trigger when an ally get hits even when you haven't marked that enemy.
What's the reason for building another pure Defender in a party extremely short on Strikers?

This. If it's an existing character, ask if you can rewrite it as a striker. Nobody likes drawn-out battles of attrition.
Multidefender parties can work well by late heroic, but you need to pick the right builds and do things like load up on ways to punish unmarked enemies with immediates.  Things like dimensional vortex, lightning rush, guardian's pounce, and price of cowardess.
Oh I don't doubt it, and I love the guide. But he sounds like he wants something that gets to the back and takes out artillery/controllers by himself. I think a striker is generally going to do that better.
And in that case a Swordmage/Barbarian or a Swordmage/Warlock would seem a better fit.
So... I appreciate the responses and all, but one thing I find CharOp does is to ignore the main question on focus on telling a player a myriad of other things to do.

The build is a Human Paladin. I like the build. The question is what weapon would most help him and is it worth two feats to try and pick up a superior weapon or should I use that extra feat for something else?
Check out Litigation's handbook, specifically the Inexhaustable Dragon Sovereign build; I know it's Dragonborn, but you might be able to pull some ideas from it.
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So... I appreciate the responses and all, but one thing I find CharOp does is to ignore the main question on focus on telling a player a myriad of other things to do.

The build is a Human Paladin. I like the build. The question is what weapon would most help him and is it worth two feats to try and pick up a superior weapon or should I use that extra feat for something else?



If you don't want to hear things about group composition, don't post information about group composition...

I think one of the things in this case that is going to happen is you're going to find out that your build is unfun for the table as a whole, because your party doesn't need yet another Defender and your marks won't stack. This will likely manifest itself in the form of very grindy combats that seem to go on forever and the Defenders having trouble marking as many targets as they ought to mark.

As such, I'd go for things that boost damage the most and the most consistently(as you're going to have long combats). Ardent Vow+good Wis, Battle Awareness for extra MBA against a target marked by someone else, Expertise to ensure hitting. +1 damage and high crit is a very narrow feat compared to some other choices.
As your build stands, I'd say just stick with longsword or rapier and shield. Paladins don't need superior weapons, unless you get racial support. And shield is not worth giving up for +1 damage. Feats are probably better spent elsewhere.

If you would consider changing around some stats, you might make a Gouge work. Something like 16/13/14/8/14/10, and pumping Str/Dex at heroic Str/Wis from there on, you'd get better initiative, be able to pick up Battle Awareness, power swap for Rain of Blows for a triple hitter with Gouge, and eventually get access to surprising charge at paragon.

Feats would be something like

1. Gouge
1. Spear Expertise
2. Battle Awareness
4. Novice Power
and whatever else you want from there.

You'd also get a couple uses of LoH. This arrangement will also give you better defenses overall.

But if you like your build and aren't changing anything other than weapon, it's of minimal consequence really. Your reflex is seriously in the gutter, and if you want to go one on one against caster types, that might be an issue, you may want to at least use a shield.
If you are going to play that many defenders, why not just have each of them play by themselves?  It sounds like a boring table IMO.  Ordinarily I wouldn't make this suggestion, but how about a human blackguard with the marking at-will?  You pick up a monster if needed, and can at least contribute a little more damage than straight [W].  Blackguards have always been fallen paladins, so it keeps the theme (sort of).
Having 2 or 3 defenders in a party is not the best idea. If you seriously want to play a defender for some reason, just play a Son of Mercy fighter with a Gouge, frost package, charge kit, WSG, Headsman's Chop, and be sure to pick up Rain of Blows. You can do better than most medium/low optimized strikers with that set up.

Even paladins that are optimized for damage are going to lag way behind fighters once Rain of Blows is available.
So... I appreciate the responses and all, but one thing I find CharOp does is to ignore the main question on focus on telling a player a myriad of other things to do.

The build is a Human Paladin. I like the build. The question is what weapon would most help him and is it worth two feats to try and pick up a superior weapon or should I use that extra feat for something else?


Stop being so petulant. Given you know CharOps standard responses, your OP is intentionally vague about anything that would lead to the answers you apparently want (which are still unclear, even with this post). This is precisely the sort of behavior that makes us CharOppers become rude an elitist. If you don't want character creation advice, don't post a terrible character and talk about various options without expecting to have better options offered to you.

To be more general: If you don't want responses of a specific kind to a build, know you're normally going to get those responses, leave out any indication that you don't want those responses, and then post a snippy reply when you get those responses, you are nothing more than a Troll
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
To answer the question I think you're asking, no I wouldn't burn two feats for a Fullblade. It's paying a lot for not so much in return.

It might help to say why you're unwilling to change class, because that's clearly the consensus solution here. If you went gouge and charged all the time, it would play pretty much exactly the same as any other charger (but for less damage), so I'm not clear on what you're unwilling to let go.
I may be missing something, but why do you keep saying you need two feats for fullblade proficiency? All you need is Superior Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)...
So most defenders have knock prone ish attacks, why not pick up a superior axe or hammer? Brutal 1 is an easy way to boost damage.

You say you wanna play Paladin, good for you Palis are great. Do you want to play human? If you are worried about damage playing a different race might help you. 

One daily power that Paladins can choose is Blood of the Mighty. Its reliable, 4 weapon damage, and you shouldn't be worried about taking 5 damage anyway. Don't give up your shield, you will regret it. Craghammer is one handed, and brutal 2.

If regret is something you enjoy, look up Mighty Crusader Experties. Weapons wise, you might look into reach weapons, if your buddies are the up close and presonal types. Halberd is nice, gives you axe and polearm options. Spiked chain, mordenkrad, and fullblade are crowd favorites though they don't have reach.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />You say you wanna play Paladin, good for you Palis are great.


No, they're not. Aside from a single PP which is better used by a Hybrid, they are tied for the worst class in terms of multi-attacking (ie. 0 powers), they lack reasonable pre-epic CritOp, they're mediocre chargers at best, and their self buffing is also poor. Every other Divine, and every Arcane, Martial, and Primal class (possibly Psionic, not sure what Psions have in terms of single target damage capacity) is a superior striker. Paladins are also the weakest Defenders (Ok, Cavalier), particularly in Heroic. They're also rediculously band-aided to fix their Marking issue, which unfortunately means taking non-marking encounter powers is going to make you devastatingly worse as a Defender.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />You say you wanna play Paladin, good for you Palis are great.


No, they're not. Aside from a single PP which is better used by a Hybrid, they are tied for the worst class in terms of multi-attacking (ie. 0 powers), they lack reasonable pre-epic CritOp, they're mediocre chargers at best, and their self buffing is also poor. Every other Divine, and every Arcane, Martial, and Primal class (possibly Psionic, not sure what Psions have in terms of single target damage capacity) is a superior striker. Paladins are also the weakest Defenders (Ok, Cavalier), particularly in Heroic. They're also rediculously band-aided to fix their Marking issue, which unfortunately means taking non-marking encounter powers is going to make you devastatingly worse as a Defender.



So many things wrong in one post, so little time...
So at my table we play a pretty hardcore game, all of it based on Fourthcore. It is of important note to say that most of the challenge we face comes out of combat. In our current campaign we are playing in a set world with static level monsters. Our characters will level, but the enemies never will.

However, much pc death is expected and as such we have a random roll chart for reincarnation. I started as a fighter, then a bladesinger, am currently an eladrin cleric, and ahould he die, will be bringing the human paladin to the table.

That part of my build is non-negotiable. It's a house rule I dont expect many people to like or enjoy, so I didnt bring it up.

Also currently at the table we have a half elf pally, an elven hunter, a half orc warlock, a warforged wizard, a tiefling swordmage, and my eladrin cleric.

As the person now playng the Wizard was playng an Ardent, I was less concerned with healing, but if my Cleric dies we could be in trouble so I may look to make a more leadery paladin if possible. 
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />You say you wanna play Paladin, good for you Palis are great.


No, they're not. Aside from a single PP which is better used by a Hybrid, they are tied for the worst class in terms of multi-attacking (ie. 0 powers), they lack reasonable pre-epic CritOp, they're mediocre chargers at best, and their self buffing is also poor. Every other Divine, and every Arcane, Martial, and Primal class (possibly Psionic, not sure what Psions have in terms of single target damage capacity) is a superior striker. Paladins are also the weakest Defenders (Ok, Cavalier), particularly in Heroic. They're also rediculously band-aided to fix their Marking issue, which unfortunately means taking non-marking encounter powers is going to make you devastatingly worse as a Defender.



So many things wrong in one post, so little time...



His criticisms are accurate. Paladins make very poor second strikers compared to other defenders. Only at very low levels do Straladins compete for damage. Fighters can be built to meet Striker benchmarks, Battleminds can strike very well once they get Brutal Barrage, and Wardens even get a multi-attack (Wildblood Frenzy) at level 1.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />You say you wanna play Paladin, good for you Palis are great.


No, they're not. Aside from a single PP which is better used by a Hybrid, they are tied for the worst class in terms of multi-attacking (ie. 0 powers), they lack reasonable pre-epic CritOp, they're mediocre chargers at best, and their self buffing is also poor. Every other Divine, and every Arcane, Martial, and Primal class (possibly Psionic, not sure what Psions have in terms of single target damage capacity) is a superior striker. Paladins are also the weakest Defenders (Ok, Cavalier), particularly in Heroic. They're also rediculously band-aided to fix their Marking issue, which unfortunately means taking non-marking encounter powers is going to make you devastatingly worse as a Defender.



So many things wrong in one post, so little time...



No, thats pretty spot on.  I would honestly put Berserkers also below them in the defender list but in heroic Berserkers are pretty decent.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Oh right Berserkers, sorry, I plum forgot they exist actually. An interesting sub-class that unfortunately is trying to be too much like a MMO off-tank which doesn't work well enough in this game.

And thank you borhdumb for the explanation. It might be worth spending the feats to effectively PMC into Cleric or Warlord (but, you know, picking a real PP) in that case. In the short term, you can pick up a Mark-Independent IA in the form of Mighty Hew or Powerful Warning, a daily buff like Augment of War or Inspire Fervor/Hallowed Advance or Staggering Spin (insert other Warlord Dailies like Create a Target) if your allies have decent Basics, and of course Instant Planning/Draw their Eyes/(some Warlord thing) or Resurgent Strength as utilities. If you feel that more healing is needed those choices can easily be stuff like Stand the Fallen, Reverent Mantle, etc. The main upside to Cleric is that you can get BCL out of the deal and stick with Defender AC with a 2-hander.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
So many things wrong in one post, so little time...

He could have said the same thing about your post. He was actually very generous.

1. Brutal 1 is not a good way to increase damage. It may very well be the worst way.

2. Switching his race isn't going to make him a striker.

3. Similarly, one 4[W] daily does not a striker make.

4. Mighty Crusader's Expertise is worthless to this build as it won't take any implement attacks.

5. Spiked chain does have reach when you take the MC feat, which everyone does because why not just use a rapier otherwise.

I'm a little less critical of paladins as a whole though. It's pretty easy to make a horrible Warden or Battlemind, and there's always Ensnaring Swordmage to laugh at. At lower op levels paladin is fairly solid, and at high op at least they have the great Hospitaler. But I have to agree with Zathris that other defenders can generally be optimized with more impressive results.
Every other Divine, and every Arcane, Martial, and Primal class (possibly Psionic, not sure what Psions have in terms of single target damage capacity) is a superior striker.


Just popping in to show you Brilliant Thought. Area burst 1 radiant double attack that blinds. That is all.
2. Switching his race isn't going to make him a striker.



The Genasi disagrees.

Defender-wise, the Paladin starts bad, gets average in paragon, and then becomes the only defender that really keeps deserving the label in epic. This isn't to say other defenders aren't good characters in epic, but they usually shift to a controller- or striker-primary with their original role as something of an afterthought.



With swordmage being somewhat iffy pre-mm3 damage values.  A fighter turns into a striker/controller, and battlemind just turns into a striker in epic.
Swordmage just turns into a Controller/Striker with the ability to do 2 offturn "negate attack and deal damage" for 3 rounds in a row (yay recharges) on top of the "crapload of OAs" PP.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
So at my table we play a pretty hardcore game, all of it based on Fourthcore. It is of important note to say that most of the challenge we face comes out of combat. In our current campaign we are playing in a set world with static level monsters. Our characters will level, but the enemies never will.

However, much pc death is expected and as such we have a random roll chart for reincarnation. I started as a fighter, then a bladesinger, am currently an eladrin cleric, and ahould he die, will be bringing the human paladin to the table.

That part of my build is non-negotiable. It's a house rule I dont expect many people to like or enjoy, so I didnt bring it up.

Also currently at the table we have a half elf pally, an elven hunter, a half orc warlock, a warforged wizard, a tiefling swordmage, and my eladrin cleric.

As the person now playng the Wizard was playng an Ardent, I was less concerned with healing, but if my Cleric dies we could be in trouble so I may look to make a more leadery paladin if possible. 



Don't die. Yes, you can do some of healing and support as a pally, but honestly it would be wise to stay alive.
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