Gathering Opinions: The Replacements (sans Keanu Reeves)

60 posts / 0 new
Last post
What's this? Another Gathering Opinions, so soon after the previous one? YES! I had a brainwave yesterday morning, and while I'm still writing it up for posting in RT&T, I figured I'd make a post here so people in General could join in the fun, especially after that exchange in the last thread about less painfully obscure questions.

So, diving in to the slightly modified form text as always: Once again, I'm trying to gather players' intuitive answers to interesting rules questions in order to better inform my own opinions about the rules for my own nefarious purposes. (Muahahahahaha!)

For those of you who may not have participated in one of these threads before, and even for those who have, I would please like to remind everyone that this is not a test of your rules knowledge; there's no right or wrong answers here--it's a survey of how players intuitively believe the rules should work, not a test to see if they know how they actually do.

So how do you participate in this thread? Here's how you should do it:
  • Do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just say what you intuitively feel that the answer "should" be. What instinctively feels "right" to you?
  • Don't look at anyone else's answers or ask anyone else for their opinion.
  • When you answer, do so within an sblock or spoiler tag so that your answer is hidden from casual view and you won't unduly influence others before they give their own answers.
  • Please also tell me how informed your answer is--are you making an informed guess? How informed? Or are just straight-up guessing based on intuition?


Is that clear to everyone? Good. Here we go! This time we have a series of questions. Please answer each question in turn before opening up the sblock and looking at the next one--that bit's important.

You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?



Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Show
I'm pretty confident in my understanding of the rules around this situation. It's a informed answer of someone that knows the text and working of this section in the Comprehensive Rules. 


Both abilities are replacement effects, trying to affect the same event: Lightning Bolt dealing damage to the opponent. As far as I can tell, neither looks like some special case that would have priority - that's the something I'd normally check the rules for.


So, in this case, the player affected by the event the effects want to change - the opponent that's going to receive the damage - chooses in which order the effects apply. The options are applying the Swath's effect first, then the Servant's one (3+2=5, 5*2=10); or Servant's first, then Swath's (3*2=6, 6+2=8).


That player will most likely choose to receive 8 damage. 10 is also an option.



EDIT: Sorry, didn't read the other questions. I did not look at the rules before including them:


Show
Case2: Bandage has a prevention effect; it applies just like replacement effects. The best option for the opponent is to choose to apply Bandage's effect first, then Servant's, then Swath's; the damage will be 3-1=2, 2*2=4, 4+2=6.


Case 3: again, a prevention effect. Like before, there are multiple possible orders to apply the effect; Hallow's one works best as the last one. The opponent's best choice is to have Swath's effect first, then Servant's, then Hallow's; the damage would be 3+2=5, 5*2=10, then this 10 damage is prevented and the opponent gains 10 life



Case 4: Weird. Like in all cases above, there are multiple possible orders to apply the effects; the best one appears to be Swath's, then Servant's, then Hallow's; at this point, there's no damage to be prevented, so Bandage's effect simply doesn't apply. He gains 10 life, like in Case 3.


I'm less sure about this, but I think Bandage's effect will wait to prevent more damage to the player later this turn.

[<o>]


You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?



Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.


Answer

Hey, you know me well enough by now I'm sure.
Also, this seems incredibly similar to an earlier one, but iunno.
However, there's one thing I can't actually remember, but I think it's the affected player that controls the replacement effect, which indicates that everything in the game can be given an ownership, which might very well be true. Either way:

1: Opponent choses to either take 2*(3+2) or 2+2*3 damage. Probably the latter.
2: Afaik, Bandage and your stuff is taken in APNAP order, which means that bandage is applied first if it's his turn (2*(2+2) or 2+2*2 damage). If it's your turn, bandage is applied last, meaning the same as 1, but 1 less damage.
3: I'm sort of starting to wonder if damage prevention actually effects these things. Then I remembered that they are calculated as the damage is being done, and that Fire Servant and Hostility aren't bros, so your opponent gains 3 life if it's his turn, or life equal to the damage being dealt in example 1.
4: Game chooses whether to apply bandage and hallow, or fire servant and swath first, then your opponent choses how to order the two within those. So if it's his turn, he can apply Hallow first and gain 3 life, or Bandage first, and gain 3-1=2 life. If it's your turn, he must assign damage as in example 1, then he can choose to subtract 1 damage by applying bandage first, before gaining life instead of being dealt damage.

Edit: After looking at the rules, it doesn't seem like APNAP is of any relevance, except in scenarios where you, say, cast Flame Rift instead. Which explains why I couldn't find any indication of what turn it was in your post.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

I'm not good with rules, this is just a guess:

Show

1) I can choose whether it does 8 or 10 damage (I choose which effect is applied first)
2) If I choose to do 10 damage, the Bandage will prevent 1 of that damage, and the Bolt deals 9
3) Opponent only gains 3 life, because Hallow doesn't know that the damage would have been increased
4) Opponent probably still gains 3 life, because Bandage prevents 1 of the total damage that would have been dealt to a player, whereas Hallow just looks at the damage that the spell would deal alone?
Show

You choose in which order the replacement effects apply.  You could have it deal 10 damage, or 8 damage, it's up to you.
 
I hate dogs.
Show
8 or 10 damage, depending how you stack it. (Lightningbolt+2)x2 would be the best.
Bandage just reduces the damage received by 1, so they'd take 7 or 9.
Hallow alone would heal 8 or 10 as before.
Both together would heal for 7 or 9.
Why are you guys saying that
Show
the opponent gets to choose the order of your two replacement triggers?
Show

First answer : He chooses how to apply the replacement effects, so probably 8 ([3*2]+2).

Second answer : Again, he chooses the order, so probably 6 ([[3-1]*2]+2).

Third answer : Same. They'd gain 8 life (see first answer).

Fourth : They choose. They would probably choose to have Bandage apply last to gain the maximum life (why would they even cast it then?), so same as third answer.

Annnnd I probably missed something along the lines of "prevention effects apply last".

 

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".

Why are you guys saying that
Show
the opponent gets to choose the order of your two replacement triggers?

Show
because the affected player (in this case the opponent) always gets to choose the order of replacement effects affecting him or objects he controls


proud member of the 2011 community team
Why are you guys saying that
Show
the opponent gets to choose the order of your two replacement triggers?


Because

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply[...]

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

Why are you guys saying that
Show
the opponent gets to choose the order of your two replacement triggers?



Show
They DON'T trigger at all. They aren't triggered abilities. Triggers start with "when", "whenever" or "at". Replacement/Prevention effects come from static abilities (Pyromancer's Swath, Fire Servant) or were set-up by an already-resolved spell or ability (Bandage, Hallow).

Replacement effects and prevention effects change (replace) or cancel (prevent) an event at the moment it is happening; this don't use the stack at all. It's up to the player who is being affected by the event (the player receiving damage) to choose their order, regardless of who controls the effects.

[<o>]
Show
You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?

I have a vague recollection of magus of the moon/humility making lands mountains because...something. So I think the creature effect matters first. So Servant doubles bolt, and then Swath adds two. 8 damage.

All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?

You and your opponent both have replacement effects for the damage. My recollection is that damage prevention happens last. So as above, but then Bandage prevents one, so seven damage.

Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?

Hallow also prevents the damage, so it happens last. 8 life.

And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?
Ah... Doesn't order matter or something? Whichever one resolved first will take effect earlier. So Bandage, then hallow, Opponent gains seven. Hallow, then bandage, Opponent gains 8.




Check out my cube!
Show
My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
How you feel it should work is not the same as how do you think it works.
Real men hold shift. If everyone has their fingers in the pie, then someone is eating fingers.

You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?


[sblock=Here's what I got...]
I'm no rules guru, but I believe the replacement effects of Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant are applied in reverse-time-stamp order.  So if Fire Servant entered the battlefield after Pyromancer's Swath, it's ability would be applied first meaning your lightning bolt deals (3x2)+2 = 8 damage to your opponent.  If Pyromancer's Swath entered last instead, the bolt would deal (3+2)x2 = 10 damage to your opponent. 

On to the next one...
All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?


Again, let's assume Pyromancer's Swath was under your control first.  The replacement effects don't take place until damage would actually be delt.  So, you target with the bolt, Bandage prevents one of that damage, and replacement effects take place.  Then, your bolt deals (2x2)+2 = 6 damage to your opponent.

Another one? Ok...
Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?


You cast bolt, Hallow prevents the 3 damage and opponent gians 3 life.  Replacement effects never occur since all the damage from the bolt has been prevented.

last one...
And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?


If Hallow is cast in response to Bandage, Hallow prevents the 3 damage from the bolt and opponent gains 3 life.  Just as before, no replacement effects occur because you have no source that would deal damage.
If Bandage is allowed to resolve and then Hallow is cast, Hallow prevents the remaining 2 damage your opponent gains 2 life and once again no replacement effects occur.



The principle
The affected player, in this case the player targeted by Lightning Bolt, chooses which one replacement or prevention effect to apply to the upcoming event. The gamestate is then checked for replacement or prevention effects to apply to the modified event description. This continues until there are no applicable replacement or prevention effects. Then the event happens.
.

Assuming no odd cases, I am going to assume the most favourable result for the player making the choices.

Scenario 1
The Bolted player takes 8 damage by applying Fire Servant then Pyromancer's Swath.


Scenario 2
The Bolted player takes 6 damage by first applying Bandage (2 damage), then Fire Servant (4 damage) then Swath (6 damage).


Scenario 3
The Bolted player gains 10 life. He's now interested in maximising the damage the Bolt would do, because what Hallow does is dependent on what the Bolt would do at the moment the Hallow is applied.

So, first apply the Swath (5 damage) then the Fire Servant (10 damage) then Hallow (prevent 10 damage and gain 10 life.)


Scenario 4
The Bolted player takes 10 damage as Scenario 3 above. Bandage's effect is never applied. Applying it before the Hallow would reduce the amount of damage the Hallow prevents. After Hallow is applied, there is no damage to prevent.
Still blessed by Julia of Hillsdown. M:tG Rules Adviser You are Red/Blue!
You are Red/Blue!
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
Interesting results so far. I wasn't sure what kind of answers this question would get, so it's nice to see I didn't pick something way too simple.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Show
1) "Swath, Servant, Bolt"

You choose how the replacement effects are applied to the Lightning Bolt's damage event. So, it could deal 10 if you choose to replace first with Swath then with Servant, or 8 if you do the opposite. This is an informed answer having dealt way too much with replacement effects in YMTC.

2) "+ Bandage"

And now I'm forgetting how things interact with other player's prevention mechanics. *foot in moouth* What I think and feel happens is the same above, but with 1 damage prevented. I think the replacements are applied in APNAP order.

3) "+ Hallow"

Using the same APNAP reasoning as in question 2, and using the same replacement method as in question 1, the opponent would gain 8 or 10 life, your choice.

4) "+ Bandage AND Hallow"

Dammit, zammm! You'd do the setup as in question 1. If you went the 8 route, the opponent could gain 7 or 8, the latter if they apply Hallow first. If you went the 10 route, the opponent could gain 9 or 10, the latter if they apply Hallow first.

I'm VERY confident on question 1. Less so on everything that comes after.

EDIT: Apparently I'm just absolutely wrong. The correct answer doesn't FEEL right at all.
Dammit, zammm!

Is it wrong that I get a little thrill of happiness every time I get a reaction like this to one of these threads?

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Dammit, zammm!

Is it wrong that I get a little thrill of happiness every time I get a reaction like this to one of these threads?

Perfectly healthy, I'd say! I just can't believe I misremembered the applications so wrong! It doesn't feel intuitive, but I bet given enough thought it makes sense.

Maybe.

Ugh.
Rush your sig is hell of out of date, I'd say.
Show
Since you can order the operations in any order you desire, you would add 2 to the Bolt to make it 5, than double it to 10.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?


Show
they're all replacement effects, and you control the spell they affect so you control to order in which they apply. in each case you get to manipulate them to get the best possible outcome. however, note that these are not the only possibilities, just the best ones for you.

a) 10 (swath-servant)
b) 9 (swath-servant-bandage)
c) 3 (hallow-others don't apply)
d) 2 (bandage-hallow-others don't apply)

I may however be misremembering who gets to choose in this case. it may be that since they are the player affected by the spell they get to pick, in which case it's 8, 6, 10, 10. but I think you do because they all modify your bolt.


 

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

 

why are you here when NGA exists and is just better

Why are you guys saying that
Show
the opponent gets to choose the order of your two replacement triggers?


Because

616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply[...]




Show
Why is the opponent considered the affected player or object, and not the Lightning Bolt?
Show
Why is the opponent considered the affected player or object, and not the Lightning Bolt?

Show
because the player is the one being dealt damage

the player is affected, the bolt is the affector ;)
proud member of the 2011 community team
Show
You can either have your opponent take 8 or 10 as you choose what order to use the replacement effects. If you double first, then add 2 you get 8, If you add 2 first, then double you get 10.
Assuming the rules are the same from the last time you asked a rules question involving multiple replacement effects.


Part 2
Show
7 or 9 depending on your choices in part 1, gut feeling is you still get to use your replacement effects, then 1 of the damage will be prevented.
Show
8 or 10 depending on your choices in Part 1, I feel very unsure about this one, seeing it just be 3 would not shock me.

Show
7 or 9 depending on your choices in Part 1, again, I could see this being 2.


Show
having gone back and looked, I'm totally wrong anyway because I already forgot what I learned last time about the effected player choosing what order to apply replacement effects.
The end is always nigh.
Show
This likely stems from fundamental misunderstanding, but discussion is the best part of these threads, so here it goes.

Reading over the rules, they say that the affected player decides how all these replacements affect them. And that makes some sense, at least from a rules perspective. But in gameplay, it feels like the controller of each replacement effect should have a say on how it applies. That's what we're used to: controlling how our options affect things. This felt organically like the same type of application: of course I'd choose how Swath and Servant affect the damage my Bolt is dealing. It mirrors everything else I know about the game.

There may be great reasons it can't work this way that I'm overlooking (and I'd appreciate some of the better theory-crafting rules gurus pointing them out). But it doesn't have the feel I expected. And note that I DEFINITELY knew how this rule worked at one point, having to look it up a number of times. That my memory can't fold onto it gives some credence to the way I feel how it working.
Show

In the first scenario, they choose how to order the replacement effects. They can take 10 or 8 damage.
In the second scenario, they choose the order. They can be dealt 6, 7, 8, or 9 damage. 
They can apply hallow's effect at any time in the process. They can gain 3, 5, 6, 8, or 10 life. 
They can apply hallow's effect at any time in the process. They can gain 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10 life. 
 

Sig
Disclaimers
My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
# Card Blind Hall of Fame
3CB
3CB #1 (1/30/11): Won by silasw, with Mishra's Factory, Orzhov Basilica, Vindicate. 3CB #2 (2/13/11): Won by Vektor480, with Mishra's Workshop, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs 3CB #3(2/20/11): Joint win between defuse, with Saprazzan Skerry, Scalding Tongs, Energy Field; and Mown, with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Inkmoth Nexus, Sheltered Valley 3CB #4(3/13/11): Won by Mown, with Keldon Megaliths, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Boros Garrison 3CB #5(3/20/11): Won by silasw, with Black Lotus, Channel, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
5CB
5CB 1 (3/6/11): Won by Maraxus-of-Keld, with Tropical Island, Thallid, Nether Spirit, Daze, Foil
quotes
56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
Ego
58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

Show
Lightning Bolt with both Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant would either deal x2 damage or 3 + 2 due to being unable to replace an ability/effect twice. In most cases of course, you'd deal double. My guess of course is based upon the rules about replacement effects (although I am honest about not looking it up =D). After opponent resolves Bandage, your bolt will deal 5 damage because of simple math being 3 x 2 - 1 = 5 duh. Question 3 : They gain 6 life because of 3 x 2 = 6 and then 6 damage is prevented. Question 4 : now this is complicated with all sorts of different scenarios, your bolt (6 damage) and the opponent responds with Bandage . Here's a different scenario option, what if they hold priority and also cast the other preventer. That would end up resolving, and then Bandage resolves then Lightning Bolt resolves (attempting) to deal 6. Then the prevention effects come in either preventing all of it (and healing it) or preventing one, dealing 5. I made tese guesses based off of my off-hand knowledge of replacement affects, which abound everywhere here.    
Decks I run
Show
I currently run a deck for Standard, Modern, Commander and Legacy. For standard, I have a typical, horribly budget Rakdos Deck Wins. For Modern, I have a B/G/U/W Draw-go Reanimator featuring my favorite creature, Wurmcoil Engine. For Legacy, I'm trying too hard to break Pyromancer Ascension. I also run a Naya Zoo with all the oldies. For Commander/EDH, I'm running The Mimeoplasm. A little morals thing about me, I like winning through combos, but not infinitely. However quiet, I am a Christian, so feel free to tell me you are too, it's always a relief.
How to be saved?
Show
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved and your house. Book of Acts 16:31
Cheers!
Show
This likely stems from fundamental misunderstanding, but discussion is the best part of these threads, so here it goes.

Reading over the rules, they say that the affected player decides how all these replacements affect them. And that makes some sense, at least from a rules perspective. But in gameplay, it feels like the controller of each replacement effect should have a say on how it applies. That's what we're used to: controlling how our options affect things. This felt organically like the same type of application: of course I'd choose how Swath and Servant affect the damage my Bolt is dealing. It mirrors everything else I know about the game.

There may be great reasons it can't work this way that I'm overlooking (and I'd appreciate some of the better theory-crafting rules gurus pointing them out). But it doesn't have the feel I expected. And note that I DEFINITELY knew how this rule worked at one point, having to look it up a number of times. That my memory can't fold onto it gives some credence to the way I feel how it working.



Show

I think part of the idea here is to evaluate how easily this non-intuitive situation tricks people. Not even from a forum perspective, but also from a development perspective, any sort of  data like this that can be gathered might be a drop in the bucket, but it'd still be counting towards something. If the M10 rules changes were any proof, WotC is always looking to change and remove certain rules that make the game cumbersome.

That and Zammm likes to trick people. Which is fun to read- or walk into occasionally.
IMAGE(http://i998.photobucket.com/albums/af108/acatan/sigwynzermancopy.png) Signature by IMAGE(http://www.poke-amph.com/heartgoldsoulsilver/sprites/258.png)
Show

Ah, replacement effects.
The problem here is that you have two cards that look and feel like they should be working together in an optimal manner, but I'm pretty sure they don't, as these things like to use timestamps.

What SHOULD Happen
Lightning Bolt has 2 added by the Swath, and then gets doubled by the Servant. 10 damage.

What ACTUALLY Happens
I'm pretty sure replacement effects go off in order of timestamp, newest first. Assuming the Servant was cast after the Swath (given he's listed second), Bolt does 8 damage (it gets doubled by the Servant, and then has 2 added by the Swath).

Same with Bandage vs. Hallow. I'm fairly sure whichever is cast second will win the battle. I assume it's Hallow.
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
Show
This likely stems from fundamental misunderstanding, but discussion is the best part of these threads, so here it goes.

Reading over the rules, they say that the affected player decides how all these replacements affect them. And that makes some sense, at least from a rules perspective. But in gameplay, it feels like the controller of each replacement effect should have a say on how it applies. That's what we're used to: controlling how our options affect things. This felt organically like the same type of application: of course I'd choose how Swath and Servant affect the damage my Bolt is dealing. It mirrors everything else I know about the game.

There may be great reasons it can't work this way that I'm overlooking (and I'd appreciate some of the better theory-crafting rules gurus pointing them out). But it doesn't have the feel I expected. And note that I DEFINITELY knew how this rule worked at one point, having to look it up a number of times. That my memory can't fold onto it gives some credence to the way I feel how it working.



Show
I think the "great reason" it works the way it does is what happens when there are two different controllers for the effects.

It's even in zammmmmmmmmmmmm's question, if the one getting bolted plays a bandage, how you do work it out.  The intuitive way many people say with just the bolt is in a way that the bolt is as best as it can be.  However, when you throw the bandage in there too...why does the bolt player get the best end of the deal?  What method are you going to use to choose who get's the best effect?  It's there were any intuitive thinking breaks down.  Obviously the bolted player thinks that their bandage should prevent the most possible damage, but the bolt-er will think that it deals the most possible damage.  I think in this situation, the intuitive answer comes down to which player you imagine yourself as.  If you frequently play burn, you are going to favor what is best for the bolter, but if you are someone who plays control/lifegain/etc, you'll be put into the bolted person's shoes and pick an answer that is best for that player.

So, SOME kind of metric is needed.  Timestamp isn't very good, APNAP isn't so hot either (IMO).  I think that the affected player choosing is just the cleanest way to have it happen.  If you simplify it to where only a single person is deciding all outcomes, then you don't have to worry about a way to priorities effects controlled by different players, vastly simplfying the thing.



Switching gears, I find it interetsing that so many people knew the active player chooses.  I would guess that it has more to do with this being a forum (for some reason).  That's the kind of thing that feels like it should be esoteric knowledge.

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
Show
Switching gears, I find it interetsing that so many people knew the active player chooses.  I would guess that it has more to do with this being a forum (for some reason).  That's the kind of thing that feels like it should be esoteric knowledge.

Show
affected, not active
proud member of the 2011 community team


You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?

Now that you've answered that...
And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?



Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.


Show


2 replacement effects on the same lightning bolt. I think the caster would choose which replacement applies first but I'm probably not correct. Anyway I'll just say that the caster would choose to add the 2 damage from pyromancer's swath before doubling it with the elemental. Therefore it would be 10 damage to the opponent.

Opponent casts bandage. If I'm wrong on part 1 I'm probably wrong here too but since lightning bolt is dealing 2 damage to the opponent this time it gets replaced by swath for 4 and doubled by flame servant for 8.

On the scenerio where the opponent casts hallow I am going to say they gain 3 life since the lightning bolt will not deal any damage the replacement effects don't apply

Last scenerio two prevent damage effects. Give them a choice between which damage prevention effect applies first and they can choose between 2 and 3 life gained.

I feel terrible now, I should just stop posting in these threads.



Don't be too smart to have fun
I feel terrible now, I should just stop posting in these threads.

On the contrary--your posts are exactly the kind I most want to see in these threads.

It's all very well for rules goobs like myself and the others who practically live in RQ&A and breathe the CompRules to debate amongst ourselves how intuitive the rules are, or how having them work in way X is obviously much easier for players to understand than way Y, but the very fact that we are rules goobs mean that in many cases we don't know what's more intuitive or understandable. We're so familiar with the rules as they currently exist that we can't set aside that knowledge to approach the rules from the perspective of someone who doesn't know them.

If we as goobs want to figure out ways of making the rules more intuitive, the only way to figure out what we should be aiming for is to ask the people who the changes are supposed to help: those without in-depth knowledge of the rules in question. That's the entire point of these threads. Not posting in these threads because you don't know the relevant rules misses the point entirely. The less you know, the better!

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I feel terrible now, I should just stop posting in these threads.

On the contrary--your posts are exactly the kind I most want to see in these threads.

It's all very well for rules goobs like myself and the others who practically live in RQ&A and breathe the CompRules to debate amongst ourselves how intuitive the rules are, or how having them work in way X is obviously much easier for players to understand than way Y, but the very fact that we are rules goobs mean that in many cases we don't know what's more intuitive or understandable. We're so familiar with the rules as they currently exist that we can't set aside that knowledge to approach the rules from the perspective of someone who doesn't know them.

If we as goobs want to figure out ways of making the rules more intuitive, the only way to figure out what we should be aiming for is to ask the people who the changes are supposed to help: those without in-depth knowledge of the rules in question. That's the entire point of these threads. Not posting in these threads because you don't know the relevant rules misses the point entirely. The less you know, the better!



Well part of the issue for me is that I used to be very good with the rules. I was a rules advisor and Tournament Organizer in 2010 but I moved and eventually stopped playing and only came back to the forums a few months ago.

I've never been a rules guru the way that the judges are, but you are clearly showing me how much I've forgotten (or that I never learned).

Regardless I think these are fun and will continue to embarass myself in an effort to get one right eventually.
Don't be too smart to have fun
I feel like I know the rules a bit too well to give you meaningful insight into what my intuition would have originally suggested had I seen this question as a newer player.
Show
You know what, scratch my thought about whether I know the rules good enough for this one.  It's 2 AM and I very clearly can't decide whether the bolt is being affected or the player is.  Only one person should be making all of these choices, you or them, and I apparently didn't even bother catching myself while I was writing all this.

You control Pyromancer's Swath and Fire Servant, and cast Lightning Bolt on your opponent. How much damage does your opponent take, and why?
Depends on how you order the replacement effects.  Ideally, 10 damage.  If you're bad at ordering things, 8 damage.  Were I a newer player, I might have said it should depend on the timestamp of the sources of the replacement effect.

All right, now take the same situation, but this time your opponent casts Bandage (targeting themselves) in response to your Bolt. Now how much damage do they take, and why?
Depends on who's the active player (or higher in the turn order if no one is).  If you are, it will deal 9 or 7 damage.  If they are, it will deal 8 or 6 damage.

Next, take the same situation, only instead of casting Bandage, your opponent casts Hallow on your Bolt. How much life do they gain, and why?
Depends on who's the active player, as above.  If you are, they will gain 10 or 8 life.  If they are, they will gain 3 life (damage that would be zero isn't dealt, so Pyromancer's Swath should no longer be able to add two to a source from which all of its damage is already prevented; it's no longer an applicable replacement effect).

And finally, let's say your opponent cast both Bandage and Hallow (for some reason). Now how much life do they gain, and why?
Again, it depends.  They could gain anywhere from 7-10 life if they you are the active player.  They could gain 2 or 3 life if they are.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
Show
This likely stems from fundamental misunderstanding, but discussion is the best part of these threads, so here it goes.

Reading over the rules, they say that the affected player decides how all these replacements affect them. And that makes some sense, at least from a rules perspective. But in gameplay, it feels like the controller of each replacement effect should have a say on how it applies. That's what we're used to: controlling how our options affect things. This felt organically like the same type of application: of course I'd choose how Swath and Servant affect the damage my Bolt is dealing. It mirrors everything else I know about the game.

There may be great reasons it can't work this way that I'm overlooking (and I'd appreciate some of the better theory-crafting rules gurus pointing them out). But it doesn't have the feel I expected. And note that I DEFINITELY knew how this rule worked at one point, having to look it up a number of times. That my memory can't fold onto it gives some credence to the way I feel how it working.

Show
I think the "great reason" it works the way it does is what happens when there are two different controllers for the effects.

It's even in zammmmmmmmmmmmm's question, if the one getting bolted plays a bandage, how you do work it out.  The intuitive way many people say with just the bolt is in a way that the bolt is as best as it can be.  However, when you throw the bandage in there too...why does the bolt player get the best end of the deal?  What method are you going to use to choose who get's the best effect?  It's there were any intuitive thinking breaks down.  Obviously the bolted player thinks that their bandage should prevent the most possible damage, but the bolt-er will think that it deals the most possible damage.  I think in this situation, the intuitive answer comes down to which player you imagine yourself as.  If you frequently play burn, you are going to favor what is best for the bolter, but if you are someone who plays control/lifegain/etc, you'll be put into the bolted person's shoes and pick an answer that is best for that player.

So, SOME kind of metric is needed.  Timestamp isn't very good, APNAP isn't so hot either (IMO).  I think that the affected player choosing is just the cleanest way to have it happen.  If you simplify it to where only a single person is deciding all outcomes, then you don't have to worry about a way to priorities effects controlled by different players, vastly simplfying the thing.



Switching gears, I find it interetsing that so many people knew the active player chooses.  I would guess that it has more to do with this being a forum (for some reason).  That's the kind of thing that feels like it should be esoteric knowledge.

Show
APNAP is EXACTLY how it feels most organic to me, as I showed when answering the question. You choose how your replacements apply, they choose how their replacements apply, add it up and find out what happens.

I'm not saying this would be a better system for the game. What I'm saying is that it feels more natural to me. That said, you're right that I'm very stuck in the mindset of the Lightning Bolt player rather than the Bandage player.


Show
Switching gears, I find it interetsing that so many people knew the active player chooses.  I would guess that it has more to do with this being a forum (for some reason).  That's the kind of thing that feels like it should be esoteric knowledge.

Show
affected, not active

Yeah, that was 100% a typo.....now I look dum

My forever unfinished blog of the 2010 MTGO Community Cup: if you're ever bored...
So, here's a couple thoughts for you zammm.

1) Have a handful of shots of some sort of inebriating liquid, providing you are of legal age in the country you reside, then ask yourself the same question and see what you come up with.

2) Any chance we could convince the powers that be to add more complex examples such as the ones you use for these threads directly into the CR?  Kind of like a "Simple Example: Blah," "Complex Example: Blahdiddity Blah."

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
Further to the point, zammm, do you feel the feedback here has been of a natural enough nature and varied enough to use toward suggested rules clean-up? Moreso, since this is a project you've worked on for a while, have any findings in these threads been used to request rules alterations?
there was a reversal on shortcuts for Cavern of Souls
I can't remember if that had such a thread

and I think changing how copy effects are handled is also in the works (they currently always apply first, before other replacement effects)
proud member of the 2011 community team