3.5: Quick (probably stupid) question about levels

28 posts / 0 new
Last post
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 



As DM, I give the NPC's whatever I please, as far as equipment, as long as I'm fairly sure it's a bigger challenge than is fair against my players, and as long as I'm sure that the NPC's are going to usually escape, not having that equipment fall into the character's hands very often.  But my games are a little different than the style of the rulebooks, too, and, I'm more of a story writer than a dungeon master.  Also, our characters usually have game-breaking starting ability scores, rolled using an insane dice rolling system, since so often our games have only 2 or 3 players attending, and thus those characters have to be truly heroic in nature, if not gestalt or anything.

Another thing is, almost all of our player characters are all straight classed humans.  A couple of elves.  So, not alot of experience here;  That said though, I'm pretty much 100% positive that I've read that in both cases, you are absolutely correct.  Your NPC is 12th, with 12th equipment and 15th rank caps for class skills (and race skills that are considered class skills).  Furthermore, if that NPC race comes with a Level Adjusmtent (LA), such as an ogre having a +2, that 4HD ogre with 8 class levels actually gets equipment as would a 14th level NPC.

Have fun!
Neue
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 

Short version: it's a 12th-level character, with all that entails.

Longer, more involved version (though still more condensed than Neue's  ): Effective Character Level (ECL) uses this formula:  Class levels + Racial HD + Level Adjustment (LA) = ECL
A character's ECL determines things like gear and XP, but only Hit Dice - both from race and classes - matter for skill points.  To go back to Neue's Ogre (4 racial HD, +2 LA) example, with 8 class levels, it would be a 14th level character in terms of gear & XP, but it would still only have 15 max skilll ranks due to its 12 HD. 
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Thank you both very much for the help!
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 


Here it will depend on the NPCs actual CR and NOT on how many racial HD it has.  To put it another way you should base an NPCs equipment (value found on table 4-23 pg 127 of the DMG) on its total CHALLENGE RATING which may not care too much about how many racial HD it has.  If you go back to pg 112 where it talks about adjustment you'd make for kind/species you'll see that the modifier is based on the creature's listed CR which is completely different from its LA/ECL.  NPC play by different rules then PCs when it comes to monsterous species.

To answer it another way I DON'T KNOW.  This is because I don't have enough information to know what those four racial levels are giving you.

Oh, to answer the edit question your maximum skill ranks in a class skill is HD+3 and in that case CR and ECL are completely irrelevant leaving you with a 15 rank maximum for this character.

@draco1119:  Note that this was equipment for an NPC and not a PC.  That means we use the rules for challenge rating instead looking at LA and racial HD to figure out Effective Character Level.  

I hope the OP comes back because the  information given was wrong for the stated situation although it would be correct for a similar question.



Derp. I plead ignorance; I don't DM, and I'm currently afb. I should have realized that gear was based on CR, not ECL, as that would soon become a fubar of epic proportions.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oh then. The NPC is a Yuan-Ti Pureblood 8th-level Ranger. Yuan-Ti Pureblood = 4 HD, +2 LA, CR 3. The NPC is CR 11 and has 12 HD, so I should give it gear as an 11th level NPC?
Yep. It's a 14th level character for XP, a 12th level character for skills, and a 11th level NPC for gear.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oh, and don't forget that feats are based on HD, too. This means that the NPC has the feats of a 12th level character.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Thank you all very much for being so helpful.
One caveat: races with racial HD are given "racial feats" based on the number of HD they have, so that 4 HD yuan-ti already has 2 feats; you don't have to keep them. And it would get its next feat at Ranger 2, since that's character level 6.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oh then. The NPC is a Yuan-Ti Pureblood 8th-level Ranger. Yuan-Ti Pureblood = 4 HD, +2 LA, CR 3. The NPC is CR 11 and has 12 HD, so I should give it gear as an 11th level NPC?


Yup.  All you need to look at is CR 3 and the 8 levels of Ranger to determine what equipment line to use.  Of course if you used this same character as a PC it would count as a 14th-level character but that is a different discussion.

As mentioned the "monster" part already includes feat and skill alotments but those can often be changed.  When this character added +8 level of Ranger it would also get the +1 stat increases for 8 and 12 HD.  It will also run across new feats at 6, 9, and 12 HD.  Excluding bonus feats from species (these would be noted as being bonus feats) and class your NPC should have five feats.

A piece of advice for the NPC's equipment, DON'T overlook selecting a number of long lasting but one use items.  Oils of Magical Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon last for many hours and provide an enchantment bonus to armor/weapons FAR more cheaply then if you actually provide the NPC with a permanent magic item of the same STR.  The Oils for +3 cost 1800 gp and last 12 hours while permanent items cost 9k for armor and 18k for weapons.  Using things like this can virtually equip an NPC to a level that may match, or perhaps even exceed, things a PC may have but you don't need to worry about the long term consequence when the PCs win.

@draco1119:  It's a pretty honest mistake especially if you consider how many time the question asked is the question you answered.  When I answered I made a point of finding my DMG so I could get some hard references down because the OP's question really doesn't come up too often. 
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 

ECL 12 and have skills as level 12 but remember that he have monster class levels then treat him as a multiclass character for the skills points

(you can upgrade up to 12 the skills of the monster class but still cost 2 SP if you are leveling your Standard Class because are CC for that class unless not)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
This will probably start another unending discussion but:
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 

ECL 12 and have skills as level 12 but remember that he have monster class levels then treat him as a multiclass character for the skills points

(you can upgrade up to 12 the skills of the monster class but still cost 2 SP if you are leveling your Standard Class because are CC for that class unless not)

It is NOT "ECL" 12 although it does have 12HD which make it "level 12" for many purposes.  With that given information we have no idea what the actual CL would be because we don't know where the 4 racial HD are coming from and I can't think of anything that has racial HD but no LA.  This is ignoring that Equivalent Character Level doesn't matter here because the OP is looking at an NPC which means all we should care about hit it Challenge Rating.

When it comes to assigning skill points so care must be taken but if you are looking at a class skill as opposed to the race's "class" skills you can still max them out.  If your Yuan-ti Pureblood Ranger 8 wants to have 15 ranks in Search you can get that without buying any of the ranks as CC-skills; this simply will mean that you put multiple points from your ranger levels into Search.  When it comes to assigning skills I suggest you just sit down with an idea of what you want for a final skill alotment then you start with an unclassed monster alotting its skill points and then add in the skill points you gain from class levels.  Your character will have 7x(2+INT mod) skill points to use in its "racial" class skills of Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge, Listen or Spot without spending them CC; note these will be gained before adding in Ranger levels so you're limited to 7 ranks in a skill at this point.  After you've assigned the racial skill points you can then take the 8x(6+INT mod) skill points you gain from Ranger8 and use them just like a Ranger would with a maximum number of ranks in any "class" skill of 15; if you want Disguise at 15 ranks (it is not a Ranger skill) it will cost 16 Ranger skill points to go with 7 racial skill points as it is a cc-skill to a ranger.  If you want 15 ranks in Search you may just want to take them all out of your Ranger pool of skill points.

This will probably start another unending discussion but:
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 

ECL 12 and have skills as level 12 but remember that he have monster class levels then treat him as a multiclass character for the skills points

(you can upgrade up to 12 the skills of the monster class but still cost 2 SP if you are leveling your Standard Class because are CC for that class unless not)

It is NOT "ECL" 12 although it does have 12HD which make it "level 12" for many purposes.  With that given information we have no idea what the actual CL would be because we don't know where the 4 racial HD are coming from and I can't think of anything that has racial HD but no LA.  This is ignoring that Equivalent Character Level doesn't matter here because the OP is looking at an NPC which means all we should care about hit it Challenge Rating.

When it comes to assigning skill points so care must be taken but if you are looking at a class skill as opposed to the race's "class" skills you can still max them out.  If your Yuan-ti Pureblood Ranger 8 wants to have 15 ranks in Search you can get that without buying any of the ranks as CC-skills; this simply will mean that you put multiple points from your ranger levels into Search.  When it comes to assigning skills I suggest you just sit down with an idea of what you want for a final skill alotment then you start with an unclassed monster alotting its skill points and then add in the skill points you gain from class levels.  Your character will have 7x(2+INT mod) skill points to use in its "racial" class skills of Concentration, Disguise, Hide, Knowledge, Listen or Spot without spending them CC; note these will be gained before adding in Ranger levels so you're limited to 7 ranks in a skill at this point.  After you've assigned the racial skill points you can then take the 8x(6+INT mod) skill points you gain from Ranger8 and use them just like a Ranger would with a maximum number of ranks in any "class" skill of 15; if you want Disguise at 15 ranks (it is not a Ranger skill) it will cost 16 Ranger skill points to go with 7 racial skill points as it is a cc-skill to a ranger.  If you want 15 ranks in Search you may just want to take them all out of your Ranger pool of skill points.


he never say if the monster have LV adjusment and i was saying that have 12 levels that not is the same of 8 levels and ECL 12, levels are the current HD of the creature.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
When assigning CR to creatures that you are adding Character Levels to the DM really has to wing it in several cases and adjust accordingly. Adding a class to a particular non-optimized race for example will be less effective then adding the same class to an optimized race.

Such as adding Sorceror levels of a high Charisma race as opposed to adding Wizard levels to a low inteligence race. Or adding barbarian levels to a very weak creature like a pixy as opposed to say an Orc. 

The effect should be compared to doing the same with a standard race and adjusting accordingly. If that Race/Class combo is over effective or crippled due to the result.

ie Orc Wizard level 8, is a poor combination, Orc Barbarian is powerful combination.  And the CR should be adjusted accordingly.
When assigning CR to creatures that you are adding Character Levels to the DM really has to wing it in several cases and adjust accordingly. Adding a class to a particular non-optimized race for example will be less effective then adding the same class to an optimized race.

Such as adding Sorceror levels of a high Charisma race as opposed to adding Wizard levels to a low inteligence race. Or adding barbarian levels to a very weak creature like a pixy as opposed to say an Orc. 

The effect should be compared to doing the same with a standard race and adjusting accordingly. If that Race/Class combo is over effective or crippled due to the result.

ie Orc Wizard level 8, is a poor combination, Orc Barbarian is powerful combination.  And the CR should be adjusted accordingly.

i think a level 20 wizard orc can deafeat very easy a barbarian level 20 ORC, remember that in high level the spellcasters become very powerful and a  non-magical character need the support of very powerful items and still dont have the protection and scrying abilities of a spellcaster like scry, nondetection, teleport, alter-self and many others that suppor the life style.

still heaving the barbarian at 5 fts the wizard orc can use celerity and cast teleport to go out and then use scry and spell like nightmare again the barbarian from a safe place and stalker him until the death.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
i think a level 20 wizard orc can deafeat very easy a barbarian level 20 ORC, remember that in high level the spellcasters become very powerful and a  non-magical character need the support of very powerful items and still dont have the protection and scrying abilities of a spellcaster like scry, nondetection, teleport, alter-self and many others that suppor the life style.

still heaving the barbarian at 5 fts the wizard orc can use celerity and cast teleport to go out and then use scry and spell like nightmare again the barbarian from a safe place and stalker him until the death.

Maybe so, but the barbarian ORC can hit the wizard orc with the banhammer and make the wizard disappear.  

"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, Orcs start with an Inteligence of 8, add 20 levels of Wizard and you get +5 Inteligence, total 13 Int, or a 20th level Wizard that can cast level 3 Spells.

Of course that isn't the prefered build for an Orc Wizard, but that isn't my point to compare an Orc Wizard to an Orc barabarian, but to compare them to a core Player race.

A Orc Wizard compared to a Human Wizard will be hurting in many ways especially if you gave him the first level in the Orc race.

If you start an Orc as a PC and draw up his stats then you can start with a 16 Int vs the Human 18 Int. However if you start him as a level 1 orc and then add 19 levels of Wizard then he is starting with 8 Int, and is going to be crippled as a result.

Of course, using the PC method can still get a decent Wizard, I have an Orc wizard in one game as a PC I am not debating this at all.

What my point was depending on how the Dm applies the clas race combo, he should adjust the CR accordingly.
This will probably start another unending discussion but:

he never say if the monster have LV adjusment and i was saying that have 12 levels that not is the same of 8 levels and ECL 12, levels are the current HD of the creature.

Called It!

Oma, your lask of understanding when it comes to the rules is very apparent here.  The OP never mentioned LA but was also asking a question that is IMPOSSIBLE to answer with the information that was given; that question being "how much equipment should this character get?"  Knowing the total number of HD does allow us to answer the second question regarding maximum skill points but that has NOTHING to do with EQUIVALENT CL.  When it comes to many things that character is "12th-level" but when it comes to monster that is not the same as being ECL 12.  Equivalent Character Level (ECL) ONLY exists for PCs and their followers/henchmen who adventure with them; it matters for determining PC experience, encounters, and is used for PC treasure calculations.  However you need to remember the OP was asking about a NPC and that is where Challenge Rating (CR) comes in and is used; for many monster CR does NOT equal level (HD) and may not even come close to ECL if it was used as a PC.

When assigning CR to creatures that you are adding Character Levels to the DM really has to wing it in several cases and adjust accordingly. Adding a class to a particular non-optimized race for example will be less effective then adding the same class to an optimized race.

Such as adding Sorceror levels of a high Charisma race as opposed to adding Wizard levels to a low inteligence race. Or adding barbarian levels to a very weak creature like a pixy as opposed to say an Orc. 

The effect should be compared to doing the same with a standard race and adjusting accordingly. If that Race/Class combo is over effective or crippled due to the result.

ie Orc Wizard level 8, is a poor combination, Orc Barbarian is powerful combination.  And the CR should be adjusted accordingly.

Somewhere the rules do mention adding class levels to monsters as "associated" and "non-associated" classes where associated classes are +1 CR per level while "non-associated levels" ar +1/2 CR per level.  The thing there is that those "non-associated level" only get a CR break when they are on a monster with a lot of base HD.  Your Orc Wizard may not be extremely optimized but it does have it's CR assigned based on its Wizard level with +1 CR per level of Wizard.  Contrasted to an Ogre Wizard (I don't know why you're being such a fool making this but who knows) which gets to see Wizard 4 as "non-associated level" which makes an Ogre Wizard 4 only CR 5 while an Ogre Barbarian 4 is CR 7.

The CR system does make the assumption that you don't try to do really stupid things when you build characters.  This basically means you don't pick classes that there is no way you could use such as a "high level wizard" which has a low INT score.  At best I'd say you could make a +/- 1 adjustment to the CR of a creature playing strongly into its strength or its weaknesses.

I'll point out that an Orc Wizard is no weaker then a Half-Orc Wizard.  Both species get -2 INT but that does not automatically mean you should give them a CR break if they happen to level in a class that uses INT.  If that "wizard" is part of some gish build then the race could actually be beneficial overall.

If you're using a Pixie Barbarian I'd hope you have a good reason to be using Barbarian.  It isn't much worse then a Halfling Barbarian and if you're just going for the skills and specials I don't see why it should get a CR break.


I almost can't believe which side of this I'm on.
Oma, Orcs start with an Inteligence of 8, add 20 levels of Wizard and you get +5 Inteligence, total 13 Int, or a 20th level Wizard that can cast level 3 Spells.
Show


Of course that isn't the prefered build for an Orc Wizard, but that isn't my point to compare an Orc Wizard to an Orc barabarian, but to compare them to a core Player race.

A Orc Wizard compared to a Human Wizard will be hurting in many ways especially if you gave him the first level in the Orc race.

If you start an Orc as a PC and draw up his stats then you can start with a 16 Int vs the Human 18 Int. However if you start him as a level 1 orc and then add 19 levels of Wizard then he is starting with 8 Int, and is going to be crippled as a result.

Of course, using the PC method can still get a decent Wizard, I have an Orc wizard in one game as a PC I am not debating this at all.

What my point was depending on how the Dm applies the clas race combo, he should adjust the CR accordingly.

Here MrC, you are just full of it.  Orcs work just like any other species.  They happen to take a -2 penalty to INT which does hurt them in that department but nobody would play a wizard starting with INT 8.  If you use the stat array presented in the DM for the levelled Orc you'd definitely switch the STR and INT scores around which would have the Orc Wizard to INT 11 and I'd probable steal a point from another score for INT 12.  This gets your "example" up to INT 17 at 20th-level and is still assuming you are just giving it commoner stats which few DMs do at those levels.

An orc wizard doesn't give that much up to a human wizard.  The orc's -2 INT may have it one step behind in general but depending on how the orc focuses that could be ignored.  The human also gets the bonus feat and extra skill point which helps but all of that isn't really going to make a +1 CR worth of difference between the two. 

If you want to make arguements about lowering the CR for "non-associated" species you really should find something other then a base species that doesn't have any racial HD or any LA.
 

NPC mosnters gain Equipment based in her CR not her ECL or levels as example a Vampire, but the CR dont are used for the calculation of the skills points only the Level.

he only asked for the Skills point of a monster with 12 Hds that is equial to 12 levels.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Hi
An NPC has 8 class levels and 4 levels from race. Do I give the NPC gear as a 8th-level NPC or a 12th-level NPC?
EDIT: Also, can it have a maximum of 11 or 15 ranks in a class skill? 



NPC mosnters gain Equipment based in her CR not her ECL or levels as example a Vampire, but the CR dont are used for the calculation of the skills points only the Level.

he only asked for the Skills point of a monster with 12 Hds that is equial to 12 levels.


You should reconsider that line because that is just the question added to the original question which had nothiing to do with skill ranks.  I'll also remind you that you were using the term ECL when it comes to skill ranks when it has nothing to do with them and that is what I'm calling you out on here.  I'll remind you that while you may have answered half the question you quoted the ENTIRE question which made your answer far less reasonable.

I believe every answer to the OPs question has stated that with 12 HD (8 class + 4 racial in the problem) the character has a maximum of 15 ranks in a class skill.  The problem was when people tried to answer the "how much gear should this NPC have" question and term ECL started to come in when it clearly has no place in this discussion.

Oma, if your comments were directed at the OP you should have mentioned him instead of me.  If you're trying to show me that you actually know what you are talking about that's great; just make sure you actually get things right the first time so I don't need to point out the problems with your posts.
 
StevenO, yes if the DM created the Orc from level 0, ie the same as a human PC, then it really doesn't hurt them beyond the -2 Int, and I myself have an Orc Wizard, the loss of Inteligence isn't game breaking. I was making an off handed comment on the DM making adjustment for non-optimal combinations. The Orc was perhaps a poor example and depending on the level a CR difference or 1 or 2 is significant.

In the advent of an Orc Wizard, he is already using the non-elite Array, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Which you would only use if you were adding NPC classes, for adding PC classes you would switch to the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, which would start Int 13 (15-2)

This wouldn't be an issue really for the first 12 levels, after that it is debatable if it is worth continuing. At level 16 the orc would learn his next teir of spells 4 levels behind, where as at level 12 he is only 1 level behind. I would choose a different class and pick up Practiced Spell Caster (+4 CL)

As for the CR adjustment, in this case, by the rules, it is +1/2 CR per level until it is equal to the original HD of the base creature. In the case of the Orc 1 HD this would mean a Level 2 Orc Wizard is CR 1, it amounts to a -1 CR in this case.

A level 5 Orc wizard would be CR 4, a level 5 Orc barbarian would be CR 5

If you were to do this to a Minotour, 6 HD, you could add the barbarian levels dirrectly to the minotaur (to keep it's special abilities) The minotaur is level 4 so adding 8 barbarian levels would make it CR 12 (CR 4 +8 Class levels at +1 CR each)

If you were to add 8 levels of Wizard to a Minotaur, adjusting it to an elite array that works first, you would get a CR 4 + 1/2 8th level wizard, or CR 8 total

Level 8 Barbarian/6 HD  Minotaur is CR 12, Level 8/6HD Wizard Minotaur is CR 8.



¬¬

As standard a NPC with 4 monster classes and 8 Class Levels still are a ECL 12 and a level 12 character unless have LA, you can make a human with 4 racial Hds and 8 class levels and still are ECL 12 and use equip as a ECL 12 altroung her CR was 9  the NPCs equipment are based in her ECL and only monster with LA gain equipment based in her CR if are lower, as example the Vampire template.



MONSTERS AND CLASS LEVELS



Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level: To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.

If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
StevenO, yes if the DM created the Orc from level 0, ie the same as a human PC, then it really doesn't hurt them beyond the -2 Int, and I myself have an Orc Wizard, the loss of Inteligence isn't game breaking. I was making an off handed comment on the DM making adjustment for non-optimal combinations. The Orc was perhaps a poor example and depending on the level a CR difference or 1 or 2 is significant.
Show


In the advent of an Orc Wizard, he is already using the non-elite Array, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Which you would only use if you were adding NPC classes, for adding PC classes you would switch to the elite array, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, which would start Int 13 (15-2)

This wouldn't be an issue really for the first 12 levels, after that it is debatable if it is worth continuing. At level 16 the orc would learn his next teir of spells 4 levels behind, where as at level 12 he is only 1 level behind. I would choose a different class and pick up Practiced Spell Caster (+4 CL)

As for the CR adjustment, in this case, by the rules, it is +1/2 CR per level until it is equal to the original HD of the base creature. In the case of the Orc 1 HD this would mean a Level 2 Orc Wizard is CR 1, it amounts to a -1 CR in this case.

A level 5 Orc wizard would be CR 4, a level 5 Orc barbarian would be CR 5

If you were to do this to a Minotour, 6 HD, you could add the barbarian levels dirrectly to the minotaur (to keep it's special abilities) The minotaur is level 4 so adding 8 barbarian levels would make it CR 12 (CR 4 +8 Class levels at +1 CR each)

If you were to add 8 levels of Wizard to a Minotaur, adjusting it to an elite array that works first, you would get a CR 4 + 1/2 8th level wizard, or CR 8 total

Level 8 Barbarian/6 HD  Minotaur is CR 12, Level 8/6HD Wizard Minotaur is CR 8.



I'm familiar with the rules for non-associated class levels.  I'll just remind you that an "Orc" ALWAYS has class levels if it has a class.  An Orc Wizard 1 only gets the 1d4 for hitpoints and is considered CR 1.  I know that if I'm making orc wizards to use as NPCs they probably aren't going to be very high levelled unless I decide to make some other "sub-species" that isn't nearly as stupid.  I'm also going to be more likely to make my orc "wizard" less like wizard and more like magically supported warriors assuming of course I don't just go with orc clerics who may suffer many of the same issues when it comes to suboptimum ability scores.

A minotaur certainly would be a better thing to use as an example.  I'll agree that a Minotaur Barbarian 8 is CR 12 as you have CR 4 for the base and +8 from the levels.  A Minotaur Wizard 8 is actually CR 9; as you mention the +1/2 CR only applies until Wizard Levels = Racial HD which is 6 in this case which means the last two Wizard levels get counted at full value so you have 4+3 (discounted levels) +2 = 9.  Now if we were using either of those as PCs they would both be counted as ECL 16.


Oma, I'll point two things out with regards to your quote.  The first is that it is all talking about about Level Adjusted Monsters who would have an ECL; the spot about NPC gear is where CR and how it is increased comes into play.  The second thing I'll point out is that the SRD is definitely NOT the source to use when it comes to advancing things; note that none of the "improving monsters" suggestions actually tell you how you figure the new monster's Challenge Rating.  Maybe you want to tell me that just using the Elite Array for a monster instead of the average scores doesn't alter a creature's CR but it does; this is one of the reasons I'm outspoke about "rolling" stats in DnD and similar games.
As standard a NPC with 4 monster classes and 8 Class Levels still are a ECL 12 and a level 12 character unless have LA, you can make a human with 4 racial Hds and 8 class levels and still are ECL 12 and use equip as a ECL 12 altroung her CR was 9  the NPCs equipment are based in her ECL and only monster with LA gain equipment based in her CR if are lower, as example the Vampire template.

Out of curiousity where is a "human" getting four racial HD?  I'll mention that while character level for human does equate to "equivalent" character level you should not use the two terms interchangably; "equivalent" isn't needed so it is left out of the discussion to keep from confusing people because the equation only works one way.  When you throw the Vampire Template on a human you don't change its actual level one bit but you sure do increase its CR (by +2) and its equivalent character level for a PC (by +8) so no it would be 12HD, CR14, and ECL20.
Right, right, I forgot that I would be replacing the first HD, not adding an additional level, dunno what I was thinking.
I have a good idea what you were thinking although your comments may have been directed towards me ;)