What do you think of: Min/Maxing

I started playing D&D in High School with 3rd edition back in 2000, and personally, I don't understand this mentality of "min/maxing". For me, this game was a way for me to escape the sadness my life had become and spend time with my father. He was dying of ALS, and for a few hours every weekend, instead of being bound to a wheelchair, he was the DM for my friends and I. He was a storyteller like no other, leading our group of heroes through dungeons and into dragon dens with descriptions even Tolkien would have been impressed with.

So the idea of making choices just for as many +1's as possible to certain things just completely blows my mind. People play like that, picking a certain race just for the bonuses and not because they honestly just want to be a spunky halfling with a heart of gold?

What do you all think? Do you min/max characters? Know a player who does? Have a story about min/maxing gone bad? Let's here 'em.
Welp, I see no possible way this could turn into a flame war.

Carry on. 
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
I think it's a matter of degrees.  Everyone min/maxes to some extent, but the name implies an all-or-nothing nature that only exists at the most extreme ends.  Also, as others have pointed out before, god bless the min-maxers because they show you where and how a system is broken.

There are a great many problems that can be circumvented by players and DMs having a mature discussion about what the game is going to be like before they ever sit down together to play.

 

The answer really does lie in more options, not in confining and segregating certain options.

 

You really shouldn't speak for others.  You can't hear what someone else is saying when you try to put your words in their mouth.

 

Fencing & Swashbuckling as Armor.

D20 Modern Toon PC Race.

Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.

 

Save the breasts.

Welp, I see no possible way this could turn into a flame war.

Carry on. 

Yeah, please don't feed the troll people.  It isn't even a clever or imaginative one.  "I don't understand why people enjoy constrained optimization!!!!!!"
I sometimes do min/max as...some sort of exercise of deconstructing the game mechanics...is like a puzzle, but without having any intention of playing those characters (i don't want to play with such character on my party either...or DM them).

I am indiferent toward min/maxing under certain circunstances, if your DM is cool with it and your entire party min/max, it doesn't have that much problem...the problem came when a single person min/max while the rest don't...because you end up making tunning of challenges (combat or out of combat) a complete nightmare for the DM, because things that would be a challenge for the rest of the party, will be curbstomp by the min/maxer and the challenges that would challenge the min/maxer would destroy the rest of the party... 
AtG: I'm not trolling for anything other than your opinion on Min/Maxing, why you feel that way, and examples of where it went right or wrong in games you've played.

Sorry if that's trolling here. I just wanted to see what others thought about something.

I min/max all the time, but I do my best to back it up with a concept.


My character creation generally goes like so:


"hmm I wonder how I can make this class work for me" *rummage through pdfs, apply google-fu* "dude cool let's try that"


I'll then proceed to make the character from a systemic standpoint using my resources to create the best thing I can, but I always try not to just pull a build off a website or something. I'll use the general direction I've researched: relevent sourcebooks, multiclassing advice; but I will do my own reading and make my own decisions about the build - I don't work from a script.


After the character is written down, I read it over again with a conceptual eye and start to write the backstory. The higher level the character, the more I write.

Welp, I see no possible way this could turn into a flame war.

Carry on. 



Nice one... but I believe I will contribute.

I often "look for as many +1s as possible" to build my character concept. Is my character hard to hurt? Look for pluses to AC or HP. Does he come back hard from being beat down? Look for additional healing, either as instances or bonuses. Is he unusually resistant to lethal efects? Find bonuses to Fortitude(saves). Is he very mobile? Bonuses to speed or jump checks, or abilities that allow/increase flight or teleportation, depending on concept.
For a 4e person like me Min/Maxing doesn't really exist.  I mean Min/Maxing puts a bad taste in everyone's mouth from having the 21 strength half-orc character who took his int to 3 so now he can't read.  Playing with point buy and normal rules you just don't get the sort of negative extremes that are the problems with most Min/Max mentalities.  At worst your "min" is 8 (which is just below average) and everything else is how you are either average or way better than average at stuff.

Personally I make a divide between mechanical and flavorful for most things.  Yes I might choose a particularly iconic spell or class or race because it fits perfectly with the idea, but most times I just make a mechanically powerful character and then build something interesting on top of it.  In 4e, in my understanding of 4e, your sheet is what your character fights like.  Everything else is how you play at the table.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

I min/max all the time, but I do my best to back it up with a concept.


My character creation generally goes like so:


"hmm I wonder how I can make this class work for me" *rummage through pdfs, apply google-fu* "dude cool let's try that"


I'll then proceed to make the character from a systemic standpoint using my resources to create the best thing I can, but I always try not to just pull a build off a website or something. I'll use the general direction I've researched: relevent sourcebooks, multiclassing advice; but I will do my own reading and make my own decisions about the build - I don't work from a script.


After the character is written down, I read it over again with a conceptual eye and start to write the backstory. The higher level the character, the more I write.



Ditto.  I tend to build a mechanical concept that I will enjoy playing at the table, and then use that to inform the flavour I apply to the character, and the role the character plays in the world.  So, when I made my practical, in-play version of the Blinker, below, I built the Eladrin Knight, and then said 'right, why do I have an Eladrin who likes fighting and teleporting a lot?' and worked out his backstory from there.

When the system has a distinct element of minmaxing or optimisation possibility, I'm going to exercise it as far as possible within the concept of the world and the rules of the system, because I see no value in having mechanics that are less good than they could be.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  
I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  



I don't see anyone here talking about min/max in the context of attempting to break the game - though one of my brothers sees that as the challenge the game presents him.


More like we've got a bunch of resources and we want to use those resources. Everyone wants to be powerful and feel cool in game, so we use our resources to be powerful and feel cool.


I don't get a lot of the issues brought up either and my basic reaction to many of them is "I hope they don't fix that in such a way that I have to change the way I see this, 'cause I don't see the issue."



But anyway, trying to get the most out of what you have in front of you is min/maxing. How far you go with it is a seperate issue.

I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  



Min/Maxing isn't about breaking anything.  Its about making the character feel mechanically heroic.  They are awesome cause they hit hard and are hard to kill.  How they express that awesome and how you build up your heroic name is what you do when you RP that powerhouse of a character.

Lets put it this way.  If you had a character that was in every role-playing sense identical to another character that did 5 more damage.  Would you like to play as the first or the second one?  Or to put it in RP terms.  If you had a character who could mechanically take 2 Orcs and a second that could mechanically take 4 Orcs but were otherwise identical story-wise which would you take? 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  



I don't see anyone here talking about min/max in the context of attempting to break the game - though one of my brothers sees that as the challenge the game presents him.


More like we've got a bunch of resources and we want to use those resources. Everyone wants to be powerful and feel cool in game, so we use our resources to be powerful and feel cool.


I don't get a lot of the issues brought up either and my basic reaction to many of them is "I hope they don't fix that in such a way that I have to change the way I see this, 'cause I don't see the issue."



But anyway, trying to get the most out of what you have in front of you is min/maxing. How far you go with it is a seperate issue.




-1

Not everyone. I don't know why people say things that are so absolute; they're incorrect, and it lessens their own arguments.

EDIT: Corrected bold selection. 
I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  



Min/Maxing isn't about breaking anything.  Its about making the character feel mechanically heroic.  They are awesome cause they hit hard and are hard to kill.  How they express that awesome and how you build up your heroic name is what you do when you RP that powerhouse of a character.

Lets put it this way.  If you had a character that was in every role-playing sense identical to another character that did 5 more damage.  Would you like to play as the first or the second one?  Or to put it in RP terms.  If you had a character who could mechanically take 2 Orcs and a second that could mechanically take 4 Orcs but were otherwise identical story-wise which would you take? 


How do you build identical characters where one has +5 damage. I'm guessing that the second character sacrificed something to get the +5, and that might be what I would rather play.

Min/Max space


In 4e:


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Daily attacks


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Encounter powers


I previous editions:


    I hate that monsters can make the DC of my spell


Any version of the game:


    Missing with an attack or ability is not heroic and I like my powers to have an effect of the story.


 


GM:  Do you have to min/max that character


Me:  Do you want me to play a mediocre, non-heroic, character?


Min/Max space


In 4e:


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Daily attacks


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Encounter powers


I previous editions:


    I hate that monsters can make the DC of my spell


Any version of the game:


    Missing with an attack or ability is not heroic and I like my powers to have an effect of the story.


 


GM:  Do you have to min/max that character


Me:  Do you want me to play a mediocre, non-heroic, character?


DM: There are still going to be misses, no matter how min/maxed your character is. There doesn't have to be anything non-heroic about a typical character; that's all in how you play it.

Your reasonings sound a bit whiny to me. I've had many "roll of the dice" characters that have been very heroic at times. Doing something that comes easy isn't very heroic; not that it can't be good for others, but not necessarily heroic. Heroic would be going beyond what is easily accomplished, sacrificing something of yourself, for the good of others.

EDIT: Edited for spelling, and punctuation.

Min/Max space


In 4e:


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Daily attacks


     I min/max because I hate to miss with Encounter powers


I previous editions:


    I hate that monsters can make the DC of my spell


Any version of the game:


    Missing with an attack or ability is not heroic and I like my powers to have an effect of the story.


 


GM:  Do you have to min/max that character


Me:  Do you want me to play a mediocre, non-heroic, character?




DM:  I want you to have fun roleplaying.


Roleplaying a character that always hits, or always does anything to me would get boring fast.

Edited for clarification. 
The only issue I (or anyone else I've talked to) has with Min/Maxing is when a character becomes nothing more than a bunch of numbers. Every character I've made, I've come up with a concept and then worked to make it the best I can. I have known players who look at the rules to build a set of numbers, THEN figure out a character from it. That can be annoying to the DM and other Players, especially after the 3rd or 4th time.
I have now figured out why our group never min/maxed or even thought of it and may also explain why I have had problems understanding other issues brought uo on the boards lately, ie 5mwd.  We never tried to break it, we just enjoyed playing and rping the characters we rolled up.  



Min/Maxing isn't about breaking anything.  Its about making the character feel mechanically heroic.  They are awesome cause they hit hard and are hard to kill.  How they express that awesome and how you build up your heroic name is what you do when you RP that powerhouse of a character.

Lets put it this way.  If you had a character that was in every role-playing sense identical to another character that did 5 more damage.  Would you like to play as the first or the second one?  Or to put it in RP terms.  If you had a character who could mechanically take 2 Orcs and a second that could mechanically take 4 Orcs but were otherwise identical story-wise which would you take? 


How do you build identical characters where one has +5 damage. I'm guessing that the second character sacrificed something to get the +5, and that might be what I would rather play.



If you want to play a different character for a mechanical reason, great go ahead.  But the point was to make it clear they for role-playing purposes what you were doing was neutral.  It only had a mechanical effect.

I don't understand the idea that many people have that put good RP and good Optimization as two mutually exclusive concepts.  My favorite character to play, by far the table's favorite character I've ever played, and my hardest hitting character are all the same one.  There is no reason, not one, that you can't be mechanically strong and still have excellent RP.  They are on two completely different systems and in no way are inversely proportional to one another. 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
The only issue I (or anyone else I've talked to) has with Min/Maxing is when a character becomes nothing more than a bunch of numbers. Every character I've made, I've come up with a concept and then worked to make it the best I can. I have known players who look at the rules to build a set of numbers, THEN figure out a character from it. That can be annoying to the DM and other Players, especially after the 3rd or 4th time.



If the player is doing it right, which of the two he/she did first should be completel irrelevant.  You shouldn't notice a difference.  I built the group favorite Mechanics then Fluff but why does it matter?  I even renamed all of my attacks because I thought they would be more fun to say in his voice using the names he would call his moves.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
The only issue I (or anyone else I've talked to) has with Min/Maxing is when a character becomes nothing more than a bunch of numbers. Every character I've made, I've come up with a concept and then worked to make it the best I can. I have known players who look at the rules to build a set of numbers, THEN figure out a character from it. That can be annoying to the DM and other Players, especially after the 3rd or 4th time.



If the player is doing it right, which of the two he/she did first should be completel irrelevant.  You shouldn't notice a difference.  I built the group favorite Mechanics then Fluff but why does it matter?  I even renamed all of my attacks because I thought they would be more fun to say in his voice using the names he would call his moves.



Obviously the player isn't doing it right or we woudn't notice Tongue Out
GM:  Do you have to min/max that character?

Me:  Do you want me to play a mediocre, non-heroic, character?




DM:  I want you to have fun roleplaying.


Me: Then get off my case and let me build my character.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.

Obviously the player isn't doing it right or we woudn't notice



This. In all honesty I think 99% of the Min/Max argument doesn't come from mechanics harming roleplay.  It comes from having experience with crappy roleplayers.  Yeah, you can build a mechanically awesome character that is boring as 12 ounzes of molasses in a copper tin.  The flip side is you can build a character that is awesome in roleplay but frustrating in combat because their character sheet says they are using longswords but they feel like they are using sporks.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here

Role-playing games come from war gaming. In war games part of the war game puzzle is min maxing your army.


 There are war gamers who often run fluffy or historically themed lists, they have a lot of role-player in them. And role-players who min max for combat advantage, they might be better off war gaming.


 If you don’t know much about war gaming I have a short youtube video explaining the basics of that hobby from the role playing perspective. 


It is on youtube under bluespruce786, I can't seem to get the link to work.


Role-playing games come from war gaming. In war games part of the war game puzzle is min maxing your army.


 There are war gamers who often run fluffy or historically themed lists, they have a lot of role-player in them. And role-players who min max for combat advantage, they might be better off war gaming.


 If you don’t know much about war gaming I have a short youtube video explaining the basics of that hobby from the role playing perspective. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFni1CR-bVM&list...>You can follow this link to the video




Or you can just enjoy playing DnD and not play a wargame?  They are rather different hobbies.
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here




Or you can just enjoy playing DnD and not play a wargame?  They are rather different hobbies.


They are very different, but on the same spectrum. When I see a min maxer at a role playing table I often wonder if that gamer wouldn't find war-gaming to be a more enjoyable hobby. 

I believe characters should be built as it the character built themselves. If the character is a min/maxer of some degree, then he or she is built like one of the same degree.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

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They are very different, but on the same spectrum. When I see a min maxer at a role playing table I often wonder if that gamer wouldn't find war-gaming to be a more enjoyable hobby. 


As someone who's tried it, no.  They just don't scratch the same itch.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
In roleplaying game, there is "game".
If someone knows a game where the min/maxer profile doesn't exist, then I want to know its name.

It's just like a football player saying that he can't understand how people can play football for anything else than winning, and that people who think otherwise are not honest.

A concept that involves challenge will automatically generate competition. A min/maxer in a rpg is just someone who enjoys the competition on the mechanical level of the game. And it doesn't automatically excludes the min/maxer from enjoying beeing challenged by the scenario part.

Maybe the OP is not a troll, but the result is just another basic intolerance manifestation. And basing the post on a cruel personal situation render it even worse.


If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

Everyone wants to be powerful and feel cool in game, so we use our resources to be powerful and feel cool



-1

Not everyone. I don't know why people say things that are so absolute; they're incorrect, and it lessens their own arguments.

EDIT: Corrected bold selection. 



Mkay. I don't know about anyone else but I have never in the couple of decades I've played had a person turn around and say that they don't want to be powerful and feel cool. I've never had anyone say anything that even remotely resembles that.


Maybe you've encountered some people who are actively going after being weak and feeling uncool in game? If so I stand corrected but I have serious doubts that anyone goes to the trouble of making a character that they want to fail at something.


Sometimes, you'll get someone who takes a contrary concept and deliberately goes for something that is not optimised, but usually they do optimise their character within that objective. I made a pure class melee wizard once that basically used buffs and feats to up their weapon attacks. Was I min/maxing? You betcha. I was taking the options that morphed my pure class range weakling into a melee guy. That's min/maxing. Was the concept a purely optimised strategy? Hell no, but that didn't mean I wasn't trying to make the best melee pure wizard I could make.


So I don't buy for one second that there is anyone anywhere that doesn't want to be powerful and feel cool in a game like this. I do believe that there are people who don't feel the need to always do the most powerful thing and/or allow their character concept dictate what their choices are, but they still will take the most favourable choices within their concept.

We have a player who is extremely good at making characters. And in a party that is not uniformly that way, he might get bored. Recently, he declared his monk had eaten bad sushi and died, because that monk felt overpowered compared to the rest of the group (4e). Now, he will try a rogue, hopefully with more fun to be had.

I think there's a self-regulating element. If one character outperforms the group, or one character underperforms, that character will likely get swapped out to keep the game fun. And if the particular group role plays a lot and does combat very little, well, then the issue likely won't come up.
 
They are very different, but on the same spectrum. When I see a min maxer at a role playing table I often wonder if that gamer wouldn't find war-gaming to be a more enjoyable hobby. 


As someone who's tried it, no.  They just don't scratch the same itch.



I do both, because as you say "they don't scratch the same itch." But I think what sometimes happens is that people get into RP or WG and just never look at the other one. And I can see how a war gamer that got trapped into a role playing world would be unsatisfied, would try to compensate by min/maxing all of his characters, and would confuse and frustrate the actual role-players at the table.

Let me try that link again: ">Link to vid on wargaming from a role players perspective

There we go. I must have deleted some of the syntax on the last one.
We have a player who is extremely good at making characters. And in a party that is not uniformly that way, he might get bored. Recently, he declared his monk had eaten bad sushi and died, because that monk felt overpowered compared to the rest of the group (4e). Now, he will try a rogue, hopefully with more fun to be had.

I think there's a self-regulating element. If one character outperforms the group, or one character underperforms, that character will likely get swapped out to keep the game fun. And if the particular group role plays a lot and does combat very little, well, then the issue likely won't come up.
 



One of my brothers sees the game as a system that's designed to be broken, and he'll spend days planning meticulously to get "the perfect character".


He'll totally overperform, but that's what he does and what we tend to do is just kick his ass in game. He knows this will happen and that's just how it goes, but that's OK 'cause he likes being singled out in that way and it only serves to push his character planning even harder, which he finds fun.


The social dynamic is everything in a ttrpg.

 And I can see how a war gamer that got trapped into a role playing world would be unsatisfied, would try to compensate by min/maxing all of his characters, and would confuse and frustrate the actual role-players at the table.



Why do the "actual roleplayers" at the table have to not be min/maxers?  Why don't you just talk to that person about roleplaying rather than worry about what he is doing under the hood.  They are two separate things.


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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here


So I don't buy for one second that there is anyone anywhere that doesn't want to be powerful and feel cool in a game like this. I do believe that there are people who don't feel the need to always do the most powerful thing and/or allow their character concept dictate what their choices are, but they still will take the most favourable choices within their concept.




My RP characters sometimes kick some ass and that does indeed make me feel powerful. But that’s not primarily why I RP, and my characters represent that. I have had a ton of fun playing characters that were completely ineffectual at combat, Sages and cartographers like that.


 

I do both, because as you say "they don't scratch the same itch." But I think what sometimes happens is that people get into RP or WG and just never look at the other one. And I can see how a war gamer that got trapped into a role playing world would be unsatisfied, would try to compensate by min/maxing all of his characters, and would confuse and frustrate the actual role-players at the table.


The problem here is that most "min/maxers"(I really hate the amount of baggage on that term) aren't unsatisfied with RPing.  It isn't generally a matter of trying to compensate for an activity you find unfun.  For me, it seemed fairly natural that if you were enthusiastic about the game, you'd get into multiple aspects of it, including getting to know the rules well and to use them well.  That's basically the opposite of being unsatisfied.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
What exactly is min/maxing?

Honestly, I hear it all the time, and I think I know what it means, but I do not think I've ever done it (or not in such an extreme).

For example:

1. I play almost always as a Dwarf, regardless of the class I want to be.
2. I try to compensate for any Dwarf bonus/failure, but putting my best score in the stat I need most, then the rest go from there. Yes, if I have a poor stat, I look for whatever I can dump it into that I won't need, or can afford to lose. But if I'm making a fighter as an example, I may put my best score in STR, and my second may end up in DEX (if I want to shoot) or heck even CHA if I want to play on my diplomacy or intimidate.
3. I pick feats on two things, background story and use. I may toss in a crazy feat that really is more of a background link than anything else, like if my brother was a holy man, and I was supposed to be as well before taking up arms.

As a DM, I also try to instill this in my players. Pick what you want, not what you feel the party needs. Sometimes it turns out bad, but I let the players revamp their character (or fully replace) twice in a campaign if they choose poorly.

"The turning of the tide always begins with one soldier's decision to head back into the fray"

 And I can see how a war gamer that got trapped into a role playing world would be unsatisfied, would try to compensate by min/maxing all of his characters, and would confuse and frustrate the actual role-players at the table.



Why do the "actual roleplayers" at the table have to not be min/maxers?  Why don't you just talk to that person about roleplaying rather than worry about what he is doing under the hood.  They are two separate things.






I never said that they were the same. I have seen great role players who always min max their characters, nothing wrong with that. And I (like you I think) very much disagree with the idea that a min maxer is not role playing “correctly” or whatever.


 I was trying to speak to the OP and share some of my observations about why a player might consistently come to a RP table and not be happy about being there.