Poaching from 4e for DnD Next

I don't care about the arguement stemming from which is better.  Personally I'll stick with 4e for a while yet, but that isn't the point.

The point of the question is to ask what you want to see in Next Classwise that did not make it into, or was done poorly in 4e.

Here is my list:

1) An effective Summoner.  One of the things they didn't do very well in 4e was deal with summoned things and having a character who could amass a small army of magical pets.

2) Having a Dex "defender".  However you want to go about it, but a character whose built in fluff (and yes I know fluff can be mutable) is designed around just not getting hit.  I've always really liked the characters in prose and movies that is just impossible to catch for one reason or another.

I'll add more as we go along, but those are just my 2 to get the conversation started.

I apologize in advance if this has already happened, but I'm new to this part of the forums.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I don't care about the arguement stemming from which is better.  Personally I'll stick with 4e for a while yet, but that isn't the point.

The point of the question is to ask what you want to see in Next Classwise that did not make it into, or was done poorly in 4e.

Here is my list:

1) An effective Summoner.  One of the things they didn't do very well in 4e was deal with summoned things and having a character who could amass a small army of magical pets.

2) Having a Dex "defender".  However you want to go about it, but a character whose built in fluff (and yes I know fluff can be mutable) is designed around just not getting hit.  I've always really liked the characters in prose and movies that is just impossible to catch for one reason or another.

I'll add more as we go along, but those are just my 2 to get the conversation started.

I apologize in advance if this has already happened, but I'm new to this part of the forums.



You can't have a balanced game if a caster can summon a small army of pets. It totally destroys the action economy. It would be worse in 5E where bounded accuracy makes low level monsters relevant longer.

About the only way it could be accomplished would be a bunch of AC 10 1 hit point, -2 to attack, 1 damage dealing minion types and even that would break with more than 5-10 of them.
I wasn't implying it would be easy, or in fact even possible.  What I was saying is that I want to see it happen.

The "all-dodge" based defender doesn't work in many games because unlucky rolls murder them and lucky roles make them invincible.

Do I know how to make it work?  Not really.  I've got some ideas, but nothing super concrete.  I'm just putting up a wishlist that is what it is.  A list of wishes. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
It would be awesome to have a summoning class but I agree with vegetakiller, it would be extremely difficult to do.  One of the few concrete ways I can think of right now is effectively diminishing the 'toughness' of the summoning class to account for his summoned creatures.  But then that would suck to play a guy who is fractionally less good as the other classes unless he has his pets deployed.  
Actually druids did a fairly good job of herd summoners, many of their summons had instinctive actions that they would use even if the druid did not direct them. It was tricky to pull off but a summon druid in 4e could run roughshod over the field if he was willing to drop that many dailies.

Other options include but are not limited to: treating the hordes as one creature (ala swarm or mob rules), and/or making extensive use of spammable minion summons.

You can have horde summoners be balanced as long as certain things are kept under control. The action economy is the important bit, and you can play a few games with that, as long as you're careful, without breaking it. 

The problem with the dex defender is of course that the people you describe are more in line with rogues, monks, or rangers, and aren't unhittable just from insane AC, but from their ability to simply not be in the square when the attack hits. It's really not a defenders job to be constantly sliding out of reach (unless he's got some method of keeping the baddies focused on him while he does it).

While I enjoy the discussion on my two submissions, does anyone have a pet build/class/concept they wish to see in the new edition as well?

On the topic of my build: I really like the idea of 1 round summons and having a bunch of different ways to modify them.  Basically they last for a round, maybe 2 with a feat or something, and do something simple, but the summoner has many different tools to pick from for the situation.  Just a thought.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
The term amass would imply that they haven't all been summoned at once (or during one encounter even). I wouldn't have trouble with a summoner having many summoned creatures, if they are of appropriately low level/power.

I think a summoner class should have an overall limit of the total level/power that he can control at any given time. Many low level/power creatures, a few mid-level/power creatures or one higher level/power creature; with any group numbering more than, say, twice his level being treated as a swarm.

 I also think that, the more powerful the summoned creature is, the more it would try to overcome the summoner's control; requiring a contest of wills that keeps more of the summoner's concentration for more powerful creatures.
@lawrence.  I like the idea of limiting it by power that you can split up, but it might turn into too much of a minigame.  If a low "power" creature had a really cool ability it could get out of hand really quickly.  On the flip side designers would be tempted to make all the summons boring to avoid that kind-of-obvious pit trap. 
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
The term amass would imply that they haven't all been summoned at once (or during one encounter even). I wouldn't have trouble with a summoner having many summoned creatures, if they are of appropriately low level/power.

I think a summoner class should have an overall limit of the total level/power that he can control at any given time. Many low level/power creatures, a few mid-level/power creatures or one higher level/power creature; with any group numbering more than, say, twice his level being treated as a swarm.

 I also think that, the more powerful the summoned creature is, the more it would try to overcome the summoner's control; requiring a contest of wills that keeps more of the summoner's concentration for more powerful creatures.



If they have a really low to hit bonus like -2 and the inability to crit, then you could do about 4-5 of them. The problem comes in when the probability is calculated together:

Number     Percent      Damage
of attacks  chance       Per
per round  of 1 hit       Round (1d4)
1              30              0.75
2              49              1.5
3              65.7           2.25
4              75.99         3
5              83.193       3.75
6              88.2351     4.5
7              91.76457   5.25

That's with 7 low to hit chance mobs with low damage without crits factored in.
No, even with weak monsters that's far too many to be operating semi-independently.

For example ability x summons four basic creatures (let's call them pawns).

Each pawn is far from intimidating on its own, but their advantage is that they have a wicked OP attack, that costs the summoner's reaction.

Furthermore each pawn threatens it's own space.

They move on your turn, but don't attack independently.

 
Actually you can do a multi-pet character in 4E. I can't comment on how viable it is in combat (never actually played it) but at level 1 you can have three pets from class/theme features, plus a summon or conjuration power that gives you a pet for one encounter per day. And at level 11 you can be up to five full-time pets from class/theme features and feats, plus summons or conjurations from three classes,  some Wondrous Item figurines (each figurine can become an animal), and maybe some purchased animals.

Here's how:
class: Hybrid Ranger|Sentinel - Sentinel gets you a Beast Companion
deity: The Traveler - this is important at level 11
theme: Fey Beast Tamer - gets you a Fey Beast Companion
feat: Hybrid Talent, be a Beastmaster Ranger - gets you a Beast Companion
daily power: any Summon, or a Conjuration or Enchantment that is close enough to qualify as a pet
----
Level 1 or 2
feat: Spirit Talker - you're a Shaman with a Spirit Companion 
----
Level 10 or before
buy a horse or other domesticated animal
get an Onyx Dog, follow up with more Wondrous Item figurines as opportunities arise
somehow get trained in Bluff - important at level 11
powers: more Summons and interesting Conjurations or Enchantments
----
Level 11
paragon path: Traveler's Harlequin
free multiclass: anything Arcane
feat: Arcane Familiar


However, this brings up something that 4E did NOT do at all well in regards to pets: A simple set of rules on how pets act, how they move, duration where applicable, what happens if they are reduced to 0 HP...

The following each have their own slightly different rules:
1) The Ranger's Beast Companion
2) The Sentinel's Beast Companion
3) The Fey Beast Tamer's Beast Companion
4) The Animal Master's Animal Minion (not that anyone cares)
5) The arcane classes' Arcane Familiar
6) The Thrallherd's Thrall
7) The Shaman's Spirit Companion (a special case of a conjuration)
8) A purchased animal
....(all the above are effectively full-time pets)
9) A Wondrous Item animate
10) Any other conjuration that can move or attack
11) An enchantment that can move or attack
12) A dominated creature
EDIT: I forgot a few
13) A Druid's summoned creature (other than a Sentinel's Beast Companion)
14) A Wizard's or Cleric's summoned creature

Also quite a few of those can be ridden by at least some PCs, and how the rules for mounts interact with the pet rules can be complex.

This is a mess. It's why I will probably never play my Crazy Cat Lady: I don't even want to try to keep my 3-to-8 pets and their slightly different rules straight, at least not for more than one or two sessions.

5E needs to handle pets better than this. (So does 4E.)
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Yeah, a small "horde" of summoned creatures is a cool idea, but I've never seen it really be feasible. Not even for the power thing, it just takes soooo much more time when you double the amount of combatants on your side.
My two copper.
Yeah, a small "horde" of summoned creatures is a cool idea, but I've never seen it really be feasible. Not even for the power thing, it just takes soooo much more time when you double the amount of combatants on your side.



Well when i talk about having a small horde I mean a lot of options not really a ton of things on the field at once.  Consider the earlier idea of summons lasting until the end of your next turn.  Then think of these summons in the player's Arsenal.  Assume there is some sort of penalty to your summon getting killed.

1) Hard hitter but squishy and low defenses.
2) Medium hitter but gives a buff of some kind to allies nearby.
3) Medium hitter but gives a debuff of some kind to the enemy it attacks.
4) Low hitter but very high defesnes and stays in place being a psuedo defender that penalizes things for ignoring it (preferably to do a good bit of damage).
5) Low hitter but has an aura of damage to all things nearby.
6) Low hitter but "pulses" an effect of some kind from the target giving out penalties and what not to enemies near by.

Depending on how you go with it the summoner could be an interesting support class.  Sort of a mix between 4e shaman and a wizard summoner. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
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Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
I see, yes tendency for summons to be daily powers did tend to limit your options.

Part of the problem is that summoner is one of those things like shapeshifter, cool and evocative, but tends to be associated with myriad class archetypes rather than being it's own.

So several classes tend to split summoning between them rather than there bing a specific summoner class. Since each class has its own other stuff to be doing, summons are rarely the big focus.
Honestly, I think horde rules might be something akin to what WotC is thinking for 11+ level. Perhaps, instead of having each summon be given its own set of actions (or even sharing those actions of the summoner), a summoned critter needs to be given a purpose, and that translates into a specific mechanical benefit.

For example, say you summon a small animal to act as a decoy to a specific target. It then gets mechanically translated into a debuff on the target, and it has to take an action to kill it (either a save or attack vs some reasonable AC), or the debuff persists. It might be a damage over time effect, a status effect, or some other condition. The more powerful summons might need either multiple saves or require multiple hits. This can become a logistic nightmare, so I overall would suggest the number of active summons be kept low overall, unless you are summoning a "swarm", which would still be considered a single summon. Perhaps make a summon spell require concentration?

While this does make summons more fluffy, I think it makes them more managable also.

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A hoard summoner, which is to say a character that can reasonably have more then one summons active at at time, would have to be an optional class. Balancing such a class is hard, but not impossible. The real problem (and the reason why 4e intentionally avoided it) was that having that many summons slows the game down to much. You end up with one player taking up to much of the playing time because they have so many creatures in the game at once. However, this might be perfectly fine for a small party, where things go much faster in general.

I have no problem with there being some optional classes though. There are classes that have specific game requirements that make them unsuitable as a basic class. Necromancers have this problem for thematic reasons, summoners for mechanical reasons. Other classes have this problem from game balance, 3e bards and paladins are very general classes that don't play well in large parties, and conversely, hyper-specialized types like disarm focused fighters or pacifist clerics play badly in very small parties.

As for classes that where good in 4e that are not covered in Next yet, I would like to see a really defender oriented class. With the fighter moving back to it's roots as a striker class that can do some defending if they want, the game lacks a defender focused class.
You can make a defender fighter in Next, using Protect and Parry. The options past that are limited, though.

I like the dynamic duo of shaman and spirit companion. The shaman spams the companion into existence, and the companion does all the striking. Or defending, if that's how you play it. They remind me of the alchemist from a game called ToME, which had a similar relationship with its golem.
As far as creating a numble fighter who dodges everything goes, right now you could get pretty close to that by playing a fighter and saving all your expertise dice to reduce damage against yourself.  You can describe each roll as a dodge, parry, rolling with a hit, etc.
As far as creating a numble fighter who dodges everything goes, right now you could get pretty close to that by playing a fighter and saving all your expertise dice to reduce damage against yourself.  You can describe each roll as a dodge, parry, rolling with a hit, etc.


Or you could take tumbling dodge.
As far as creating a numble fighter who dodges everything goes, right now you could get pretty close to that by playing a fighter and saving all your expertise dice to reduce damage against yourself.  You can describe each roll as a dodge, parry, rolling with a hit, etc.


Or you could take tumbling dodge.



You could also go for a dexterity optimized fighter. They would have medium armor and the rest of their AC would be from dexterity.
Yeah, a small "horde" of summoned creatures is a cool idea, but I've never seen it really be feasible. Not even for the power thing, it just takes soooo much more time when you double the amount of combatants on your side.



Well when i talk about having a small horde I mean a lot of options not really a ton of things on the field at once.  Consider the earlier idea of summons lasting until the end of your next turn.  Then think of these summons in the player's Arsenal.  Assume there is some sort of penalty to your summon getting killed.

1) Hard hitter but squishy and low defenses.
2) Medium hitter but gives a buff of some kind to allies nearby.
3) Medium hitter but gives a debuff of some kind to the enemy it attacks.
4) Low hitter but very high defesnes and stays in place being a psuedo defender that penalizes things for ignoring it (preferably to do a good bit of damage).
5) Low hitter but has an aura of damage to all things nearby.
6) Low hitter but "pulses" an effect of some kind from the target giving out penalties and what not to enemies near by.

Depending on how you go with it the summoner could be an interesting support class.  Sort of a mix between 4e shaman and a wizard summoner. 


Ok, a good amount of options I can agree with. But limiting numbers just keeps the system on track.
My two copper.
My favorite class that wasn't in 4E?  That's kind of not what I expected from the title of the thread, but:

1) A real Healer class, who can't cast any offensive spells and spends actions on healing.  (The unicorn is optional, but obviously preferred.)

2) The Halfling Whistler, who can literally whistle up a storm but aside from the whistling is just a regular fighter... not as focused on the fighting, obviously, but definitely not an actual spellcaster and with no real overt magical abilities.

The metagame is not the game.

I am hoping for a supplement called Complete Companion which would detail rules for all those NPCs that accompany or aid parties, such as henchmen, animal companions, advanced familiars, paladin mounts, trained animals, exotic mounts, figurines of wondrous power, etc.  Two classes that would be perfect for such a supplement would be a Summoner and a Cavalier. 

I'd like to see a return of the Spellthief as a class.  I always had fun with that one.
Bring back Ghostwalker from 3e Sword and Fist splatbook. That class was awesome!
My two copper.
Yeah playing as the Phantom or Batman is awesome.
Skimmed the last page but what about this idea for balancing summoners... what if their summons have to make a save against any damage they take (Like damaged DDN zombies) or die instantly (Ala Shadow Clones from Naruto) causing a set amount of damage to the summoner? Lower level summons would have a lower bonuses for their damage save but wouldn't cause as much feedback damage to the caster where as more powerful summons would be harder to kill but when they do they'd cause more damage. If each summon causes damage upon death that'll cut back on mass summoning since it's a big gamble especially if the enemies can use area attacks. If the rules for the turns of summonings are simple and make sense then that'll cut back on how much time is spent on each turn for them.
Jeez... so many things. 

Shadowcraft Mage
Arcane Theuge and other dual-caster prestige classes.
Daelkyr Half-Blood
Symbionts
Companion creatures (which they've already talked about as a module, where you either play with them or not).  
A TRUE Necromancer
SPELL-THIEF/UR-PRIEST
Soulknife (as the psionic defender/striker)

Beyond that, I'd like to see the initial theme power or something from 4e come back in 5e Specialties, right now they feel kind of arbitrary, being little more than suggested feat trees with a name.... which isn't innovative, they have always had suggested feats for beginning characters.... meh.

Thinking about this problem with summoned hordes, I was looking at a Necromancer homebrew class that I had worked on pretty thoroughly in 4e that could provide some insights.

Allow me to quote some of the mechanics I implemented. Please note that I had intended to play this class myself and thus, knowing it inside out, I would've been able to act much more quickly than someone who just saw it for the first time. I will admit the minion mechanic is a little complex, but complexity could easily be pared back a bit and introduced in a more graduated fashion. At the time, I was designing it for the 'Shadow Done Right' 4e shadow source wiki, which was rejecting WotC's treatment of the Shadow Power Source as an Essentialized pseudo-power source. Thus, all the Class Traits had to be granted up front (level 1).

I will admit that it probably made my design a bit over-powered, but since they opted to use a different build, I was never able to get feedback, and, to this day, have not been able to playtest it myelf. Still, as a jumping off point, I think it does provide some options, particularly the reciprocal relationship between the caster and the minions (caster takes damage from minion death, yet minions are a bit more durable than 4e 'monster' minions), the limitations of the minions themselves (action dependent on the caster, cannot benefit from items, cannot go out of line of sight/effect of the caster as they are conjurations), and the way I attempted to circumvent power-spikes/action over-use by using very careful wording in he 'Target' line of 'Undead' attack powers (basically, you roll one attack roll with a power for multiple creatures, similar to a burst or blast spell but within range X of your minions, the 'Target' line limits how many creatures you can hit, regardless of your number of minions OR it allows all minions to hit, but it must be against separate targets). Their dailies were based off of 'Summon Demon' Wizard Daily Attack Powers, which I believe were from a dragon article... i.e. that typically had an intrinsic nature that could potentially hurt allies or the caster as well as enemies if not occasionally attended to or planned for. 

Anyway, here is my draft with some selected powers for your perusal:

Homebrew 4e Necromancer
Necromancer 

"I am where life and death converge. I bring life to the dead and death to the living."


Class Traits


Role: Controller. Your undead minions spread across the battlefield, acting as your hands and letting you control the pace of battle, though at times you may affect your foes with more direct shadow attacks. Depending on your choice of class features and powers, you might lean toward defender or leader as a secondary role.
Power Source: Shadow. You have gained your powers by surrendering a portion of your own life and replacing it with pure shadow energy.
Key Abilities: Constitution, Intelligence, Charisma


Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, Leather
Weapon Proficiencies: simple melee, military flail, simple ranged
Implement Proficiencies: fetishes, tomes, weapons with which you're proficient
Bonus to Defense: +1 Fortitude, +1 Will


Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 4
Healing Surges per Day: 6 + Constitution modifier


Trained Skills: Arcana or Religion (your choice). From the class skills list below, choose three more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Arcana, Bluff, Dungeoneering, Endurance, Heal, History, Intimidate, Religion, Stealth.


Build Options: Blight Necromancer, Dread Necromancer, Horde Necromancer.
Class Features: Aspect of Death, Dark Knowledge, Death’s Scholar.



Class Features


Necromancers have the following class features.


Aspect of Death
You command death in all its forms but you are naturally inclined toward a particular Aspect of Death. You gain the create undead and undead sentinel powers. Additionally, after each extended rest, choose one of the following aspects as your active Aspect of Death. Your undead minions gain the benefit of your chosen aspect. Your active Aspect of Death also provides bonuses to certain necromancer powers. Individual powers detail the effects your active Aspect of Death has on them.


Aspect of the Grasping Corpse: Your gaze deadens and your skin takes on a deathly pallor causing you to resemble a corpse. Undead minions created using your create undead power become zombies. Though slow-moving, their brute strength and infectious nature allows you to wreak havoc upon your enemies with blunt force and determination. When you move your zombie minions, you may move them as if they had a speed of 1 + 1 square per tier. Additionally, while you are not wearing heavy armor, you can use your Constitution modifier instead of your Strength modifier when making melee basic attacks with weapons you are proficient with.


Aspect of the Skeletal Warrior: Your eyes become sunken and hollow and your flesh tightens causing you to resemble a skeleton. Undead minions created using your create undead power become skeletons. Though weaker than zombies and less evasive than shades, their nimble bones and variety of magical attacks allow you to adapt quickly to any situation. When you move your skeleton minions, you may move them as if they had a speed of 3 + 1 square per tier. Additionally, while you are not wearing heavy armor, you gain a +1 bonus to speed.


Aspect of the Looming Shade: Your eyes darken and your body becomes enveloped in shadows causing you to resemble a geist. Undead minions created using your create undead power become shades. Though weak, their ability to haunt and evade enemies allows you to dominate your foes by strategically debilitating them. When you move your shade minions, you may move them as if they had a fly speed of 2 + 1 square per tier (hover) and phasing. Additionally, while you are not wearing heavy armor, you gain a bonus to all defenses equal to 1/2 your Charisma modifier against opportunity attacks.


Dark Knowledge
Your studies in ancient texts of anatomy, medicine, virology, and various other topics related to death and suffering have left your mind full of knowledge which others can only dream of. You have wandered to the edge of a dark precipice and stared into the abyss, and the abyss stared back, into the uttermost depths of your soul. You now command knowledge which would wither a normal mortal, using arts others would consider evil and profane to further your own agenda.


At 1st level you choose three at-will attack powers. At least one, but no more than two, of those powers must have the undead keyword. In addition, choose one of the following disciplines for your Necromancer to specialize in:


Necrophagy: Your necromantic studies have gone far beyond the mere reanimation of tissues or the vagaries of soul enslavement. You have delved into the darkest annals of necromantic lore and come away with incredible power. You do not destroy life, you consume death. You gain Toughness as a bonus feat and a +2 bonus to attacks and damage rolls made against undead and shadow creatures. Additionally, you gain the Leech Life encounter power. 


Nethermancy: You have studied intensively the profane arts of Nethermancy until the world of death was opened to you. You can call up the spirits of those who have passed on and compel them to your service. You gain resistance to necrotic damage equal to 5 + 1/2 your level and your attacks against undead creatures ignore resistance or immunity to necrotic damage. Additionally, you gain the Netherstep encounter power. 


Plague Engineering: Your have studies have included herbs, toxins, and diseases which can kill or maim hundreds at a time. Your dark hexes spread curses and contagion which torment your enemies and bring them to Death’s welcoming door. You gain resistance to poison equal to 5 + 1/2 your level and your attacks against undead creatures ignore resistance or immunity to poison. Additionally, you gain the Blight Bringer encounter power.


Death’s Scholar
You have long pursued rituals of great power and forbidden knowledge. You gain a +5 bonus to Religion checks made to identify undead and shadow creatures. You also gain the Ritual Caster feat as a bonus feat and gain the Gentle Repose and Speak with Dead rituals at 1st level (see Players Handbook, pp. 306 and 312). Once per day, you may spend a healing surge to ignore the component cost when performing either of these rituals.



Necromancer Powers


New Keyword: Undead
Many necromancer powers have the undead keyword. An undead minion must be present when you use such a power. If an undead power includes “undead” in its range, you determine line of sight and line of effect from your undead minion’s space, which is also the power’s origin square.


Class Features


All necromancers gain the create undead and undead sentinel powers. Individual necromancers gain either the Blight Bringer, Leech Life, or Netherstep encounter power depending on their choice of Dark Knowledge.


Using Undead Minions:


Undead minions are a unique kind of conjuration created when a necromancer uses their own life energy to give material form to spirits of the deceased which are called forth from the Shadowfell. The being created from this process is in some ways similar to a real creature, though far less independent. Because of this, minions affect and are affected by terrain and the environment as if they were corporeal creatures unless some effect causes them to behave otherwise. Additionally, though minions gain no benefit from using weapons, implements, or any other items, each minion can carry as much weight as you can, but drops all carried items if it is destroyed or dismissed. 


Because your minions are animated by your own life force, you are limited in how many you can control at one time. You can control up to 3 minions at first level, at levels 5, 15, and 25, you gain the ability to control 1 additional minion. Attempts to conjure more minions beyond this limit automatically fail. You may dismiss any number of your undead minions as a minor action. If you choose to dismiss a minion, it discorporates instantly, disappearing back to the Shadowfell and dropping any items or equipment it was carrying.


Likewise, because you share such a bond with your minions, they act according to your will. Minions normally have no actions of their own but, if you have line of sight to one, you may spend actions to command it mentally. When you command a minion, the two of you share basic knowledge but not senses. Minions cannot make melee or ranged basic attacks, have no healing surges, and are normally incapable of flanking, performing complex tasks, or speech. If a minion makes a check, you make the roll using your modifiers and scores.


You may give undead minions the following special commands:

Move Action: You can command any number of minions you control to either: walk up to their speed, shift 1, climb, crawl, escape from a grab, jump, stand up, or squeeze. Alternatively, you may command one minion to move up to twice its speed. Minions cannot run. 
Minor Action: You can command any number of minions you control to either: drop prone, open or close a door, pick up an item, or retrieve or stow an item. 
Free Action: You can command any number of minions you control to either: drop held items, end a grab, make a noise, or make a stealth check. 



Class Powers
Create Undead
You create an undead minion to do your bidding by first calling forth a dead spirit from the Shadowfell and then using your life-force to bond it to a material body wrought of pure shadowstuff.
At-Will ♦ Conjuration, Shadow
Minor Action Close burst 10
Effect: You conjure an undead minion of the type associated with your active Aspect of Death in an unoccupied square in the burst. Minions last until you dismiss them or they are destroyed. A minion occupies 1 square and enemies cannot move through its space, though allies still can. 
Minions can be targeted by attacks, though they have no hit points. If a minion is hit and takes any damage, the minion is destroyed and you take damage equal to 3 + one-half your level. Otherwise, the minion is unaffected by the attack. Minions are immune to disease and poison and are never damaged on a miss or by ongoing damage.
Minions count as allies to you and your allies for the purpose of effects that relate to allies and as undead shadow creatures for the purpose of effects that relate to creatures.
Special: You can control up to 3 minions at first level, at levels 5, 15, and 25, you gain the ability to control 1 additional minion. Attempts to conjure more minions beyond this limit automatically fail. If you choose to dismiss a minion, it discorporates instantly, disappearing back to the Shadowfell and dropping any items or equipment it was carrying.


Undead Sentinel 
As an unwary foe turns its back, your minion lashes out with a sudden ferocity.
At-Will ♦ Undead, Implement, Shadow
Opportunity Action Melee undead 1
Trigger: An enemy leaves a square adjacent to one of your undead minions without shifting.
Target: The triggering enemy. 
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex
Hit: Constitution modifier damage.
Level 11: 2 + Constitution modifier damage.
Level 21: 4 + Constitution modifier damage.
Grasping Corpse: On a hit, the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Skeletal Warrior: The target grants combat advantage until the end of your next turn. 
Looming Shade: On a hit, the target may complete its movement. Once it has, your minion may teleport a number of squares equal to or less than your Charisma modifier toward the target.
Special: You may only make this attack once per minion per round. 


Blight Bringer
You infuse your attack with a deadly contagion.
Encounter ♦  Poison, Shadow
Free Action Close burst 10
Trigger: You hit with an encounter or daily attack power.
Effect: Each target of the attack takes ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends)
Level 11: Ongoing 10 poison.
Level 21: Ongoing 15 poison.


Leech Life
You drain the life energy from enemies around you to fuel your own unnatural vitality.
Encounter ♦  Necrotic, Shadow
Free Action Close burst 1
Trigger: You hit with an encounter or daily attack power.
Target: All enemies in burst.
Attack: Constitution vs. Fortitude
Hit: Constitution modifier necrotic damage.
Level 11: 2 + Constitution modifier necrotic damage.
Level 21: 4 + Constitution modifier necrotic damage.
Effect: You gain temporary hit points equal to the damage done by this attack.


Netherstep
You walk the line between life and death.
Encounter ♦  Shadow
Free Action Personal
Trigger: You hit with an encounter or daily attack power.
Effect: You gain phasing and insubstantial until the end of your next turn, and you may teleport a number of squares equal to or less than your Charisma modifier.



Attack Powers
Swarming Horde
At your command, your undead minions turn their attention to a single foe.
At-Will ♦ Implement, Undead, Shadow
Standard Action Melee undead 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d8 + Constitution modifier damage, plus 1 damage for each undead minion adjacent to the target.
Level 21: 2d8 + Constitution modifier damage.
Grasping Corpse: On a hit, the target is slowed until the beginning of your next turn as long as at least two of your undead minions were adjacent to it when it was hit.


Bone Whip
Sprouting whips of ebon bone and crackling shadow energy, your undead minions attack your enemies at a distance.
At-Will ♦ Implement, Undead, Shadow
Standard Action Melee undead 2
Target: One creature per minion. You may not attack the same target multiple times.
Attack: Constitution vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Constitution modifier damage.
Level 21: 2d6 + Constitution modifier damage.
Skeletal Warrior: You may slide the target 1 square.


Charnel Touch
The touch of your undead minion fills the target with thoughts of death, sapping his will.
At-Will ♦ Implement, Undead, Shadow, Necrotic, Fear
Standard Action Melee undead 1
Target: One creature per minion. You may not attack the same target multiple times.
Attack: Constitution vs. Will
Hit: 1d4 + Constitution modifier necrotic damage. The next attack the target makes before the end of your next turn takes a penalty to the damage roll equal to your Charisma modifier.
Level 21: 2d4 + Constitution modifier necrotic damage.
Looming Shade: If the target is hit, it takes the penalty to the damage roll on all attacks until the end of your next turn.

 

Thanks Wrecan and Matyr. 

Oskar the thing you were looking for is this:

[.spoiler]
[./spoiler]

Without the "." that will give you the drop down window. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
My favorite class that wasn't in 4E?  That's kind of not what I expected from the title of the thread, but:

1) A real Healer class, who can't cast any offensive spells and spends actions on healing.  (The unicorn is optional, but obviously preferred.)

2) The Halfling Whistler, who can literally whistle up a storm but aside from the whistling is just a regular fighter... not as focused on the fighting, obviously, but definitely not an actual spellcaster and with no real overt magical abilities.



I would never play a Healer/White Mage myself, but I have friend who DID play a version of one in 4E (feat that increases your healing but stuns you when you damage an injured creature) and loved it so much he played it in two campaigns.

This archetype (light armor, minimal offense, heals & buffs) really needs to be featured more in D&D, IMO.
I've always wanted a good swordmage/jedi(sans lightsaber)/gish/whater-you-call-it.

Basically a class that wears light to medium armor, relies on weapons for thier primary attacks, and uses magic to enhance their fighting abilities.  There have been several classes that have come close, but none have ever gotten the feel right for me.
IF ANYONE CAN TELL ME THE CODE TO DO A DROP-DOWN WINDOW, I WILL HAPPILY AMEND THIS SO IT DOES NOT TAKE UP SO MUCH SPACE!



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I've always wanted a good swordmage/jedi(sans lightsaber)/gish/whater-you-call-it.

Basically a class that wears light to medium armor, relies on weapons for thier primary attacks, and uses magic to enhance their fighting abilities.  There have been several classes that have come close, but none have ever gotten the feel right for me.



I'm interested to know what you thought 4e did wrong by the swordmage.  What would you have liked done differently?
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
4th ed swordmage didnt feel vey arcane based. Seemed like a fighter with silly powers grafted on.

 Fear is the Mind Killer

 

4th ed swordmage didnt feel vey arcane based. Seemed like a fighter with silly powers grafted on.



Bah.. preposterous.. cant agree less. It finally gives a mystic/magical swordsman feel where the magic and the swordplay are mingled and immersed with one another instead of "pasted on and not really working as a coherent whole." 



 
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

4th ed swordmage didnt feel vey arcane based. Seemed like a fighter with silly powers grafted on.



Bah.. preposterous.. cant agree less. It finally gives a mystic/magical swordsman feel where the magic and the swordplay are mingled and immersed with one another instead of "pasted on and not really working as a coherent whole." 



 



What you don't like being able to channel area spells through a sword like previous editions? You know where you lose half of the utility of the spell and all the range.
I don't care about the arguement stemming from which is better.  Personally I'll stick with 4e for a while yet, but that isn't the point.

The point of the question is to ask what you want to see in Next Classwise that did not make it into, or was done poorly in 4e.

Here is my list:

1) An effective Summoner.  One of the things they didn't do very well in 4e was deal with summoned things and having a character who could amass a small army of magical pets.

2) Having a Dex "defender".  However you want to go about it, but a character whose built in fluff (and yes I know fluff can be mutable) is designed around just not getting hit.  I've always really liked the characters in prose and movies that is just impossible to catch for one reason or another.

I'll add more as we go along, but those are just my 2 to get the conversation started.

I apologize in advance if this has already happened, but I'm new to this part of the forums.



You can't have a balanced game if a caster can summon a small army of pets. It totally destroys the action economy. It would be worse in 5E where bounded accuracy makes low level monsters relevant longer.

About the only way it could be accomplished would be a bunch of AC 10 1 hit point, -2 to attack, 1 damage dealing minion types and even that would break with more than 5-10 of them.



It could work.  Summoning will probably require an action to sustain; summoning a bunch of smaller (lower level) creatures versus a larger (higher level) creature as a single spell action could be balanced in terms of statistics.  Now, it would present a headache to track...  That's a different issue.
4th ed swordmage didnt feel vey arcane based. Seemed like a fighter with silly powers grafted on.



I disagree; I played a swordmage as my first character.  It felt like an arcane character due to power selection.  It was a fun class overall, and one of my favorites.  But then, I thought the fighter felt like an arcane class...  I guess its just a matter of perspective.
Arcane means hidden .. and in that regards any archetypes best practicioners should have abilities that are sometimes mysterious and hidden from the understanding of others.  
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 


You can't have a balanced game if a caster can summon a small army of pets. It totally destroys the action economy. It would be worse in 5E where bounded accuracy makes low level monsters relevant longer.



Maybe, maybe not.  But I bet you could have a fun game.
See, I don't believe that this quest for "balance" is a good thing. 
Dave Arneson considered it the most significant and difficult element of game design... ignoring it gives you CoDzillas and similar issues ... so I think Dave is right.
  Creative Character Build Collection and The Magic of King's and Heros  also Can Martial Characters Fly? 

Improvisation in 4e: Fave 4E Improvisations - also Wrecans Guides to improvisation beyond page 42
The Non-combatant Adventurer (aka Princess build Warlord or LazyLord)
Reality is unrealistic - and even monkeys protest unfairness
Reflavoring the Fighter : The Wizard : The Swordmage - Creative Character Collection: Bloodwright (Darksun Character) 

At full hit points and still wounded to incapacitation? you are playing 1e.
By virtue of being a player your characters are the protagonists in a heroic fantasy game even at level one
"Wizards and Warriors need abilities with explicit effects for opposite reasons. With the wizard its because you need to create artificial limits on them, they have no natural ones and for the Warrior you need to grant permission to do awesome."

 

Dave Arneson considered it the most significant and difficult element of game design... ignoring it gives you CoDzillas and similar issues ... so I think Dave is right.



I agree completely with this.

Since the summoner issue/option has garnered a lot of good discussion I want to make it clear that I don't think giving the summoner extra actions is the way to go about it.  There are just too many pit-falls that way.  Even if you don't worry that it will "imbalance" the game it does take away from the fun of some characters.  I remember playing 3e, or a variation thereof, in high school and it wasn't uncommon for other players to go home at the start of my turn.

The only way that seems both fun and balanced in my perspective so far is the idea of the short lived - do one or two things - then poof summons.  Other than that I don't see a way to get a good number of interesting summons on the field and still be worthwhile. 
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here
Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
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