Magic Item Creation Rules Questions

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Except the healer lacks offensive and destructive spells and wears light armor, no metal armor and can`t have a shield, thus is vulnerable to attack as she lacks overall defensive capabilities that a regular cleric has.

¬¬ what part of only cure as example if a tournament of who heals more in a single day.

remember that a healer can't refuse to heal someone good if you are in a battle and a good enemy mercenary say to the healer "please cure me" the healer need to do.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Which is another reason not to use it.
Personally, if "healing" is so important to you, I think you should just play a crusader (which can effectively heal in combat) or a cleric with Augmented Healing.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Which is another reason not to use it.
Personally, if "healing" is so important to you, I think you should just play a crusader (which can effectively heal in combat) or a cleric with Augmented Healing.

¬¬ waaaa i was only saying that a healer can cure more that a cleric no more is like say a dagger is better to hide that a greatsword is a true but many warriors want to have the greatsword and remember a healer can use that feat as well that Magic of the Land.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Bad analogy - there are "warrior" classes for which a dagger is better than a greatsword - Invisible Blade springs immediately to mind, as do (most) swordsage builds. NOBODY uses the Healer because it's crap. If you insist on a "healing" MAD class for adventuring, you're STILL not going to use it; you're going to use a Favored Soul.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Bad analogy - there are "warrior" classes for which a dagger is better than a greatsword - Invisible Blade springs immediately to mind, as do (most) swordsage builds. NOBODY uses the Healer because it's crap. If you insist on a "healing" MAD class for adventuring, you're STILL not going to use it; you're going to use a Favored Soul.

i was saying that the healer are crap and for it is a great challenge play with a healer in an adventure and i was speak about the commoner warriors of a city (NPCs)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Like I said before: it's not a challenge to play with a Healer - it's a punishment.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Except the healer lacks offensive and destructive spells and wears light armor, no metal armor and can`t have a shield, thus is vulnerable to attack as she lacks overall defensive capabilities that a regular cleric has.

¬¬ what part of only cure as example if a tournament of who heals more in a single day.

remember that a healer can't refuse to heal someone good if you are in a battle and a good enemy mercenary say to the healer "please cure me" the healer need to do.



The part of me that knows that :

A: preventing damage is a better heal then patching up afterwards, Hold Person for instance stops the damage from ever occurring, since both get damage reducing spells, the ability to Stop Incoming damage must be factored in to healing and the Cleric wins hands down.
 
B: The enemy Mercenary who stabs the Healer to death afterwards, not going to do any more healing now.

C: As with A: Adaptability, Spontaneous Casting means the Cleric can Have a multitude of Offensive and defensive and other spells up, and still be able to switch gears back to healing. That means if the Healer starts wants to be prepared with spells that they may need, like Restoration, Shield of Faith, Remove Paralysis, Break Enchantment, True Seeing, Dispel Magic etc, then they don't have all their healing at their disposal.

Preparing only direct healing spells is more then overkill, the Healer will have to prepare other spells for multiple possible contingencies. But unlike Cleric he can't drop those spells. The cleric always has every single spell slot open for a heal spell, a healer doesn't. So for practicle aplications the Cleric really will have more healing available then the Healer

again what part of healing tournament of cure hit points don't understand

1- hold monster dont cure hit points then you gain 0 points if you cast it

2-other point to say that the healer is the more difficult class to play

3-In the turnament at last he need to use only cure spells and if he dont have cure domain he can't change the spells of her domain to cure.

and remember healer can useSpontaneous Healer feat
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
again what part of healing tournament of cure hit points don't understand

1- hold monster dont cure hit points then you gain 0 points if you cast it

2-other point to say that the healer is the more difficult class to play

3-In the turnament at last he need to use only cure spells and if he dont have cure domain he can't change the spells of her domain to cure.

and remember healer can useSpontaneous Healer feat


1.  True, landing Hold Monster on something doesn't give a character back one single hitpoint.  The thing is what could would healing someone 45 hitpoints do if the creature you would have held goes and does 50 poionts of damage when it acts?  The net gain for casting the healing spell instead of stopping the attacker is -5 hitpoints.  Oh, and your character's situation hasn't improved one bit since you cast the spell except you've used up a spell slot.

2.  If you want to suffer under a difficult to play class maybe you should try playing as a commoner or warrior.

4.  More feats spent doing something less useful means more wasted feats.  Why would you spend a feat as a Healer to do what a Cleric can do for free? 
again what part of healing tournament of cure hit points don't understand

1- hold monster dont cure hit points then you gain 0 points if you cast it

2-other point to say that the healer is the more difficult class to play

3-In the turnament at last he need to use only cure spells and if he dont have cure domain he can't change the spells of her domain to cure.

and remember healer can useSpontaneous Healer feat


1.  True, landing Hold Monster on something doesn't give a character back one single hitpoint.  The thing is what could would healing someone 45 hitpoints do if the creature you would have held goes and does 50 poionts of damage when it acts?  The net gain for casting the healing spell instead of stopping the attacker is -5 hitpoints.  Oh, and your character's situation hasn't improved one bit since you cast the spell except you've used up a spell slot.

2.  If you want to suffer under a difficult to play class maybe you should try playing as a commoner or warrior.

4.  More feats spent doing something less useful means more wasted feats.  Why would you spend a feat as a Healer to do what a Cleric can do for free? 

1- A healer can CURE more Hit points that a Cleric of the same level in the same day????

2- Commoner is a NPC class and the Warrior PC class are a powerful class like the warblade

4- Because you can do it with all of your spells and should maybe because you not are a cleric maybe a druid or all the other Divine Spell Casting and a neutral cleric can use this feat too to gain Spontaneous Cure and Inflict, is like say that a mage gain levels in warrior class or PC to gain better combat bonus instead of be a warrior only all have a reason.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma.

1: You can't heal a dead man. Hold person stops an enemy from doing a full round of damage to a PC, possibly killing him.  So a Cleric who prevents damage and then casts Cure Minor Wounds for 1 hp, heals more hp then a Healer standing over a dead body.

If you run a contest on how much they heal for, then you need to do enough damage to meet or exceed their healing capacity, that level of damage will kill, so the real comparison is not on the number of hp's healed, but on the number of HPs the party has (and how many are alive) at the end of the day.

If at the end of the Day the Cleric's party is at Full HP, he still has spells left and the Healer's Party is low on HP, has a dead member, and the Healer is out of spells, then does it matter that the Healer cured 12,000 hp and the Cleric only 2,000 hp? The winner is the Cleric.

2: In Contrast the group with the Cleric can face more difficult encounters and chalenges. being more difficult to play is relative to the chalenges you can face. Difficult also means boring. You want to be difficult fighting orcs or chalenging fighting dragons?

3: Again refer to the first point. if you are going to challenge them to a Heal off, then you need to do enough potential damage to the party to meet or exceed their healing capacity. 


Here is how you would run this contest: 

First, take the Incoming damage vs the Healing and the HP capacity of the PCs vs their outgoing damage, with Chalenging encounters. Run the encounters until the Healer is out of spells.

Now take the same party and swap the Healer out with the cleric and run the same encounters against them.

And when the Healer's party is dead and the Cleric's party is still standing, who does a better job of healing?


   

1- A healer turnament only give you 1 point per damage cured, ang again the question is a healer can cure more hitpoints in a single day that a cleric of same level ??? (try to answer or is a very difficult question???) is a single question of yes or not i was saying that the healer not is as practiced as a cleric.

And if you going to say that then you need Add the barbarian the Archer and the Spellcaster because can kill the monster very fast before deal damage at last in your terms they are the best healers.

2- I want difficulty to kill the dragon, some class are powerclass like the warblade that are more powerful that other class and some class are underpower like the healer is like the Handicap in the fighting games, not is the same personal achievement win a battle again a dragon with a powerful character that with a underpower character like not is the same play fifa and win to the neighbor with a team of 5 starts that with a team of 1/2 start

3- Sorry again if you do it then a warrior and a spellcaster can entry in a healer turnament as example if you put 10000 goblins warriors lv 50 the spellcaster can use celerity and  teleport and prevent all damage.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, you ever hear the phrase "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? That's the point everyone is trying to make; damage PREVENTED is worth more than damage CURED. And "Warrior" is the name of an NPC class, too.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, you ever hear the phrase "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"? That's the point everyone is trying to make; damage PREVENTED is worth more than damage CURED. And "Warrior" is the name of an NPC class, too.

yes but if you go to a tournament you'll gain nothing with prevention unless your prevention was prepare only cure spells.

again you can't responde? is like say a wizard have poor base attack that a warrior (PC class) of her same level.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Respond to what, you stupid troll?! If somebody didn't take damage, they didn't NEED to be healed. Period; stop; end of story. Quit focusing on one stupid point that you're trying to make and has already been debunked, multiple times, by multiple people.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Respond to what, you stupid troll?! If somebody didn't take damage, they didn't NEED to be healed. Period; stop; end of story. Quit focusing on one stupid point that you're trying to make and has already been debunked, multiple times, by multiple people.

troll?? you are the one to have "evasion from Easy Question" yours are the ones because is a easy question and you dont what to give me the reazon that a healer can cure more Hit Points that a Cleric of the Same Level

i dont ask if the healer is better as the healer of a party i only do a specified question and again if you want make a CLERIC build and describe the max Amount of HIT POINTS that can cure in a single day of the level you want and i do the same with a healer.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Ok Oma, is this what you want to hear?  The Healer can restore more actual hitpoints of damage per day then any other character of the same level.  You know what, if the Healer has the same number of spells that a cleric gets (or perhaps even more, I don't own the Healer's sourcebook) AND has some class benefit that lets those spells restore more hitpoint it will heal more hitpoint in damage.  Perhaps a cleric with the right domains and feats can restore as many hitpoints but I actually think many of us will admit that a Healer can restore a lot of hitpoints.

The problem is that restoring hitpoints is BAD STRATEGY.  Which of these scenarioes is the better way to adventure?
1.  Monster hits party member.  Healer restores damage done.  Monster damages party member.  Healer restores damage.  This continues until Healer is out of spells as it is just trying to keep up to the Monster's damage.  When the Healer runs out of spells monster just smacks party member until dead.

2.  Monster hits party member.  Cleric casts Hold on Monster.  Monster can't do anything.  Cleric smacks down monster.  Cleric then heals damage.

Most of us are going to say situation #2 is the preferable choice.  It heals far fewer hit points of damage but uses far few resource to win the encounter while the first choice blows everything just to stay even.  Healing during combat is usually a very bad thing to do and there have been entire threads devoted to showing that.

If you're just looking at someone who is standing around during a tounament offering healing then your Healer may be able to provide more hitpoints of damage restoration.  I will also tell you this, if there is a Cleric at that same tournament who was offering damage prevention assistance I'd bet the tournament "winners" visited him a lot more then they'd ever visit the Healer.  Even if the Cleric isn't directly acting against the opponent he can do things that will prevent damage from ever happening in the first place and if one opponent is losing hitpoints faster then the other who do you think is going to win the fight?


The problem is that i was saying that, a healer not are good as a Cleric in a party as healer but as i was saying again the healer is the best City Medic not the best healer Adventure.

I agree with all but i was in the fact of Healing hit points and yours start saying other things that dont have to do to "how many hit points can cure in a single day".

And with all of this if you make have fun and challenge because i will assume that all players here have sufficient level to make Overpower Characters that dont have the Challenge unless you play PVP
then under this line if you use a poor Class and try to do the best you get the Challenge and the fun and the Personal achievement to do the same that other player but with a low Powering Character as example not is the same appreciation for a common person that Climb the Everest that the one from a invalid person.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The problem is that i was saying that, a healer not are good as a Cleric in a party as healer but as i was saying again the healer is the best City Medic not the best healer Adventure.

I agree with all but i was in the fact of Healing hit points and yours start saying other things that dont have to do to "how many hit points can cure in a single day".

And with all of this if you make have fun and challenge because i will assume that all players here have sufficient level to make Overpower Characters that dont have the Challenge unless you play PVP
then under this line if you use a poor Class and try to do the best you get the Challenge and the fun and the Personal achievement to do the same that other player but with a low Powering Character as example not is the same appreciation for a common person that Climb the Everest that the one from a invalid person.


Then it is time to stop this madness.

Besides going wildly off topic at some point you appear to be looking at a character from a completely different perspective and for a completely different role.  When most of use see a character we all think "how does it fit into a party of adventures" and in that respect the Healer SUCKS.  If you want an NPC band-aid then the Healer can certainly fill that requirement.  I mentioned this some time ago but if you look at the Healer as an NPC class just like the Expert, Warrior, and Adept it will fit in with that group fairly well.  Almost no player would ever use those classes for his PC but they are classes a DM may want to use for all kinds of reasons. 
A heal cast on a person with full HP heals for 0 HP. You can only restore HP to an appropriate target that has damage.

Therefore to measure what Your healer can do he has to be healing a target that is taking sufficent damage that the complete heal will apply to it. That is a target that is always below full HPs.


We will keep this simple with 2 Fighters being healed by a Healer vs 2 enemies at a time who come in waves after each group is killed. back to back fights.

Because the Fighters will have AC and the enemy has attacks, You need to look at the average damage vs the average heal. As you can well imagine the enemy might do little to no damage on one round and then score a couple of critical hits the next for max damage, so the Fighters will always be taking a range of damage and the Healer will be healing for a range of HPs back.

This also means there is always the posibility of one of the Fighter's being killed. In whch case the remaining fighter will take all the damage from both creatures and have to kill both on his own (rapidly increasing his chance of being killed as well)

Then continue these waves of attacks until the Healer runs of of spells or is killed.


Then repeat with the Cleric in place of the Healer under the same conditions, until the Cleric reaches to the point that the Healer ran out of Heals or was killed.

Compare what healing capacity they have left at that point. Because facing the same content, after the healer has ran out of spells, with party memebers. The Cleric's group will be alive and well and still going with plenty of healing left.


There are 2 different ways of comparing them Oma, you could compare how many heals the Healer cast vs the Cleric.

Or you could compare how many Heals the Cleric has left after the Healer has ran out.
I think I finally understand where the argument is coming from:

Oma believes that a character that can do everything (or close to it) is the superior character, even if the character sucks at everything.  Everyone else believes that a character that is fairly specialised (in one or two areas and lacking in all others) is the superior option.

Oma, all of the characters that you listed that 'can do everything' (level 8 Fighter - page 2, Yashira - page 3, Azaliatha - page 8) are all trying to do too much...and, as a result, end up sucking at all of them.  Healing is reactive (which means it is useful only after damage is taken or a status is inflicted), so it's useless if the fight is over before it's needed;  control abilities are proactive (which means they're more useful before the enemy takes its action), so they're always useful.


Oma, see what happens if you trim the uselessness (UMD, UPD, etc), boost your character's strength(s), and trust the other party members to do their jobs...you may be surprised at how much better you mesh with the group.



As for my Healer build, I'm still working on it.  It'll use no third-party books (even though I've got a few) and won't have much in the way of equipment (since my magical item list isn't all that full), but it'll do just fine at two jobs.   
I think I finally understand where the argument is coming from:

Oma believes that a character that can do everything (or close to it) is the superior character, even if the character sucks at everything.  Everyone else believes that a character that is fairly specialised (in one or two areas and lacking in all others) is the superior option.

Oma, all of the characters that you listed that 'can do everything' (level 8 Fighter - page 2, Yashira - page 3, Azaliatha - page 8) are all trying to do too much...and, as a result, end up sucking at all of them.  Healing is reactive (which means it is useful only after damage is taken or a status is inflicted), so it's useless if the fight is over before it's needed;  control abilities are proactive (which means they're more useful before the enemy takes its action), so they're always useful.


Oma, see what happens if you trim the uselessness (UMD, UPD, etc), boost your character's strength(s), and trust the other party members to do their jobs...you may be surprised at how much better you mesh with the group.



As for my Healer build, I'm still working on it.  It'll use no third-party books (even though I've got a few) and won't have much in the way of equipment (since my magical item list isn't all that full), but it'll do just fine at two jobs.   

yes but that player are Multipurpose then can survive or at last face any adversity.

The fighter Lv 8 and Yashira try to show that a Fighter with Cha 8 can still use UMD well and still do her main purpose and Azaliatha is a try to do a healer class Multipurpose (very hard) remember that a high level you need magic as example a standard warrior without equipment can't do nothing again a standard high level sorserer without equipment and in many Adventures some player want PVP for me a character that can survive alone is the best but try to do it with a low tier have more achievement.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, now you're backtracking and saying that your intent was to make a PvP survivor. I still maintain that any of the builds you've posted so far can beat my Revenant Eternal Blade in PvP. And that has no innate casting and no UMD (but can use Ranger wands).
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, now you're backtracking and saying that your intent was to make a PvP survivor. I still maintain that any of the builds you've posted so far can beat my Revenant Eternal Blade in PvP. And that has no innate casting and no UMD (but can use Ranger wands).

yes but your character cant beat a dread necromancer well building.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Neither can a Healer. Everyone already knows that a mundane doesn't stack up against a true caster, so why even bring it up?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Neither can a Healer. Everyone already knows that a mundane doesn't stack up against a true caster, so why even bring it up?

Sorry but the healer at last can survive again a negative energy character but in Lv 20 your character  i don't think so
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oh, so, since your Healer can survive negative energy effects (but lose initiative and die the first round anyway), it's a superior build? Put up or shut up, dood.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oh, so, since your Healer can survive negative energy effects (but lose initiative and die the first round anyway), it's a superior build? Put up or shut up, dood.

your character can die still in the first turn as well like all characters first because if the dread necromancer let you start you need waste your first turn to put the oil and you can't defead a dread necromancer with only damage because gain the Deadless ability like the barbarian with a spell
combo and can do a lot of powerful spell and with a PC combo can do a lot of MM with that Spells

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Necromancers aren't always fully invested in negative energy (though most of their abilities are tied to it), so they'll have more flexibility in how they wipe the floor with your 'Healer'.

Oma, there's really no reason to be running around this game trying to 'solo' it (unless you're DM and player all in one), so there's no reason to make a jack-of-all-trades (and make them horribly);  there's almost no situation that would require your Fighters to break out a scroll or wand (especially if you've already got a party member that's more set up for UMD)...and there's almost no reason for a squishy caster class to unsheath a weapon and wade into melee.  Just because a character can doesn't mean that they should
Necromancers aren't always fully invested in negative energy (though most of their abilities are tied to it), so they'll have more flexibility in how they wipe the floor with your 'Healer'.

Oma, there's really no reason to be running around this game trying to 'solo' it (unless you're DM and player all in one), so there's no reason to make a jack-of-all-trades (and make them horribly);  there's almost no situation that would require your Fighters to break out a scroll or wand (especially if you've already got a party member that's more set up for UMD)...and there's almost no reason for a squishy caster class to unsheath a weapon and wade into melee.  Just because a character can doesn't mean that they should

maybe you need read the description and the abilities of a dread necromancer class he are invested in negative energy Tongue Out, and these things are extras and about the healer well maybe he got the adventage but still again a incredible achievement and at last maybe he can't kill the healer in a single turn.

And in many adventures all player think first in themselves above the rest as example the rouge steal all the treasure or the more strong character say "if you dont do it i will kill you" or players that do plots again others, ETC. a party of all care with others is too hard to make especially when they come to different points of view about an action or event.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Uh-uh, dood. You wanted to PvP a Healer. That's what i was talking about: your PvP Healer against my PvP Reveternal Blade. If you want to change to a TN, I can change, too.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Uh-uh, dood. You wanted to PvP a Healer. That's what i was talking about: your PvP Healer against my PvP Reveternal Blade. If you want to change to a TN, I can change, too.

if you like what i dont have nothing to lose with a Single Healer class Only agains a full Building maybe a single hit poin damage is sufficient disgrace to your character and what is TN ??? True Neutral???
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
How many Queens do I need to Initiate PhreaDog Sequence amongst the Frivulous ChambahhDOGS of yesteryear???? HOW MANY ****ING QUEENS DO I NEED????
Second answer first: I don't know why, but for some reason I derped and thought the class name was True Necromancer. :dunce:
I don't understand what you meant by the first part.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
  And in many adventures all player think first in themselves above the rest as example the rouge steal all the treasure or the more strong character say "if you dont do it i will kill you" or players that do plots again others, ETC. a party of all care with others is too hard to make especially when they come to different points of view about an action or event.



Describing yourself?

BTW, how does the color red steal the treasure? Wouldn't a Rogue steal it first? 

If you are playing a character for PVP, then you need to be absolutely specialized for optimal use, if nything the Fighter needs to be able to get in toe to toe and lay the smack down before anyone blinks. Muck around with a wand? at level 20 those are toys. You need to finish/neutralize the others and the only way to do that is to be able to overwhelm them with your core abilities.


Second answer first: I don't know why, but for some reason I derped and thought the class name was True Necromancer. :dunce:
I don't understand what you meant by the first part.

i dont understand what have to do your character with the TN???? and in my point of view the DN is better because can control a lot, a lot more of Undeads.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
  And in many adventures all player think first in themselves above the rest as example the rouge steal all the treasure or the more strong character say "if you dont do it i will kill you" or players that do plots again others, ETC. a party of all care with others is too hard to make especially when they come to different points of view about an action or event.



Describing yourself?

BTW, how does the color red steal the treasure? Wouldn't a Rogue steal it first? 

If you are playing a character for PVP, then you need to be absolutely specialized for optimal use, if nything the Fighter needs to be able to get in toe to toe and lay the smack down before anyone blinks. Muck around with a wand? at level 20 those are toys. You need to finish/neutralize the others and the only way to do that is to be able to overwhelm them with your core abilities.



toys? in D&D 3.5 exist a lot but alot of powerful spell that can by used in a wand and broken items (i always try to dont use ) like the Belt of Magnificence that break all the rules.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, I call them Toys, because sacrificing 4 attacks (more with great Cleave) and whipping out a wand with a low level spell that the enemy can easily beat the Save and SR DCs, while the Wizard is dropping a Maximized Disintigrate (40d6) or a Meteor Swarm beside you, with a 30 Ability Score (+10 DC to spell's save etc) Greater Spell Focus (+2 Save DC), Greater Spell Penetration (+4 vs SR) Etc Etc....
 
Also your build of a fighter with UMD is level 20. How well can he use a Wand at level 3? How well can he cast from a scroll at level 5 or 8 or 11? How long before this build can actually use these things?
Oma, I call them Toys, because sacrificing 4 attacks (more with great Cleave) and whipping out a wand with a low level spell that the enemy can easily beat the Save and SR DCs, while the Wizard is dropping a Maximized Disintigrate (40d6) or a Meteor Swarm beside you, with a 30 Ability Score (+10 DC to spell's save etc) Greater Spell Focus (+2 Save DC), Greater Spell Penetration (+4 vs SR) Etc Etc....
 
Also your build of a fighter with UMD is level 20. How well can he use a Wand at level 3? How well can he cast from a scroll at level 5 or 8 or 11? How long before this build can actually use these things?

but you can't do always 4 or more attacks, if your oppont are at 2000 Fts or have superior Invisivility or you only have melee weapons and the opponet are flaying and you dont going to use attack spells you going to use buff spells to overcome your weakness as warrior.

and you really need use magic at level 1,2,3,4,5 ??? and this levels the sword and the arrow are the more powerful and you can do it starting level 8 and again the Fighter never use her Skills because all are poors unless you need swim, climb and jump a lot in the adventure.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, investing such a large amount of gear, abilitie scores and feats for something that you only can use occasionally in some special cases, Yes that is a waste and a toy comparibly.

So the first 8 or so levels before you can even start using this in a gimped fashion, that isn't inspiring.

As for the skill points not being wasteful, you are using Feats and your assignment of ability scores to get those Skill points, so Yes that is a very large investment in Int and Charisma and Feats to get the skill points, vs immediate and continual benifit at all levels for putting them into Constitution or Strength. Immediate benifits at all levels to take other feats, Immediate benifits of spending that Gold on other gear.