Magic Item Creation Rules Questions

716 posts / 0 new
Last post
1) Gimme a few hours. I have kids, so I'll have to wait until they go to bed.
2) Huh? You want me to make a character whose primary function is healing? Do I understand that correctly?
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1) Gimme a few hours. I have kids, so I'll have to wait until they go to bed.
2) Huh? You want me to make a character whose primary function is healing? Do I understand that correctly?

1) what little kids??? are almost noon here 0.0

2) not a character only with healer class levels and multipurpose (tank, melee, range, Support, etc.)
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Problem I have with that build is a lack of mobility and Concentration.

Casting a scroll in combat means a AoO and you have a fairly low Concentration check, not to mention Arcane Spell Failure.
 
For healing people in battle you will need mobility, a tumble of 13 doesn`t cut it. DC is 15 on a flat surce moving past enemies at half speed (move 10 to 15)  that simply is not effective nor reliable enough. You need to be able to tumble through opponents and you need to move full speed and in any terrain for that to work reliably enough.

So DC 25 to move through opponents, and -10 penelty to Tumble at full speed, +2 to +5 DC for Terrain, so lets say DC 30 with a -10 penelty to Tumble is what you need to reliably make. And you need to make a seperate Check per opponent.

As far as what you are trying to do, a Rogue or bard are better suited.  An Elf Rogue gets 23 Ranks, Starting Dex of 20 +6 Gloves of Dex, +4 Dex at level 20, for +10 Dex, +2 Jump Synergy, +35 Tumble right out the box. That doesn`t include Acrobatics +2 or Skill Focus +3 or a +10 Ring of Tumbling to crank it to +50 Tumble.

So +35 Tumble with no costs, Rogues get plenty of skill points and uses Dex for everything else so this is a good Rogue build.

Add in Skill Mastery, a Rogue Special Ability and the Rogue can take 10 on Tumble skills even in combat, thats a guaranteed 45 Tumble check in any terrain, against any opponent.

UMD is a Rogue Skill, so with +6 Cha Bonus (easy to do) and +23 Skill and Magic Aptitude +2. Thats +31 UMD out of the box, and +4 for scrolls with Spell Craft and Decipher Script. Add in that +10 UMD item and +41 to +45 UMD is easy to obtain. Again at very little cost as a Rogue is built with the skill and the skill points.
  

A move of 40 is easy to get, So being able to Tuble freely through enemies in any terrain with a 45 Tumbel check and +41 UMD and the Rogue is easily doing this without taking anything from their normal abilities.

And I am not even using the Skill Focus +3 UMD feat or the +20 UMD item you are using, The rogue is doing all the above without really trying.


Now if you really want a Melee Tank that can do all this I can think of better builds, such as a Paladin. This isn`t perhaps an optimal build for a Tank, but it is a fun build.

Paladin with 3 Substitute levels of Mystic Fire Knights at level 4, and Sword of the Arcane Order feat, This will add Bonus Spells as well as add Wizard Spells to the Paladins Spell list, CL=Paladin Levels. Pick up Battle Blessing to cast Spells as a Swift Action

Skilled City Dweller alternative (CityScape) to trade Handle Animal & Ride with Tumble, and the Class alternative Charging Smite to replace your mount. Tumble is now a class skill at no cost (and Charging Smite is more useful IMO in most dungeon settings) Add a +10 Ring of Tumbling and a +33 Tumble is easy to obtain.

Now You have a heavily armored Tank that can Smite, LoHs, Cast Divine and Arcane Spells and use Cure Wands and Arcane Wands and Scrolls and Staffs without a UMD roll. Being able to cast the spells also elliminates the costs involved in constantly relying on Wands and scrolls, especially when you are refering to the more expensive ones.

When You move into Epic Play I would dip a level into Cleric and then pick up Divine Emissary, or continue in Paladin levels


1- I was saying at the start of the battle and if you got a transdimentional scrying glasses you can cast the scrolls from the casting gloves.

2- Use a scroll dont have ASF because the spell already was casted and stored in the scroll.

3- Movility with 61 of AC or 64 if you are defensive????

4- you can cast moment of precence the first round :p and got +15 to your tumble check for a total of +28 +1d6 +1d20 -10 and the synergy +2 for a average of 33 and the tumble DC is increase in 2 you only make a single tumble check

5- Then the rouge and the bard in teh round of the dragon are killed for her powerfull full attack.

6- and still the paladin are out of the range of a fighter as a tank melee character.

7-A Epic fighter can get very fun things maybe overpowering attack in a full attack (maybe level 36)

8- the more important thing all rouge, bard and paladin are the worst id start with Cha of 8
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
2) not a character only with healer class levels and multipurpose (tank, melee, range, Support, etc.)

So, a single-class healer who can tank?
1- I was saying at the start of the battle and if you got a transdimentional scrying glasses you can cast the scrolls from the casting gloves.

Believe it or not, that's completely unnecessary.  Casting glove (singular) says you can use a magic item stored in it as though it were in your hand.
2- Use a scroll dont have ASF because the spell already was casted and stored in the scroll.

True for wands, not true for scrolls.  That's why they're called "spell completion" items.
3- Movility with 61 of AC or 64 if you are defensive????

Wasn't your AC in the 40s a couple posts ago?
7-A Epic fighter can get very fun things maybe overpowering attack in a full attack (maybe level 36)

Thanks, but I'd still take an Epic (almos) anything, especially multi-classed, over a straight fighter.
8- the more important thing all rouge, bard and paladin are the worst id start with Cha of 8

You'd start a red bard and a paladin with a Cha of 8?  No wonder you think they suck!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1: Doesn't really cover emergency casting, also Pre-Fight casting can be done by the casters in a group and you are loosing more strategic opening moves (such as Charging or moving to threaten specific areas)

2: Scrolls are spell completion, casting from a scroll is identicle to casting a spell, interuptions, concentration checks and AoO all apply

3: 61 what?

4: Cast a spell to be able to tumble (rather then some better buff) at the start of every fight? How is that a good build? Best you do is a poor job of what the Rogue, Cleric and Wizard in the party are already doing. Redundant abilities have little to no value to a group.

5: Really? The Rogue who took zero damage from the Dragon's breath weapon dies at the start of the round and the Fighter just takes nothing? The Rogue that gets out of the Dragons reach in a move without provoking any AoO? 

6: This paladin is still in range as a melee Tank as any Fighter, in fact he is specifically equiped. A good many Paladin spells will readily enhance his abilities, as well as awesome saves across the board. And when the Paladin has Fell greatest Foe (no costs from own spell list as a Swift action) and opens with a Charging Smite with Improved Smite against the Colosol Dragon, or casts Cure Serious Wounds as a Swift Action while continuing with his attacks?

7: All the more reason why casting from a wand or scroll is a waste and useless.

8: Who starts a Paladin with a Charisma Score of 8? Who makes a Bard with a low Charisma Score? And a Rogue benifits from putting points in Charisma more then a Fighter. 
   


1- yes, and the other things too

2- sorry but the special scroll entry say "The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll."

3-

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

the Online Glossary add this "To use a spell completion item safely, the caster must be high enough level in the appropriate class to cast the spell already, though it need not be a known spell. A caster who does not fit this criterion has a chance of spell failure."
-but talk about the fail to use the spell from the scroll not the ASF from an armor.

UMD
Use a Scroll
: If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.




what part talk about ASF??? the skill dont have ACP

4- AC 41 +20 (combat expertise) +3 (defensive) = 64

5- when a fighter can kill you only with a single hit at epic levels then is best the fighter and more if he can use UMD and UPD to suppor the protection (greater teleport, nondetection, greater plane shift, mind blanck, Energy Immunity)
 
6- is the same i was saying, this fighter use the CHA 8 described for him and still can use well the UMD skill and do her job.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, casting a spell from a Scroll is just like casting it from Memory.  Both methods have all the same "pre-casting time" stuff taken care of because memorizing/preparing a spell is the same as having a "spell that is almost finished being cast," just like a scroll is.  Considering how much you like making connections like this when it serves your purpose I'm really surprise you missed this.

Using UMD may not cause you to roll ASF but casting the spell from a Scroll you hold might.

4.  I'm not sure what the number relates to but you should remember that Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively are going to mean you are NOT using UMD in those rounds.  You need to be making an attack, and melee attack with CE, to utilize those AC boosters.

Maybe I'm all alone in this but if I really want my Fighter to be able to use the items I could use through UMD I think I'd just do a little bit of multiclassing instead.  It may cost me a point or two of BAB but I think a Fighter4/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/Warpriest6 could be just as effective as a Fighter20 build around the idea of using UMD.
 
Oma, casting a spell from a Scroll is just like casting it from Memory.  Both methods have all the same "pre-casting time" stuff taken care of because memorizing/preparing a spell is the same as having a "spell that is almost finished being cast," just like a scroll is.  Considering how much you like making connections like this when it serves your purpose I'm really surprise you missed this.

Using UMD may not cause you to roll ASF but casting the spell from a Scroll you hold might.

4.  I'm not sure what the number relates to but you should remember that Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively are going to mean you are NOT using UMD in those rounds.  You need to be making an attack, and melee attack with CE, to utilize those AC boosters.

Maybe I'm all alone in this but if I really want my Fighter to be able to use the items I could use through UMD I think I'd just do a little bit of multiclassing instead.  It may cost me a point or two of BAB but I think a Fighter4/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/Warpriest6 could be just as effective as a Fighter20 build around the idea of using UMD.
 

1- where is the rule that say you apply the ASF ???? or the one to say that use the scroll with UMD is exactly to cast the spell.

2- in Fighting Defensively you still can do your Full-Attack Action (+3 for 5 ranks in tumble) but yes i miss that you can only waste it if you trigger one attack action, then you only need a item that do celerity to add in the boots for 10 000 gps Pluss other 10 000 gps of panacea then for maybe 25 000 gps you gain a boots that give you an extra standar action 1 time per day.

3-But you EXP penalties and your ML or CL will be lower and this example come with a single fighter class with 8 of cha.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- where is the rule that say you apply the ASF ???? or the one to say that use the scroll with UMD is exactly to cast the spell.

You should read up on the use of Scrolls:  

Activate the Spell

Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.


They you have it as clear as day.  When you use a scroll it is just like casting the spell when it comes to ASF.
3-But you EXP penalties and your ML or CL will be lower and this example come with a single fighter class with 8 of cha.

What XP penalties are those?  I'm assuming that character has "favored class Any, Fighter, or Wizard" all of which will mean to mutliclass penalties.   If not I could easily dump two levels of Fighter for two more PrC levels and completely avoid any issues with multiclass penalties.

Perhaps I'm mixing up threads but maybe I'm missing something because this character could use all wands and any staff without issue.  As for his Caster Level I can say that for WIZ his CL is going to be 18 as AbC 5 sets it to his BAB.

2) not a character only with healer class levels and multipurpose (tank, melee, range, Support, etc.)

Oh, so you want a single class character who can do all of those?  I'll give you 2, and just for **** & giggles, I'll let you pick the race.  
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
2) not a character only with healer class levels and multipurpose (tank, melee, range, Support, etc.)

Oh, so you want a single class character who can do all of those?  I'll give you 2, and just for **** & giggles, I'll let you pick the race.  

the race as you want only need be a healer
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

1- hooo is right i found this rule in the RC well still you can use a magical item to di it as still spell like BRACERS OF ARCANE FREEDOM

2- Still the Example is in a Solo Fighter With Cha 8 building and in your last example you dont use the Abjurant Campion
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
 1- hooo is right i found this rule in the RC well still you can use a magical item to di it as still spell.

2- Still the Example is in a Solo Fighter With Cha 8 building and in your last example you dont use the Abjurant Campion


1.   BUT YOU SAID ASF DOESN'T APPLY TO SCROLLS!!!!!!!!  

No changing you mind no that you've been presented with irrefutable proof that ASF still DOES apply when using scrolls.  Oh, and how are you going to use Still Spell with your scrolls?  I'm not sure you can apply MM to a spell before placing it in a scroll but if you can that boosts the levels, and with it the cost, needed for that scroll.  Also, what magic item are you going to use with UMD to apply Still Spell to your scrolls?  Are you sure it actually works instead of just thinking it works?  Even if you can find an item that can apply Still Spell to a scroll that is still more "treasure" you are feeding to an unsuitable task.

2.  What build are you refering to?  My initial build was Ftr4/Clc3/Wiz2/AbC5/WP6 which DOES contain Abjurant Champion; what do you think the AbC means?  My "revision" to eliminate ANY possibility of multiclassing penalties drops two levels of Fighter for more PrCs; this means it becomes Ftr2/Clc3/Wiz2/AbC5/WP8 which actually boost the clerical casting potential.

I don't know what a "solo Fighter" with CHA 8 has to do with anything.  My build can easily have CHA 8 and is it my fault if I follow the rules and use multiclassing instead of foolishly tieing myself to a relatively poor character who you seem to be trying to use for something it isn't meant for.
 
Fine:  Human, with 28-pb

14/8/12/10/16(+5)/14
Cleric 20
1: Extend Spell, Zen Archery*
3: Persist Spell
6: Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell)
9: Extra Turning
12: Improved Toughness
15: Extra Turning
18: Power Attack

Gear: Seriously?  It's not like I need anything.  But, just because...
+5 Adamantine Collision Greatsword w/ Greater Truedeath Crystal
+5 Mithril Ghost Ward Plate of Nimble Quickness
+5 Mithril Buckler of Arrow Deflection
+5 Hank's Bow
Greater Reach Metamagic Rod in Casting Glove
+5  Tome of Wisdom
Belt of Battle Growth
+6 Wis item
Nightstick
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Cloak of Resistance

Or how about:
Human
8/8/14/12/18/10
Druid 20

1: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
3: Improved Toughness
6: Natural Spell
9: Improved Natural Attack (Claw)
12: Dragon Wild Shape 
15: Reach Spell
18: Companion Spellbond

Equipment: Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Ring of Protection +5
+5 Beasthide Dragonscale armor
Greater Chain Metamagic rod in Casting Glove (Wilding clasp) 
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You can't use MM feats to cast a scroll, only while scribing them.

As for the Paladin build I suggested, I know it works because I played one. However I only outlined the basic build, I didn't optimize it so it is premature to compare hp and AC like that  
Use a scroll dont have ASF because the spell already was casted and stored in the scroll.
 the more important thing all rouge, bard and paladin are the worst id start with Cha of 8




It's these 2 lines that trouble and confuse me. First casting from a scroll, is the same as casting a spell, so it provokes AoO and can be interupted if hit in melee and has Arcane Spell Failure from armor. You will need to cast defensively, and for that you will need yet another skill built up.

It also stops the fighter from attacking then enemy, so when you talk about the fighter's strength and his weapons you are forgetting that you are nulifying up to 4 attacks for each round you use a scroll or wand. If you start combat by casting a spell from a wand or scroll you are doing that instead of say a charge attack or moving tactically for other advantage of position.

If you withdraw from combat with tumble and then return to combat, you are effectively out of the fight for 2 or 3 rounds.

This isn't a problem only for your build Oma, it is a problem in general for classes like Paladins and Rangers, you can cast a spell, or you can attack, you can't do both at once.


Still not sure what you are talking about Paladins and Bards with an 8 charisma, I would counter that a fighter who neglects Strength and Constitution is in a bad was as well. Any Paladin or bard will have a decent Charisma Score.

If you want to go that tactic, a Melee Fighter/tank that can cast both Arcane and Divine Spells, use wands and Scrolls, then the Paladin/Mystic fire Knight build that I presented here is what you would want. It saves you the cost of the gear/feats for UMD by getting rid of the need altogether. Paladin that adds Wizard spells to his spell list means he can use all Wizard Spells/Scrolls and Staves, as well as the divine spells on his list, additionally being able to cast those spells himself means you don't have to worry about the cost of expendibles.

To handle the issue of Do I cast a spell or Do I attack is settled with Battle Blessing, a feat that allows the Paladin to cast his spells as a Swift action. Meaning he can both cast a spell and take his normal actions in the round.

So while your fighter has to make several rolls to cast a spell from a costly scroll, UMD and concentration and ASF checks and no melee attacks, keep in mind that this Paladin across from him can drop a 10d6 Fireball into a group of enemies or Bestow Curse or Shout, or heal Himself with Cure Serious Wounds, or cast a Combat Buff (Enlarge, Fell the Greatest Foe, Undead bane Weapon, Holy Storm, Holy Sword, Draconic Might, Fire Shield)  as a Swift action and then make his melee attacks like normal on top of that. Or cast Rhino's Rush and Charge the enemy in the same round, or any other combination. 


1- Bracers of arcane freedom allow you to cast arcane spells without the normal complex gestures required. When you activate these bracers, you omit the somatic com­ponent of the next arcane spell you cast before the end of your turn (as if applying the Still Spell feat to it, but without alter­ing the spell's level or casting time). This effect functions two times per day.

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

2- oo is right i dont see the AbC Tongue Out but still your Divine CL are reduce as well
BA +18 (Arcane CL 18)
Divine CL 7 (if you got a feat 11)
and in Epic you will lower your power

Yes I use a character that assumed to not is used to do it and with a lower Cha if I a want make a character to use UMD I will used other Classes and PCs, but here is about that a standard warrior that can use UMD and still do her job well.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.


Cleric???? i was saying healer the poorest class of D&D pag 8 of Miniature Handbook.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Why would I use that? Not once did I advocate using a class that sucks at what it was designed to do.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Why would I use that? Not once did I advocate using a class that sucks at what it was designed to do.

well i make a figther with Cha 8 and UMD, and from the start i was saying healer class the more Forgotten class of D&D
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
And? The ENTIRE point of saying your fighter sucks is that it tries to be a jack-of-all-trades, and sucks at all of them. The Healer sucks right of the box; that's why it's been forgotten, just like the Divine Mind.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1- Bracers of arcane freedom allow you to cast arcane spells without the normal complex gestures required. When you activate these bracers, you omit the somatic com­ponent of the next arcane spell you cast before the end of your turn (as if applying the Still Spell feat to it, but without alter­ing the spell's level or casting time). This effect functions two times per day.

Two things about those Bracers:  The first is that they only function twice per day.  The second is the "arcane spell you cast" isn't the same as the arcane spell you use off of a scrolll; this simply means that your solution doesn't work at all depending a little on how the DM rules things.  Oh, before you try telling me that a "spell you cast" is the same as a "spell you use from a scroll" you should realize that is complete bull because if they WERE the same then you'd get to apply all of your other spellcasting attributes to the spell (higher CL, things that boost save DC, and such) to any scroll you used instead of using the parameters set up by the scroll.
2- oo is right i dont see the AbC but still your Divine CL are reduce as well
BA +18 (Arcane CL 18)
Divine CL 7 (if you got a feat 11)
and in Epic you will lower your power

Yes I use a character that assumed to not is used to do it and with a lower Cha if I a want make a character to use UMD I will used other Classes and PCs, but here is about that a standard warrior that can use UMD and still do her job well.

If you missed something that obvious then I wonder what else you miss when you read things. 

When you start looking at epic characters you can just start throwing out a whole punch of things.  And maybe I shouldn't ask but I'm lowering my power compared to what?  My example is far from optimized and in epic levels you'll either need an good spellcaster with spells to power through things or you're spells are mostly going to be support and there the CL behind them doesn't matter so much.

My examples CLs may mean that it has to work at using scroll but will still have an easier time then your UMD guy.  When my character most likely has a spell on a class list it will just take a Caster Level Check (CL +d20) against the scroll (scroll CL+1) to use it while you need a UMD check against a DC = 20+CL to use the same scroll.  This simply means that your UMD modifier needs to +19 above my CL just to have the same chance to use a given scroll.  Oh sure there are MORE things you could buy to boost your UMD but then there are also things I could use to boost my CL.

Although he'll probably come on here himself Mr.C said that you can pick the RACE for the "do everything" character you claim to want while he can simply pick the class.  If you want to saddle the single class character with a poor class you should already know the results will be a train wreck.




1- Sorry but not, the rule of Magic item say that if you cast from a magic item you set the DC as the minimmum and the scroll entry say that the scroll have her own CL.


Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).

2- Compared with a standard Spell caster, at level 30 you will lower your own CL and you can't use Spells from other Spells list like dreach necromancer

3- i was saying the class from the start
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
About the Bracers, this is the line that is important here:

(as if applying the Still Spell feat to it, but without alter­ing the spell's level or casting time)

What this Bracer does is apply the Still Spell Feat to the spell, and it functions like the metamagic rods, it would only apply to spells to which you could use the Still Spell Feat on, that is spells you cast yourself, not Scrolls/Items (just as the metamagic rods don't apply to scrolls) You can't apply a Meta-magic Feat to use a scroll (although you can to scribe the scroll)

When casting from an item, the spell DC is already set, it is only with a Staff that the user sets the DC (special case rules) otherwise it is the item.

About the Bracers, this is the line that is important here:

(as if applying the Still Spell feat to it, but without alter­ing the spell's level or casting time)

What this Bracer does is apply the Still Spell Feat to the spell, and it functions like the metamagic rods, it would only apply to spells to which you could use the Still Spell Feat on, that is spells you cast yourself, not Scrolls/Items (just as the metamagic rods don't apply to scrolls) You can't apply a Meta-magic Feat to use a scroll (although you can to scribe the scroll)


This item dont use still feat, and dont work like that only say that is as if you cast the spell with the Still spell Feat but in her Prerequisites this feat dont appears is only a technical reference remember that you was saying about this.


Bracers of arcane freedom allow you to cast arcane spells without the normal complex gestures required. When you activate these bracers, you omit the somatic com­ponent of the next arcane spell you cast before the end of your turn (as if applying the Still Spell feat to it, but without alter­ing the spell's level or casting time). This effect functions two times per day.
Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, free­dom of movement.
Cost to Create: 1,150 gp, 92 XP, 3 days.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, I was reading the Item Description, It functions "as if applying the Still Spell feat". Which means it applies, as the item states when "You cast" and not "when you use an item" You are activating an item for all intents and purposes here, and very few DMs would allow this.

The ones that do will probably allow all sorts of silly things as well and ponder why it is so hard to DM or challenge a group...
Oma, I was reading the Item Description, It functions "as if applying the Still Spell feat". Which means it applies, as the item states when "You cast" and not "when you use an item" You are activating an item for all intents and purposes here, and very few DMs would allow this.

The ones that do will probably allow all sorts of silly things as well and ponder why it is so hard to DM or challenge a group...

Sorry you are casting from the item the Description only say when you cast.

And what about all you was saying about the prerequisites and the feats, this work with freedom of movement and use the still spell feat as quick technique reference.

And still you don't use any metamagic feat this item not is like Sudden Still that is a metamagic feat this one item that emulate it based in freedom of movement in this case you ignore the Somatic with the Freedom
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, once again you're showing your ignorance. Pretty much every magic item requires a spell, even if it grants/replicates a feat. Take a look at Serpent Armor (MIC): it grants Combat Reflexes, but does it require Combat Reflexes to make? NO. Please try not to make arguments based on stupidity and "this is how I want it to work".
As for healer, I never understood you to have specified the class as healer; only that you wanted a "healer" that could perform other roles. Which I gave you - two of them, in fact.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, once again you're showing your ignorance. Pretty much every magic item requires a spell, even if it grants/replicates a feat. Take a look at Serpent Armor (MIC): it grants Combat Reflexes, but does it require Combat Reflexes to make? NO. Please try not to make arguments based on stupidity and "this is how I want it to work". As for healer, I never understood you to have specified the class as healer; only that you wanted a "healer" that could perform other roles. Which I gave you - two of them, in fact.

I was saying that Mr C was saying that(in other thread), i am under her logic and at last you dont use any metamagic feat in the Scroll the effect of the Bracers affect you not the Scroll and you dont apply any metamagic feat.

And this is an Example of A healer
Azaliatha Famale Elf Healer NG Lv 20

Stats
Show

Str 8 -1 / 14 +2
Dex 14 +2/ 20 +5
Con 12 +1 / 18 +4
Int 10 +0 / 16 +3
Wis 24 +4/ 30 +10
Cha 14 +7/20 +5


Feats
Show

1- Lighning Reflex
3- Zen Archery
6- Improved Toughness
9- Intuitive Attack
12-Craft Contingent Spell
15- Enduring Life
18- Bladeproof Skin


Skills
Show

Use Magical Divice +28 = 11+5+1+10
Use Psionic Divice +28 = 11+5+1+10
Sense Motive 31 = 23 +7+1
Heal 16= 5+7+3+1
Concentration +23=17+5+1
Listen +13 = 0+10+2+1
Spot +13 = 0+10+2+1


Class Feature
Show

Healing Hands
Skill Focus Heal
Cleanse Paralysis
Cleanse Disease
Cleanse Fear
Cleanse Poison
Efforless Healing
Unicorn Companion
Cleanse Blindness
Cleanse Spirit
Cleanse Petrification
New Limb
New Life


Items
Show

Book + 5 Wis (137 500 Gps)
Luck Stone (20 000 Gps)
Shirt +10 UMD and UPD (20 000 Gps)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64 000 Gps)
Monk Belt (13 000 Gps)
Globes of Perfection +6 (144 000 Gps)
Head Band of Perfection +6 (144 000 Gps)
Ring of evasion (25 000 Gps)
Cloack of resistance +5 (25 000 Gps)
Ring of Protection +5 (50 000 Gps)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50 000 Gps)
Long Sword +4 (32 315 Gps)
Composite +2 Long Bow +4 (32 600 Gps)
200 Adamantine Arrows (915 Gps)
300 Silver Arrows (45 Gps)
300 Cold Iron Arrows (30 gps)
Power Stone Level 6 (Mind Blank) (1650 Gps)
250 Gps In Mundane Items


Combat Data
Show

HP 20d8+100= 194
DR 3/bludgeoning
Speed 30 Fts
BA +10
Grapple + 12
Initiative +5
AC 43 =10+4+10+8+1+5+5 Touch 30 FF 28
Saves F +22, R +19, W +28 (+2 vs Enchantment and immunity to sleep)
Attacks:
Long Sword +24/+19 1d8 + 7
Long Bow +24/+19 1d8 +6
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
It would be helpful if I actually knew what you were commenting on because things get lost and you are so all over the place.
 
1- Sorry but not, the rule of Magic item say that if you cast from a magic item you set the DC as the minimmum and the scroll entry say that the scroll have her own CL.


Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).

2- Compared with a standard Spell caster, at level 30 you will lower your own CL and you can't use Spells from other Spells list like dreach necromancer

3- i was saying the class from the start

1.  Funny, when I look at Activating a Scroll under the scroll entry I see NOTHING about "casting" anywhere.  I see the term "activate" a scroll but no where do I see the "cast a spell from a scroll."  Now I may give you that UMD uses the term "casting a spell from a scroll" but that is NOT the primary source for how scrolls are used which means you need to use the text where it talks about scrolls and how they are used.  I'll point out that the UMD table say "use a scroll" and not "cast a spell from a scroll" because no one "casts" a spell from a scroll but rather the "use" the scroll.  You should look at the Scroll entry again because you do NOT "cast" from a scroll but instead "activate" a scroll.

2.  ????  Compared to a "standard" spellcaster my simple "user of all magic items who can fight" certainly does have a lower CL.  Just to point this out but your UMD guy has NO native Caster Level.  I'm also sure anyone with some sense could increase my sample character's CLs with ten additional levels if wanted into the epic levels.  Hell, I could just add MT10 if I wanted which would be +10 to casting ability on both sides and while the HD suck the BAB and Saves go up just as fast as taking any other class in epic levels.

A Ftr2/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/WarPriest8/UM10 casts as a 17th-level wizard and cleric which isn't too shabby although he'll probably need a little help boosting his ability scores to those levels which shouldn't be hard at 30th-level.

Now my character may not get to use Scrolls from other spellcasting classes but how many spells from a Dread Necromancer am I NOT going to find on the wiz/sor or cleric lists?  I guess I may need to figure out how to throw in some Druid to cast those spells but when it comes to Scrolls I believe that most DMs rightfully assume that Bard, Paladin, Ranger, and even Druids usually have better things to do then make scrolls which means they aren't all that common.

3.  Don't know what that means.  

And this is an Example of A healer
Azaliatha Famale Elf Healer NG Lv 20

Stats
Show

Str 8 -1 / 14 +2
Dex 14 +2/ 20 +5
Con 12 +1 / 18 +4
Int 10 +0 / 16 +3
Wis 24 +4/ 30 +10
Cha 14 +7/20 +5


Feats
Show

1- Lighning Reflex
3- Zen Archery
6- Improved Toughness
9- Intuitive Attack
12-Craft Contingent Spell
15- Enduring Life
18- Bladeproof Skin


Skills
Show

Use Magical Divice +28 = 11+5+1+10
Use Psionic Divice +28 = 11+5+1+10
Sense Motive 31 = 23 +7+1
Heal 16= 5+7+3+1
Concentration +23=17+5+1
Listen +13 = 0+10+2+1
Spot +13 = 0+10+2+1


Class Feature
Show

Healing Hands
Skill Focus Heal
Cleanse Paralysis
Cleanse Disease
Cleanse Fear
Cleanse Poison
Efforless Healing
Unicorn Companion
Cleanse Blindness
Cleanse Spirit
Cleanse Petrification
New Limb
New Life


Items
Show

Book + 5 Wis (137 500 Gps)
Luck Stone (20 000 Gps)
Shirt +10 UMD and UPD (20 000 Gps)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64 000 Gps)
Monk Belt (13 000 Gps)
Globes of Perfection +6 (144 000 Gps)
Head Band of Perfection +6 (144 000 Gps)
Ring of evasion (25 000 Gps)
Cloack of resistance +5 (25 000 Gps)
Ring of Protection +5 (50 000 Gps)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50 000 Gps)
Long Sword +4 (32 315 Gps)
Composite +2 Long Bow +4 (32 600 Gps)
200 Adamantine Arrows (915 Gps)
300 Silver Arrows (45 Gps)
300 Cold Iron Arrows (30 gps)
Power Stone Level 6 (Mind Blank) (1650 Gps)
250 Gps In Mundane Items


Combat Data
Show

HP 20d8+100= 194
DR 3/bludgeoning
Speed 30 Fts
BA +10
Grapple + 12
Initiative +5
AC 43 =10+4+10+8+1+5+5 Touch 30 FF 28
Saves F +22, R +19, W +28 (+2 vs Enchantment and immunity to sleep)
Attacks:
Long Sword +24/+19 1d8 + 7
Long Bow +24/+19 1d8 +6

Yeah, um... what, EXACTLY, can a Healer do better than a Cleric or Druid?  Fight? Cast? HEAL (y'know, since it's right there in the class name)?  The answer to all three is no, which is why it isn't used.  Ever.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls

1- The UMD check let you use the UMD check to Emulate Ablity Score that say you Cast the spell form the scroll

2- Ftr2/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/WarPriest8/UM10 ???Ultimate Magus???? or Mystic Theurge why you need increase the CL of the wizard and other Spontanius Arcane Class???? your BA still are better you only need Divine CL if you had epic levels in the WP class you got epic bonus feats and some epic ability.

3- About make a Healer Class Building
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Yeah, um... what, EXACTLY, can a Healer do better than a Cleric or Druid?  Fight? Cast? HEAL (y'know, since it's right there in the class name)?  The answer to all three is no, which is why it isn't used.  Ever.


A healer is better to heal but only to heal maybe as a City nurse work well but as Adventurer don't.
Is the best class for a player challenge.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
2- Ftr2/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/WarPriest8/UM10 ???Ultimate Magus???? or Mystic Theurge why you need increase the CL of the wizard and other Spontanius Arcane Class???? your BA still are better you only need Divine CL if you had epic levels in the WP class you got epic bonus feats and some epic ability.

Context much?  Since he was talking about using Mystic Theurge, it's pretty safe to assume that he just had a brain fart and intended "MT".
Yeah, um... what, EXACTLY, can a Healer do better than a Cleric or Druid?  Fight? Cast? HEAL (y'know, since it's right there in the class name)?  The answer to all three is no, which is why it isn't used.  Ever.

A healer is better to heal but only to heal maybe as a City nurse work well but as Adventurer don't.
Is the best class for a player challenge.

Um... No.  A Healer is only good at non-magical healing.  If you have a bard, rogue, ranger, paladin, scout, spellthief... Anything with UMD or CLW, it's dead weight.  And what do you mean by "Best for a player challenge"?  Are you attempting to make a class that sucks not suck?  Because you can't.  If you really want to give that a try, do something with the Divine Mind.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1- The UMD check let you use the UMD check to Emulate Ablity Score that say you Cast the spell form the scroll

2- Ftr2/Cleric3/Wiz2/AbC5/WarPriest8/UM10 ???Ultimate Magus???? or Mystic Theurge why you need increase the CL of the wizard and other Spontanius Arcane Class???? your BA still are better you only need Divine CL if you had epic levels in the WP class you got epic bonus feats and some epic ability.

3- About make a Healer Class Building


1.  UMD lets you emulate the ability score that would be needed to cast the spell contained within the scroll. I agree with that because using a scroll generally requires that you would have an ability score high enough to cast the spell.  This does NOT mean that you actually "cast" a Spell from a scroll; you "activate" the spell on a scroll an thus do not apply anything that has to do with your ability to cast a spell when you use it.

Just like you don't use your own CL or ability score to set the DC when you use a Scroll you can't use other things that modify the spell.

2.  I guess did make a typo there as it should be MT instead of UM but you should have known that from the rest of the description.  The whole point of it is that if I want to boost CL for the casting types in Epic it is easy enough to do so.

3.  The Healer class as opposed to making a healer.  You really like punishment because the Healer wasn't even a good class when it came out and some may rank it down with the Warrior or Expert and say it should be an NPC class. 

Is a challenge live a adventure with a Poor class and do it well and sorry but the healer always have cure spell that many of the player never prepared and can cure a lot of Hit Poins and if you talk about Multiclass Characters then  a healer can use it too like UMD
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.

1- Sorry you do first the activation and then the Emulate Ability Score and in this use of UMD you Cast the Spell from the Scroll as is described in this section of UMD

From RULE COMPENDIUM
Emulate Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
Your effective ability score, appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll, is your Use Magic Device check result –15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

And this entry say that you cast the spell.

2- Then why you dont only Increase the Divine CL???

3- Yes Warrior, the Expert and the Spellcaster are powerful classes (GENERIC CLASSES) the healer is the more weakest class of D&D therefore is the best Challenge for a player to use it.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
You are quoting the rules for UMD, not for a scrolls and Spell completion items, so tread lightly because the same rules for using a scroll apply to a rogue and wizard alike. Because "casting a Spell" is different, way different then "perform the finishing parts" of casting a spell. Which is what you are doing when you use a scroll, Completing the spell, that is the finl part of the spell.

Under the rules for Spell Completion Items, that is scrolls, it states

Spell Completion

This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on).

You aren't casting a spell when you use a scroll, you are only completing it.

Under scrolls, it refers to "Activating a scroll" and even has two subheadings "Activation" and "Activate the Spell" not "cast the spell" but Activate the spell.

And  "Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as" and "Using a scroll is like" It is very specific language, and nowhere under Scrolls or Spell Completion does it say or use, the the phrase "Casting a spell from a Scroll"

It does use the phrases "just as" and "is like" when refering to "for purposes of arcane spell failure chance" and "provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as"

But nowhere does it say you are casting a spell, and the sheer volume of times it uses Activate and Use and scroll user weighs in heavily on this.

Is a challenge live a adventure with a Poor class and do it well

No.  It's not a challenge to make a poorly designed class suck slightly less.  It's a punishment.
and sorry but the healer always have cure spell that many of the player never prepared and can cure a lot of Hit Poins and if you talk about Multiclass Characters then  a healer can use it too like UMD

Please, look over that class list again and show me which one is a multiclass.  They are all base classes, and the point is that all of them get either CLW on their spell list or UMD as a class skill.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls