Magic Item Creation Rules Questions

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Little back story first:

Basically I'm starting a new character in a campaign that is level 2 and with my starting cash I was going to buy the belt of healing. This item cost 750 gold and has 3 Daily charges of heal 2d8. My DM feels this item is fairly overpowered for the cost and our level given that a similar costing wand at 750 would only have 30 charges total and do 1d8 healing per cast. Meaning that in 5 days time you will have gotten as much healing out of the belt as you did from the wand and still have more belt uses.


It's been a while since I looked through the magic creation rules but I am not sure how the rules on Daily casting work. I remember the basic squaring rule on the price of + enchanment items as most of the items I made in the past were simply that. On the spell use section the only thing that seems to fit is command word use. Next since it is a daily I am not clear on the divide as it's worded oddly. So the two rules that would seem to apply are as follows.

Command word - Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

So does that mean I would take cost and divide by 3/5 (.60)? Since it's a fraction it would end up increasing the price after command word and the more charges would make it cost less. This makes no sense to me and doesn't fit with prices I've seen on daily use items. The other potential interpertation is divide by 3 then by 5 which ends up making the item extremely cheap.

Anyhow rather speculate more on what is ment by that poorly worded line could someone just outline the math for me. The Healing Belt has +2 skill bonus and 3 charges of cure light wounds. I think caster level is 3 since it's healing 2d8 instead of 1d8. I'd really like to know what the cost to make a similar item would be using the crafting rules. Also like to see the exact formula used and not just cost.
Your understanding of fractions and what "divide" means is flawed, is all.  If you want a fraction of a number, you MULTIPLY the number by the fraction.  You got the .6 fine on your own.  1,800 x .6 gives you that answer.

However, that being said, I'm guessing that wherever you're seeing that 750gp price, that it's a typing error in whatever book or source, because to take a wild guess from what you listed the item as, I'm coming up with 7,500gp.

That's 2 x 3 x 2000 (cure spell) and 2 squared x 100 x 1.5 (skill + added similar power) 

12,000 + 600

12,600 x .6 for the 3/d, even though this should really only apply to the spell part...

I'm thinking that's a 7,560 rounded down to 7,500.

That's my guesswork only. 
Little back story first:

Basically I'm starting a new character in a campaign that is level 2 and with my starting cash I was going to buy the belt of healing. This item cost 750 gold and has 3 Daily charges of heal 2d8. My DM feels this item is fairly overpowered for the cost and our level given that a similar costing wand at 750 would only have 30 charges total and do 1d8 healing per cast. Meaning that in 5 days time you will have gotten as much healing out of the belt as you did from the wand and still have more belt uses.


It's been a while since I looked through the magic creation rules but I am not sure how the rules on Daily casting work. I remember the basic squaring rule on the price of + enchanment items as most of the items I made in the past were simply that. On the spell use section the only thing that seems to fit is command word use. Next since it is a daily I am not clear on the divide as it's worded oddly. So the two rules that would seem to apply are as follows.

Command word - Spell level × caster level × 1,800 gp
Charges per day Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)

So does that mean I would take cost and divide by 3/5 (.60)? Since it's a fraction it would end up increasing the price after command word and the more charges would make it cost less. This makes no sense to me and doesn't fit with prices I've seen on daily use items. The other potential interpertation is divide by 3 then by 5 which ends up making the item extremely cheap.

Anyhow rather speculate more on what is ment by that poorly worded line could someone just outline the math for me. The Healing Belt has +2 skill bonus and 3 charges of cure light wounds. I think caster level is 3 since it's healing 2d8 instead of 1d8. I'd really like to know what the cost to make a similar item would be using the crafting rules. Also like to see the exact formula used and not just cost.

is because this item is for a player level 3 at last.
the division is 5/3 or 5/4 or 5/X

example

Cure moderate wounds CL 3

2X3X1800 = 10 800

3 charges per day

10 800 / (5/3)

10 800 / 1.6 = 6480

Now about the item, this give you +2 heal check that is a cost of 400 gps but in this case maybe only count as 200 gps and have a effect like a staff or wand, this heal not is a cure light wound this only cure the D8 then he can only cure you 4 point of damage in a single day, the item took a important slot that dont let you use belt of str or belt of monk.

then this item for only 800 Gps can cure from 4 to 32 point of damage per day, and the normal price of this item is 1000 gps but with the rules of supply and demand of  the MIC this item have 25% of discount if your DM think that this item is overpower he can put a price of 1250, 1500 or 2000 gps in the standard price of this item but at high level this item is very userless.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Well I am only level 2 so I don't have many choices on what to get, and starting cash is not enough to get even a +1 item.

I figured I would get this and could then work on getting things like +1 AC robes, +1 Deflection Bracers, and other things with the cash I earn. Belt of STR doesn't do me much good unless it's +2, so I can get an aditional +1 attribute bonus, which cost 4K. And the monk belt is 13K, thus putting it well outside of my price range for a LONG time.


Your understanding of fractions and what "divide" means is flawed, is all.  If you want a fraction of a number, you MULTIPLY the number by the fraction.  You got the .6 fine on your own.  1,800 x .6 gives you that answer.

However, that being said, I'm guessing that wherever you're seeing that 750gp price, that it's a typing error in whatever book or source, because to take a wild guess from what you listed the item as, I'm coming up with 7,500gp.

That's 2 x 3 x 2000 (cure spell) and 2 squared x 100 x 1.5 (skill + added similar power) 

12,000 + 600

12,600 x .6 for the 3/d, even though this should really only apply to the spell part...

I'm thinking that's a 7,560 rounded down to 7,500.

That's my guesswork only. 



Oddly enough, Neue, it's the correct price.  Pages 110 and 255 of the Magic Item Compendium corroborate each other.


I have no idea why the healing belt and a wand of CLW are the same price...I'd figure the belt to be much more expensive (more healing available, bigger heals if needed, no real way to "empty" the belt permanently).  
*math snip*
Now about the item, this give you +2 heal check that is a cost of 400 gps but in this case maybe only count as 200 gps and have a effect like a staff or wand, this heal not is a cure light wound this only cure the D8 then he can only cure you 4 point of damage in a single day, the item took a important slot that dont let you use belt of str or belt of monk.

then this item for only 800 Gps can cure from 4 to 32 point of damage per day, and the normal price of this item is 1000 gps but with the rules of supply and demand of  the MIC this item have 25% of discount if your DM think that this item is overpower he can put a price of 1250, 1500 or 2000 gps in the standard price of this item but at high level this item is very userless.



Oma, the totals come out the same:

10800 / (5/3) = 10800 * (3/5)


Also, the belt could pump out a range of 6-48 healing per day (3 charges all spent for 2d8 per totals up to be 6d8 per day).  The monk's belt isn't all that useful for all characters, since it only confers +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed damage for a non-monk (same as a level 5 Monk);  the other belt mentioned (which I cannot find in my books...is it the belt of giant strength?) isn't all that useful for characters that don't run off of Strength (Finesse characters, non-com characters, etc)...the healing belt is useful to characters of all stripes (and not just for healing...undead blasting, too).    
*math snip*
Now about the item, this give you +2 heal check that is a cost of 400 gps but in this case maybe only count as 200 gps and have a effect like a staff or wand, this heal not is a cure light wound this only cure the D8 then he can only cure you 4 point of damage in a single day, the item took a important slot that dont let you use belt of str or belt of monk.

then this item for only 800 Gps can cure from 4 to 32 point of damage per day, and the normal price of this item is 1000 gps but with the rules of supply and demand of  the MIC this item have 25% of discount if your DM think that this item is overpower he can put a price of 1250, 1500 or 2000 gps in the standard price of this item but at high level this item is very userless.



Oma, the totals come out the same:

10800 / (5/3) = 10800 * (3/5)


Also, the belt could pump out a range of 6-48 healing per day (3 charges all spent for 2d8 per totals up to be 6d8 per day).  The monk's belt isn't all that useful for all characters, since it only confers +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed damage for a non-monk (same as a level 5 Monk);  the other belt mentioned (which I cannot find in my books...is it the belt of giant strength?) isn't all that useful for characters that don't run off of Strength (Finesse characters, non-com characters, etc)...the healing belt is useful to characters of all stripes (and not just for healing...undead blasting, too).    

the belt give you the wis bonus as AC and this is very helpful for many characters.

the example he used is "Since it's a fraction it would end up increasing the price after command word and the more charges would make it cost less."

the he doing (price/(X/5) instead of (price/(5/X)

then

1000 /(4/5) = 1250
1000/(5/5) = 1000
1000/(6/5) = 833

the item can only cure 33 point of damage per day if you use well, but still can only cure 4 in a single day or 48 if you have alot of luck while a wand can cure you from 100 to 450 in a single day and each creature can use it while the belt can't be given easily like a wand that other player can use if you fall in battle.

in this point this item are "infinite" but still are out of the power of a wand of cure light wounds.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
*math snip*
Now about the item, this give you +2 heal check that is a cost of 400 gps but in this case maybe only count as 200 gps and have a effect like a staff or wand, this heal not is a cure light wound this only cure the D8 then he can only cure you 4 point of damage in a single day, the item took a important slot that dont let you use belt of str or belt of monk.

then this item for only 800 Gps can cure from 4 to 32 point of damage per day, and the normal price of this item is 1000 gps but with the rules of supply and demand of  the MIC this item have 25% of discount if your DM think that this item is overpower he can put a price of 1250, 1500 or 2000 gps in the standard price of this item but at high level this item is very userless.



Oma, the totals come out the same:

10800 / (5/3) = 10800 * (3/5)


Also, the belt could pump out a range of 6-48 healing per day (3 charges all spent for 2d8 per totals up to be 6d8 per day).  The monk's belt isn't all that useful for all characters, since it only confers +1 AC and 1d8 unarmed damage for a non-monk (same as a level 5 Monk);  the other belt mentioned (which I cannot find in my books...is it the belt of giant strength?) isn't all that useful for characters that don't run off of Strength (Finesse characters, non-com characters, etc)...the healing belt is useful to characters of all stripes (and not just for healing...undead blasting, too).    

the belt give you the wis bonus as AC and this is very helpful for many characters.

the example he used is "Since it's a fraction it would end up increasing the price after command word and the more charges would make it cost less."

the he doing (price/(X/5) instead of (price/(5/X)

then

1000 /(4/5) = 1250
1000/(5/5) = 1000
1000/(6/5) = 833

the item can only cure 33 point of damage per day if you use well, but still can only cure 4 in a single day or 48 if you have alot of luck while a wand can cure you from 100 to 450 in a single day and each creature can use it while the belt can't be given easily like a wand that other player can use if you fall in battle.

in this point this item are "infinite" but still are out of the power of a wand of cure light wounds.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
the belt give you the wis bonus as AC and this is very helpful for many characters.

the item can only cure 33 point of damage per day if you use well, but still can only cure 4 in a single day or 48 if you have alot of luck while a wand can cure you from 100 to 450 in a single day and each creature can use it while the belt can't be given easily like a wand that other player can use if you fall in battle.

in this point this item are "infinite" but still are out of the power of a wand of cure light wounds.



1.  Not all characters have need of a high Wisdom (Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins (a 14 is the highest they need), Rogues (that aren't scouts), Sorcerers, and Wizards...and that's just core)...for most characters, the 9000 gp for a set of bracers of armor (or a few ranks in UMD and a wand of mage armor for 375 gp) works just as well.

2.  How are you getting 33 points of healing??  The healing belt averages 27 per day using the 1-charge option 3 times, 27.5 if you use the 2-charge option once and the 1-charge once (13.5 is the average of 3d8, 9 is the average of 2d8), or 18 if you blow the whole thing at once.  Each use of the wand requires a standard action, so it's a bit slower in combat (where healing isn't as useful as trying to cripple your opponent);  the belt uses the same standard action and grants double the healing.  Also, not every character can use the wand (unless they invest in UMD)...Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins (pre-4th), Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards are all noted for their lack of CLW.
the belt give you the wis bonus as AC and this is very helpful for many characters.

the item can only cure 33 point of damage per day if you use well, but still can only cure 4 in a single day or 48 if you have alot of luck while a wand can cure you from 100 to 450 in a single day and each creature can use it while the belt can't be given easily like a wand that other player can use if you fall in battle.

in this point this item are "infinite" but still are out of the power of a wand of cure light wounds.



1.  Not all characters have need of a high Wisdom (Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins (a 14 is the highest they need), Rogues (that aren't scouts), Sorcerers, and Wizards...and that's just core)...for most characters, the 9000 gp for a set of bracers of armor (or a few ranks in UMD and a wand of mage armor for 375 gp) works just as well.

2.  How are you getting 33 points of healing??  The healing belt averages 27 per day using the 1-charge option 3 times, 27.5 if you use the 2-charge option once and the 1-charge once (13.5 is the average of 3d8, 9 is the average of 2d8), or 18 if you blow the whole thing at once.  Each use of the wand requires a standard action, so it's a bit slower in combat (where healing isn't as useful as trying to cripple your opponent);  the belt uses the same standard action and grants double the healing.  Also, not every character can use the wand (unless they invest in UMD)...Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins (pre-4th), Rogues, Sorcerers, and Wizards are all noted for their lack of CLW.

1- in high levels this bonus is very useful because can stack whit other bonus.
and many character are based in wis with the feats zen archery and intuitive attack many high level character have a minimum of +2 of wis that can be used as a extra +2 AC for all non melee combatants.

2- o sorry i was used 5-6-5... instead of 4-5-4.... in the calculation the this item then as the Max standard only cure 27 hit points in a single day while a wand cure 250 hit poinst almost 10 times as standard and all character may select put ranks in UMD to use it. while the belt can only be used be you in a encounter then if you fall the wand become more useful that the belt.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- in high levels this bonus is very useful because can stack whit other bonus.
and many character are based in wis with the feats zen archery and intuitive attack many high level character have a minimum of +2 of wis that can be used as a extra +2 AC for all non melee combatants.

2- o sorry i was used 5-6-5... instead of 4-5-4.... in the calculation the this item then as the Max standard only cure 27 hit points in a single day while a wand cure 250 hit poinst almost 10 times as standard and all character may select put ranks in UMD to use it. while the belt can only be used be you in a encounter then if you fall the wand become more useful that the belt.



1.  Zen Archery is along the lines of Weapon Finesse, in that they both benefit characters that are already packing a decent stat.  That's not to say that a Fighter couldn't take Zen Archery (and have a higher Wisdom than Strength), but, since a Fighter generally has a higher Strength, Zen Archery is useless.

I can't find Intuitive Attack and so cannot comment on it.

2.  I'd much rather put a wand in the hands of those that can make use of them (and put belts on characters that can't) than cross-class UMD to make a wand somewhat useful (it'd take a total of 22 skill points to even have UMD be a 50/50 shot on a character with average Charisma).   
Alsebra, the belt you can't find is the Monk's Belt. It's in the DMG under "Belt, Monk's".
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I agree, UMD as a cross skill for lower Charisma Classes with few Skill points (low Int and few points per level), paying twice the cost and being limited to half the Maximum ranks in that skill, is not benificial.

A level 9 Fighter with 8 Char (-1) would have to spend 12 Skill points to get max 6 ranks in UMD, (level 9+3)/2 max cross-skill, for a Skill Check of  +5

And then there is getting a wand out, while in combat, with a sword and shield.....   certainly not practical
1- in high levels this bonus is very useful because can stack whit other bonus.
and many character are based in wis with the feats zen archery and intuitive attack many high level character have a minimum of +2 of wis that can be used as a extra +2 AC for all non melee combatants.

2- o sorry i was used 5-6-5... instead of 4-5-4.... in the calculation the this item then as the Max standard only cure 27 hit points in a single day while a wand cure 250 hit poinst almost 10 times as standard and all character may select put ranks in UMD to use it. while the belt can only be used be you in a encounter then if you fall the wand become more useful that the belt.



1.  Zen Archery is along the lines of Weapon Finesse, in that they both benefit characters that are already packing a decent stat.  That's not to say that a Fighter couldn't take Zen Archery (and have a higher Wisdom than Strength), but, since a Fighter generally has a higher Strength, Zen Archery is useless.

I can't find Intuitive Attack and so cannot comment on it.

2.  I'd much rather put a wand in the hands of those that can make use of them (and put belts on characters that can't) than cross-class UMD to make a wand somewhat useful (it'd take a total of 22 skill points to even have UMD be a 50/50 shot on a character with average Charisma).   

You can make a fighter based in Wis to have good will save and good fortitude save and have a good ranged and melee attack at the cost of the damage


You fight by faith more than brute strength.


BoED pag 44


Prerequisite


Base attack bonus +1,



Benefit


With a simple weapon of your size or a natural weapon, you may use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.


Special


A fighter may select Intuitive Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.


???


-And yours don't know the Items that boost skills??? a non epic +30 conpetence bonus cost only 90 000 gps, +20 cost only 40000 gps and +10 cost only 10 000 gps, this mean that a warrior with cha 8, and level 8 will have a bonus of +14 in her UMD then he have a chance of use the scrolls of the wizard of the party (Lv1 65% ,Lv2 55% ,Lv3 45%,lv4 35% )or use all wands with a 70%-80%



Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
ya, you could make a fighter that sucked at his job, I agree
ya, you could make a fighter that sucked at his job, I agree

human Fighter level 8

Str 16 +3
Dex 10 +0
Con 14 +2
Int 12 +1
Wis 14 +2
Cha 8 -1

Feats
H- Able Learner
1- Nymph Kiss
3- Heroic Destiny
6- Fearless Destiny
F1- Exotic Weapon Proff (Goliath Greathammer)
F2- Weapon Focus (Goliath Greathammer)
F4- Weapon Specialization (Goliath Greathammer)
F6- Improved toughness
F8- Greater Weapon Focus (Goliath Greathammer)

Items
MW Full Plate Mechanus gear +2 (5900 Gps)
MW Goliath Greathammer +1 (2330 Gps)
Ring Of Protection +1 (2000 Gps)
Cloack of Resistan +2 (4000 Gps)
Item +10 UMD (10000 Gps)
wand of Cure light wounds (750 Gps)
Amulet of Nat Armor +1 (2000 Gps)
20 Gps

Hp: 73 (Survive an acid pit trap CR 8)
BA +8
Initiative +0
AC: 24 =10+12+1+1 Touch 11 FF 24
Saves: F +10, R +4, W +6
Attack MW Goliath Greathammer +1 (+14/+9) damage 1d12 + 7

Skills
Climb +5 = 11+3-9
Jump +5 = 11+3-9
Swim -4 = 11+3-18
Use Magic Divice +16 = 5-1+2+10
Tumble -4 = 5+0-9
Autohypnosis +7 =5+2
Spot +6 =4+2

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Are you ****ing kidding us, Oma?! That's a HORRIBLE build, which means that you just confirmed MrC's comment of "a fighter that sucks at his job". Plus, how many of those skill points did you pull out thin air?
Answer
Literally every single one not assigned to the first 3 skills, that's how many.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Are you ****ing kidding us, Oma?! That's a HORRIBLE build, which means that you just confirmed MrC's comment of "a fighter that sucks at his job". Plus, how many of those skill points did you pull out thin air?
Answer
Literally every single one not assigned to the first 3 skills, that's how many.

So do a better building
This warrior can tank, can help in melee, can help the cleric to cure or help the wizard with the spells.
at have a lot of more option at high levels with the use of magic

at high level he can use scrolls like Giant Size, Transcend Mortality
and at level 8 he can use Greater Invisibility.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
And you still haven't said how he got all those skill points.

Besides, I have made better builds; Hanzo Hattori, for one. Granted, he's built as a crafter, but he can still fight. Or Kris the Sadomasochist, or any Lockdown build. You made a fighter that (ignoring the skill points) can do many things, but none of them well.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
And you still haven't said how he got all those skill points.

Besides, I have made better builds; Hanzo Hattori, for one. Granted, he's built as a crafter, but he can still fight. Or Kris the Sadomasochist, or any Lockdown build. You made a fighter that (ignoring the skill points) can do many things, but none of them well.

????? you dont know the feats right???

Human + 1 skill

Nyph's Kiss +1 skill (not X4 at level 1 only 1)

warrior +2 skills

Able Learner CC cost only 1 rank.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Nope; forget about human and have no idea what Nymph's Kiss is or does. Your build still sucks, though. It MIGHT survive a solo adventure, but it makes a horrible teammate.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Why would a Cleric need help healing or a Wizard need help from a fighter casting, what magic missile?

He is also wielding a 2 handed weapon, to cast a wand he must release the sword, take out a wand and use a standard action to cast, then he must put the wand away. You are going to need the Quick Draw feat to do this effectively.

At any rate you are sacrificing your Full-Round attack to cast a weak spell. With a Wand of Cure light you are healing for a smaller amount of HP then you would have avoided if you had simply attacked the enemy instead, the lost melee damage from casting equals an additional round of damage from the enemy which is likely more then what Cure Light heals for.   

You wasted a number of feats that could be better used. You wasted 2 Ability points in Inteligence (you only needed 1 at most to avoid a penelty)

You are wasting 10,000gp for an item, plus the wands/scrolls. A Level 7 scroll of Giant Size is 2,275 gp a pop.
  
Transend Mortality is 3,825 gp, plus it kills you afterwards, so um do you use that regularly? Plus these spells are Wu Jen spells which aren't commonly available in most campaigns.
 
If you hadn't have wasted all that coin you could afford better gear and both avoided the damage you are healing for and deal more damage then you could cast for. upgrading to a Ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +2 for 12,000 gp would give you +2 AC.

Or a Gauntlet of Ogre Strength (4,000gp) +2 Str and upgrade your weapon to a +2 enhancement (6,000gp more) total 10,000 gp, in this case since you have a +3 damage bonus from strength, +4 total (X 1.5 = 4.5 rounded to 4)  the Gauntlets bring your total to 18 (+4) which is +6 damage, so the gloves give you +2 damage which is sweet. +3 Att/+4 Damage over boosting UMD rules. (potentially +8 damage/round)

Moving those 2 Ability points form Int to Constitution gives you an extra +1 bonus, which is 8 HP, that's more likely to save your life then a wand of Cure light (1d8+5=avg 8hp) as a standard action in the middle of combat.

Worse, you are talking about using this build in a group with a Cleric and a Wizard, so these abilities are moot point in that context, and a cheap healing Belt would serve you far better.   
   


   

Alsebra, the belt you can't find is the Monk's Belt. It's in the DMG under "Belt, Monk's".



Believe me, I found the monk's belt (for, if I cannot find something in one way, I'll check other basic permutations)...I just couldn't find a belt of strength.


@Oma - Using Nymph's Kiss on a character that doesn't have many useful class skills is all but wasting a feat slot that could've been put towards making them more able to perform in combat, protected them in combat, or (god forbid) something to make their existing skills a little more useful (Skill Focus or one of the '+2 to two certain connected skills).  Why in the blue hells does your 'hack-of-all-trades' Fighter have a +2 in Wisdom?  The money you spent on the '+10 UMD item' could've been spent on something to boost either your Wisdom or something that boosts your Will save (which is what I think you were going for)...and it's close to half your wealth at that level for something to attempt to help you get a little use out of something that you don't really need to do.
Ah, I misunderstood which belt you were looking for. It's the Belt of Giant Strength.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls

1- Special Magical Items can let you store a wand in a bracers to be used without use the hands then you can wild a two-handed weapon and use a rod or a wand at the same time.

2- you support in the case of the cleric fall or the wizard fall at the end of the encounter

3- You can cast Scrolls of any King up to Lv 4 not only magic missile.

4- the healing belt can't cure a fight if he is exploring a dungeon (a lot of encounters in a single day, and chances of surprise encounter if you try to sleep) then you need a lot of cure

5- If the Cleric Die the warrior still can try to use a scroll to raise him (Druid lv 4 Last Breath)

6- for -1 on attack -8 HP -2 Damage and -2 AC this character can use magical equipment like holy avenger, scrolls, wands, ETC. and still is a moderate damage, moderate attack and moderate AC for a character level 8

7- You can cast from a scroll to boost your Wis or gain protection agains something and he had Heroic destiny and can add 1d6 1/day to any check like a save.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1: It still is a standard action to cast from a Wand, which means the Fighter can't attack for that round. Loosing the potential of 2 full attacks. In general killing the target faster is going to prevent more damage then what he can heal, and will deal more damage then what he can effectively do with a wand.

2: Other classes are far better suited for doing this. Rogues can get UMD at no cost to Ability point selection, feats, skills or gear, and are often free to move. Healing requires moving to the target's position and risking AoO (rogues can tumble and often left with not much to do when they can't get a sneak attack in) . Paladins, Bards, Rangers, Druids can all cast heals. Healing Belts are cheap,

3: Yes, and pay thousands of gold per scroll, or wand. It's a cost that adds up fast. And this damage is in sacrifice to lost attacks, and lost melee damage from both those attacks and that lost per attack as result of lower Strength and Attack Bonus. As well lower AC and lower COn meaning you need more healing 

4: Then in those cases of multiple fights per day (we are talking resource management now) the cleric can simply use a wand between fights to top up and save some cures. Additionally if we are talking resource management, then having a higher AC and a better attack and damage will take less damage end these fights faster and prevent this healing from being needed. Don't make yourself a healing sink in the first place.

5. Which is going to happen alot if the tanks are lousy at their job. Now break from combat and try using this to heal the Cleric. Again a job better done by the Rogue in the party then the main tank.

6. My point is that that lost damage and defence is going to counter any benifit you gain from casting spells.

What is the weakness of classes like Paladins? 
A: have to spend ability points on their special abilities 
B: they don't get as many feats, 
C: half the time they don't get a chance to cast any spells in combat.

But at least they can spend their loot on gear, but at least their spell casting doesn't cost a freaking fortune or rely on additional skill checks. At least it doesn't cost them between 15 to 25 gp per cure light, and they aren't spending 750gp, 2250gp and 4,500 gp per wand, or in the case of scrolls hundreds to literally thousands per scroll.


So what you've done is made a gimped Paladinish/Rangerish class that costs a motherload of Gold to fuel
1: It still is a standard action to cast from a Wand, which means the Fighter can't attack for that round. Loosing the potential of 2 full attacks. In general killing the target faster is going to prevent more damage then what he can heal, and will deal more damage then what he can effectively do with a wand.

2: Other classes are far better suited for doing this. Rogues can get UMD at no cost to Ability point selection, feats, skills or gear, and are often free to move. Healing requires moving to the target's position and risking AoO (rogues can tumble and often left with not much to do when they can't get a sneak attack in) . Paladins, Bards, Rangers, Druids can all cast heals. Healing Belts are cheap,

3: Yes, and pay thousands of gold per scroll, or wand. It's a cost that adds up fast. And this damage is in sacrifice to lost attacks, and lost melee damage from both those attacks and that lost per attack as result of lower Strength and Attack Bonus. As well lower AC and lower COn meaning you need more healing 

4: Then in those cases of multiple fights per day (we are talking resource management now) the cleric can simply use a wand between fights to top up and save some cures. Additionally if we are talking resource management, then having a higher AC and a better attack and damage will take less damage end these fights faster and prevent this healing from being needed. Don't make yourself a healing sink in the first place.

5. Which is going to happen alot if the tanks are lousy at their job. Now break from combat and try using this to heal the Cleric. Again a job better done by the Rogue in the party then the main tank.

6. My point is that that lost damage and defence is going to counter any benifit you gain from casting spells.

What is the weakness of classes like Paladins? 
A: have to spend ability points on their special abilities 
B: they don't get as many feats, 
C: half the time they don't get a chance to cast any spells in combat.

But at least they can spend their loot on gear, but at least their spell casting doesn't cost a freaking fortune or rely on additional skill checks. At least it doesn't cost them between 15 to 25 gp per cure light, and they aren't spending 750gp, 2250gp and 4,500 gp per wand, or in the case of scrolls hundreds to literally thousands per scroll.


So what you've done is made a gimped Paladinish/Rangerish class that costs a motherload of Gold to fuel

1- if you dont like that a player die for diying this cost is null, and he only lose one turn and  if more that one melee player exist then you can rescute from die other melee player without the cleric risk her life.

2- and still any of that class not are better in combat that a fighter and he only need to spend 2 feats.

3- in middle and high level the gold is enough to buy it especially for a heavy warrior and can use a lot of standard and random treasure like the scrolls and the wands and special weapons, a standar treasure for a level 8 are 850 Gps per player and a standar scroll level 4 cost 700 gps.

4- you can survive solo, the damage and AC don't are a critical factor in this scale is almost the same and if your cleric are disabled you still can cure the party members, then this Fighter help in a Non rouge party, in a non cleric party, in a non wizard party and still can help a wizard or a cleric if are in the party with support spells that the wizard or cleric can use to make a powerful surprice round.

5-because some times you are fighting with a huge monster and the cleric support in melee and if the rouge waste her turn in a tumble to reach the cleric and a UMD to cure the cleric in the turn of the moster this maybe smash both the cleric and the rouge

6- Survivalist is first that all, this warrior have more potencial lifespawn that other that can't use magic to scape, to cure or to defeat some special effect and only can smash monster, and still have a lot of combat bonus and feats.

7-
A) the fighter dont waste skill points
B) the figther have a lot of feats
C) He can use a Single Scroll to overpower her power abilities for one encounter and still can use cure in an emergency case.

the fighter can spend her feats to gain powerful combat bonus, DR, Bonus in AC and Still have a lot of HP and in this bulding a lot of Skill points that can be spended in usefull skill points that a standard fighter never have, and still the power of a fighter in High level are her equipment unlike the spellcasting classes
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, remember last week when you challenged me to make a better build?  You obviously didn't go looking.  Otherwise you would have found a tank who can heal effectively during combat, the Craftmaster UMD monkey who can tank, the charger that can use wands without skill points, and a couple of tanks who will go beast-mode... and can still use wands more effectively than your craptacular fighter can.

So which one of these do you think COULDN'T take your fighter down to 0 hp? 
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1:  The loss of damage/defence from this build is more likely to bring you to the point where you need this healing to prevent being killed.  Or better yet have a higher AC and avoid the damage altogether, have higher Constitution so the damage won't kill you, or a better attack so you have fewer enemies doing damage as you kill them faster.

2:  Yes those classes aren't better then a Fighter in combat, which is why a fighter should leave it to those classes to fool around with. The rogue, for instance is far more mobile, especially with tumble, has UMD at no cost to his other abilities, and is often free to take the actions needed to use the item. Two feats are significant.

3: Money better spent on his own gear or on providing those resources to other classes who can make better use of them. For this build to be worth it you need to be using these items with a good enough frequency or else you are sacrficing for no good reason.

4: In a non rogue party? Clerics and wizards can still use the wands to flesh out their spells, and wouldn't the skill points be better used to cover other rogue skills? Disable Device, Spot, search....

5: ? well in a big fight where healing is needed shouldn't the cleric instead be healing instead of helping melee? Also how is this wasting the rogue's turn any more then the fighter's? He has to take one, maybe several AoO to move to help the Cleric, and has the same chance to fail as a Rogue. The Rogue can Tumble to avoid AoO even through a large crowd of enemies and get to the Cleric and cast UMD while the Fighter would get chopped to pieces trying the same thing.

The Rogue can also  reach anyone in the party this way. In fact the Rogue was designed with Tumble, UMD and loads of skill points to be specifically able to do exactly this out of the box.

6: Actually, no the Warrior is the least able to do anything other then stand where he is in front of the monster. heavy armor reducing his movement, low dex (thanks to heavy armor) without tumble and with armor check penelties makes him one of the least mobile in the group. Rogues get Tumble with great Dexerity, plenty of skill points and low to no Armor Check penelties.

Even Paladins, who already can use devine Wands without rolling, has spells, cures, restore, buffs etc while matching the Fighter's AC, and Hp (better in this case because he sacrifices no gear) is better suited.

Basically you've turned a fighter into a broken Paladin that has to spend gold and roll skill checks to cast spells.

And btw Armor Check penelty applies to scrolls, as do Attacks of Opportunity, so a fighter in armor is going to be seriously hampered here. 
Oma, remember last week when you challenged me to make a better build?  You obviously didn't go looking.  Otherwise you would have found a tank who can heal effectively during combat, the Craftmaster UMD monkey who can tank, the charger that can use wands without skill points, and a couple of tanks who will go beast-mode... and can still use wands more effectively than your craptacular fighter can.

So which one of these do you think COULDN'T take your fighter down to 0 hp? 

lol, first your character not are made for level 8, incarnate have lower HP and you become a multiclass character with EXP penalty, we speak about warriors and the Incarnate dont fall in this kind of class.

Yashira Human Fighter Level 20

Stats
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Str 18 +4 / 24 +7
Dex 10 +0 / 16 +3
Con 14 +2/ 20 +5
Int 13 +1 / 18 +4
Wis 14 +2 / 20 +5
Cha 8 -1 / 14 +2


Feats
Show

H- Able Learner
1- Nymph Kiss
3- Heroic Destiny
6- Fearless Destiny
F1- Exotic Weapon Proff (Goliath Greathammer)
F2- Weapon Focus (Goliath Greathammer)
F4- Weapon Specialization (Goliath Greathammer)
F6- Combat Expertise
F8- Greater Weapon Focus (Goliath Greathammer)
9- Improved Critical (Goliath Greathammer)
F10- Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)
12- Item Familiar (Armor)
F12- Greater Weapon Specialization (Goliath Greathammer)
F14-Improved Combat Expertise
15- Armor Specialization (Heavy)
F16-Improved toughness
18- Heavy Armor Optimization
F18- Weapon Supremacy (Goliath Greathammer)
F20- Greater Heavy Armor Optimization


Items
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MW Mithral Full Plate Mechanus gear +5 (Soulfire, Nimbleness) (110900 Gps)
MW Goliath Greathammer +5 (Mage Bane) (72330 Gps)
Ring Of Protection +5 (50000 Gps)
Cloack of Resistan +5 (25000 Gps)
Shirt of +20 UMD and +12 DS (54400 Gps)
Amulet of Nat Armor +5 (50000 Gps)
Belt Of Perfection +6 (144000Gps)
HeadBand Of Perfection +6 (144000 Gps)
Ring Of Evation (25000 Gps)
Stone of Good Luck (20 000 Gps)
Boots of Striding and Springing and Celerity 1/Day without Backdraw(30 500 Gps)
Crystal Of Aquatic Action (3000 Gps)
Casting Glove (20 000 Gps)
Bracers of Arcane Freedom (2300 Gps)
2 Wand of Cure Light Wounds (1500 Gps)
1 Scroll of transcendent immortality (3825 Gps)
1 Scroll of Revivify (2125 Gps)
1 Scroll of Revenance (700 Gps)
420 Gps in Mundane Items.


Body Slots
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  • One headband of Perfection +6 on the head

  • None over the eyes

  • One amulet of natural Armor +5 around the neck

  • One Shirt of +20 UMD and +12 DS on the torso

  • One MW Mithral Full Plate Mechanus gear +5 (Soulfire, Nimbleness)(over the shirt)

  • One belt of Perfection around the waist (over the suit of armor)

  • One cloak of resistan +6 (over the suit of armor)

  • One pair of Bracers of Arcane Freedom on the wrists

  • One Casting Glove on the hands

  • One ring of evation and one ring of protection +5 on one hand

  • One pair of Boots of Striding and Springing and Celerity 1/Day without Backdraw on the feet





Character
Show

Hp: 235
Speed 30 fts
BA +20
Grapple +27
Initiative +3
AC: 41 =10+17+5+5+3+1 Touch 19 FF 38
DR 2/-
Saves: F +24, R +15, W +17
Attack MW Goliath Greathammer +5 (+31/+26/+21/+16) damage 1d12 + 21 (19-20 X 4)


Skills
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Climb +29 = 23+7-2+1
Jump +36 = 23+7-2+1+5+2
Swim +27 = 23+7-4+1
Use Magic Divice +36 (+38 with scrolls)= 11+2+2+20+1 (+2 with scrolls)
Tumble +15 = 11+3-2+1+2
Autohypnosis +16 =10+5+1
Decipher Script +28 =11+4+1+12
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A) The only one that worries about an XP penalty is Kris.
B) Those were builds made months ago, and I didn't feel like doing copypasta. You could have stopped at level 8.
C) The only build in there fully kitted out is my Revenant/Eternal Blade. You really want to die in the first round?
D) The point wasn't "Oh, this is a flapjack of all trades" like yours. The point is that the best builds concentrate on one thing, and perform ONE backup function. Unless they're a God-wizard, artificer, or CoDzilla, of course.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
A) The only one that worries about an XP penalty is Kris. B) Those were builds made months ago, and I didn't feel like doing copypasta. You could have stopped at level 8. C) The only build in there fully kitted out is my Revenant/Eternal Blade. You really want to die in the first round? D) The point wasn't "Oh, this is a flapjack of all trades" like yours. The point is that the best builds concentrate on one thing, and perform ONE backup function. Unless they're a God-wizard, artificer, or CoDzilla, of course.

- A Half-Elf Warblade 6, Ranger 2, Barbarian 1 dont gain EXP penalty????
only 28 of AC

- This not are a copy paste is a full progression of the last example to reach level 20.

- The Half-Elf with only +1 weapons??? what turn? the one where you apply the oils???

- The best build is the one that don't need the other help to survive and can help her party members as well.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
A) The only one that worries about an XP penalty is Kris.
B) Those were builds made months ago, and I didn't feel like doing copypasta. You could have stopped at level 8.
C) The only build in there fully kitted out is my Revenant/Eternal Blade. You really want to die in the first round?
D) The point wasn't "Oh, this is a flapjack of all trades" like yours. The point is that the best builds concentrate on one thing, and perform ONE backup function. Unless they're a God-wizard, artificer, or CoDzilla, of course.

Oma, Tumble at +13 at level 20 really doesn't cut it to move through opponents without getting an AoO and if you use a Wand (level 4 spells max) you will loose 4 attacks at potentially 1d12+21 damage each (108 not including criticals) not sure which spell you could cast from a wand that would be remotely equal to that
Oma, Tumble at +13 at level 20 really doesn't cut it to move through opponents without getting an AoO and if you use a Wand (level 4 spells max) you will loose 4 attacks at potentially 1d12+21 damage each (108 not including criticals) not sure which spell you could cast from a wand that would be remotely equal to that

¬¬ again is support not primary weapon

as example if one of your friend are in problems maybe you waste your turn in help him instead of kill one of 2 monsters.

or you can use the first round to use a scroll to overpower your combat abilities like gigant size.

the DC of tumble is 15,17,19,..... +13 is enough

i think you always let your party members die instead of waste a turn to try to help him.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
- A Half-Elf Warblade 6 Ranger 2 dont gain EXP penalty????

No; that's what "Favored Class: Any" means.
only 28 of AC
- The Half-Elf with only +1 weapons??? what turn? the one where you apply the oils???

Did you not notice that this build is designed for a competition with very specific rules?  If it was an actual adventurer, the gear would be different.
- This not are a copy paste is a full progression of the last example to reach level 20.

I was saying that I linked to builds; I didn't copy/paste the first 8 levels.
- The best build is the one that don't need the other help to survive and can help her party members as well.

Yes and no - it depends on what your goal is.  If it's to fight & heal while thinking outside the box, then yes.  If it's to craft, UMD, and hold your own in a fight, it's Hattori Hanzo; if it's just to AoO Tank, it would probably be one of the shifters; if it's just flat-out damage, I'd go with the Revenant Blade.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
- A Half-Elf Warblade 6 Ranger 2 dont gain EXP penalty????

No; that's what "Favored Class: Any" means.

only 28 of AC
- The Half-Elf with only +1 weapons??? what turn? the one where you apply the oils???

Did you not notice that this build is designed for a competition with very specific rules?  If it was an actual adventurer, the gear would be different.
- This not are a copy paste is a full progression of the last example to reach level 20.

I was saying that I linked to builds; I didn't copy/paste the first 8 levels.
- The best build is the one that don't need the other help to survive and can help her party members as well.

Yes and no - it depends on what your goal is.  If it's to fight & heal while thinking outside the box, then yes.  If it's to craft, UMD, and hold your own in a fight, it's Hattori Hanzo; if it's just to AoO Tank, it would probably be one of the shifters; if it's just flat-out damage, I'd go with the Revenant Blade.
1- And the Barbarian 1????? is a favorite class too???

2- Then your character only apply in special circumstances not all, and i make my own character based in a Fighter Class not in all Classes.

4- The First Goal is the Fun and the socialization.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
1- And the Barbarian 1????? is a favorite class too???

And this is where you show your ignorance of the game.  Does Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 have a XP penalty?  No.  Favored Class: Any means that you ignore the highest base class - in this case, Warblade 6.
2- Then your character only apply in special circumstances not all, and i make my own character based in a Fighter Class not in all Classes.

And I could easily change the gear to an adventurer instead of a gladiator; would you like me to?
4- The First Goal is the Fun and the socialization.

How does your build socialize?  It's decent for surviving on its own, and it sucks as part of a team.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
1- And the Barbarian 1????? is a favorite class too???

And this is where you show your ignorance of the game.  Does Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 have a XP penalty?  No.  Favored Class: Any means that you ignore the highest base class - in this case, Warblade 6.
2- Then your character only apply in special circumstances not all, and i make my own character based in a Fighter Class not in all Classes.

And I could easily change the gear to an adventurer instead of a gladiator; would you like me to?
4- The First Goal is the Fun and the socialization.

How does your build socialize?  It's decent for surviving on its own, and it sucks as part of a team.

1- OK i dont have the player guide of Eberron I confused the PC with a Base C

2- a gladiator is a character with 26 of AC at level 20???? that character will dont have any chance again a necromancer

3- is the main goal of the game for players not characters.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
2- a gladiator is a character with 26 of AC at level 20???? that character will dont have any chance again a necromancer

...Which he's not fighting.  If it was an adventurer, he'd have a better AC and a better weapon, along with with less random "I'm trying to do everything" crap.  Again, do you really want to see what the build would look like as an adventurer in a party?
3- is the main goal of the game for players not characters.

Huh.  I never found the concept of "Worse than anyone else in the party at every job I chose to build for" to be all that entertaining.  But whatever floats your boat, I guess.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
2- a gladiator is a character with 26 of AC at level 20???? that character will dont have any chance again a necromancer

...Which he's not fighting.  If it was an adventurer, he'd have a better AC and a better weapon, along with with less random "I'm trying to do everything" crap.  Again, do you really want to see what the build would look like as an adventurer in a party?
3- is the main goal of the game for players not characters.

Huh.  I never found the concept of "Worse than anyone else in the party at every job I chose to build for" to be all that entertaining.  But whatever floats your boat, I guess.

1- do it if you can

2- ¬¬ the if you say it make a build for a only healer class the more underpowered and forgotten class.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.