Wizard vs Cleric

I was helping my group update their character for the new rules and it caught my eye. clerics are over powered (i said so in the survey but i didn't notice how much)

let us compare

spell slots (same)

hit points (cleric has more)

Armour (cleric can wear all the armour, wizard has a spell that gives him some weak mage armour)

Spellbook (cleric has all the spells he can cast, wizard has a finite list which cost him cast to expand)

Casting (wizard has to choose his spell in the before he goes out, cleric can swap out for some safe bets, flexible casting is so powerful when you have less spell slots)

Weapons (cleric has basic if not martial, wizard does a few of the weakest)

Concentration (cleric can hold and take damage, wizard can't)

Rituals (same)

spell list

Do the wizard come up in front, not at early levels

Lance of faith does better damage and a better type than Ray of Frost

Scorching Ray is better than magic missle at the same level on average and is more flexible

The cleric has much better single damage spells, inflict minor wounds and inflict moderates wounds beat sleep (ignoring it doesn't work unless you get all the hit points, which makes it even worse) and melf's acid arrow, yes the inflicts are touch but that what the armour and hit points fix.

Wizard has AOE but he doesn't get a decent ranged attacked AOE til fireball and is expected as a battle mage to wade into the frey with 12+dex AC and less hit points and weapons

Wizard may get a signature spell but cleric have turn undead (which can let a cleric control the dead), keep in mind both signature spells have unarmour wizard wading in close to get an affect.

So am i missing something or does this seem correct? the wizard is a unarmoured, underpowered spell caster who after his spell slots are gone is nothing








Wizard spells was insanely better than cleric spells. And in this playtest wizard is much more powerfull than clerics. Ray of Frost is not a good parameter because it is weak. Cleric has no comparable spells to: Minor Illusion, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Darkness, Mirror Image, Web, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Telekinesis;

 


 


 


 

I would argue that the cleric is edging the wizard out slightly overall.  The wizard has more aoe's and utility.  Whether this balances him out I'm not convinced. The cleric's defenses are on all the time so he doesn't have to spend actions casting mirror image, mage armor, shield, etc.  Magic Missile is inarguably good and it may, imo, be arguably broken as the damage it does has no defense but lack of LoS.  Minor illusion has no definitive mechanical rules and thus relies too heavily on the DM for it's effectiveness and it's a cantrip, it's power should be proportional to other cantrips.  Color Spray is okay but puts the caster dangerously close to the action.  The rest of the spells itworks lists are good.  However the cleric has access to single target damage close to as good as the wizard in the inflict spells, though he actually has to roll to hit and has to touch the target.  But then again magic missile, imo, is probably too powerful.  Further a wizard can lose or be caused to lose his spellbook.  

In short: the wizard is slightly less powerful than the cleric in my humble opinion.   
Wizard spells was insanely better than cleric spells. And in this playtest wizard is much more powerfull than clerics. Ray of Frost is not a good parameter because it is weak. Cleric has no comparable spells to: Minor Illusion, Magic Missile, Color Spray, Darkness, Mirror Image, Web, Fireball, Fly, Haste, Polymorph, Stoneskin, Telekinesis;



Cleric do have comparable spells, Scorching Ray has the same fuction as magic missle and does the same damage on average and is more flexible  , minor illusion can be gained by a trickster cleric, command can be seen to have similar effects to colour spray but with less target but you don't need to get as close (and much more flexible)

Also, to be noted. most of the awesome spells you have stated are 3rd or higher level spells. I was referring more to lower levels.

Also, why is it not good to compare weak spells? this is the spell you going to be doing most of the time. i agree some of the utility and AOE spells make the wizard better but most of these are not available til level 3.

i just feel that with the lower spell slot, a class with better at will is going to be much more powerful



The cleric uses a lot of his spell power on healing. He might have more awesome spells but he is a lot more limited having to use those to heal
The wizard is generally more versatile and has the potential to learn more spells than the Cleric. And (this is why alignment is important in D&D) the Cleric must act to the will of his deity, while a wizard is independent.
Sorry if this has been discussed before but really I'm not too sure clerics should have ranged single target "lazer" spells, at least not at will.  Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of being able to wear heavy armor & use effective melee weapons?  Shouldn't the cleric be a bit more up close & personal in combat?  And if there is a small discrepancy between cleric & wizard this should fix it, right?  What do you guys think?
Hey all,

Since this isn't really a session report I'll be moving it to D&D Next General Discussion.

Thanks!

Monica
What's this, low level wizards are underpowered while high level wizards are overpowered?  I'm shocked!
The current verison of the wizard is in no way overpowered. The fighter and the monk are both hands down superior in most adventures. I do agree that do to the extremely limited amount of spell slots the cleric winds up having to spend most of its resources on healing. However, I tend to agree with the OP that given the other class options wizard is just dead weight. Of course the same could be said of rogue.
The wizard actually has a huge advantage when it comes to rituals: they can cast any spell as a ritual as long as it is in their spellbook.  And they get to add a number of spells equal to their Intelligence mod each time they gain a level (probably at least 3).  The cleric needs to have the spell prepared in order to cast it as a ritual, and given the very limited spell slots, this is a big hindrance.  It means that if you want a ritual spell, you will only have a single option (at most) for that spell level, in terms of non-ritual spells.

As others have said, the wizard also gets much better spells (in terms of battle power or just plain utility) than the cleric.  The cleric spells are mostly about support, because that is the cleric's role.
The wizard actually has a huge advantage when it comes to rituals: they can cast any spell as a ritual as long as it is in their spellbook.  And they get to add a number of spells equal to their Intelligence mod each time they gain a level (probably at least 3).  The cleric needs to have the spell prepared in order to cast it as a ritual, and given the very limited spell slots, this is a big hindrance.  It means that if you want a ritual spell, you will only have a single option (at most) for that spell level, in terms of non-ritual spells.



You also have your Domain Spell.

As others have said, the wizard also gets much better spells (in terms of battle power or just plain utility) than the cleric.  The cleric spells are mostly about support, because that is the cleric's role.



The Inflict spells deal FAR more damage than any Wizard Spell of equal level. Flame Strike is the highest damage AoE spell. The best Wizard spells are the support spells (like Haste) and the best Cleric spells are damage. I feel they have it quite backwards.

Sorry if this has been discussed before but really I'm not too sure clerics should have ranged single target "lazer" spells, at least not at will.  Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of being able to wear heavy armor & use effective melee weapons?  Shouldn't the cleric be a bit more up close & personal in combat?  And if there is a small discrepancy between cleric & wizard this should fix it, right?  What do you guys think?



 Im doing another videoreview of the update and Lance of Faith as an atwill spell for a light god is cheesier than the D&D movies. No fan of Ray of Frost  or any ranged atwill spell for wizards too.
Cleric ? Is it not this melee heal/buff bot who can make a crappy attacks when healing to make him feel not being the slave of his comrades ?

Yes, cleric are a far more wonderful class than wizard !
Arithezoo captured it perfectly - the wizard, from what I can tell on the forums, is supposed to be the flexible class that can do anything.  To balance that out, that flexibility has to come at a price of power.  So, the cleric, who doesn't get as many out of combat spells, and can't be every class, needs to be more powerful.  

After all, the balance people will argue as above and be mostly happy.   Those who don't care about balance shouldn't  care as long as the wizard and cleric are distinct. Even the people who like core classes to be OP shouldn't care, since cleric is core.  The only people who would see this is negative is the people who like wizards to be OP

The cleric and the wizard are about the same to me, for the reasons all ready put forward: power sometimes vs power all the time, etc.


The cleric does win out for me in the current packet, but the changes suggested in the most recent L&L article (scaling at-wills, alternate casting systems) make me think that probably it'll be a lot more even.


On this point I'm happy to wait and see, but the cleric is a damn good class that doesn't get a lot of press here. I really enjoy playing mine.

I want to put forth the point that the wizard's current strength comes not from their spell-list but their bonuses to spell-attack and imposed saving-throws. Even if you gave them the exact same spells, wizards spells will have 10% to 20% more frequent effects than a cleric casting those spells. Evaluating a cleric's martial capability also requires that you take into consideration that they need to have two strong ability scores to make both weapons and spells worthwhile.