Gathering Opinions: Switch Off Your Targeting Computer

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(I wanted to use the title, "Use the Force, Luke!", but figured that might make the "target" reference too oblique.)

Hello, everybody! Once again, I'm trying to gather players' intuitive answers to interesting rules questions in order to better inform my own opinions about the rules as they currently exist, and how and whether they should potentially be changed. (Also known as "For my own nefarious purposes, muahahahahaha!")

For those of you who may not have participated in one of these threads before, and even for those who have, I would please like to remind everyone to just say what you intuitively feel that the answer should be. This is not a test of your rules knowledge; it's a test of what players intuitively believe the rules should be. Do NOT look up the rules before answering. Don't look at anyone else's answers or ask anyone else for their opinion, either. When you answer, do so within an sblock or spoiler tag so that your answer is hidden from casual view and you won't unduly influence others before they give their own answers.

Please also tell me how informed your answer is--are you making an informed guess? How informed? Or are just straight-up guessing based on intuition?



Is that clear to everyone? Good. Here we go:

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

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You control a Silver Wyvern ; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern? - Rest fizzles, since it's dead before it can redirect.
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle? - Rest still goes through, thus a non-green creature of your choice dies.
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle? - Second rattle fizzles, first one is still redirected.
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle? - Second rattle fizzles, I don't know whether you need to redirect or the first one also fizzles, but I'm inclined to give priority to redirecting.
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle? - Lots of fizzling.
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle? - Second rattle fizzles, but since the Wyvern permanent is still here I'm inclined to have the redirecting of the first Rattle be valid.

It's not all in line with the rules I think, but this 's how it feels to me.



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tournament Player of 12 years, considered going for judge, but haven't yet.

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
Wyvern dies. State-based effects check, sees first Rattle without a target, counter it (Fizzles) State-based effects check again, see Wyvern's ability without a target, counter that, too. Stack is now clear.

2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
Assuming no further effects; Cancel resolves, sending second rattle to the grave. Wyvern's ability resolves, First Rattle is redirected to the other creature, then resolves.

3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
I think both Rattles are countered for illegal targets (Fizzled). State-based effects check, see Wyvern's ability without a target, counter that, too.

4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
Both Rattles are countered for illegal targets (Fizzled). State-based effects check, see Wyvern's ability without a target, counter that, too.

5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
Both Rattles are countered for illegal targets (Fizzled). State-based effects check, see Wyvern's ability without a target, counter that, too.

6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
Both Rattles are countered for illegal targets (Fizzled). State-based effects check, see Wyvern's ability without a target, counter that, too.
That was fun.

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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
[sblock]
In all cases, the Wyvern's ability is already on the stack. When it goes to resolve it should still see the first Rattle as targetting the Wyvern (Even if the wyvern is dead), and so the Wyvern's ability should be able to transfer it.

As I write this, I realize I'm making an underlying assumption about the stack. So I'll spell it out:

Suppose we have objects on the stack in the manner of TOP > A > B > C > BOTTOM. (Thus A will resolve first).

My assumption is that we check C for legality only when we go to resolve C. That is, if A renders C illegal, we don't actually cancel/remove C from the stack until C goes to resolve. In otherwords: Just be cause the Wyvern no longer exists doesn't change whether or not the first Rattle is targeting it.

The other way to look at it, is that after each ability resolves, we check every object in the stack for legality, and cancel any ability that now has illegal targets. I feel this interpertation is less intuitive.
[\sblock]
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I really have to guess, despite playing this game for 17+ years, I've gone through far to many rules changes to keep track of stuff like this any more... is there a second creature you're redirecting to? 
1- Creature 2 dies, unless it's green. If it is, Death Rattle 1 fizzles
2- (see 1)
3- (see 1)
4- Death Rattle 2 fizzles and (see 1)
5- (see 4), I have no idea if the Wyvern no longer existing causes Death Rattle 1 to fizzle...
6- (see 4)
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It's obvious that 1 and 5 are the same, and the rest are the same. In the second set, the death rattle is still a valid target, so the wyvern's ability works. 
I'd say that the wyvern's ability works for scenarios 1 and 5 as well, but I'm not sure.
 

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My initial responses to rules questions are usually just answers. If you want an explanation as to why, say so. Just because it says I'm there, I'm not necessarily there. I leave my browser open so I don't have to reload ~30 tabs. Anyone who wants to text duel me through either PM or chat can just PM me with a format (and a time if playing through chat). I don't play standard.
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56819178 wrote:
So, how would I use a card that has a large in the top half and "sui?l? -- pu?? ?is?q" across the middle?
57031358 wrote:
99113151 wrote:
Winning is not important if: 1. You win by a blowout. 2. You pay billions of dollars in cards to win. If you like wasting money just to win one game, while you could have saved it to lose a few and end up winning more in the future, then it is fine by me.
what? do you ceremonially light your deck on fire after a win?
57169958 wrote:
Or did no one notice Transmogrifying Licid before. (And by not notice, I mean covered their ears and shouted LA LA LA LA )
57193048 wrote:
57169958 wrote:
Hmmm... I think the most awkward situation at the moment is simply the Myr Welder / Equipment / Licid / Aura craziness, but I'm pretty sure he's aware of it.
If the most awkward thing going on right now involves Licids, I declare victory.
56287226 wrote:
We regret to inform you of Trevor Kidd's untimely demise in an unfortunate accident involving a mysteriously blown breaker box and a photophobic creature of unknown origin at his home near Renton, Washington. We at the Wizards Community apologize for any inconvenience or delay, and assure you we'll be preparing a replacement to assume his duties as soon as we finish warming up the cloning vats.
[02:47:46] It doesn't merely "come out of suspend" - you take the last time counter off, and then suspend triggers and say "now cast that! CAST IT NOOOOOW!" [02:47:49] Because suspend has no indoors voice
[10:11:33] !opalescence [10:11:33] Opalescence {2WW} |Enchantment| Each other non-Aura enchantment is a creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. It's still an enchantment. · Reserved,UD-R,Vin,Leg,Cla,USBC [10:11:51] *sigh* [10:12:10] Otecko: Do you have a question about Opalescence? [10:12:17] sure [10:12:23] $10 on humility interaction [10:12:25] :P [10:12:29] :D [10:12:47] humility + opalescence put into play by replenish
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58325628 wrote:
Mage is awesome, BTW.
56967858 wrote:
Dear Mage24365, You are totally awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you are able to dine in Paradise without kicking the bucket to actually get there, and that every dollar you ever make magically becomes two more.
58158398 wrote:
56761258 wrote:
I don't think there are any cards like that. There are things that prevent you from activating activated abilities, things that increase their cost, and things that counter them, but I don't think anything triggers from them specifically. There are things that trigger from targeting, so that might be relevant, but I can't think of anything that triggers from targeting a player. I'm almost positive there's nothing that triggers from damage being prevented.
Rings of Brighthearth; Dormant Gomazoa; Samite Ministration.
56761258 wrote:
Well played.

 

[sblock]
1:  wyvern dies, ability resolves, you choose new targets for rattle.
2:  Rattle 2 is countered, ability resolves, you choose new targets for rattle 1.
3:  Legality is checked on resolution on 2nd rattle, there are no legal targets remaining, 2nd rattle is countered, ability resolves, you choose new targets for rattle #1.
4:  See #3
5:  Wyvern dies, there are no legal targets remaining, 2nd rattle fizzles, ability resolves, you choose new targets for rattle #1
6:  See #3 
I hate dogs.
... is there a second creature you're redirecting to?

Let's assume there is one--I didn't mention it in the question because exactly what it is is unimportant.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

Hey Zammm, could you post the correct answer down here, please?
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My sig was so awesome it broke Browsers, [url= http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29455423/For_some_reason...]I had to remove it.[/url] Support Magic Fiction! Or Bolas will eat you
57193048 wrote:
You should never explain layers to people unless one of the following is true: they're studying for a judge exam, you're both in a Ben Affleck movie and it's the only way to save the world, or you hate them.
56663526 wrote:
We try to maintain the illusion that Magic cards are written in English.
56333196 wrote:
69511863 wrote:
Hell, if they steal from us, we'd be honored.
oh my god, AWESOME! Then changing the Slivers was your idea! haha lol
56734518 wrote:
Occassionally when catering, I've been put the task of arranging Fruit and Cheese or Grilled Vegetable platters. More than once a high class buffet has started with the mark of Phyrexia upon it. Since i've got a good eye for color so it looks great to people who don't get the "joke" (it's a niceley divided circle after all: the outline gives you 4-6 "regions" to work with), this has actually got me put on platter design more often, resulting in Phyrexia's presence at more private and industry events.
I have 6917 Planeswalker points, that's probably more than you. [c=Hero's Resolve]"Destiny, chance, fate, fortune, mana screw; they're all just ways of claiming your successes without claiming your failures." Gerrard of the Weatherlight[/c]
Hey Zammm, could you post the correct answer down here, please?

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
this is the thread that spawned this one, you can read it up for the correct answers
proud member of the 2011 community team
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
this is the thread that spawned this one, you can read it up for the correct answers

Well, I wouldn't say it spawned it, more like triggered. The Muck Drubb thread tweaked my memory and I remembered an old RT&T thread I posted on the topic several years ago. After digging it up I decided it could make a good Gathering Opinions thread.

I'll post the actual answer here in the thread after a day or two, once everyone's had a chance to respond.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I read the thread in question as it occurred. Suffice to say, my answers may be biased by that. I did try to approach them from a mindset based only on card text and what I know about the game, but separating that from what I've read is difficult. Also, my instinct is not to read cards carefully unless asked to, like in this case.

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1) Wyvern dies. The Wyvern ability checks for (a) a target spell that (b) targets only Wyvern. As Wyvern has left the battlefield, the Rattle is now targeting nothing. The Wyvern's ability thus has no legal target and fizzles. The Rattle then fizzles for having no legal target, the Wyvern having left the building.

2) Cancel counters the Rattle. Wyvern's ability redirects the remaining Rattle elsewhere.

3) The second Rattle fizzles for having only an illegal target. Wyvern's ability checks for (a) a target spell that (b) target only Wyvern. Unlike question 1, the Rattle is still targeting Wyvern, albeit illegally. Thus, the Wyvern's ability resolves, redirecting the Rattle.

4) Same as question 3.

5) The second Rattle fizzles due to having no target, then it's the same as question 1.

6) The second Rattle fizzles due to having an illegal target. Then it's the same as question 3. If the wording of Wyvern was "...spell or ability that targets only a single creature...", it'd be different.
You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?


I'm assuming here that there is another viable target somewhere on the board to move it to.
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1) if I am interpreting correctly, the spell will not be a valid target, since at the time of the ability's resolution, it is not successfully targetting anything and is therefore not a spell that is targetting only Silver Wyvern. I could see using LKI here, and saying it's targetting the wyvern even though the wyvern isn't there. that would feel more right to me, but I don't believe it's how it actually works.
2) exactly the same thing as if the rattle hadn't been played: you redirect as normal.
3) you can redirect. legality of targets isn't checked except on casting and on resolution. whatever happens in between doesn't get communicated to the spell. this is different from #1 because the wyvern still exists and is an object that can be referred to, whereas if it dies first then it's not.
4) same as #3
5) same as #1
6) same as #3

I think that, intuitively, it should redirect every time. but I don't believe it does.


 

120.6. Some effects replace card draws.

 

why are you here when NGA exists and is just better



Please also tell me how informed your answer is--are you making an informed guess? How informed? Or are just straight-up guessing based on intuition?



Is that clear to everyone? Good. Here we go:

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.



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I would assume that in all cases silver wyvern's ability would happen without a hitch since nothing is countering the ability. Even though the creature dies in some of the scenerios the ability is already on the stack and should resolve.

Edit:// After reading some of the other responses it appears that I was incorrect. I assumed that since the ability chose targets before going onto the stack that it would be placed on the stack independent of the creature (which seems to be the case with most abilities).

Don't be too smart to have fun
Ooh, goody... I love these. They break my brain.
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What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?



Ooh, I get this one... if I pay the cost for the ability, does it stay on the stack, even when the creature that activated it is long gone?
Er... I actually have no idea... and I'm not allowed to look up the rules...
... but my brain says "Cost is paid, end of story", so I'm guessing it all stays on the stack even when the Wyvern's dead. I think that's correct. You're going to make me go and look this up afterwards, you nefarious person, you!

So that gives me...
1) Second Rattle goes off and kills the Wyvern, then the retargeting ability is the next thing on the stack. It retargets the first Rattle, which then goes off.
2) Second Rattle is countered. First one is retargeted. Wyvern lives.
3) The second Rattle fizzles, as it now has an invalid target. The first is retargeted before it checks its target, so it can find a valid target and then go off. Wyvern lives.
4) As per #3.
5) As per #3, except the Wyvern is obviously dead.
6) As per #3, except the Wyvern lives on as an enchantment for a while.

So in terms of what happens to Death Rattle #1, the answer is the same in each case. It gets retargeted no matter what, as the cost has been paid. The Wyvern itself is obviously in a variety of different states at the end of each case, though.


~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
... is there a second creature you're redirecting to?

Let's assume there is one--I didn't mention it in the question because exactly what it is is unimportant.



The Bloodthrone Vampire in Case #5!
~ Guides I Have Been Silly Enough To Write ~
Budget Duals and Fetches in Multiplayer
CadaverousBl00m's Guide To Multiplayer Artifice
Multiplayer Tribal Format

~ Latest Multiplayer Ramblings: Appearing on my blog when I feel like it ~
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Rise of the Eldrazi Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Worldwake Post-Rotation
Kitchen Table Pricewatch: Zendikar Post-Rotation
Previous Multiplayer Concoctions
Elemental, My Dear Watson (Rainbow Elementals)
Watch The Little Birdies! (Bird Tribal with Proliferate)
Kavu Kavu Kavu Banana (Kavu Predator aggro)
Faerie Bleeder (The "Death By A Thousand Cuts" Faerie deck)
Braaiiins! (Mono-black Zombie control)
Verhexterring (Jinxed Ring / Grave Pact)
Flourishing Blowflies ( -1/-1 Counters)
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Jesus, zammm. Usually with these I at least have an intuition to go on, even if it winds up being blatantly wrong. This one really does feel like either you already know how it works, or you don't.

1) I wasn't confused by this until I actually thought about it. The situation as I understand it is "my creature is gone, making the kill spell lose its target, making my creature's ability have an invalid target", which seems to imply that the Wyvern's ability will be countered, so the first Rattle will NOT be redirected.
2) ...the second Rattle gets countered? I must be missing something because I don't see how this could impact either the Wyvern's ability or the first Death Rattle.
3) I think this might be different from #1. Prismatic Lace makes the Wyvern an invalid target for the Rattles. Is losing your target different from having an invalid target? I'll say yes so this answer will be right if #1 was wrong. The first Death Rattle on the stack is still targeting only the Wyvern, so the Wyvern's ability can redirect it.
4) Same as #3.
5) Same as #1.
6) GAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!! Same as.... #3.

My thinking behind 1 and 3 being different is based on the creature object. In 1, the object is gone entirely, while in 3 it's had a characteristic changed. I'm making the assumption that spells 1.) Can lose their targets as state-based effects, and 2.) Only care if targets are valid/invalid upon resolution. I understand that this might be very wrong.

Ooh, goody... I love these. They break my brain.

You're going to make me go and look this up afterwards, you nefarious person, you!

It's for your own good, honest! I'm making you a better player. ;)

Glad you enjoy them. Even if entertainment isn't the primary goal, it's a nice side-effect.

Jesus, zammm. Usually with these I at least have an intuition to go on, even if it winds up being blatantly wrong.

It is rather esoteric, isn't it?

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.


You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?


Hey, this one I'm really uneasy on, contrary to the other one.
Answer

For credibility, I like reading rules, but only when they're relevant. So while I'm relatively informed, there can be areas I have little information on. This is one of them.

I assume the root of the questions here are trying to change a target when there's no valid targets for it, which makes 5 and 6 strange questions, as they imply that you have other valid targets to change it to. These are the assumptions I'm working under:
You can only change the target to a valid target. If there are no other valid targets, then you can't change the target.
If the original target is no longer valid, you must change the target to a valid target. If there are no other valid targets, you can't change the target, and Death Rattle will retain having an illegal target.
Edit: I later noticed that Wyvern has a restriction that the ability must target it. However, I think that even if the Wyvern leaves the battlefield, the ability will remember the last state it was in, like Murderous Redcap shenanigans. Should this be false, the Wyvern's ability will fizzle on case 1, 2 and 5.

With that:
1: The Wyvern's ability has no targets to choose from, so trying to change it will accomplish nothing. Death Rattle is then countered when it tries to resolve.
2: The spell is countered. Wyvern's ability no longer has a target, and will fizzle. Canceling wrong Rattle.
Wyvern's ability works like normally.
3: Wyvern's ability changes the target to another valid target, if able. Otherwise, Death Rattle is countered on resolution.
4: Same as above.
5: Same as above. Bloodthrone Vampire is a legal target, unless you sacrifice it.
6: Same as above. Soul Sculptor is a legal target.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

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It's been awhile since I've hung out in the rules section, or even played a game for that matter, but that makes me even more intuitive, right?

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?



Resolution looks like: Second Rattle resolves, Wyvern dies. Wyvern ability resolves and redirects the first Rattle as it's still technically targeting the Wyvern, even though the Wyvern is gone now. First Rattle resolves, killing new target. This is the one I'm leaning towards.

2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?



The Cancel resolves, countering the second target. The Wyvern ability resolves and changes the first Rattles target. The Rattle resolves killing the new target.

3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?



The Lace resolves making the Wyvern green. The second Rattle checks it's target when it goes to resolve and fizzles for an invalid target. The Wyvern ability resolves as the first Rattle hasn't checked states yet and is still targeting the Wyvern. The first Rattle resolves and kills the new target.

4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?



Same response as three in terms of valid targeting and what not.

5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?



Same response as 1.

6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?



Essentially the same as 3. Second fizzles due to illegal targeting (Wyvern is no longer a creature), the rest resolves the same.

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?



Two is distinct because it's a straight resolution. The others are different because they deal with changing game states and the legality of targeting.

This is a signature.

Is that clear to everyone? Good. Here we go:

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.



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1. The second Rattle resolves, killing your Wyvern. The Wyvern dies, countering the first Rattle by state-based effect, which then counters the Wyvern's attempt to redirect it by state-based effect.
2. Nothing changes. The second Rattle's countered, and the first Rattle's redirected (presumably to an opponent's creature).
3. Both Rattles are countered by state-based effect, since the Wyvern is green. The ability is countered by state-based effect.
4. Both Rattles are countered by state-based effect, since the Wyvern has hexproof. The Wyvern can't be targeted again. The ability is countered by state-based effect.
5. Both Rattles are countered by state-based effect, and your Wyvern dies anyway, but your Vampire gets +2/+2 until EOT. The ability is countered by state-based effect.
6. Both Rattles are countered by state-based effect. The ability is countered by state-based effect. Your Wyvern is now an enchantment.

The big difference depends on if your opponent used Boseiju, who Shelters All.


Hey, that was fun.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
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I would say that, regardless of what happens to the wyvern (lives in most of the cases), its ability would still move the original killspell to the other target
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I would say that, regardless of what happens to the wyvern (lives in most of the cases), its ability would still move the original killspell to the other target



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State-based effects.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
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I would say that, regardless of what happens to the wyvern (lives in most of the cases), its ability would still move the original killspell to the other target



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State-based effects.

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State-based actions have nothing to do with anything here
[<o>]
Damn, that first one is tricky.  Here's my take.
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1) This is the only one I'm not sure of. I'm going to say it resolves, since Death Rattle still targets the object that was once Silver Griffin. 2) I'm not sure why this would have any effect on the ability. It clearly resolves normally. 3-6) While all of these make Silver Griffin an illegal target for the first Death Rattle, it is still targeted by it. Its ability will resolve.
You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?


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1) when the SW's ability tries to resolve, it is countered since it's target is no longer legal (since the 1st DR no longer targets the SW)
2) it resolves as normal (unless I missed something... I dont see the relevance of this part of the question)
3) it resolves as normal (SW's ability's target is still legal, since the 1st DW still targets it, despite the fact that the SW is no longer a legal target for either DR)
4) same as #3
5) same as #1
6) same as #3


I read the recent thread about this topic, and I think I understood the answers given, so I would like to think I got the above questions correct. That said, even if I did, there is a chance I might get this wrong in the heat of the moment.

~ Tim

I am Blue/White Reached DCI Rating 1800 on 28/10/11. :D
Sig
56287226 wrote:
190106923 wrote:
Not bad. But what happens flavor wise when one kamahl kills the other one?
Zis iz a sign uf deep psychological troma, buried in zer subconscious mind. By keelink himzelf, Kamahl iz physically expressink hiz feelinks uf self-disgust ova hiz desire for hiz muzzer. [/GermanPsychologistVoice]
56957928 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
That makes no sense to me. If they spelled the ability out on the card in full then it would not be allowed in a mono-black Commander deck, but because they used a keyword to save space it is allowed? ~ Tim
Yup, just like you can have Birds of paradise in a mono green deck but not Noble Hierarch. YAY COLOR IDENTITY
56287226 wrote:
56888618 wrote:
Is algebra really that difficult?
Survey says yes.
56883218 wrote:
57799958 wrote:
You want to make a milky drink. You squeeze a cow.
I love this description. Like the cows are sponges filled with milk. I can see it all Nick Parks claymation-style with the cow's eyes bugging out momentarily as a giant farmer squeezes it like a squeaky dog toy, and milk shoots out of it.
56287226 wrote:
56735468 wrote:
And no judge will ever give you a game loss for playing snow covered lands.
I now have a new goal in life. ;)
You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

These scenarions all assume that, at the start, the stack is as follows.


  • Rattle2, targeting Silver Wyvern.

  • Silver Wyvern's ability targeting Rattle1.

  • Rattle1, targeting Silver Wyvern.


I'm answering from the standpoint of someone who has long experience with solving such puzzles.


The general principle.
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When the Wyvern's ability comes to resolve, it must check its own target for validity. This means the ability must be able to check what its target is targeting. If the ability's target (Rattle1 in this case) is targeting the game object that is the source of the resolving ability (the Silver Wyvern). If it is, the ability proceeds to resolve. If the object is no longer there, or Rattle1's target has already been changed, the Wyvern's ability will be countered.

What the Wyvern's ability does not check, hoever, is whether the Wyvern is a legal target for Rattle1. All it cares about is that Rattle1's target is the source of the ability, not whether the object has changed characteristics.


Scenarios 2, 3, 4 and 6.
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These, bar Scenario 2, have the same basic framework; they change the characteristics of the Silver Wyvern to make it an illegal target for Death Rattle. Whether that is by changing the type or colour of the Wyvern, or giving it an ability or quality that makes it untargetable by Death Rattle (Shroud, Protection from Black or "This creature is untargetable" would all do in plaec of Hexproof)  matters not. All three play out the same way.

  1. When Rattle2 comes to resovle, it is countered by the game rules.

  2. When the ability resolves, the Wyvern is still there and Rattle1 still targets it, so the ability resolves and changes the target of Rattle1, assuming there is another valid creature for Rattle1 to target.

  3. When Rattle1 resolves it will destroy whatever it targets, unless it's still targeting the Wyvern, which is an illegal target. In that case Rattle1 will be countered.

Scenario 2 is very similar; the difference is that Rattle2 is countered by some spell or ability directly as the first step above. Scenario 2 then follows step 2 and 3 outlined above.


Scenarios 1 and 5.
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These work by removing the Wyvern from the battlefield, either by allowing Rattle2 to resolve and destroy the Wyvern, or by removing the Wyvern by another spell or ability - in this case sacrificing the Wyvern for a benefit.

  1. Rattle2 is removed from the stack, either by resolving or being countered owing to the nonexistence of its target.

  2. When the Wyvern's ability comes to resolve, it checks what Rattle1 is targeting and finds nothing. Therefore Rattle1 is an invalid target for the Wyvern's ability, which is countered on resolution for having no valid targets.

  3. Rattle1 is then countered for having no valid targets.

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You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.




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I'm a pretty good rules guru, could probably qualify for level 1 judge if I wanted.  (I've taken the practice test)  I've also played for like 10 years, so I've seen my fair share of wonkyness.

1) Your Wyvern dies, but you still need to ricochet the first kill spell somewhere.  If no valid targets, it fizzles.

2) Kill Spell 2 gets countered, but Kill Spell 1 still needs to hit something, even if your Wyv is the only valid target.

3, 4, 5 & 6) Kill Spell 2 will fizzle because it's target is now illegal, but Kill Spell 1 still needs to hit something.  If there's no valid targets, it will fizzle too.  Basically each of these scenarios makes the Wyv an invalid target.


Casual Magic player since 2003 (Onslaught Block). 60% Johnny, 40% Timmy. Want a free, graphics-based, collection database to inventory your cards? I made one! Feedback welcome. Program runs offline, includes powerful search options, art, Oracle text, data import/export, and a rigorously updated list of every card ever printed. Version 5.13 (Theros) now available!

So. Green needs an iconic creature type, eh? How about wurms!

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1) 2nd Death Rattle Resolves, destroys Wyvern. Wyvern's ability resolves changing the target of the 1st Rattle. 1st Rattle resolves, destroys another creature presumably.


2) Cancel resolves, counters 2nd Rattle. Wyvern's ability resolves changing target of 1st Rattle. 1st Rattle resolves, destroys another creature.


3) (I like how it even looks like the Wyvern is on Lace's card.) Lace turns Wyvern green. 2nd Rattle fizzles due to ineligible target. Wyvern's ability resolves changing target of 1st Rattle. 1st Rattle resolves, destroys another creature.


4) Ranger's Guile resolves, Wyvern is hexproof. 2nd Rattle fizzles due to ineligible target. Wyvern's ability resolves changing target of 1st Rattle. 1st Rattle resolves, destroys another creature.


5) Bloodthrone Vampire's ability resolves, she get's +2/+2. 2nd Rattle fizzles due to target not present at time of resolution. Wyvern's ability resolves changing target of 1st Rattle. 1st Rattle resolves, destroys another creature.


6) Soul Sculptor's ability resolves, Wyvern is an enchantment. 2nd Rattle fizzles from ineligible target. Wyvern's ability resolves. 1st Rattle destroys another creature.


First one of these of done!  I have a suggestion for the next one:


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This comes from the last FNM I went to.  Opponent has creature with regenerate ability and an aura granting vigilance.  Creature attacks.  I use removal spell to destroy creature before declaring blockers.  Opponent regenerates creature with activated ability.  What happens to creature?  (Don't feel compelled to use this or anything, just a suggestion.)


I dig some of the interactions here.

 
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1. It dies
2. It survives
3. It becomes green, meaning the Rattles can't target it/    
4. Can't be targetted.
5. Rattle's no longer have a target, they go to gy.
6. Rattle's can't target it.  


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You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?



Intuitively, I would say that Silver Wyvern's ability is source-referential ("Change the target of target spell or ability that targets only CARDNAME"), so it needs to be able to see the source of itself on the battlefield.  In that case, the ability wouldn't resolve in cases 1 and 5 because there is no longer a permanent named "Silver Wyvern" on the battlefield for its own ability to see.  In all other cases, Silver Wyvern's ability would resolve normally.

Somnia, the Evanescent Plane -- A 3-set Block
Set 1 — Somnia
Set 2 — TBD
Set 3 — TBD
Planeswalker's Guide to Somnia

Build Around This
A weekly MTG Cards and Combos forum game.
Build Around This #1 - Sage's Starfish Wish
BAT #1 was built using the Legacy format with Spiny Starfish, Sage's Knowledge, and Make a Wish. Winner: Dilleux_Lepaire with Fishy Starfishies. Runner-Up: JBTM
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This comes from the last FNM I went to.  Opponent has creature with regenerate ability and an aura granting vigilance.  Creature attacks.  I use removal spell to destroy creature before declaring blockers.  Opponent regenerates creature with activated ability.  What happens to creature?  (Don't feel compelled to use this or anything, just a suggestion.)

This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of everything that regenerate does, but that is a large problem with it. The wordage starts the confusion by making it sound like a recovery measure rather than a preventative one. Then you have all the processes required, including the arbitrary tapping that I have no memory of why it exists at all.

Really, zammm could post a entire entry on regenerate without all that many specific interactions and still get a wild variety of answers.

Down with regenerate, up with indestructible! 
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1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
Wyvern dies, wyevern's ability is countered due to having an illegal target, first rattle fizzles.

2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
Wyevern lives and the first rattle is sent to whatever nongreen motherlover you want.

3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
Same as 2 basically, though for slightly different reasons obvi.

4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
Once more with feeling.

5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
Both of the rattles end up fizzling.

6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
I'm guessing this is yet another retread of question 2. Second rattle fizzles, first one is redirected.

As for my level of information, you should know me well enough by now

Also, haven't read the thread yet obvi, but definitely wanna know if I got these right, since it seemed pretty obvious and there's usually some sort of trick to these .



This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of everything that regenerate does, but that is a large problem with it. The wordage starts the confusion by making it sound like a recovery measure rather than a preventative one.


Not really. The term "regenerate" sounds like recovery, but "The next time this creature would be destroyed" is pretty explicitly preventative .
Then you have all the processes required, including the arbitrary tapping that I have no memory of why it exists at all.


I assume for flavor reasons. This isn't like your animes where the green aliens can just grow back an arm like whatevs, regenerating actually takes effort :33. Also it makes it slightly less stupid in multiplayer. 
Thanks to Long_Con for the avatar.
River Guide
56756068 wrote:
58147568 wrote:
121816979 wrote:
56819178 wrote:
147112461 wrote:
Hi everyone,I have two questions. 1. If my opponent already controlled a planewalker , then he cast avacyn,angle of hope ,and resolved on battlefield.Now his planewalker in indestructible right?
[c]Avacyn, Angel of Hope[/c] -> Avacyn, Angel of Hope
No need to be so obtuse, maybe he's just trying to complement her. That's not too radical of a concept, I mean she is pretty acute, right?.
This right here should be a bannable offense :p
No, not an outright banning, that's too easy. He should be punished ... ... by degrees.
Yeah, could we get a write-up of what is actually supposed to happen?

I saw the other thread, but the details were slightly different, and my brain kind of turned off when people started quadra-quoting rules text and stuff.

I just want to see a nice layman's answer of what SHOULD actually happen, followed by the rules quotes of why.

Casual Magic player since 2003 (Onslaught Block). 60% Johnny, 40% Timmy. Want a free, graphics-based, collection database to inventory your cards? I made one! Feedback welcome. Program runs offline, includes powerful search options, art, Oracle text, data import/export, and a rigorously updated list of every card ever printed. Version 5.13 (Theros) now available!

So. Green needs an iconic creature type, eh? How about wurms!

One Billion Words - 1001 Fantasy Landscapes: Share DnD-ish landscapes for use in homebrew campaigns!

Yeah, could we get a write-up of what is actually supposed to happen?

Yes, you can.

So, for reference here's the initial scenario, with the answers provided.

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?


While I presented six scenarios in total, all six boiled down to one of two possibilities: either the Wyvern was dead at the time its ability attempted to resolve, or it was on the battlefield.* The meat of the question being asked is this: as Wyvern's ability starts to resolve, it checks the legality of its target. If the target is legal, the ability resolves and redirects the spell. If it's not, the Wyvern's ability fizzles and does nothing. So, in order for Death Rattle to be a legal target for the Wyvern's ability, it must "target[] only Silver Wyvern". So when the game asks whether or not Death Rattle is targeting the Wyvern, what answer does it get back when the Wyvern is in some way not a legal target for Death Rattle?

In scenario 1 and 5, the Wyvern is not a legal target because it's no longer on the battlefield. In scenario 2, it's a legal target.  In scenario 3, it's not a legal target because it's green. In scenario 4, it's not a legal target because it's hexproof. In scenario 6, it's not a legal target because it's not a creature.

The answer is thus: in scenarios 1 and 5, the game says that Death Rattle does not "target[] only Silver Wyvern", and thus the Wyvern's ability does nothing. In the other four scenarios, the game says that Death Rattle does "target[] only Silver Wyvern", and thus the Wyvern's ability resolves and redirects the Rattle.

Diving in to a more detailed explanation (sblocked so that you don't have to slog through it if you don't want to):
The rule behind this is rule 114.8 in the Comprehensive Rules, which lays out in detail what answer things get when they ask what something is targeting. The specific subrules we want are 114.8b and 114.8c. We'll start with 114.8c, which reads:

114.8c An object that looks for a "[spell or ability] that targets only [something]" checks the number of different objects or players that became the target of that spell or ability when it was put on the stack (as modified by effects that changed those targets), not the number of those objects or players that are currently legal targets. If that number is one (even if the spell or ability targets that object or player multiple times), the current state of that spell or ability's target is checked as described in rule 114.8b.


In layman's terms, this basically says that when you're checking to see if something's the "only" target of a spell (or ability--I'll just use "spell" for the rest of this post for convenience's sake, but assume this applies to abilities too), you check the number of things that were chosen as targets for that spell, no matter whether or not they're still legal. If that number isn't one, then obviously it can't be targeting "only" one specific thing and it fails the check. But if that number is one, then you continue to the next part of the check--you've determined that the spell A) has a target, and B) isn't targeting multiple objects, but you still haven't checked to see what it's actually targeting to see if it matches the description. So you do that next:

114.8b An object that looks for a "[spell or ability] that targets [something]" checks the current state of that spell or ability's targets. If an object it targets is still in the zone it's expected to be in or a player it targets is still in the game, that target's current information is used, even if it's not currently legal for that spell or ability. If an object it targets is no longer in the zone it's expected to be in or a player it targets is no longer in the game, that target is ignored; its last known information is not used.


Breaking it down in layman's terms again, you now check to see if the spell's targeting what it's supposed to be targeting. If whatever it's targeting is where it's supposed to be (where it was in when it was chosen as a target), then you look at that object as it currently is to see if it matches the required description. But if it's not where it's supposed to be, you ignore it.

In our scenarios 1 and 5, the Wyvern is not where it's supposed to be--it's in the graveyard instead. So as per 114.8b, we ignore it. Silver Wyvern's ability therefore can't determine what the object being targeted looks like (Having gotten back an "Error 404: Object "Silver Wyvern" not found" message), and so fizzles since it doesn't believe the Death Rattle is a legal target any more.

In the other scenarios, the Wyverm is where it's supposed to be, so we check its current information. Silver Wyvern's ability asks the targeted object "Are you the object known as Silver Wyvern?", gets back a "Yes", and so continues resolving, redirecting the Rattle. It doesn't matter whether or not the Wyvern is a legal target for the Rattle at the time.


*All the differences between the scenarios were intended to diffuse the "Oh, zammm's asking a question, so it must be trickier than it seems and the answer must not be what I think it is because otherwise why would he ask it" reflex. Seriously, people; if you're thinking about the answer deeply enough to be wondering why I'm asking the question, you're overthinking it. I'm not trying to trick you or test you or trip you up. There's no right or wrong answer, because I'm not asking for an answer. I'm asking for an opinion on what instinctively feels right, whatever that may be. Magic is a better game when the rules match up with what people instinctively expect them to be and I'd like to advocate making it a better game whenever possible, but I can't know what you expect the rules to be to be if you don't tell me honestly.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.


*All the differences between the scenarios were intended to diffuse the "Oh, zammm's asking a question, so it must be trickier than it seems and the answer must not be what I think it is because otherwise why would he ask it" reflex. Seriously, people; if you're thinking about the answer deeply enough to be wondering why I'm asking the question, you're overthinking it. I'm not trying to trick you or test you or trip you up. There's no right or wrong answer, because I'm not asking for an answer. I'm asking for an opinion on what instinctively feels right, whatever that may be. Magic is a better game when the rules match up with what people instinctively expect them to be and I'd like to advocate making it a better game whenever possible, but I can't know what you expect the rules to be to be if you don't tell me honestly.


That's the inherent problem of these threads though (Well problem isn't the right word, I enjoy them, but I guess it's... an inevitability). The very nature of the thread dictates that it's going to be a slightly obscure corner of the rules. I mean, I guess you could make a "What happens if you Lightning Bolt a WatchWolf?" to mix it up, but I don't think you'd gain any meaningful data from that .
Thanks to Long_Con for the avatar.
River Guide
56756068 wrote:
58147568 wrote:
121816979 wrote:
56819178 wrote:
147112461 wrote:
Hi everyone,I have two questions. 1. If my opponent already controlled a planewalker , then he cast avacyn,angle of hope ,and resolved on battlefield.Now his planewalker in indestructible right?
[c]Avacyn, Angel of Hope[/c] -> Avacyn, Angel of Hope
No need to be so obtuse, maybe he's just trying to complement her. That's not too radical of a concept, I mean she is pretty acute, right?.
This right here should be a bannable offense :p
No, not an outright banning, that's too easy. He should be punished ... ... by degrees.
That's the inherent problem of these threads though (Well problem isn't the right word, I enjoy them, but I guess it's... an inevitability). The very nature of the thread dictates that it's going to be a slightly obscure corner of the rules. I mean, I guess you could make a "What happens if you Lightning Bolt a WatchWolf?" to mix it up, but I don't think you'd gain any meaningful data from that .

I have considered mixing in some less obscure questions, but it's difficult to see where the right level of complexity lies, where it's straightforward enough that the answer's as expected, yet obscure enough that people won't know offhand that it's a simple question.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

That's the inherent problem of these threads though (Well problem isn't the right word, I enjoy them, but I guess it's... an inevitability). The very nature of the thread dictates that it's going to be a slightly obscure corner of the rules. I mean, I guess you could make a "What happens if you Lightning Bolt a WatchWolf?" to mix it up, but I don't think you'd gain any meaningful data from that .

I have considered mixing in some less obscure questions, but it's difficult to see where the right level of complexity lies, where it's straightforward enough that the answer's as expected, yet obscure enough that people won't know offhand that it's a simple question.



There's always the Riddle of Tarfire and Htarmy.

Or Cytoshaping a facedown card into a Grinning Demon.

Or what happens if you Oblation a token against a player with 1 card in their library. 
Thanks to Long_Con for the avatar.
River Guide
56756068 wrote:
58147568 wrote:
121816979 wrote:
56819178 wrote:
147112461 wrote:
Hi everyone,I have two questions. 1. If my opponent already controlled a planewalker , then he cast avacyn,angle of hope ,and resolved on battlefield.Now his planewalker in indestructible right?
[c]Avacyn, Angel of Hope[/c] -> Avacyn, Angel of Hope
No need to be so obtuse, maybe he's just trying to complement her. That's not too radical of a concept, I mean she is pretty acute, right?.
This right here should be a bannable offense :p
No, not an outright banning, that's too easy. He should be punished ... ... by degrees.
So, rules knowledge actually made me take the wrong conclusion.
That's awkward.

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)

You control a Silver Wyvern; your opponent casts Death Rattle targeting it. You activate Silver Wyvern in response targeting the Rattle. In response to that, your opponent casts another Death Rattle targeting your Wyvern. What happens when Silver Wyvern's ability resolves if...

1) ...you let the second Rattle resolve and kill your Wyvern?
2) ...you Cancel the second Rattle?
3) ...you Prismatic Lace your Wyvern to be green in response to the second Rattle?
4) ...you cast Ranger's Guile on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?
5) ...you sacrifice your Wyvern to Bloodthrone Vampire in response to the second Rattle?
6) ...you use Soul Sculptor on your Wyvern in response to the second Rattle?

Is there any difference between some or all of these scenarios? If so, what are they?

Once again, do NOT look up the rules before answering. Just answer. Right now. In an sblock.


Show

1)The first Rattle fizzles
2)The first Rattle kills the Wyvern because Rattle isn't a creature and not a legal target for wyvern's ability.
3)Both Rattles fizzle
4)Both Rattles fizzle
5)Your bloodthrone gets +2/+2 and both rattles fizzle
6)Both Rattles fizzle.

This is guesses based on my semi-informed opinion.
Anyway, now that this is over. I have another question.
What is the exact result in scenario 6, assuming you have no other creatures? Not so much if the ability can resolve or not, but what happens when it does?

Yxoque wrote:
This forum can't even ****ing self-destruct properly.

IMAGE(http://img.pokemondb.net/sprites/black-white/anim/normal/plusle.gif)