Staffs and UMD

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So i have a question again. Google and search function gave me different answers, and i didnt found anything in the FAQ or Books to it.


When i Use a Staff with Use Magic Device, i first have to make a UMD check against a DC 20, like for a wand. But can I use UMD to emulate a higher INT or Casterlvl in conjunction with a Staff. 


For example, i first roll for Using the Staff DC 20. Then i make a role to emulate a Class Feature (lvl in class then = roll - 20 according to SRD) and for that i role a 35, so my effective lvl would be 15. Then I emulate an ability Score, have a Lucky role and get a 40. My Emulated Ability score would now be roll - 15 = 25.


So would i cast a Spell from a Staff then with a casterlevel of 15 and an Int score of 25?


Greetings


Seeron


sorry as standard you can't use UMD to active staffs, only scrolls and wands
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Sorry, as standard, read the books Oma.

If you read the rule books properly, you will see that Staffs, like wands are spell triggered items, with the difference being that staffs contain higher level spells and a wider variety of spells, as well as being able to use the wielder's CL and relevant feats to determine the spell's DC etc.


The entry in the PHB states under the Use Magic Device skill

Use a Wand

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs



Meaning specifically You can use to to activate staffs. A specific DC isn't give, but like wands it would be a minimum DC of 20.

I would be inclined to make Staffs DC 20 + Caster Level, but there is no real specific given, so technically it is just a DC 20 like a wand as far as the rules are concerned. Casters only use their own CL etc if it is higher then the staff's minimum. You could attempt to use the scroll at a higher Caster Level and emulate a higher INT and any number of feats to inhance the spell, You would just make the appropriate rolls, so, yes it would work pretty much the way you described. 

thx for the fast answer.
Keep in mind that as staves use the Ability modifier and relevant feats of the user, that the standard DC 20 roll for using it will be rather on the weaker side, so to use effectively you will basically have to do the emulation rolls or else have very low DC spells (not always a big deal)

another question, when i cast for example fireball, which appears on the sorcerer and the wizard spell list? can i choose to use cha or int? or is the relevant stat of the creator used (so charisma, if a sorcerer created it)? and casterlvl would prob be the minimum casterlevel of the staff (so CL9 for Grade 5 spells), am I right?
Seeron, Yes you can choose to use either Int or Charisma in that case, the stat used by the creator isn't important.


The Caster level would probably be the minimum used for the staff, for the DC 20 to use (just like a wand) However you could attempt to emulate a higher caster level if you wished.
O is right but the rules of Staff need that you use your own ability score that you use to set the DC of yours own Spells then he need a key ability score for spells and a standard rouge don't have it and spells not are a class feature then a standard rouge can't emulate it, he need become a prestige class with access to spell to can use a staff.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
 Oma, please read the rules for Use Magic Device, Rogues can use it to cast spells from wands, scrolls and staves despite not having access to the spells, that is the whole purpose of Use Magic Device. They don't need to have spells as a class feature to use spell triggered items.

Rogues and Bards with high Int or Wisdom scores are common place, even so if they need a particular ability score then they can emulate it, as per the rules outlined in the Use Magical Device entry.
 Oma, please read the rules for Use Magic Device, Rogues can use it to cast spells from wands, scrolls and staves despite not having access to the spells, that is the whole purpose of Use Magic Device. They don't need to have spells as a class feature to use spell triggered items.

Rogues and Bards with high Int or Wisdom scores are common place, even so if they need a particular ability score then they can emulate it, as per the rules outlined in the Use Magical Device entry.

a bard can do it, bot a rouge can't because dont have key ability score as you say he can use wands and scroll but staff have different rules as saying in her description

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

"This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster. Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist than ones from other magic items, which use the minimum ability score required to cast the spell. Not only are aspects of the spell dependant on caster level (range, duration, and so on) potentially higher, but spells from a staff are harder to dispel and have a better chance of overcoming a target’s spell resistance."

Then he can active the item with a score of / then the spell can't be casted because you need the minimum ability score to cast the spell at last.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, under Use Magic Device it states:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check





So all a Rogue needs to do is emulate the ability score as desired.

Also as a staff is a spell trigger item there is no rule saying the user must meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell, just that it uses the wielder's ability score to determine the effects, just as a Wizard with Int 11 can use a Wand of Fireballs. The creator of the sttaff handles the minimum CL and Ability requirements.  It only uses the Ability Modifier to determine the spell's save DC. But even if the DM insisted upon the Ability being high enough the above rule to Emulate an Ability Score would be used.
Oma, under Use Magic Device it states:

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check





So all a Rogue needs to do is emulate the ability score as desired.

Also as a staff is a spell trigger item there is no rule saying the user must meet the minimum ability score to cast the spell, just that it uses the wielder's ability score to determine the effects, just as a Wizard with Int 11 can use a Wand of Fireballs. The creator of the sttaff handles the minimum CL and Ability requirements.  It only uses the Ability Modifier to determine the spell's save DC. But even if the DM insisted upon the Ability being high enough the above rule to Emulate an Ability Score would be used.

sorry the rule are for scrolls only not staff read it.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
it nowhere stated, that you need the key ability minimum to cast the spell from a staff. It's only stated, that ur key ability is used for the DC. That you need a minimum INT or CHA is stated in the Spellcasting feature of the caster class, so you dont have to apply this rule to staffs. As stated in the SRD "Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist". The important part here is the often, so it means, there are cases, where its not harder to resist, so with a lower DC then the same spell from a scroll or a Wand
it nowhere stated, that you need the key ability minimum to cast the spell from a staff. It's only stated, that ur key ability is used for the DC. That you need a minimum INT or CHA is stated in the Spellcasting feature of the caster class, so you dont have to apply this rule to staffs. As stated in the SRD "Because they use the wielder’s ability score to set the save DC for the spell, spells from a staff are often harder to resist". The important part here is the often, so it means, there are cases, where its not harder to resist, so with a lower DC then the same spell from a scroll or a Wand

but the use magic divice don't let you emulate an ability score in staff and the rule is that you need use your own key ability in spells and a character that dont cast spells dont have key ability in spells.

Emulate Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the
appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom
for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
Your effective ability score, appropriate to the class you’re
emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll, is
your Use Magic Device check result –15. If you already have
a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need
to make this check.

At last if your DM let use an ability score you need use CHA as the natural ability score for spells
or the ability score of the class that make the item

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma again you are wrong. Because nowhere under the rules does it bar Charisma Based casters from using Scrolls, Wands, Staves etc made by Inteligent casters, or vice versa. Point of fact, a Sorceror can cast a spell from a scroll written by a Wizard, and a Wizard can cast a spell from a scroll written by a Sorceror.

So the Rogue is free to emulate the Ability score of his choice to use the item, not that it matters. Also the Key ability for spells is Int/Wis/Cha, all characters have Inteligence. It's rediculous to say they lack the key ability of Int/Wis/Cha because of their class. And the UMD states that if a rogue already has a high enough score in that ability they don't need to emulate it.

And Nowhere is it stated that you need the key ability score to cast a spell from a Staff. Just like nowhere is it stated that you need the right ability score to cast a spell from a Wand. (and the staff uses the same rule to cast as the wand)

This isn't like a Scroll, which is a Spell Completion item (requiring that you are able to cast it and have the ability score/level to do so) A Staff is a Spell Trigger item and it states impicitely under Spell Triggered Items that  "Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells"

 There is no restrictions to the Rogue's Inteligence score to Cast a level 4 spell from a Wand, despite the need for an ability score of 14 to cast a level 4 spell, a Rogue with Inteligence of 8 can use a Wand with UMD DC of 20. A level 1 Wizard with 11 Inteligence can use Wand of Fireballs despite fireball needing an ability score of 13, Caster level of 5 to cast normally.

The Rogue therefore could use a Staff with a DC of 20 for the minimum caster level, albeit with a low Save DC.

The Rogue using a Staff of Fire, CL 8, with an Inteligence and Charisma of 8, Would make a DC 20 roll to cast a Fireball 8d6 damage, Reflex save (10+level 3 spell -1 Ability)

If the Rogue UMD +17 wanted, he could Emulate a Higher Class Level and Ability Score. He would make the Following Rolls:

Use the Staff: DC 20

Emulate A high Int, Rolls D20+17, gets 31 less 15 is 16 Inteligence (+3)

Emulate CL 10, makes a DC 30 roll.

If he makes those rolls he can Cast a Fireball 10d6 Damage, Reflex of 16 (10+level 3 spell + 3 ability) to save   


again read UMD and tell me in what part say that you can emulate an ability score for a staff, in the Rule comependium say the same, the emulate ability score only work in scrolls.
quote it please
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I've got a better idea, Oma. You quote where it says you can't. Can a rogue use UMD to cast from a staff? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a certain caster level? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a needed ability score? Yes. YOU QUOTE where it says that they can't all be used together, m'kay, pumpkin?
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
I've got a better idea, Oma. You quote where it says you can't. Can a rogue use UMD to cast from a staff? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a certain caster level? Yes. Can a rogue use UMD to emulate a needed ability score? Yes. YOU QUOTE where it says that they can't all be used together, m'kay, pumpkin?

then you are saying that you can kill any player with rolling a d4 because in any part say you can't???

the rule is clear that UMD to Emulate an Ability Score is only for scrolls if work like you say then a rouge can use it to Emulate a Great STR score to use a Magical melee weapon and deal more damage
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, Use a Scroll is under a seperate sub-heading from Emulate an Ability Score (which can be used for any number of things) The Sub-heading for Emulate an Ability Score just uses a scroll as an example and really what you are most likely to use it for.

This is the same as how the sub-heading for Use a Scroll and Use a Wand are actually only using a scroll or wand as an example, and specifically states for example under them

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs



The same rules can be applied to other items, not just scrolls and wands, but any applicable Magic Item. Scrolls and Wands are simply used as the most commonly available items at any level. In fact a scroll is the most likely magic item for a level 1 character to possess.


So there you go, Emulating an Ability Score is nor limited to only scrolls.  
Oma, Use a Scroll is under a seperate sub-heading from Emulate an Ability Score (which can be used for any number of things) The Sub-heading for Emulate an Ability Score just uses a scroll as an example and really what you are most likely to use it for.

This is the same as how the sub-heading for Use a Scroll and Use a Wand are actually only using a scroll or wand as an example, and specifically states for example under them

This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.
This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs



The same rules can be applied to other items, not just scrolls and wands, but any applicable Magic Item. Scrolls and Wands are simply used as the most commonly available items at any level. In fact a scroll is the most likely magic item for a level 1 character to possess.


So there you go, Emulating an Ability Score is nor limited to only scrolls.  

yes you can TRIGGER the Staff with UMD but you can't emulate an ability score
as example a bard can use UMD to use a staff using her CHA and the CL too if he like

Emulate ability score dont have any special note like this in the CR or the DMG
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Oma, it is right under Use Magic Device, fully explained, You can Emulate an Ability Score for the purposes of using any Magic Device to which an Ability Score would effect. It's written right there in the book, in clear, plain text. Emulating an Ability Score does not only apply to Scrolls it also "applies to other" magic items, as written under the sub-heading Using a Scroll.

Oma, Do you have such a fear of being wrong that you will deliberately Lie about the rules? I am begining to suspect that.
Oma, it is right under Use Magic Device, fully explained, You can Emulate an Ability Score for the purposes of using any Magic Device to which an Ability Score would effect. It's written right there in the book, in clear, plain text. Emulating an Ability Score does not only apply to Scrolls it also "applies to other" magic items, as written under the sub-heading Using a Scroll.

Oma, Do you have such a fear of being wrong that you will deliberately Lie about the rules? I am begining to suspect that.

if this work like you say then he can't cast from a staff because her abilitie score dont change and if he have 8 int and try to cast fireball from a staff the DC will be 12 and under the rules is unable to happen(the UMD dont support the emulation of the Staff only scrolls).

this is the main point of why the UMD dont support the emulation of an ability score in a staff

and again UMD support the trigger remember that many class like the bard have UMD and have spells.
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Oma, the entry specifically states under the subheading for scrolls that this also applies to other magic items. The rules state outright that Yes you can do this.

Do you even read the bull that you write? 

The Base DC for using a Staff is the same as a Wand,  "This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs." There is no requirement for being a Caster, or having access to spells for this use of UMD, in fact that is the whole purpose of UMD. "Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class.."

You are attempting to slap a restriction on it that not only doesn't exist, but that the rules outright state otherwise.

Oma, you are lying, outright lying, if you state that the rules don't say this.


From Rule Compendium UMD section
The use of UMD in scrolls and wands is for emulate that you have the spell of the Scroll or the wand in your Spell list

then you can use UMD to emulate that you have the spell of the staff in your spell list but not the ability score.


Emulate Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells).
Your effective ability score, appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll, is your Use Magic Device check result –15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

Use Scroll
If you’re casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you’re trying to cast from the scroll.
In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability score. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a SEPARATE Use Magic Device check. Using a scroll still has a mishap chance as normal. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Use Wand
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. Using the skill in this way also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma:

Under Use a Scroll is states that this use of the skill also applies to other to other magic items

Under Use a Wand you highlight  "wand’s spell on your class spell list" And by doing so you are deliberately and purposefully being a LIAR!

Because what the sentance says is

"Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list"

and then goes on to say

"This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."

Selectively misquoting text is lying!


Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.



 Its stated in the srd under the description of UMD in the section use wand.. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.


Oma:

Under Use a Scroll is states that this use of the skill also applies to other to other magic items

Under Use a Wand you highlight  "wand’s spell on your class spell list" And by doing so you are deliberately and purposefully being a LIAR!

Because what the sentance says is

"Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list"

and then goes on to say

"This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list."

Selectively misquoting text is lying!



sorry but under the "Use a Scroll" the check say that "THIS " use of UMD can be apply to other trigger items then, and the only one use in the "USE A SCROLL" is to cover the fact that you need the spell in your class spell list like the wand that is the same as saying "the use of this UMD check let you active the wand/scroll as if you had a spell list whit this particular spell on it"
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, under your interpretation of the rules, a rogue with UMD can't use a staff. Under the rules AS EXPLICITLY WRITTEN, a rogue with UMD can use a staff. Ergo, your interpretation is wrong. It's really that simple.

where say that a rouge can cast from a Staff, the full description in the last updated rules say that is a separate UMD check and this check in her section is only for scrolls.



 Its stated in the srd under the description of UMD in the section use wand.. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.



yes you can trigger the item but still you need a ability score that you can't emulate, remember that a bard have use magical divice and any oher mage can use it as a CC skill never say that a rouge can use a staff

as example a Wizard can use spells from a staff of healing if he use the UMD check to active it as if he had the spells of the staff in her class spell list but he can't emulate the ability score but as a spell caster he use her own key ability to use the staff and if he like he can use her own CL too
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Oma, both state that they allow you to use the item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" So I am failing to see Your point.

And the Use a Scroll entry specifically states that the rules for using a Scroll (and thus for Emulate an Ability Score) also applies to other magic items.

That means you DO NOT have to have the spell in your class spell list to use these items with UMD.

Not sure you understand the phrase "as if" 
as example a Wizard can use spells from a staff of healing if he use the UMD check to active it as if he had the spells of the staff in her class spell list but he can't emulate the ability score but as a spell caster he use her own key ability to use the staff and if he like he can use her own CL too



No Oma, to cast a Divine Spell he needs to have a Wisdom ability score, The Wizard's Inteligence score and the Wizard's CL in Wizardry will have absolutely ZERO effect on the Staff.

The Wizard, regardless of his level, would use the Staff's minimum CL and his Wisdom Ability Score for a Divine Spell, unless he choose to make the rolls to emulate a higher Wisdom Score and a higher Caster Level in the applicable class.
Oma, both state that they allow you to use the item "as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list" So I am failing to see Your point.

And the Use a Scroll entry specifically states that the rules for using a Scroll (and thus for Emulate an Ability Score) also applies to other magic items.

That means you DO NOT have to have the spell in your class spell list to use these items with UMD.

Not sure you understand the phrase "as if" 

sorry but only say that this UMD CHEK not the other UMD check that the description say that is separate.

yes as if you had it but you dont had it.

then the main point of why you as non spellcasting class cant use a staff is because you dont have any key ability for spells.

as example a rouge with 14 int, 14 wis and 14 cha try to use a staff to cast heal a spell level 6 that need you have at last 16 in your ability score then the staff need the key ability of the wilder to cast the spell but the rouge dont have any key ability, unlike in the case of a scroll when you only need the minimum key ability of the class of the one to made the scroll to cast it.

then in the case that the DM let you use the UMD to emulate the ability score to trigger the item you use your own ability score not a emulation as describet in the item to set the DC of the spell, the reazon of emulate is that you need that score for cast but in this case you use that score for cast from the staff unlike the wand or the scroll.

Then at last if you let this happen a rouge can use a fireball DC 10 and in D&D this can't be happen.
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So who is going to say that the SRD description of Use Magic Device is wrong?  A few key things in it:

Use a Wand (DC = 20 from table)
Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.


Emulate an Ability Score (DC = see text)
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.


Use a Scroll (DC = 20 + caster level)
If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).


This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Now as much as I HATE to say it things lead me to believe you could NOT use UMD to Emulate an Ability Score.  This is because of the DC to Emulate Ability Score and its "see text" which just points to scrolls and needing a high enough ability score to use them; nothing is said about using it for other things but then again it doesn't specifically say it can't be used for other things except the DC seems to be base on scrolls.  To use UMD to emulate a higher Caster Level I'd say you need to use "Emulate Class feature" so your CL = UMD roll -20 but that is assuming you consider CL to be a "class feature" that can be emulated.

Now it seems pretty clear to me that someone can use UMD to activate a staff.  It would also seem to me that you need to use your ability modifier to set the save DC.  When it comes to the CL you use with a staff I guess I'm not seeing why you couldn't use any given CL you have when you activate it using UMD; if you activate it normally you'd obviously use the CL of the class which is using the Spell Trigger but with UMD there isn't one so either you could use any CL you possess or you'll be stuck using the Staff's CL.
 

It is made pretty clear from both entries in those rulesets that Wands and Scrolls are used as the most common examples, and states outright that these rulesets apply to other magic items.

Wands and Scrolls are the most common and affordable Magic items that the party is likely to find in treasure (or be able to purchase) both are available at level 1 on the treasure tables. Staves only roll on the medium and major treasure tables for example and are only a 3% chance to obtain on the Medium Treasure table (66-68%) as opposed to a Scroll or Wand 28% chance for either. And Staff prices start at 16,500 gp, Wands at 375 gp and Scrolls at 12 gp 5 sp. Not to mention Wizards come out of the box with Scribe Scroll.

Yes at level 6 the party has a 1% chance on a roll of 100 to get a 3% chance for Staff as opposed to a 40% chance to get up to 3 rolls (28%) for Scrolls/Wands.

So Yes, the skill description talks of Scrolls and Wands, because chances are those are the only type of Magic items that they will ever get their grubby Rogue hands on to use. Add to this the affordability of buying a couple of useful wands outright (pocket change really), there are even builds for a Rogue Wand-Slinger build.


sorry but only say that this UMD CHEK not the other UMD check that the description say that is separate


 
Oma "This use of the skill also applies" refers to the entire sub-heading heading above it, which would include, written under the rules for scrolls:
 
"If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above)."

That is written directly in the rule that applies to other magic items, you can't pick and choose which part of the ruleset applies, the entire Sub-heading applies, simply replace Scroll with any other applicable Magic item.

Second, refering to the DC 10 Staff, the minimum UMD DC for a Wand/Staff is 20.

To emulate an Ability Score is the UMD roll minus 15, which means they will need a significantly high skill to get a decent Ability Score. 

For example, say at level 10 a Rogue has 13 Ranks in UMD, and a Char Modifier of +2, He has a less then 50% chance of rolling higher then his own ability so discounting the rolls that are equal or less) his average UMD result will be 15 (roll 15 + skill 15 minus 15 ability) so at most he will be adding a +1 or +2 DC to the spell.
  

read the description you can only use the effect of triggering not the one of emulate the ability score that is defined as other different check of UMD but clarifying that you need it in the case of a scroll, the emulate ability score description dont have the entry "can be used in other items that need an ability score".

the emulate ability score description say "To cast a spell from A SCROLL" never referred other kinds of items.
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Oma, it refers to the entire ruleset for Casting a Scroll, which specifically refers to emulating an Ability Score: "If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check "

And the reading of "This use of the skill also applies" is conclusively saying that for any magic item if you don't have a sufficient score in that ability you emulate the ability score with a seperate UMD check. If the above rule Emulate an Ability Score doesn't apply to other items then the seperate UMD check (because the rules for scrolls allows a seperate check) would by default with the same DC used to activate it, regardless of how high the Ability Score was.

Since that would be patently absurd, the Emulate an Ability Score is included in that rule "This use of the skill also applies"


I am actually on the fence on this one, the interpretation on if can apply to a Staff could go either way. But looking at the multiple rolls, and the relative DCs required, I don't see how it is broken. At best it gives a small boost to the DC, but is still well below what an equivelent level Wizard is capable of. 

As far as balance is concerned, a group relying on a Rogue with UMD as a primary spell caster needs any advantage it can get, and a group with a real spell caster in it would be wasteful to give a staff to a Rogue, and even if the Casters don't need it, it wouldn't be cost effective.
Oma, it refers to the entire ruleset for Casting a Scroll, which specifically refers to emulating an Ability Score: "If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check "

And the reading of "This use of the skill also applies" is conclusively saying that for any magic item if you don't have a sufficient score in that ability you emulate the ability score with a seperate UMD check. If the above rule Emulate an Ability Score doesn't apply to other items then the seperate UMD check (because the rules for scrolls allows a seperate check) would by default with the same DC used to activate it, regardless of how high the Ability Score was.

Since that would be patently absurd, the Emulate an Ability Score is included in that rule "This use of the skill also applies"


I am actually on the fence on this one, the interpretation on if can apply to a Staff could go either way. But looking at the multiple rolls, and the relative DCs required, I don't see how it is broken. At best it gives a small boost to the DC, but is still well below what an equivelent level Wizard is capable of. 

As far as balance is concerned, a group relying on a Rogue with UMD as a primary spell caster needs any advantage it can get, and a group with a real spell caster in it would be wasteful to give a staff to a Rogue, and even if the Casters don't need it, it wouldn't be cost effective.

the staff dont have this entry in her use "casting a spell from a staff requires a minimum score" then this use of the skill don't apply in staff
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That is where I am on the fence over it Oma, as I said, it will come down to the DM.

Myself looking at Staves, where you are looking at most Wands/Scrolls found in random treasure as "meh!" and have piles of them, you only have a 1% chance of a 3% chance to get a Staff in the treasure. Availability, affordability and practicality is going to make using a UMD for Staves as pretty non-existant for the most part.

Reliance on it as a Primary Spell Caster for a group would be almost laughable (and really a DM should let them have any edge they can find to make up for it) and it's not a cost effective strategy.

Additionally multiple rolls (any "1"s means he can't use it for 24 hours and possible negative mishap effects) that will only net him a small to modest boost isn't a game changer, and a Staff of Fire is 28,500 gp, a Wand of Fireball is 17,250 gp cheaper, close to 3 times the price. My opinion is go ahead you fool.
Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 
Ok, I'm not sure what's being argued about right now but let me say that if an foolish Rogue (WIS 6) did manage to active a Staff of the Woodlands use UMD the DC of the staff's spells with see the -2 WIS modifier and certainly not see the bonus from a high casting stat you'd normally see.  Is this practical?  No.  Is this how things would work?  I believe so.  Should the rogue be able to Emulate a higher WIS score?  Here I'm saying the rule so NOT allow it but if a DM decides to that is his houserule.

If you had a Spell Completion Item I'd allow Emulate Ability Score to function but when staves are Spell TRIGGER items there is nothing to hint that it can be done for them.

A Staff is just a super wand that can hold multiple spells while also looking to its user for some power.  If the user can provide more power in the form of caster levels that's great but if not there is still a minimum.  If the user happens to have the right insights (abilityscore) to use it more power to them but if they lack any insight into using the Staff it will be easier for targets to resists that use.
 

the problem is that the description of the staff use the key ability of the wilder as example

a bard took a staff of heal

he dont have heal and he use the UMD to use the staff as if the spell was in her spell list then he use her own key ability in this case CHA to set the DC of the staff and he can cast a heal from a staff made for a cleric.

the problem with the rouge is that he dont have the key ability score for the spells then he cant use a staff because the staff describe that use the key ability of the wilder for the DC and if you let a rouge use a staff the DC are Unknow and the rule of emulate an ability score dont talk about this special item.
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