Races revision - what do you want to see?

According to Mike's Twiiter feed we will see some work on races soon:

"Are races getting a revision soon? They've been the same since packet 1 and I'm not satisfied with the current design.
Yes, once skills are done we'll do another pass on them"

So what do you want to see changed?

I'm more or less happy with what we got. Even the fact that humans get huge ability bonuses.

Positive sideeffect: This makes the Min/Maxers play more humans and creates less freakish partys.


A Human Weapon Training trait for Human would be cool. Perhaps Human Subraces as well to give them more diversity.

The Halfling Fearless trait could instead make that they cannot be frightened, similar to the Monk Clear Mind feature.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

I don't even know where to begin. They're the worst incarnation of races that I've ever seen in D&D (though I only started with 3E). Let me see if I can make a list...
* Seriously reconsider doing sub-races, or at least seriously reconsider how they're done. Right now they imply that every minor cultural variation of a race needs its own sub-race, and that's going to be a nightmare.
* Remove cultural features (such as weapon preferences) from the set of mandatory traits. They get in the way of creating alternative cultures or other characters not belonging to the typical cultures.
* Semi-related, remove features that are only useful to a limited set of classes and roles from the set of mandatory traits. Pigeon-holing is bad wrong.
* Consider including more features like the Halfling's Lucky that grant something active to do with race rather than just having it sit there to make them more exciting. Maybe make them optional like cultural features.
* Strip Humans of their master race status by giving them actual unique racial features of their own. It's not that hard to come up with unique, thematically appropriate Human features.
* Come up with bonuses more creative than advantage. Thoes are going to get redundant real fast.
* Give characters options for their racial features. I've hinted at this above, but I just want to explicitly state it. And I don't mean from sub-races. There are far more elegant ways to introduce options than sub-races. Check out what Pathfinder does, for example.
I gave examples of the sorts of things that I'd like to see in this thread.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
I want racial abilities that are less situational and relevant across a wider range of classes.
Alternatively, an approach to racial features where you pick one from a grouping. Sub Races are a good start, and should continue to exist, but the fixed ability of the subrace should be something of general utility (Movement rate enhancement, Hit Die enhancement, ect) while the features that are much more class dependent (weapon bonuses, armour bonuses) should be selectable alongside other options either less pidgeonholing or guiding to different classes.
Flat out immunities should be sent packing, and replaced with advantage against/resistance (see the Dwarf's most recent way of dealing with poison for my prefered method).
As for Bonuses, I would prefer a single +2 (by sub race or possibly from a very tight, 3 at most, 2 prefered, spread of attributes) if we keep the massive Human bonuses.

Speaking of...
I personally detest the Uber-mensch and Uber-boring Human. 
Give them something distinct rather than blandly over powering. 
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
A hard division between Nature and Nurture.
Some sort of human gimmick that isn't mathematical superiority.
I think C_C sums it up pretty well.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Some more balance between the races would be nice.

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

* Shadar-kai with dark background but the link whithout shadow plane should be a option. 

* A good halfling desing: the hairfeets hobbit-like should be only a optional subrace.

* Little PC races (halflings, gnomes...) don´t need be warriors with heavy armour, but most of times they were rangers, rogues or the classic spellcaster is boring. (I can change the background, but the racial traits should allow different styles and classes).

* I suposse the high elves could use the title of eladrins because some ones from their ancestors were the CG outsider elandrines, and they would be very proud by it.

* I would like the return of half-ogre, but with a different style to half-orc

* Shardminds would need alternative origin myths.

* Wilden should be plant fays linked to dryads and treants. 

* Player handbook 2, 3... should have got a minimum of six PC races. 

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

Like, Plaguescared said, Halfling fearless should be straignt immunity to the frightened condition. Not total fear, but no condition.

Make human less awesome and boring.


Make weapon training modular. Somewhere there should be written that racial weapons training can be altered by DMs. Just to get it in the heads of DMs and players. My Dwarfs use axes and spears.

Dwarves should get 2 weapon groups and suggest axes and hammers.
Elves and Halflings should get 3 actual weapons and also get proficiency with them.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Make weapon training modular. Somewhere there should be written that racial weapons training can be altered by DMs. Just to get it in the heads of DMs and players. My Dwarfs use axes and spears.

Dwarves should get 2 weapon groups and suggest axes and hammers.
Elves and Halflings should get 3 actual weapons and also get proficiency with them.


You do realise that this would turn into "whatever weapons the player plans on using", right, completely removing the entire point of including them for flavor in the first place?
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
The problem with racial weapons is that they are worthless with most classes. If they are given to a race it should be as a minor bonus not as the major bonus that they are now. AS it is right now ,Im not sure elves make better wizards than dwarves , but dwarves make better melee fighters than elves and humans are better archer fighters than elves(even without the bow hd increase).

These new forums are terrible.

I misspell words on purpose too draw out grammer nazis.

I'm happy now, I'll probably be happy if they change them. For me, it's very hard to make them in a way I don't like.
@faer4

The DM chooses what weapons the race uses. Not the player.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

It's mostly good as it is.

I like the nature (race) vs culture (sub-race).
Anything that would be build specific (halfling stealth, elf cantrip, weapon training) should be in the sub-race.

Humans are allowed to be boring.  We need something for people who don't want to remember any special abilities.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I've actually had a really good experience with Humans. It's much easier to build a quick character that's guaranteed to have the racial features matter, and it has the nice side effect of "normalizing" party makeup, because often the correct optimization choice is to play a Human. It does a lot for a slightly lower stat roll as well.
I very much like the skill training as a racial feature, and I'd like to see it expanded to represent the natural stealth/perception/etc. of races. It's one less thing to think about after writing it down on your character sheet.
Personally, I don't like the huge laundry list of benefits that comes with a race. Lots of those things seem to never come up or be forgotten endlessly. Maybe it's different for players who see races as a larger part of their character.
So it's ok to to be a min-maxer as long as you play humans instead of half-ogres?

Seriously?

Humans need actual features, I'm sick of this + stats nonsense.
The races need to be roughly balanced and these vecna awful weapon and armor abilities need to die in a fire.
I'd like the abilities to feature something like 4e encounter powers to keep the race an active and influential part of the character, but I'm not holding out too much hope for that at this point. (Ever since the monk released I've been increasingly pessimistic, and considering where I started from...)
Basically I would really like it if the designers would go and spend more than 5 minutes on the races. 
Humans need actual features, I'm sick of this + stats nonsense.

Why?

I'm not saying humans are balanced.  But why does every race need to have special features?  What's wrong with a boring race for boring people?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

1. Boring should not be encouraged/endorsed by a GAME.
2. Because even if there is a boring race it shouldn't be humans. We're nasty crafty social buggers and should mechanically represented as such, let elves be the boring race, they're already dull, lifeless, and overhyped.
3. Because balancing huge stat boosts vs. features is very difficult and failure prone, better to just keep the stat boosts and features as separate pools that are rougly the same size accross the races.
Personally, I don't like the huge laundry list of benefits that comes with a race. Lots of those things seem to never come up or be forgotten endlessly.

Well said, this is what I think too.

Raptorans in 3rd edition were also nice from this point of view. Passive modifiers and flight ability : end of racial management. Even racial feats were passive modifiers.

Humans have another passive racial feature : if you give racial powers to them, a lot of human players will ask why as real humans they do not have this power.
One interesting solution to translate the human adaptability would be to make them the multiclass masters, but this kind of feature is useless when a human do not multiclass.
Stop with the boring argument, it's boring for people who like to bore themselves with lot of racial sidenotes on their character sheets.

It could be said that it's more interesting to actually play the race than memorize or read through the list of racial abilities.

The fact is that humans have always been the solution when you don't care about feeling like a mutant with your character. If humans are changed, everybody is forced to play a mutant.
I'm not pushing for mutant humans, the ones in the playtest are the mutants.

I'm saying that humans need a long list, I'm saying they should have features and unique abilities, just like all the races should.

I'm not saying the races should have lots of features either, I kind of think the raptorian model is worth looking into. 1 major ability that the player is likely to use actively and a couple of passive benefits. I like that model, I wouldn't re-print the 3.5 raptorans as a 5e race, but the basic model is perfectly acceptable to me.

Dragon born
Active power - dragon breath
passive - fury, ressilience

Yeah that would be a more than acceptable format.

 
Stop with the boring argument, it's boring for people who like to bore themselves with lot of racial sidenotes on their character sheets.

It could be said that it's more interesting to actually play the race than memorize or read through the list of racial abilities.

The fact is that humans have always been the solution when you don't care about feeling like a mutant with your character. If humans are changed, everybody is forced to play a mutant.




I agree, keep humans simple.    The designers should not consider the human to be a difficult race to design at all.   


Simple =/= boring

I don't mind simple, I dislike the thoughtless, OP, and uninspired approach shown for humans in the packets so far. 
1. Boring should not be encouraged/endorsed by a GAME.
2. Because even if there is a boring race it shouldn't be humans. We're nasty crafty social buggers and should mechanically represented as such, let elves be the boring race, they're already dull, lifeless, and overhyped.
3. Because balancing huge stat boosts vs. features is very difficult and failure prone, better to just keep the stat boosts and features as separate pools that are rougly the same size accross the races.

Well i agree with 3.  Though it's not impossible.

1) Boring is a matter of opinion (my opinion in fact).  But i know several players who would really appreciate having a simple race with less to remember or use.  There should be options for them.

2) Humans seem like the ideal boring race.  They are, by definition, are not fantastic.  It's the mundane baseline that every other fantasy race is compared to.

Not saying it can't be tweaked.  Like say...

Human Adaptability: +1 to any stat.
Human Martial Versitility:  Choose a specific weapon, increase the die size by 1 step.
Human Spell Versatility: You know an extra spell.
Human generic bonus #4: Simple bonus to Z.

But it should still be passive.  And not something you need to remember (bonus vs poision/charm/fear/sleep/hiding/ect).


I'm also ok if elves and dwarves are very boring as well.  They are too close to human IMO.  Though boring should be limited to only a very few races.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

If we had each race have a major feature, 2 minor features, and an active somewhere that can be swapped out for a passive, would that please everyone overall? Then allow one additional feature that is based on culture.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Not at all, so it's probably the perfect compromise.
Just to chime in, I like mechanically boring humans. It forces players to make their characters interesting in other ways, namely the Role part of roleplaying.
Ok by that logic then all races should be boring.

Furthermore that's bull people don't roleplay because a specific mechnic is boring, they roleplay because they find it fun. DnD is cool because it brings the theatre nerd and the chess nerd together. Do they always mesh? no. Does the DM have to juggle them a bit? yes. Is nuking the mechanics going to make the chess nerd into a theater nerd? no way in hell.
Just to chime in, I like mechanically boring humans. It forces players to make their characters interesting in other ways, namely the Role part of roleplaying.

I don't think it forces anyone to do anything. I know a few people that would play a human simply because they don't want to RP a fantasy race, regardless of mechanics involved. Those that want to roleplay will roleplay regardless of mechanics, and the opposite is also true.

Magic Dual Color Test
I am White/Green
I am White/Green
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I am both orderly and instinctive. I value community and group identity, defining myself by the social group I am a part of. At best, I'm selfless and strong-willed; at worst, I'm unoriginal and sheepish.
Just to chime in, I like mechanically boring humans. It forces players to make their characters interesting in other ways, namely the Role part of roleplaying.


Agreed. To me, the slew of Elf, Dwarf, etc. racial features detract from roleplaying background and class, which I see as much more important.
Of course, many others have games that focus more on race. Maybe it should be a modular thing? 
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with mellored (except for the "boring" humans/elves part, at least as a mandatory or even default).  There needs to be a race that, by default, has no active/need to remember features.  Humans are the best and most obvious choice for that race. 

Giving them higher attributes is a total nonstarter on so many levels (balance issues, humans as the master race that are literally and objectively better than everyone else [even if they could be balanced against features, they'd still be "better" in the sense of stronger/smarter/tougher/wiser...], stealing other races' thunder insofar as the most dexterous characters are humans not elves/halflings and the toughest are humans not dwarves...)  But passive abilities that you don't need to remember, like extra skills/feats/spells, are fine and they let people who don't want to remember extra features shift their brainpower to more important things.  If you want a more flavorful human, I'd be up for racial feats that provide active/situational bonuses, or even options to swap out your passive abilities.  But there really should be at least one option that players who don't like excess features or for racial choice to be "important" can play. 
I'm pretty much satisfied with what we've got. I really like the sub-races and want to see many more of them. Humans I think are blanced as long as they only get the stat boost and no other features. Humans are supposed to be the "neutral" race after all, I don't think they should have any features that push them toward a particular class like other races are inclined to do. I also agree with how they've done weapon familiarity, because just being born an elf doesn't make you good with a longsword, BUT if you trained to use a longsword and also grew up in an elf society, you're likely to use it better than a human would. Makes sense to me.
I get that Humans have traditionally been there for those that want a simple race whose features they never need to remember past character creation, but there are just too many logical flaws in this argument:

1) Humans have also actually traditionally been the most complex race to build a character from because they've always had more options. Bonus feat? Congrats, now you have to look at the huge list of options to pick something from. Bonus skills? Congrats, now you have to look at what all of these do and pick one of them out too. It is for this reason that many newer players that I've introduced from the game have actually shied away from Humans even if they are looking for something mechanically simple.

2) Features like bonus feats, bonus skills, bonus at-will powers don't actually offer simplicity but rather the illusion of simplicity. The illusion is that your race isn't giving you anything complicated, but the reality is that the complicated stuff is just scattered to a bunch of other different places on your character sheet instead. What is the actual difference between using your Human bonus feat to pick, I don't know, a feat that lets you re-roll all natural 1s on your attack rolls or instead just giving Humans a unique feature that does the same thing? Nothing but where it gets put on the character sheet.

3) Some people like to have a boring race option? Okay, but why should it need to be Humans? I am dead serious. If you want race not to play an overt part in your character's mechanics, why should you be restricted to Humans and not have the option to play mechanically simplistic Elves or Dwarves or Halflings? And furthermore, for those of us that do want to play exciting, dynamic races that give us something to actually do every once in a while, why should be restricted from picking Humans if that's what best fits our character concept? It's not like it's impossible or even especially difficult to come up with unique and exciting Human features that are also thematically appropriate, so why shouldn't we?

The only way to please everybody here is going to be for races to have multiple forms, a simplistic form for those that don't want to put any thought into them and a more exciting form for that of us that want our races to actually do something. But then again, how is this any different than wanting simplistic versions of all of the classes? Like the people that actually want the Fighter to be nothing but "I either full attack or charge" every round. That's what I feel like the major hole is in the argument of the people wanting the simplistic Human. Uh, this is D&D. We don't just make simple versions of everything just for people who can't handle remembering one or two little features.

Like, Plaguescared said, Halfling fearless should be straignt immunity to the frightened condition.

I think that outright immunity is lazy. There are plenty more interesting ways to deal with such a features, including at least making immunity conditional. For example, "You cannot be frightened except by a creature that has at least five more maximum hit dice than you have.". Even that it more interesting and probably a heck of a lot more thematically appropriate.

I very much like the skill training as a racial feature...

Skill training is completely nonsensical as a racial feature. Skill training should represent actual training, not some innate capacity that somehow gets in the way of actual training. This goes back to making sure that they get to separating actual innate features of a race from crap that's just cultural standards and should be set off to the side as optional at best. You can't be trained in something as an innate part of your being unless you're like a Deva or something.

Humans have another passive racial feature: if you give racial powers to them, a lot of human players will ask why as real humans they do not have this power.

Easy, give them a racial power that we do have. We just don't notice it in the real world because we have no other existing races to compare ourselves to here. It's really not that big of a challenge to come up with such features.

I also agree with how they've done weapon familiarity, because just being born an elf doesn't make you good with a longsword, BUT if you trained to use a longsword and also grew up in an elf society, you're likely to use it better than a human would.

No, that's ridiculous. Not all Elven societies are going to be identical across all campaign settings, and even for the ones that do fit that standard trop, there will be Elven characters that exist outside of that standard Elven society. The whole "raised by another race" thing is pretty common.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
If you want a more flavorful human, I'd be up for racial feats that provide active/situational bonuses, or even options to swap out your passive abilities.  But there really should be at least one option that players who don't like excess features or for racial choice to be "important" can play. 

That works.

In fact, boring/simple should be the default for everything.  If you don't want anything else, you don't look any further.  If you want something more complex, then you can handle the minor complexity of swaping for another feature.

So like..

Race:
Simple bonus X. (weapon bonus)
Simple bonus Y. (stat boost)
Simple bonus Z. (vision/speed).

Options:
Swap bonus X for simple bonus P.  (bonus spell)
Swap bonus Y for situational bonus Q.  (posion immunity)
Swap bonus Z for limited power. (2x/day rerolls).

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Possible fix for the perceived OPness of the human. Take their blanket +1 to ability scores away, let them keep a +1 to the ability of their choice, give them a trait that lets them pick 2 of their class boosted ability scores. 
Crimson:

First, I think there is an important difference between complexity at character creation and complexity at the table.  Picking an extra feat/skill/spell is a very different thing from remembering every time you are targeted by poison that you have a bonus that applies here.  And I can definitely imagine people preferring the one to the other. 

As to your second point, about play complexity just being moved around, I hadn't thought of that.  It's pretty accurate for feats, less so for extra spells/skills (you're not adding a whole new type of thing when you get an extra skill, you're just finding a bonus marginally more often when you look over your list of skills as you already do most times you're rolling an ability check).  But then, even for feats, it lets you shift some importance away from race and adds some extra customization.  And there are plenty of other passive features that aren't adding complexity, like larger damage dice for certain weapons (which would, like everything else, be subject to DM customization if he decided to make a world where the standard trope didn't apply), larger hit dice (not that I actually recommend stealing the dwarves' thunder on that).  It doesn't add at-table complexity to right down "d10" instead of "d8" next to your longsword.

Third, I disagree with you factually here.  D&D has always, up to 4e, provided choices for players who like simpler characters.  The fighter has always been simpler to play than the wizard, and while that's not a decision I necessarily agree with it definitely was a decision that was consciously made and which they have consciously decided to continue making.  How many times have the designers seen fit to mention "and if you don't like maneuvers, you can just use your ED for extra damage all the time"?  One simplified choice and not a simplified version of all choices has always been and will likely to continue to be the norm.  Human is at least as good a choice as any for that option.  Although I wouldn't mind at all if they made "simplified" versions of all the races.
I very much like the skill training as a racial feature...

Skill training is completely nonsensical as a racial feature. Skill training should represent actual training, not some innate capacity that somehow gets in the way of actual training. This goes back to making sure that they get to separating actual innate features of a race from crap that's just cultural standards and should be set off to the side as optional at best. You can't be trained in something as an innate part of your being unless you're like a Deva or something.


I see what you mean in that races should reflect innate, inborn ability instead of cultural standards, and for the most part I agree (although different abilities based on coming from a different society make sense to me). However, the advantage of the skill training is it's much easier to remember than "advantage on all perception checks." It occupies the section of the character sheet that players reference if they're making a perception check. Furthermore, it's pretty easy to conceptualize as "this individual is innately gifted in this specific skill because of their race; therefore it's as if they've been trained in it."
1. Boring should not be encouraged/endorsed by a GAME.
2. Because even if there is a boring race it shouldn't be humans. We're nasty crafty social buggers and should mechanically represented as such, let elves be the boring race, they're already dull, lifeless, and overhyped.
3. Because balancing huge stat boosts vs. features is very difficult and failure prone, better to just keep the stat boosts and features as separate pools that are rougly the same size accross the races.

Well i agree with 3.  Though it's not impossible.

1) Boring is a matter of opinion (my opinion in fact).  But i know several players who would really appreciate having a simple race with less to remember or use.  There should be options for them.

2) Humans seem like the ideal boring race.  They are, by definition, are not fantastic.  It's the mundane baseline that every other fantasy race is compared to.

Not saying it can't be tweaked.  Like say...

Human Adaptability: +1 to any stat.
Human Martial Versitility:  Choose a specific weapon, increase the die size by 1 step.
Human Spell Versatility: You know an extra spell.
Human generic bonus #4: Simple bonus to Z.

But it should still be passive.  And not something you need to remember (bonus vs poision/charm/fear/sleep/hiding/ect).


I'm also ok if elves and dwarves are very boring as well.  They are too close to human IMO.  Though boring should be limited to only a very few races.




Humans work more as a baseline when other races are exceptionally different.    This worked in AD&D because other races had limitations, penalties, and bonuses.  The game was designed to make humans the most common race simply because of the options available.  


Humans have another passive racial feature : if you give racial powers to them, a lot of human players will ask why as real humans they do not have this power.

That's a silly assertion. 4e Essentials gave humans a active racial power (Heroic Effort), and no human player has ever wondered this, because human players understand they're playing a game and they recognize what the power represents because they're not morons. There's plenty of actual constraints on race design without having to fabricate hypothetical ones. I mean, if you give humans Dragonbreath or Fey Step or something then sure. People will wonder why humans can breath energy or teleport. But nobody would suggest something like that.

Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer. Swanmay Syndrome: Despite the percentages given in the Monster Manual, in reality 100% of groups of swans contain a Swanmay, because otherwise the DM would not have put any swans in the game.
First, I think there is an important difference between complexity at character creation and complexity at the table. Picking an extra feat/skill/spell is a very different thing from remembering every time you are targeted by poison that you have a bonus that applies here.

How? I'm completely serious. How is it different? How is it any harder to remember "I have resistance to poison damage from my race" than it is to remember "I have +4 initiative from a feat I got from my race"? And don't you dare say that it has anything to do with where they are physically on the character sheet, because all that's going to do is make me go off on a rant about how official characters sheets have always been terrible at dealing with conveniant placement of conditional benefits and how everbody should be making their own custom character sheets anyway so they can put things right where they'll more easily remember them.

And there are plenty of other passive features that aren't adding complexity, like larger damage dice for certain weapons (which would, like everything else, be subject to DM customization if he decided to make a world where the standard trope didn't apply), larger hit dice (not that I actually recommend stealing the dwarves' thunder on that).  It doesn't add at-table complexity to right down "d10" instead of "d8" next to your longsword.

This I actually completely agree with. Want to make the Human simple? Come up with simple passive features to give them. That way that can at least still be unique and don't just need to front-load all of their complexity into charater creation.

Third, I disagree with you factually here.

It wasn't a "factual" statement, so you can't disagree with it "factually". I am well aware of what D&D has always done with Humans, Fighter, and so. I'm saying that those were bad ideas and that it's time for a change. The desire of somebody to play a simple Fighter is not any more important than the desire of somebody else to play a complex Fighter, the desire of somebody to play a simple Wizard is not any more important than thte desire of somebody else to play a complex Wizard, the design of somebody to play a simple Human is not any more important than the desire of somebody else to play a complex Human, and the desire of somebody to play a simple Dragonborn is not any more important than the desire of somebody else to play a complex Dragonborn. Saying "Oh, we'll make this one race/class simple so the rest can be complicated" is just ignoring the broader problem that different people like different levels of complexity no matter what they're playing. This is something that should be examined seriously and addressed through modules, not something hand-waved by creating severe mismatches among the character options.

Human is at least as good a choice as any for that option.

It's also as bad a choice as any.

However, the advantage of the skill training is it's much easier to remember than "advantage on all perception checks."

I think that granting advantage is also lazy and undesirable, so that argument is not going to sway me. I like the advantage mechanic, but if it's anywhere and everywhere, then it's going to get old really, really fast, especially considering that it doesn't stack and can thus easily be made redundant. Best to keep advantage to being a situational benefit rather than something that's "always on" for anything.

Furthermore, it's pretty easy to conceptualize as "this individual is innately gifted in this specific skill because of their race; therefore it's as if they've been trained in it."

No, that makes no sense at all. It sounds like it makes sense at first, but that's just before you really get to thinking about it and realize that this innate superiority somehow means they can't then actually train that skill for some unexplainable reason. What would model what you describe is the race simple granting a +3 bonus to the skill, meaning they're so good at it that it's like they're trained, only it makes more sense because then they can actually still train. Am I an advocate of simple +X skill bonuses? Maybe, maybe not. There are more interesting ways to do it too. I'm just saying that training and always-on advantage specifically are nonsensical and lazy respectively.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Basically a race shouldn't get a skill training but a skill bonus. 

So elves should not get trained in spot, but a bonus to spot.

Racial Skill training would be the result of hive mind/past life memory type stuff.