Balance of the Force

G-Canon has explicitly established the "balance of the Force" to be the elimination of the Sith, who are a corruption of the Force, and all other views are the "Potentium Fallacy"...but is that just Jedi dogma?

The Clone Wars Animated Series' introduction of The Ones, however, suggests a broader view, where there are two sides to the Force, suggesting that a balance exists of the Light and Dark Sides.

Both views have support in canon, but that support may be internally inconsistent.

What do you think? 
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I figure if either of the views is more likely to be correct, it's the view of the Jedi.


The Jedi aren't Paladins. They're basically monks dedicated to making sure the galaxy doesn't die in a fire for no good reason. The Sith, and other dark siders, are pretty much always unnatural, almost abominations. Use of the Dark Side physically and spiritually corrupts. That doesn't speak of something which exists in a state of balance, it speaks of a perversion of nature, or in this case, The Force.

There isn't a "Light Side".

There's The Force, and it's corruption, which is called the Dark Side of The Force.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I figure if either of the views is more likely to be correct, it's the view of the Jedi.


The Jedi aren't Paladins. They're basically monks dedicated to making sure the galaxy doesn't die in a fire for no good reason. The Sith, and other dark siders, are pretty much always unnatural, almost abominations. Use of the Dark Side physically and spiritually corrupts. That doesn't speak of something which exists in a state of balance, it speaks of a perversion of nature, or in this case, The Force.

There isn't a "Light Side".

There's The Force, and it's corruption, which is called the Dark Side of The Force.



But the Light Side is mentioned in the movies. If there is a Light Side, there must also be a Dark Side, by logical reasoning.
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I figure if either of the views is more likely to be correct, it's the view of the Jedi.


The Jedi aren't Paladins. They're basically monks dedicated to making sure the galaxy doesn't die in a fire for no good reason. The Sith, and other dark siders, are pretty much always unnatural, almost abominations. Use of the Dark Side physically and spiritually corrupts. That doesn't speak of something which exists in a state of balance, it speaks of a perversion of nature, or in this case, The Force.

There isn't a "Light Side".

There's The Force, and it's corruption, which is called the Dark Side of The Force.



But the Light Side is mentioned in the movies. If there is a Light Side, there must also be a Dark Side, by logical reasoning.



That doesn't actually logically follow.


Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Anakin didn't bring balance to the force by nearly whiping out the Jedi. He did so by killing Palpatine, and "destroying" Darth Vader, ending the taint of the Dark Side on the Force.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
How can you have something balanced if one side is winning?
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First, I would like to retract my statement in the other thread that the Force is neutral.  Rethinking on my part has made me change my stance to the Force being unaligned in 4e terms, or embodying all alignments, like Io, in 3.5e terms of D&D

For some entirely unsupported Idea to throw up which I'd have a hard time supporting (Also known as wiki quotes), followed by some more solid evidence (Also known as logical deduction).  And then some lovely nature analogs. .

From the wookiepediea section on the Chosen One: "The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, referred to the ideal state in which the Force existed in nature, namely as the light side. According to Jedi dogma, the presence of the dark side corrupted and destroyed this natural balance."  This very clearly shows that the idea of Balance being light side only is quite clearly a Jedi point of view.

Many Dark Side Nexus of Force energy that occur naturally, such as the Font of Power and Pool of Knowledge.  These were around hundreds of thousands of years before the Sith and Jedi first fought eachother.

Let's take a look at the movies real quick.  The Chosen One, be it whoever, is a Jedi prophesy of one who would bring balance to the force... From the Jedi point of view.  This becomes a very important factor in determining what the true nature of the force is since the idea that Balance equals Light Side is from a JEDI perspective.  For this to be a fact, the Jedi would have to be infallible.  The movies VERY clearly show that the Jedi are anything but infallible, and so the idea that Balance is no Dark Side becomes merely an opinion of a religious organization. 

From the Jedi Perspective, let's abbreviate that to JP from now on as we'll probably be using it a lot, Anakin/Darth Vader did bring the movies(Not counting EU here) To a balance.  Whether this is TRUE balance or Jedi Balance is another issue entirely, the one we're discussing.

Side Arguement:  I would like to propose the idea that since the Force comes from all living things, all living things influence the force.  The Dark side is commonly refered to as having Hate, Anger, Aggression, and Fear be some of it's main aspects.  These feelings are present in all humans at least to an extent, and are likely in hundreds of the alien species that inhabit Star Wars.  The same is true for the Light Side.  Now, let's include nonsentient living things in, like a tree for example.  The tree contributes to the Force, but does not have honesty, compassion, mercy, self-sacrifice, and other positive emotions.  It would benefit neither the Light Side, nor the Dark Side, but merely the Force in general.  As the number of nonsentient living things vastly outweighs the amount of sentient living things, I do believe the Force is primarily unaligned with either light or dark, but encompasses all things.

Now, for anyone that feels like helping me since my google fu failed: Find me the exact quote and location where Lucas says that Balance in the Force is the Light Side without Dark.


It is said Anakin brought balance to the force when he destroyed Palpatine. But wasn't he the one that was largely responsible for unbalancing the force in the first place?


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It is said Anakin brought balance to the force when he destroyed Palpatine. But wasn't he the one that was largely responsible for unbalancing the force in the first place?




If we're looking at it from a Jedi Point of view, he did do a great job of further upsetting the balance of the force by nearly wiping out all Jedi.  But I would not say he was responsible for the initial JP unbalancing.  That was done by Sidious and his couple apprentices to begin with, from the JP.   When he eliminated the Sith Lord and did not become his apprentice, he ended the "Line of Bane" as I'll call it.  Restoring Movie Balance.  Not counting the hundreds of DS-users Palps has under him in EU, and the like.
How can you have something balanced if one side is winning?




Because one "side" isn't a dualistic aspect of that thing, but rather is a perversion of the thing. Thus, excising that perversion bring the thing back into balance. In other words, defeating the dark side balances the Force because the Dark Side is an imbalance in the Force.



It is said Anakin brought balance to the force when he destroyed Palpatine. But wasn't he the one that was largely responsible for unbalancing the force in the first place?






The Force had been unbalanced since the the first Force Users started corrupting the Force to do evil crap, ie tainting the Force with Darkness.

Anakin, if we pretend that the EU doesn't exist, brought the Force back into balance. Even in the EU, it's a while before the Dark Side ever gains real power again.

 It could even be that the Dark Side always exists, but inherently unbalances the Force if it's giving power. Someone like Mace Windu can do his vapaad thing, and flirt with negative emotions, but once you get someone like Palpatine running around actively fueling this force use with evil, the Force becomes tainted/unbalanced/clouded by the Dark Side. That is a small stretch, I think, but not wholly unreasonable. The idea that the Dark Side is somehow meant to be an equal, dualistic half of the Force is what I'm saying is unsupported and contrary to canon.



It is said Anakin brought balance to the force when he destroyed Palpatine. But wasn't he the one that was largely responsible for unbalancing the force in the first place?




If we're looking at it from a Jedi Point of view, he did do a great job of further upsetting the balance of the force by nearly wiping out all Jedi.  But I would not say he was responsible for the initial JP unbalancing.  That was done by Sidious and his couple apprentices to begin with, from the JP.   When he eliminated the Sith Lord and did not become his apprentice, he ended the "Line of Bane" as I'll call it.  Restoring Movie Balance.  Not counting the hundreds of DS-users Palps has under him in EU, and the like.



Yep. Sidius, and even his master, who may have created Anakin, depending on how you interpret some dialogue in EP3.


This discussion makes me think that it may be the case that what we think of as the Dark Side isn't completely unnatural in an absolute sense, but is more like a chemical in a body that isn't a good thing, or necessary to the body's function, but doesn't cause problems normally, and the Sith and others like them poison the Force with this "chemical".

So, destroying the Sith brings balance to the Force because it moves the mixture back to an acceptable, 1-4%, level of  Dark Side in the system. :P

Just a thought.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
"This discussion makes me think that it may be the case that what we think of as the Dark Side isn't completely unnatural in an absolute sense, but is more like a chemical in a body that isn't a good thing, or necessary to the body's function, but doesn't cause problems normally, and the Sith and others like them poison the Force with this "chemical"."

If you agree that the light side is also a harmful chemical imbalance, I'd be prone to agree with you.
"This discussion makes me think that it may be the case that what we think of as the Dark Side isn't completely unnatural in an absolute sense, but is more like a chemical in a body that isn't a good thing, or necessary to the body's function, but doesn't cause problems normally, and the Sith and others like them poison the Force with this "chemical"."

If you agree that the light side is also a harmful chemical imbalance, I'd be prone to agree with you.



I think it's pretty clear that the "light side" is just the Force, in it's natural state.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome


I think it's pretty clear that the "light side" is just the Force, in it's natural state.


I think it's pretty clear that you pretty much completely bypassed my entire statement on the last page.
It is said Anakin brought balance to the force when he destroyed Palpatine. But wasn't he the one that was largely responsible for unbalancing the force in the first place?

If we're looking at it from a Jedi Point of view, he did do a great job of further upsetting the balance of the force by nearly wiping out all Jedi.  But I would not say he was responsible for the initial JP unbalancing.  That was done by Sidious and his couple apprentices to begin with, from the JP.   When he eliminated the Sith Lord and did not become his apprentice, he ended the "Line of Bane" as I'll call it.  Restoring Movie Balance.  Not counting the hundreds of DS-users Palps has under him in EU, and the like.

If it wasn't for Anakin, Mace Windu would have killed Palpatine and ended the Sith rule before it even started. In this way, Anakin is largely responsible for the galaxy falling into darkness.



I think it's pretty clear that the "light side" is just the Force, in it's natural state.

Not really. It's a debatable point of view. I presonally view the Force as a sort of "pendulum effect." A pendulum constantly moves from one side to the other. Similarly, when the light side is dominant for too long, inevitably the dark side will gain ascendancy. When the dark side is dominant for too long, inevitable the light side will gain ascendancy. This cycle repeats itself without end, from the beginning of time and for thousands of years.


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I think it's pretty clear that the "light side" is just the Force, in it's natural state.


I think it's pretty clear that you pretty much completely bypassed my entire statement on the last page.



Nope. Just don't agree with any of your conclusions.

Not really. It's a debatable point of view. I presonally view the Force as a sort of "pendulum effect." A pendulum constantly moves from one side to the other. Similarly, when the light side is dominant for too long, inevitably the dark side will gain ascendancy. When the dark side is dominant for too long, inevitable the light side will gain ascendancy. This cycle repeats itself without end, from the beginning of time and for thousands of years.



What supports your view on this, I wonder? Or is it purely personal gnosis?
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Novel spoilers
The Darth Plagueis book makes it clear that Palpatine and his master were trying to push the dark side and create an even greater imbalance in the Force, when the Force itself reacted to their experiments by creating Anakin. His conception was a backlash against the growing imbalance of the dark side, at least as used and manipulated by the Sith. As DoctorBadWolf suggested, a little bit of darkness may be inherent to the system, but what the Sith do with it is unnatural and throws the system out of balance. Thus destroying the Sith = bringing balance to the Force.
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Not really. It's a debatable point of view. I presonally view the Force as a sort of "pendulum effect." A pendulum constantly moves from one side to the other. Similarly, when the light side is dominant for too long, inevitably the dark side will gain ascendancy. When the dark side is dominant for too long, inevitable the light side will gain ascendancy. This cycle repeats itself without end, from the beginning of time and for thousands of years.



What supports your view on this, I wonder? Or is it purely personal gnosis?

The movies and Star Wars lore supports my view on this. In Episode 1, the light side has been dominant for a long time, Episode 3 the dark side gains ascendancy with Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader. By Episode 4, the dark side has been dominant for a couple decades. By Episode 6, the light side triumphs with the defeat of Palps and Vader. Later on, the light and dark side clash and each gain dominance over the other in the New Rebublic, New Jedi Order, and Legacy Era.
 
In the Old Republic, the light side was dominant for a long time until the Mandalorian Wars broke out crica 3964 BBY. Jedi went to war and came back as Sith Lords, such as Revan and Malak. The dark side gained ascendancy as the Sith ravaged the Republic. The dark side was halted by a redeemed Revan and Bastila. The light side triumphed with the defeat of Darth Malak and the destruction of the Star Forge. The dark side returned with the Dark Wars and the Sith Triumvirate, but then the light side triumphs again with the return of the Jedi Exile and Mical's reformed jedi order. Then, it looks like the Sith return in force 300 years later as seen in The Old Republic MMORPG.

The conflict is always the same, although the players change.


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Nope. Just don't agree with any of your conclusions.


If you don't agree with any of them, point out exactly what you don't agree with, and what your reasoning is then.  I thought this was supposed to be a debate.

I'd also love if you could provide any reasoning behind your ideals other than: This is it and how it is.

Novel spoilers
The Darth Plagueis book makes it clear that Palpatine and his master were trying to push the dark side and create an even greater imbalance in the Force, when the Force itself reacted to their experiments by creating Anakin. His conception was a backlash against the growing imbalance of the dark side, at least as used and manipulated by the Sith. As DoctorBadWolf suggested, a little bit of darkness may be inherent to the system, but what the Sith do with it is unnatural and throws the system out of balance. Thus destroying the Sith = bringing balance to the Force.


Can you provide some more detailed evidence to support this?  I've not read the book, so some quotes from it, and who said each quote would be great.

From what I can gather so far, they pushed the natural balance, not by existing and using the dark side, but with their experiments.  This implies that a Sith that does not push the balance, could likely be a part of the balance.  By destroying the Sith attempting to upset the natural balance of dark and light, I can see.  I could also see it in reverse from the existing statements.
Not really. It's a debatable point of view. I presonally view the Force as a sort of "pendulum effect." A pendulum constantly moves from one side to the other. Similarly, when the light side is dominant for too long, inevitably the dark side will gain ascendancy. When the dark side is dominant for too long, inevitable the light side will gain ascendancy. This cycle repeats itself without end, from the beginning of time and for thousands of years.



What supports your view on this, I wonder? Or is it purely personal gnosis?

The movies and Star Wars lore supports my view on this. In Episode 1, the light side has been dominant for a long time, Episode 3 the dark side gains ascendancy with Emperor Palpatine and Darth Vader. By Episode 4, the dark side has been dominant for a couple decades. By Episode 6, the light side triumphs with the defeat of Palps and Vader.



In the other thread I already stated this, but I suppose I should do so here as well: For this conversation, I'm not sure the EU really matters, except as it might further support an already supported idea. So, I'll just respond to the part about the movies, for now.

What you describe above doesn't support your theory. It is merely the necessary full circle of a story about evil destroying what is good, and the next generation having to fight to win their (in most stories country or the like) galaxy back.

re: the books, let's be honest. The dark side rises, or tries to rise, in the books because authors couldn't bring themselves to leave it alone. That's it.


Nope. Just don't agree with any of your conclusions.


If you don't agree with any of them, point out exactly what you don't agree with, and what your reasoning is then.  I thought this was supposed to be a debate.

I'd also love if you could provide any reasoning behind your ideals other than: This is it and how it is.




I've already done all that. Why are we repeating ourselves? I'm sorry, but that's not a game I'm willing to play.


Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
In the other thread I already stated this, but I suppose I should do so here as well: For this conversation, I'm not sure the EU really matters, except as it might further support an already supported idea. So, I'll just respond to the part about the movies, for now.

What you describe above doesn't support your theory. It is merely the necessary full circle of a story about evil destroying what is good, and the next generation having to fight to win their (in most stories country or the like) galaxy back. 

You can ignore the EU, but I think a greater understanding of what the Force is would necessitate considering the EU, not just focusing on the movies.



re: the books, let's be honest. The dark side rises, or tries to rise, in the books because authors couldn't bring themselves to leave it alone. That's it. 

The battle between light side and dark is one of the core aspects of Star Wars. That's why you see it everywhere, in the movies, books, video games, animated series, RPG's, comics, etc...


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Novel spoilers
The Darth Plagueis book makes it clear that Palpatine and his master were trying to push the dark side and create an even greater imbalance in the Force, when the Force itself reacted to their experiments by creating Anakin. His conception was a backlash against the growing imbalance of the dark side, at least as used and manipulated by the Sith. As DoctorBadWolf suggested, a little bit of darkness may be inherent to the system, but what the Sith do with it is unnatural and throws the system out of balance. Thus destroying the Sith = bringing balance to the Force.


Can you provide some more detailed evidence to support this?  I've not read the book, so some quotes from it, and who said each quote would be great.



Not at the moment, but I would recommend this well referenced article on The Chosen One which pertains to the topic at hand.
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Not at the moment, but I would recommend this well referenced article on The Chosen One which pertains to the topic at hand.

That's an interesting read. I particularly like George Lucas's illustration, namely that the light side is symbiotic but the dark side is cancerous. Also, Palpatine did admit that the dark side was a path to things that are considered unnatural.

Anakin brought a temporary balance to the force by destroying Palpatine. That means that a permanent balance to the Force would mean the destruction of all dark side force-users everywhere. Could that ever be achieved?

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Anakin brought a temporary balance to the force by destroying Palpatine. That means that a permanent balance to the Force would mean the destruction of all dark side force-users everywhere. Could that ever be achieved?



Yes, by the complete and utter annihilation of all Force-Sensitive beings.


Anakin brought a temporary balance to the force by destroying Palpatine. That means that a permanent balance to the Force would mean the destruction of all dark side force-users everywhere. Could that ever be achieved?



Yes, by the complete and utter annihilation of all Force-Sensitive beings.

2 problems with that solution:

1. How do you destroy all force-sensitive beings in the galaxy? (and outside the galaxy too I would imagine)

2. Even if you could acheive this seemingly impossible task, more children would be born who are force-sensitive.

Perhaps the destruction of the Force itself is the only solution. How ironic. Maybe Darth Traya was right all along.


  @fairytalejedi:

I know you've read the Darth Plagueis novel. Tell me, in your opinion, how would the Force react if 2 jedi masters tried to manipulate the Force in a similar way to Palps and Plagueis, only in a light-side fashion?   



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1. Perfectly Simple.  You get a powerful Sith Lord to hunt down and kill them all, and then have Boba Fett kill the Sith Lord.

2.  That would also be a problem.  Perhaps the destruction of all beings capable of being Force-Sensitive?  It would be a massive genocide of many planets.  Anyone think a Death Star or Eclipse might come in handy for that?
This is my take (disagree as desired): The light side and the dark side are two equal parts of the Force as a whole. Neither is unnatural, and your average being should be touched by both of them (like the super-awesome Jensaarai) but a slave to neither. 
Now, here's the funky part: The Sith are not at all a balancing force. They are totally evil and unnatural. The way I see it, and I could be totally wrong, they aren't just corrupting the Force, they are corrupting the Dark Side itself. They don't just take what the dark side is offering and give in to their baser emotions and feelings, they try to harness its power, bending its will and treating it like a fuel to be burned. They use their inner darkness as a tool to advance their kind.
IMHO, balance would be Light Jedi and Dark Jedi who fell devoid of Sith influence.

Also, the Light and Dark sides of the Force closely mimic the Ego and Id, respectively, of Freudian Psychology. Just thought I'd throw that out there. With that in mind, it becomes more easy to accept that following only one is unhealthy. However, following the Ego/Light Side has no real negative repercussions for the outside world, so it is more or less accepted (think goodie-goodies). Following the Id/Dark Side only is not commonly accepted whatsoever, so such people are looked down upon and perhaps feared (maybe for good reason). A lot of serial killers would fall into the Id/Dark Side category. If you had to pick a side to follow absolutely, most people would prefer you pick the Ego/Light Side.

And that's how I look at the Force.

As proof for the "Sith are unnatural and totally evil and therefore not a good representation of the balance of the Force" theory: Core, page 224 "A Jedi who turns to the dark side and becomes a Sith apprentice retains all of his Jedi class features...The only exceptions are Force powers with the [light side] descriptor, which the character can no longer use." This is only mentioned in the section devoted totally to the Sith. It is not even hinted at in any of the sections that simply deal with falling to the dark side as a whole.
RIP Kit Fisto When your using CL 18 Stormtroopers, it might be time to roll up a new campaign. I think I may be the last person on the planet who doesn't think zombies are the coolest things ever... [spoiler]I am Blue/White
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[\spoiler]
I know its a double post but the first one was already long enough...

Based on what I've said, you might be able to guess that I consider people like Quinlin Vos and Anakin Skywalker the most "healthy" and balanced Jedi. Balance is extremely hard, however, and you usually end up going to one side or the other. The best kind of Jedi, IMO, are ones like Luke, who are balanced between supreme balance and the Light Side, if that makes any sense.

In Saga translation, People with Dark Side scores of about 1/4 their wisdom would be the "Luke type" of balancing total neutrality and the Light Side. 
People with Dark Side scores of about 1/2 their wisdom are totally neutral. This would be healthy, but the call of the Dark Side is much easier to heed than the Light Side, so people like this usually end up falling.

Note that the dark side points of the "Luke type" are recieved mainly from using the Dark Rage power (giving in to anger and emotion as a whole) and killing people that are your prisoner but also deserver to die, Like Anakin did to Dooku in RotS, etc. The DSS isn't from obviously super-evil acts like burning orphanages or raping and murdering people.
RIP Kit Fisto When your using CL 18 Stormtroopers, it might be time to roll up a new campaign. I think I may be the last person on the planet who doesn't think zombies are the coolest things ever... [spoiler]I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
[\spoiler]
In the other thread I already stated this, but I suppose I should do so here as well: For this conversation, I'm not sure the EU really matters, except as it might further support an already supported idea. So, I'll just respond to the part about the movies, for now.

What you describe above doesn't support your theory. It is merely the necessary full circle of a story about evil destroying what is good, and the next generation having to fight to win their (in most stories country or the like) galaxy back. 

You can ignore the EU, but I think a greater understanding of what the Force is would necessitate considering the EU, not just focusing on the movies.



re: the books, let's be honest. The dark side rises, or tries to rise, in the books because authors couldn't bring themselves to leave it alone. That's it. 

The battle between light side and dark is one of the core aspects of Star Wars. That's why you see it everywhere, in the movies, books, video games, animated series, RPG's, comics, etc...





Look, I love the EU, but you know damn well that the movies and statements by Lucas have more weight.

Nothing in the movies or any statement by Lucas supports the idea that  the Dark Side is a necessary part of the Balance of The Force, or that there's a pendulum effect sort of balance going on.

The Force is balanced normally, but the Sith unbalanced it. When Palpatine was destroyed, the Force returned to a balanced state.



Anakin brought a temporary balance to the force by destroying Palpatine. That means that a permanent balance to the Force would mean the destruction of all dark side force-users everywhere. Could that ever be achieved?



Yes, by the complete and utter annihilation of all Force-Sensitive beings.



Bull.

First, a few minor dark siders are probably an acceptable amount of poison in the system.

Second, most force users don't fall to the dark side. Even the Jedi who eventually became the Sith didn't fall as soon as they started experimenting with things best left alone. It took a while for them to actually become corrupted Force Users. An active role in helping people understand the force, and avoid the temptation of the Dark Side could very well be effective enough to keep the Force from becoming unbalanced again.


Another potential source of imbalance in the Force is the conflict of the Force against the Force. Not only were the Sith actively perverting the Force to do really unnatural stuff, but they were also pitting the Force against itself in thier war against the Jedi.

Clearly, some Force Users of exceptionally strong will, like Mace Windu, can use negative emotions without experiencing any Dark Side taint. That doesn't mean that the Dark Side isn't corrupt, it just means that enough discipline and strength of will can allow exceptional people to do things that normally cause interaction with the taint of the Dark Side, without actually interacting with that taint.

Just like Luke can sometimes momentarily give in to his darker emotions without falling, because it's not an immediate binary thing. He's able to pull himself back, and avoid corruption.


But, very clearly, the Dark Side is a corruption, and thus a corrupting influence. It is a cancer lurking within the healthy and beneficial Living Force.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
I figure if either of the views is more likely to be correct, it's the view of the Jedi.


The Jedi aren't Paladins. They're basically monks dedicated to making sure the galaxy doesn't die in a fire for no good reason. The Sith, and other dark siders, are pretty much always unnatural, almost abominations. Use of the Dark Side physically and spiritually corrupts. That doesn't speak of something which exists in a state of balance, it speaks of a perversion of nature, or in this case, The Force.

There isn't a "Light Side".

There's The Force, and it's corruption, which is called the Dark Side of The Force.



But the Light Side is mentioned in the movies. If there is a Light Side, there must also be a Dark Side, by logical reasoning.



That doesn't actually logically follow.





I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.

"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
Just to weigh in...



First, a few minor dark siders are probably an acceptable amount of poison in the system.

Second, most force users don't fall to the dark side. Even the Jedi who eventually became the Sith didn't fall as soon as they started experimenting with things best left alone. It took a while for them to actually become corrupted Force Users. An active role in helping people understand the force, and avoid the temptation of the Dark Side could very well be effective enough to keep the Force from becoming unbalanced again.


Another potential source of imbalance in the Force is the conflict of the Force against the Force. Not only were the Sith actively perverting the Force to do really unnatural stuff, but they were also pitting the Force against itself in thier war against the Jedi.

Clearly, some Force Users of exceptionally strong will, like Mace Windu, can use negative emotions without experiencing any Dark Side taint. That doesn't mean that the Dark Side isn't corrupt, it just means that enough discipline and strength of will can allow exceptional people to do things that normally cause interaction with the taint of the Dark Side, without actually interacting with that taint.

Just like Luke can sometimes momentarily give in to his darker emotions without falling, because it's not an immediate binary thing. He's able to pull himself back, and avoid corruption.


But, very clearly, the Dark Side is a corruption, and thus a corrupting influence. It is a cancer lurking within the healthy and beneficial Living Force.



I agree with this 100%.

If you watch one of the commentaries about the Mortis series, Dave Filoni even says that what they are showing through the Father, Son and Daughter is a VERSION of the Force and it is meant to be ambiguous as to if it is the true version or not.  And I think that is what is so wonderful about the Star Wars universe is that there can be all these conflicting theories and they all follow a similar path.

Actually, I think the Jedi Order as depicted in the PT, is wrong about the Force and it is only Qui Gon who was correct.  I also think that maybe Dooku was right, that Qui Gon would have helped him in destroying the Sith.  Imagine, if Qui Gon survived and raised Anakin... it is still Anakin's destiny to bring balance to the Force which, if Dooku had a direct line to Sidious and was sincere in his concern... well Sidious may have died much sooner.  It is the Jedi's own failings: arrogance that they know so much about the Force and that the Sith are/were extinct that allows their judgement to be misled and ultimately what allows Sidious to corrupt The Chosen One AND bring about their own destruction.

Currently reading Darth Plagueis so my thoughts might change... Laughing 
Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken, about a great many things. Winner of the Winner of You Build the Character #34: Padme Amidala
For 800 years, the Jedi's devotion to the light side kept the dark side so weak that the Jedi could not sense it. Then the Sith managed to create a "wound" in the Force (per Darth Plagueis) and over the next two centuries, they were able to expand this until the dark side became ascendant.

I don't think you could create a "wound" in the Force with the light side. What the Jedi did by suppressing the dark side was not harmful; I would argue that the reason Force sensitive individuals are brought into being, in the grand scheme of things, is to do precisely that. The Force uses midi-chlorians to impart Force sensitivity to sentient beings so that they can keep the dark side in check, and bring the Force into a higher, more evolved state of balance.
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Hmm... This is a good debate. Especially because, technically, there isn't a right answer, so we are all just here to exchange opinions and perhaps persuade other people. I like it.
RIP Kit Fisto When your using CL 18 Stormtroopers, it might be time to roll up a new campaign. I think I may be the last person on the planet who doesn't think zombies are the coolest things ever... [spoiler]I am Blue/White
I am Blue/White
Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!
Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.
I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
[\spoiler]
What if the only way to bring balance to the force is to merge the lightside and the darkside together and the light and dark sides are separated only by a fracture in the force that can be mended by someone who tried to master both sides of the force? Revan who mastered both sides of the force and was considered one of the most powerful force users of all time and he managed to use both sides of the force simultaniously to accomplish almost impossible tasks.
I don't think you could create a "wound" in the Force with the light side. What the Jedi did by suppressing the dark side was not harmful; I would argue that the reason Force sensitive individuals are brought into being, in the grand scheme of things, is to do precisely that. The Force uses midi-chlorians to impart Force sensitivity to sentient beings so that they can keep the dark side in check, and bring the Force into a higher, more evolved state of balance.


I do believe he was talking about: Say the dark side is threatening to surge back, and some Light Side Force Wizard decides they want to artificially enhance the Light Side.  Would this create an off-balance?
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.


To broadly respond to some of the thoughts that have popped up, remember that the "Light Side" isn't rainbows and happy thoughts, it's a peaceful detachment from strong emotion. You could probably get some super happy force hippies that are all about singing happy songs and loving everything, and if they gained enough influence over the Living Force, they might cloud the force and make it harder to maintain balance, as the Jedi experienced when the Dark Side was clouding everything, making it harder to see into the future and like, even for powerful Jedi like Yoda.

The Force as the Jedi and other "good" traditions use it isn't shining light blue paladin Lawful Good. It's balanced. Not by conflict between polar extremes, but through tranquil lack of internal conflict.


Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.







Still, though, what would it be contrasted to?

@ftj
I'd argue that's the issue is not the dark side becoming ascendant but the way the Sith do it (wound in the Force).  Still, all of this is irrelevant becuase the Plagueis novel is EU.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.







Still, though, what would it be contrasted to?

@ftj
I'd argue that's the issue is not the dark side becoming ascendant but the way the Sith do it (wound in the Force).  Still, all of this is irrelevant becuase the Plagueis novel is EU.




There is no need for a contrast as part of the natural order. Fire is not required for water to exist. They just happen to both exist.

The Dark Side conflict is necessary to the plot of the star wars movies, but you could erase every dark side force user from the thrawn trilogy, and it would be just as good, and make just as much, if not more, sense.
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.







Still, though, what would it be contrasted to?

@ftj
I'd argue that's the issue is not the dark side becoming ascendant but the way the Sith do it (wound in the Force).  Still, all of this is irrelevant becuase the Plagueis novel is EU.




There is no need for a contrast as part of the natural order. Fire is not required for water to exist. They just happen to both exist.

The Dark Side conflict is necessary to the plot of the star wars movies, but you could erase every dark side force user from the thrawn trilogy, and it would be just as good, and make just as much, if not more, sense.


I'm not saying that the Dark Side has to be exist for anything else to, but rather that for Lucas to call it the Light Side, there must be something else to contrast it with. We are, after all, arguing over his intentions.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.







Still, though, what would it be contrasted to?

@ftj
I'd argue that's the issue is not the dark side becoming ascendant but the way the Sith do it (wound in the Force).  Still, all of this is irrelevant becuase the Plagueis novel is EU.




There is no need for a contrast as part of the natural order. Fire is not required for water to exist. They just happen to both exist.

The Dark Side conflict is necessary to the plot of the star wars movies, but you could erase every dark side force user from the thrawn trilogy, and it would be just as good, and make just as much, if not more, sense.


I'm not saying that the Dark Side has to be exist for anything else to, but rather that for Lucas to call it the Light Side, there must be something else to contrast it with. We are, after all, arguing over his intentions.



I see.

Perhaps another way to look at it, though: Lucas called the corruption of the Force "The Dark Side", and then when talking about the normal use of the force, "The Normal Force" sounded stupid, so he came up with a better term. :P
Skeptical_Clown wrote:
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
104340961 wrote:
Pine trees didn't unanimously decide one day that leaves were gauche.
http://community.wizards.com/doctorbadwolf/blog/2012/01/10/how_we_can_help_make_dndnext_awesome
Did he?  DID Lucas ever use the term "Light Side" or is that a term that EU authors came up with?

Off the top of my head, I honestly don't recall any uses of the term "Light Side of the Force" in G-canon...
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..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I suppose I hould have explained myself more, heh. Just like normal light, there has to be something to contrast a Light Side with.




Change Light to Good Side and nothing changes. The existence of good is not predicated on the existence of evil, outside certain specific philosophies.







Still, though, what would it be contrasted to?

@ftj
I'd argue that's the issue is not the dark side becoming ascendant but the way the Sith do it (wound in the Force).  Still, all of this is irrelevant becuase the Plagueis novel is EU.




There is no need for a contrast as part of the natural order. Fire is not required for water to exist. They just happen to both exist.

The Dark Side conflict is necessary to the plot of the star wars movies, but you could erase every dark side force user from the thrawn trilogy, and it would be just as good, and make just as much, if not more, sense.


I'm not saying that the Dark Side has to be exist for anything else to, but rather that for Lucas to call it the Light Side, there must be something else to contrast it with. We are, after all, arguing over his intentions.



I see.

Perhaps another way to look at it, though: Lucas called the corruption of the Force "The Dark Side", and then when talking about the normal use of the force, "The Normal Force" sounded stupid, so he came up with a better term. :P


Haha, I can accept this.
"The real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development." -Albert Einstein Resident Left Hand of Stalin and Banana Stand Grandstander Half of the Ambiguously Gay Duo House of Trolls, looking for a partner Wondering what happened to the Star Wars forums?
Show
Star Wars Minis has a home here http://www.bloomilk.com/ and Star Wars Saga Edition RPG has a home here http://thesagacontinues.createaforum.com/index.php
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141722973 wrote:
And it wasn't ****. It was subjectively concensual sex.
57036828 wrote:
Marketing and design are two different things. For instance the snuggy was designed for people in wheel chairs and marketed to people that are too incompetent to operate a blanket.
75239035 wrote:
I personally don't want him decapitated.
141722973 wrote:
And do not call me a Yank. I am a Québecois, basically your better.
And the greatest post moderation of all time...
58115148 wrote:
I gave that (Content Removed) a to-scale Lego replica. (Content Removed) love to-scale Lego replicas. (ORC_Cerberus: Edited - Vulgarity is against the Code of Conduct)