Planeswalkers and diversity

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Sooooo...

Liliana is Middle Eastern apparently.   

That being said, this is a thread about the ethnic diversity in our roster of Planeswalkers.

Do you think it's diverse enough?
Do you think that it could stand to be more diverse?
What fantasy counterpart cultures would you like to see represented?

I'm not sure what to do with this thread, but I think it will make for an interesting discussion.
Mmph.

Three out of ten is... not as much a cause for celebration as MaRo seems to think it is. And that's ignoring the fact that Sarkhan is nuts, and Liliana commands the dead to murder the living. Her name is an anagram of villainess for goodness sake. If you look at the characters on a sliding scale from most to least heroic, the white folks definitely have a dramatic advantage. And again, revealing your character who's name is an anagram of villainess as Middle Eastern... just... That could have been more carefully considered, I think.

I think Magic has done a better job throughout its history of having a wider variety of racial representation than the VAST, STAGGERING MAJORITY of fantasy properties (although I'm totally ready to be contradicted here--privilege blinds and all that), but I think MaRo's answer here was a little dismissive.

Still, Liliana IS one of their major marketing ventures and the fact that they keep pushing her suggests that she's pretty popular, which is a good sign. And Koth actually got a much more positive representation on the cards than in the comics (where he kind of came off as a pushy jerk). So... I think they're trying, at least. I can see why people, especially people of color, would be feeling a little left out at this point.

EDIT: People on Tumblr are pointing out that Liliana now wears a veil. ...Oof. Yeah. That could have been more carefully thought out, MaRo. ...Anyone feel like maybe he should stop answering flavor questions? >_>
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
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I think I'd have to agree with a lot of the people who commented on that post. If Sarkhan and Liliana are supposed to be distinctive, non-white ethnicities, their art really needs to do a better job of showing it. (The art for Sarkhan the Mad actually does show it pretty well on full sized versions, but at card sized he's just a generic light-skinned guy.)

Ultimately it's just a matter of being High Fantasy. Magic (and mainstream Fantasy in general) is largely based around European folk lore/mythology so naturally when most artists sit down to illustrate a card, the image in their head is of a caucasian person.

I'm of the opinion that diversity for diversity's sake is a fairly silly practice. Do Planeswalkers have to mirror a PBS kid show? Where is Karn's wheelchair? I mean, if it makes sense for a character to be of a certain race, or the art department would like a character to look a certain way, I take no issue with this - but political correctness need not be such a vehement practice.

When I design characters I rarely take the colour of their respective skins into account, because so rarely is it even a factor. Since the 'Walkers are becoming more public representations of Magic as a whole, then I assume they are meant to target the people playing. I don't really have statistics but I assume most Magic is played in America, with Canada and Europe being next. I know that there are of course players all around the world.

However, this doesn't mean that the target demographic still isn't young white men, right? I do not mean to offend, but am I not correct? Look at the top players. Not all of them are that young - but most of them are white dudes. I'm basing this pretty much off of the one time I looked up all the like World Champions or something.

That said, I find White 'Walkers to be a tad boring. I could certainly go for some more culturally interesting 'Walkers. The colour of the skin doesn't matter, but I could go for a 'Walker that enjoys, like, good food - and by good food I mean meat, and greens, and fishes and stuff. And for some reason I put that 'Walker into the male category. As far as ladies, I've yet to become a fanboy of any of the popular female 'Walkers. I could certainly go for a spicier female 'Walker. But, really, I don't think we need any more humans. Boring times. This is a fantasy game. They have like a million races to choose from.

That's all. Political Correctness and all - I mean, I hope none of my comments offended anyone. They were not intended to.

139359831 wrote:
That is a lovely painting of Richard Garfield. It really brings out his feminine side.
Liliana is Middle Eastern like I'm an ent. There is no such thing as the Middle East wherever she's from. Simailarly Jace is pale and has white features as we'd identify them but he's not Caucasian. The most accurate you can get with them is "pale human from Plane X," which genetically may or may not have very much in common with the pale people from Plane Y.
Astetically, though, yeah it'd be cool to have some people you could find in a snowdrift.

Astetically, though, yeah it'd be cool to have some people you could find in a snowdrift.



And you just won the thread.
Thanks for playing everybody!

I want more ethnic walkers (for full transparencies' sake; I am very very very very white) but for similar reasons why I want more women and non-human walkers; it looks cool.

Walkers are supposed to look varied and odd and out of place and entirely unique from one another, and 'skin color' is one of the many knobs they can turn to enable that. One I feel they aren't fiddling with enough.

FIDDLE HARDER CREATIVE.
FIDDLE LIKE A JEWISH PERSON ON A ROOF. 
I think I'd have to agree with a lot of the people who commented on that post. If Sarkhan and Liliana are supposed to be distinctive, non-white ethnicities, their art really needs to do a better job of showing it. (The art for Sarkhan the Mad actually does show it pretty well on full sized versions, but at card sized he's just a generic light-skinned guy.)

Ultimately it's just a matter of being High Fantasy. Magic (and mainstream Fantasy in general) is largely based around European folk lore/mythology so naturally when most artists sit down to illustrate a card, the image in their head is of a caucasian person.



Well not all people of middle eastern are brown. My frined and his family are all from the middle east and I'm slighty darker then all of them. Looking at Liliana I can see it.

And also isn't Ajanis Mayan and Tamiyo is Japanese?
...Anyone feel like maybe he should stop answering flavor questions? >_>



YES.

Aside from that, I just have to agree with the many people going "She is? That's funny, because she sure as hell doesn't look it!"

And here's another fun thing, she appears to have been raised in a plane based off the most generically EASTERN EUROPEAN society you could find. Thanks Raven's Eye!

Additionally, ya gotta love that Mark just lumps Sarkhan in as "Asian"... which is sort of offensive honestly.
For what its worth, ive been operating under the assumption that Liliana's pallor is the result of the demonic Magics keeping her alive.
I think I'd have to agree with a lot of the people who commented on that post. If Sarkhan and Liliana are supposed to be distinctive, non-white ethnicities, their art really needs to do a better job of showing it. (The art for Sarkhan the Mad actually does show it pretty well on full sized versions, but at card sized he's just a generic light-skinned guy.)

Ultimately it's just a matter of being High Fantasy. Magic (and mainstream Fantasy in general) is largely based around European folk lore/mythology so naturally when most artists sit down to illustrate a card, the image in their head is of a caucasian person.



Well not all people of middle eastern are brown. My frined and his family are all from the middle east and I'm slighty darker then all of them. Looking at Liliana I can see it.

And also isn't Ajanis Mayan and Tamiyo is Japanese?



No, no, I get that. Skin color isn't the only missing feature, there are often also different structural characteristics that could have been utilized in their art to add distinction.

Other than "generic white" the only race Liliana ever looked to me was "vaguely latina" in that one image with all the planeswalkers.

Ajani and Tamiyo aren't really being counted for the purpose of this discussion, because they're not human. It does seem a bit odd though to say that Planeswalkers of completely different species don't count for diversity, but the discussion is more specifically targeted at "human planeswalker diversity" than general diversity. "Humans are portrayed as being _____."

...Anyone feel like maybe he should stop answering flavor questions? >_>



YES.

Aside from that, I just have to agree with the many people going "She is? That's funny, because she sure as hell doesn't look it!"

And here's another fun thing, she appears to have been raised in a plane based off the most generically EASTERN EUROPEAN society you could find. Thanks Raven's Eye!

Additionally, ya gotta love that Mark just lumps Sarkhan in as "Asian"... which is sort of offensive honestly.


Liliana being "Middle Eastern" is a TOTAL surprise to me as well, that last massive group shot sort of made her look "Hispanic".

You know what? Why are we having our undies twisted on this? For all you know we cannot figure out Liliana's supposed ethnicity because when she powers up she gets that pale-er skin + the rune tattoos! /handwave


But for the most part, I feel that post-Mending had a more varied roster of Planeswalkers than now. Or maybe it's still to early to jump to conclusions?


Here be my inclusive wishlist to the air~

- a FEMALE, of African/Black ethnicity planeswalker
- an OLD-aged looking planeswalker
- a FAT planeswalker
- Less Humans

...Anyone feel like maybe he should stop answering flavor questions? >_>



YES.


Bahaha. I knew, if NO ONE ELSE agreed with ANYTHING ELSE I said, I could count on you to agree with this. :P

@Thoctar:

I feel like I shouldn't have laughed at your fiddler on the roof joke under the circumstances. Really, really feel like I shouldn't still be laughing at that joke. 





And yeah, I'm kind of uncomfortable with the idea of saying that Ajani or Tamiyo would count as being non-white races. Like... that just gets into all kinds of really unpleasant "bestial races" connotations that I think we would all rather avoid. And I mean, I feel like adding diversity by adding in more fish people kind of misses the point anyway. 

Incidentally, I do think it's odd in particular that we have such narrow representation when Magic seriously has some of the most diverse settings I've seen in ANY fantasy property. Like, Jamuura is kind of a big deal, Rabiah is kind of a big deal, Kamigawa... is finally clawing its way out of the pit of shame it occupied with Ulgrotha for a while...
Coming Soon to the Magic: Expanded Multiverse: FRAGMENTS: A Shards of Alara Anthology
(Click through to view the cover and announcement page)Want to get your work in the Expanded Multiverse? Come join the project! Oh, and check out my blog, Storming the Ivory Tower: making sense of academia, media, and culture twice weekly.

Here be my inclusive wishlist to the air~

- a FEMALE, of African/Black ethnicity planeswalker
- an OLD-aged looking planeswalker
- a FAT planeswalker
- Less Humans



These two so much, Wizards. I've always wanted these.

Here be my inclusive wishlist to the air~

- a FEMALE, of African/Black ethnicity planeswalker
- an OLD-aged looking planeswalker
- a FAT planeswalker
- Less Humans



These two so much, Wizards. I've always wanted these.


For the most part Post-Mending Continuity had a lof of walkers donning Old-Aged looking forms (Commodore Gruff and Urza comes into mind), but please correct me if I am wrong, I have never really encountered, saw, or read of a Planeswalker who is fat. I mean, not even slightly chubby. :/

For the most part Post-Mending Continuity had a lof of walkers donning Old-Aged looking forms (Commodore Gruff and Urza comes into mind), but please correct me if I am wrong, I have never really encountered, saw, or read of a Planeswalker who is fat. I mean, not even slightly chubby. :/




I dunno, Manatarqua was the size of a pavillion.
I always thought Sarkhan was distinctly mongolian-inspired
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Here be my inclusive wishlist to the air~

- a FEMALE, of African/Black ethnicity planeswalker
- an OLD-aged looking planeswalker
- a FAT planeswalker
- Less Humans

Teferi getting re-sparked is on my wishlist.  I want my Samuel L. Jackson of Magic back.  Though I woudn't mind seeing a Sisay-style 'Walker sometime after that.

@mikemearls The office is basically empty this week, which opens up all sorts of possibilities for low shenanigans

@mikemearls In essence, all those arguments I lost are being unlost. Won, if you will. We're doing it MY way, baby.

@biotech66 aren't you the boss anyway? isn't "DO IT OR I FIRE YOU!" still an option?

@mikemearls I think Perkins would throat punch me if I ever tried that. And I'd give him a glowing quarterly review for it.

Teferi getting re-sparked is on my wishlist.  I want my Samuel L. Jackson of Magic back.


Seriously?  Why is Teferi the Samuel L. Jackson of Magic?  Is he also the Michael Jordan of Magic? Or perhaps the Usain Bolt of Magic?  Or was Samuel L. Jackson's name the first that popped out of your Random-Black-Guy Name Generator?

And in a thread about diversity, no less...

Anyway, Magic in general has a problem with diversity.  Check out Mirrodin/New Phyrexia.  The Auriok seem to spend all of their time in oppressive sunlight wearing very little clothing.  Thus, dark skin would be a favorable trait in terms of evolutionary selection.  But no, they're Irish white.

And what else?  When someone at WotC decided that angels should be the female counterpart to male demons, what they really did is ensure that both are boring.  Also, I'd love it if the art for Precinct Captain and its respective token were switched.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners


Anyway, Magic in general has a problem with diversity.  Check out Mirrodin/New Phyrexia.  The Auriok seem to spend all of their time in oppressive sunlight wearing very little clothing.  Thus, dark skin would be a favorable trait in terms of evolutionary selection.  But no, they're Irish white.




Considering there's been people for only a couple of generations, it would be strange that there was so much evolution already, no? 

Rules Advisor

Quotes
76783093 wrote:
56957928 wrote:
58331438 wrote:
56945988 wrote:
Rancor dies to in-response removal.
Yeah... Until next game, where it'll be right back. Seriously, there's no way to deal with Rancor in any format. It should be banned, except Gleemax is a lobbyist for the Rancor party, so that'll never happen.
You can't ban rancor, it just returns to your deck.
58331438 wrote:
57461258 wrote:
You might want to actually talk to the Flavor & Storyline Board people... since, you know, our whole reason for playing Magic is the flavor. I'm willing to bet you'll get a lot more interest there than in General.
Indeed, both posters down there would be thrilled.
57817638 wrote:
I think I wasn't direct enough in my last post. I'll try to fix it now. Ahem... NO ONE CARES there you have it.
57471038 wrote:
When talks about banning Jace first started, I was thinking that I would see him banned come June 20th. But as I think more about it, I don't really think that Jace is the problem anymore. Sure his power level leaves very little to the imagination (opening Jace is like opening a refrigerator box with a naked girl on the inside), and sure his price does have a strong impact on what players choose to play (playing Jace is like being intimate with a woman and she doesn't charge you in the morning), but it is not the source of all the problems in Standard.
76973988 wrote:
How do people think saving room to print more abilities on cards is dumbing down the game?

Do you really think, say, Akroma would ever be printed if she said, "Akroma can block by creatures with this ability and cannot be blocked by creatures without this ability.  If a creature without this ability would deal combat damage by Akroma would be destroyed, prevent all combat damage that creature would deal to Akroma this combat.  Attacking does not cause Akroma to tap.  If Akroma is blocked and deals lethal damage, it deals the remainder of its damage to the defending player.  Akroma may attack and use abilities that require tapping in the casting cost the turn it enters the battlefield.  Akroma cannot be damaged, enchanted, equipped, blocked or targeted by black or red sources" rather than her "dumbed down" wording she has?  No freaking way.  Keywording and shorthand allows them to make complicated cards easy to play with, allowing them to be printed in the first place.
57817638 wrote:
The creation of praetors was worth it just because now amoeboid changeling is a praetor.
57140668 wrote:
1. cast frankie peanuts2. ask opponent "will you concede the game this turn"? if they say yes, you win; if they say no, play a staying power
3. subsequently ask "will you attack this turn"? and "will you cast a spell this turn"? (using a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir for the second question if necessary) to ensure they can't disrupt the combo
4. donate them a platinum angel
5. play a mox lotus and braingeyser them for every card in their library. play an opalescence and donate them a glorious anthem and a blacker lotus, then play enchanted evening. play and activate a mindslaver and then donate them a fastbond and the mox lotus (returning one of the donates to your hand with eternal witness or whatever)
6. during their turn, play every permanent in their hand (playing lands with fastbond) then (as yourself) cast mirrorweave on the blacker lotus, so every permanent becomes a copy of it. proceed to tear up every card they control, and hopefully do it before they notice that they aren't bound by staying power's ability anymore and can concede
82423538 wrote:
57471038 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
One part of the statement being true=/=the whole statement true.
Whatever. I'm still here about ten minutes away. Whenever you want to get destroyed in Magic, I'm available.
I would like to get destroyed in Magic, actually. Do you know anybody good enough?
57617478 wrote:
Please format your statements in a way that doesn't look like a baboon hit its face on your keyboard.
57140668 wrote:
why did Garruk Relentless lose a loyalty counter
Show
to get to the other side
89522235 wrote:
You're such an obvious troll that you have hexproof and : Regenerate.
56957928 wrote:
56776038 wrote:
Dark Ritual being overpowered is determined more by what is done with it than the card itself.
True, but the fact that it enables so many ridiculous things is pretty telling. It's like, sure I can use a shotgun as a bludgeoning instrument, but that doesn't make it not a shotgun.
79035425 wrote:
Shortly before Serra died, she transferred her spark into an angel whose full name was Asha Avacyn Bolas. Her dragon father groomed her for her positions in Alara and Innistrad, and she's also been getting help from her uncle Ugin in the form of Urza, who was resurrected as Marit Lage to be the avatar as which she projects herself into material realms. Grieslbrand is a split personality who sometimes wanders the planes disguised as a human woman named Liliana Vess.
97610188 wrote:
Yeah that (Content Removed) really annoys me. Moderated by MY_self right about naahowwww!
93446159 wrote:
Dilleux_Lepaire just won the thread.
57461258 wrote:
And, as usual, Dilleux wins the entire thread. Nice work, sir, nice work.
99113151 wrote:
They need to make 9 layers of zones where cards go when they "die". Much like Hell.
56778328 wrote:
Wow, holy doggy poop, kids, obvious statement is obvious.
56776038 wrote:
122053101 wrote:
i don't think your geting it WotC is trying to kill the comption to make it so that there shity app is the only one left.
I haven't tried the app. How is its use of English grammar? Cheers!
57471038 wrote:
Everyone's life would be easier if players would, instead of coming to the 'net for help with a deck, just netdeck and be done with it. And I'm not talking about some Top 8 lists, for the Casualists, too, can benefit from netdecking. I've netdecked plenty of decks from the Casual Play forums from users such as Mown, Raedien, Floopfoot, and a few others. I snatched straight the heck out of my web browser. Yes, people, your original idea fell victim to a savage netdecker. You have been assimiliated. Suppose I wanted a Zombie deck. Why on earth would I spend time searching Gatherer for a decent list of Zombie cards when Raedien already did it for me? Taking time to be creative or waiting on people on the forums to tell you why your deck sucks or 'go to Casual forums' is a disasterous waste of time (to me).
56957928 wrote:
82423538 wrote:
If WotC started putting $100 bills in packs, the players would complain that they folded them wrong.
No, they just spam them with ban requests. That being said, Magic was ruined back in Alpha when they added all that rules and cards [Debutantes avert your eyes]. My friends and I still like playing it the "pure" way (Basically we go into the woods and hit eachother with wiffle bats while shouting made up obscenities. You know, the way Garfield wanted it to be played).
56957928 wrote:
Don't worry about it. I've come up with a list of changes to fix EDH. -First off, there's no commander. -The minimum deck size is 60 cards, and each deck can have up to four of each card, save basic lands and relentless rats. Also decks have no color identity. -Starting life total is 20. And voila, now things are balanced.
89522235 wrote:
Here's a clever play you can try yourself: -Convince friend to run relentless rats.dec in legacy tournament -Get a deck with lots of mill, yixlid jailer, and humility -Drop humility and jailer, wait for him to dump his hand, mill him out -All his rats now have no abilities. Call a judge because he's playing an illegal deck with more than 4 of a single card. -Get him/her banned from competitive magic play
142055101 wrote:
But how to mark them without making the individual sleeve different! You could buy a skunk and slam it's butt on you deck (pardon the french) Then after the game just sniff at your opponent's pile of cards and you will know if any of your cards are there!!!
141434757 wrote:
In Soviet Russia, Sorin opens You
71235715 wrote:
L, is for the leather gloves you weaaaar. O, is for the organs that guy could spaaaare. V, is very very, extraordinay. E, is for every vagrant i butchered in a wine cellar befooooore.
57052258 wrote:
The outer layer of the Magic: the Gathering box, the carton, or crust, is fairly thin and light, and contains largely aluminosilcates. Within that lies the middle layer, consisting of the familiar booster pack. Although solid, the booster packs' high temperatures allow them to acutally move around within the booster box. This flow, sometimes called convection, is cited by frustrated box mappers as one of WOTC's most genious uses of thermodynamics since the Ravnica block. No one knows what lies at the core of the booster box, but scientists theorize that it must be especially dense in order to make up for the large amount of fluff distributed amongst the booster packs.
58232598 wrote:
88993869 wrote:
Torpor Orb is absolutely godawful against Vexing Devil.
whoever is playing vexing devil is probably losing anyways
56957928 wrote:
I imagine [Ajani 3's] second ability involves him hurling the creature at your opponent Brion Stoutarm style, then the guy is just like "Okay, that may have worked, but don't- GOD DAMN IT!" as he does it again because cats don't give a **** :33.
56957928 wrote:
"Do or do not, there is no try." - Albus Dumbledore, The Lord of the Rings.
89522235 wrote:
68978039 wrote:
Its like that one time Elves broke out in a field of Jund. Elves became a resurgent hit, then died off again once Jund adapted to the rest of the field of G/W that it required mass removal that inherently pooped on Elves too. Submit to the menace. Delver can, and will blot out the sun.
Then we shall play in the shade.
89522235 wrote:
I'm sorry, this forum isn't for getting bad advice on mediocre decks, that's standard deck help. This forum is for starting ****storms.
97820278 wrote:
139359831 wrote:
Your advice would only lead me to make generic, boring, and unworthy content. It's of no use to me.
I just got this image of you as an architect, having finished a building suspended by only a small pole in its southwest corner, saying it's original. Then the building collapses.
56957928 wrote:
I for one love the flavor of legendary lands. "I remember my days as a youth at Tolarian Academy." "Wow, small multiverse, I actually went there too." "WAIT, DON'T- Well ****, there's $200,000 in student loans well spent."
56957928 wrote:
And flavor goes out the window when you cast a second copy of a planeswalker right after the first one dies, so... "Hey Nissa, I need a favor." "You just asked me for a 'favor' like thirty seconds ago, and it turned out to be having Sarkhan Transmogrify my only follower into a dragon like 5 times -which dickery aside also violates some laws of causality - and then you let me get beaten over the head by that hedron crab." "...I'll give you " "...Well all right then."
57150868 wrote:
GM, I don't think Dill is better than you. I KNOW it. Even if he wakes up every morning, clubs a baby seal, steals all the TV remotes from within a block's radius of his house and then robs hungry orphans of their food he'd be better than you, for the simple reason that he learns from his mistakes.
143211137 wrote:
57033358 wrote:
Tamiyo vs. Gideon
What would they have to fight about? Like, all I can think of now is Gideon going "Hey, long-ears! I'm gathering a group of 'Walkers together to fight some tentacle monsters.....you want in?" and Tamiyo going "Ew! Hentai no bakka Gideon-desu desu!" and flying away.
76783093 wrote:
I open 4 packs just to be on the safe side. Not only do I get more cards than everyone else, but I also get to spend the rest of the night off. Win Win.
191752181 wrote:
MaRo has a thing for people opening boosters with bad cards. But since he can only get so many bad cards printed in each set, he has found a devious way of getting more bad cards into circulation: He makes entire print sheets with just bad rares, then puts them onto the assembly line. He proceeds to wring his hands and twirl his evil mustache that he grew for twirling purposes as a lightning bolt strikes in the background. Afterwards, he goes to make sure that the good cards are only opened by everyone's friends, and that we all only get to open bad cards. He does this by memorising each booster, than switching them around accordingly. Whenever someone complains about a card, he immediately jumps out from behind a chair to yell "WELL, IT'S NOT FOR YOU!" before merging back into the shadows in order to devise new ways in which he can screw over players, then claim that he has valid reasons for doing so.
97820278 wrote:
192729031 wrote:
You open a booster pack, and staring back at you from the rare slot is a Lotleth Troll? At least I can stick him in my EDH deck and still have four for my standard constructed.
Because lol troll
56874518 wrote:
It helped that I more or less skipped most of GM_Champion's longer diatribes. I only have so many brain cells I'm willing to sacrifice each day.
192931349 wrote:
Mark Rosewater is sitting in a seemingly innocuous cable TV van, outside of Bankaimastery's house. Sitting nearby are two hardened criminal hackers, fresh out of prison, and filled with resentment at their lack of physical fitness. "Have you managed to hack his brainwaves yet? The set deadline's coming up fast." "We're almost through. It should be coming up on the screen any second." The hacker presses a button, and Kevin's thoughts flash onto the screen. Mark and the hackers stare in amazement at the sheer beauty, the elegance, and the raw truth of what they see. It's like the ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey. Brilliant light shines across the screen, the truth of existence is made clear to them, and they despair at their own foolishness, their own ignorance, their own inadequacy. And then they steal his ideas. As they return back to R&D, Mark sneers at a haggard old man chained to a cast-iron sphere. The man looks up from his laborious task of breaking rocks in the dungeon of Wizards of the Coast headquarters, and asks a question: "Kevin, my greatest student. He - he's all right, isn't he? You didn't hurt him?" Mark deals him a weighty blow with his boot. "Know your place, Richard. Get back to work."
57023768 wrote:
Now show me on the Garruk doll where Zac Hill ruined your enjoyment of Magic...
63711769 wrote:
I'm only opposed to it because it bears so little relation to how people actually play the game. The example of Miracles is actually a much better one then the Clone example I was trying to use. From the game's perspective, the card can move instantly from face down in the library to revealed in the hand and that's fine for the rules. But in real life, we can't actually do that, so the card spends a good bit of time in locations that are neither where that player's library is nor where that player's hand is. And that's fine for real life. What I don't want is the disconnect to be explicitly codified. Along the lines of
183664.697 A game of Magic as laid out by these rules exists only as a pure Platonic ideal, utterly unrealizable by fallible mortals limited by the confines of physicality and the ravages of evil and sin. 183664.698 The cake is a lie, too.
I know it's true, but I don't want the rules to actually straight-up tell me that.
147137503 wrote:
77120821 wrote:
Pfft this cant be serious can it? If it is please delete your account OP. Its not even close to ban worthy, considering what JTMS and stoneforge had to accomplish to get banned i see the WotC selling magic to aquire Pokemon before that ever happens.
I'm trying to imagine sorin markov as a gym leader in one of those pokemon games which you have to beat him to get his badge... somehow I imagine that he would stab you in the chest with his sword before giving you the badge, even if you beat his pokemon....
196239043 wrote:
Personally, I'd be fine with tea time but then I'm not gonna waste the mana summoning Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. He always takes all the sugar, drinks the whole pot of Earl Grey and doesn't even say thank you. SO. RUDE.

 

JustTerrorIt wrote:

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

All I want to do is sit down and play magic, but when I walked in yesterday, (since I didn't talk to anyone) nobody talked to me and I silently bought what I wanted and walked out.


If you don't talk to anyone, that increases the odds that no one will talk to you.

 

JuliusPringle wrote:

So how do I just... introduce myself? "Hi, my name is Adam, wanna play magic with me?" Do I go to the counter and talk to the cashier?


Yeah. Talk to the cashier. Tell him/her that you want a Black Lotus, and if they don't have one tell them that the store isn't on par with what you expected.

 

Reach into your back left pocket. Pull out a deck list that you copied directly from some ChannelFireball top 8 Standard discussion, and ask for all the cards, as is, on that list. Then, ask for some random, probably terrible cards from whatever set is Standard legal. Say it's tech for the upcoming changes in the metagame.

 

Pull out a deck, and tell some random dude you wanna test (you have to use the term "test" for this to work) for Standard. Make sure that deck contains Kitchen Finks and Alluring Siren. Maybe throw in Nyxathid for good measure.

 

Finally, before you leave, spill (make it look like an accident) one hundred singleton, random cards onto the floor. Pick them up, put them in a pile, and say "EEE-DEE-AYCH".

 

I know this sounds dumb at first, but it will work. With the method outlined above, you will draw the attention of players that play older formats by asking for cards that no one on Earth can reasonably afford. You will get the attention of the wanna-be pro, Stomp-n00bz players by pulling out a well known decklist and declare that you have "tech" to make it better. You will get the attention of all the kind, helpful players by seemingly not knowing the most common format by having non-Standard legal cards in a deck that you claim is Standard legal. Finally, you catch all the rest of the Magic players by saying "EEE-DEE-AYCH" (EDH (or Commander)).

And there you have it. You will be talking to more people than you would have wanted to talk to in no time.

 

Smoke_Stack wrote:

EDH is the best format anyway


See, it's starting already.

 

Break the Card
What is Break the Card?
Break the Card is a regular thread in the Cards and Combo Forum. Quite simply, the participants are given a Johnnystatic card (e.g. Xenograft) and are asked to build a deck around it. The winner and honorable mentions are sigged below. Get brewing!
Week 1 : Xenograft
This week's Break the Card was based around Xenograft. Thread : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27681049/Break_the_card_:_Xenograft?pg=1 Winner : Axterix with his Vampdrazi deck. Finalist : Vektor480 with his Ally/Golem/Plant deck. Honorable mentions : Zammm for the Turntimber Ranger combo and TinGorilla for suggesting Sarkhan the Mad.
Week 2 : Mindlock Orb
Here's the link to the Mindlock Orb contest : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27697565/Break_the_Card_:_Mindlock_Orb?sdb=1&pg=last#497536269 Winner : Axterix with his Maralen of the Mornsong deck. Honorable mentions : Void_Elemental.
Week 3 : Bludgeon Brawl
Here's the link to Break the Card : Bludgeon Brawl : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27715169/Break_the_Card_:_Bludgeon_Brawl?sdb=1&pg=last#498208797 Winner : Vektor and his Grab the World deck. Finalist : Crandor with his Awesome Aliteration deck. Honorable mentions : RP Jesus with his Wat deck and Zix200 with his Signet Renewal deck.
Week 4 : Followed Footsteps
This week was Followed Footsteps : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27748677/Break_the_Card_:_Followed_Footsteps?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Exponential Growth deck. Honorable mentions : Zix with his Carbon Copies deck and Escef with his Fungus of Speed and Time deck.
Week 5 : Delaying Shield
This week's card was Delaying Shield : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27790101/Break_the_Card_:_Delaying_Shield Winner : Tevish_Szat. Finalist : Vampire_Bat. Honorable Mention : Zix200.
Week 6 : Painter's Servant
This week's card was Painter's Servant : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27940861/Break_the_Card_:_Painters_Servant?pg=1 Winner : Tevish_Szat with his Paint it Black deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his Tiger, Tiger Painted Bright deck.
Week 7 : Venser, the Sojourner
This week's card was Venser, the Sojourner : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/27977489/Break_the_Card_:_Venser,_the_Sojourner Winner : Izzett with her "Venser, Trickster Trader" deck. Finalist : Wprundv with his "Tactical Sojourner Action" deck.
Week 8 : Personal Sanctuary
This week's card was Personal Sanctuary : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28005461/Break_the_card_:_Personal_Sanctuary Winner : MrQuizzles. Honorable mention : Vampire_Bat and UbberSheep
Week 9 : Sundial of the Infinite
This week's card was Sundial of the Infinite : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28038277/Break_the_card_:_Sundial_of_the_Infinite Finalist : Izzett with her "Afterlife Trespassers" deck. Winner : Xeromus with his "Fortune 500" deck.
Week 10 : Jace's Archivist
This week's card was Jace's Archivist : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/28063377/Break_the_Card_:_Jaces_Archivist. Finalists : Jentaru with his "Consecration of the Draw" deck and HereticSmitty with his "ADHD: The deck" deck. Winner : JaxsonBateman with his "The Archives Are Endless!" deck.
Week 11 : Search the City
This week's card was Search the City : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29518555/Break_the_Card_:_Search_the_City Finalist : Mown with "A Thousand Footsteps". Winner : Desolation_masticore with "Burn the City".
Week 12 : Fiend Hunter
This week's card was Fiend Hunter : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29530975/Break_the_Card_:_Fiend_Hunter Winner : Yuyu63 with "Carnival Hunting". Honorable mention : Dknowle's "Champion the Fiend".
Week 13 : Clock of Omens
This week's card was Clock of Omens : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29541549/Break_the_Card_:_Clock_of_Omens?pg=1 Winner : Dknowle's "The Myrs Go Marching".
Week 14 : Light of Sanction
This week's card was Light of Sanction : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29607219/Break_the_Card_:_Light_of_Sanction?pg=1 Winner : Zauzich's "Divine Plague".
Week 15 : Assemble the Legion
This week's card was Assemble the Legion : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29662307/Break_the_Card_:_Assemble_the_Legion Winner : JBTM's "Some Assembly Required".
Week 16 : High Tide
This week's cards were High Tide and/or Bubbling Muck : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29760427/Break_the_Card_:_High_Tide Winner : Mown's "Puppet Strings".
Week 17 : Illusionist's Bracers
This week's card was Illusionist's Bracers : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29776943/Break_the_Card_:_Illusionistss_Bracers Winner : Enigma256's "Tezzeret's Bracers"
Week 18 : Savor the Moment
This week's card was Savor the Moment : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29787235/Break_the_Card_:_Savor_the_Moment Winner : POSValkir's "A Savory Filibuster!"
Week 19 : Grinning Ignus
This week's card was Grinning Ignus : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29795547/Break_the_Card_:_Grinning_Ignus Winner : dknowle's "Luren' and Laughin'".
Week 20 : Transcendence
This week's card was Transcendence : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29806481/Break_the_Card_:_Transcendence Winners : Mown's "Transcending Timing Restrictions" and Dknowle's "Blinded by Greed", tied for the win.
Week 21 : Mortus Strider
This week's card was Mortus Strider : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29818471/Break_the_Card_:_Mortus_Strider Winner : SimonGlume's "Mortus Head".
Week 22 : High Priest of Penance
This week's card was High Priest of Penance : http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29917231/Break_the_Card_High_Priest_of_Penance Winners : JBTM's "Two Clerics and a Goblin walk into a (Bom)bar(dment)..." and POSValkir1's "Choke Their Rivers with Our Dead!".
Week 23 : False Cure
This week's card was False Cure :http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75842/29964239/Break_the_Card_:_False_Cure Winner : Dknowle's "When Hippos Fly".

Week 24 : Akroan Horse

This week's card was Akroan Horse : http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4024821.

Winner : Dknowle's "Indian Giver".

Week 25 : Leylines

This week saw multiple cards being in the contest : all of the Leylines! http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/4067621

Winner : POSValkir1's "Laying the Battle Lines".


Anyway, Magic in general has a problem with diversity.  Check out Mirrodin/New Phyrexia.  The Auriok seem to spend all of their time in oppressive sunlight wearing very little clothing.  Thus, dark skin would be a favorable trait in terms of evolutionary selection.  But no, they're Irish white.



What cards are you looking at?
The Auriok overwhelmingly have ORANGE skin.
Are you sure about liliana being middle eastern?  I'm pretty sure she's black.
I hate dogs.


Liliana being "Middle Eastern" is a TOTAL surprise to me as well, that last massive group shot sort of made her look "Hispanic".




Actually, I don't think this should be so surprising, because I'm pretty sure Spain was conquered by Islamic nationss at one point around 1000 AD. So I'm pretty sure there would be some overlap in Middle Eastern and Hispanic societies.
56965458 wrote:
As long as it's random, I really can't see where's the problem. Anyway, there's already a few standard ways for doing this. We listed them in this thread. If someone does the bogey-bogey, eats the cards, waits until they come out, look out the approximate order, place replacements in the same order, calls the president to ask him to give him a string of numbers, puts the card in the given order, then pick the cards in the order given by taking the date of birth of his opponent, reversed, and taking only every other number, then a judge can clearly declare that he's random enough.
56874518 wrote:
The beauty of sarcasm is that when the person using it is totally incorrect, you can just remove the sarcasm and end up with a post that is actually correct.
Somebody should find and post that M12 Planeswalker mural that was a promo poster and then UP turned into 3 sets of sleeves and deckboxes.
I dont feel Liliana has looked anything but white on her cards, but I and everyone at my store thought she looked Egyptian on the poster.
For the most part Post-Mending Continuity had a lof of walkers donning Old-Aged looking forms (Commodore Gruff and Urza comes into mind), but please correct me if I am wrong, I have never really encountered, saw, or read of a Planeswalker who is fat. I mean, not even slightly chubby. :/




I dunno, Manatarqua was the size of a pavillion.





Well played.

@The-D:



I remember not particularly liking this image when it came out because its figures didn't quite match what we had seen on the cards. (And actually, I still kinda feel that way--there's something odd about Elspeth and Jace in particular. This might just be my antipathy toward this particular style, though.) But I guess this version of Liliana is more canonically accurate?


And yeah, these are... a lot of very similar body types.  
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Actually, I don't think this should be so surprising, because I'm pretty sure Spain was conquered by Islamic nationss at one point around 1000 AD. So I'm pretty sure there would be some overlap in Middle Eastern and Hispanic societies.



I am fairly sure it has more to do with the Crusader settlements in Lebanon and the like, as well as slave raids on the mediterranean coast.


While Spain was colonized by the Umayyad Caliphs, the Umayyad army was Berber, and thus North African, rather than Middle Eastern.



It still doesn't make sense, though. We have seen Liliana's home kingdom and it wasn't Middle Eastern in arquitecture or clothing. Her name isn't Middle Eastern, either. So, she is from a fictional ethnicity that just resembles physically a minority of Middle Eastern people, but is culturally Eastern European.

For the most part Post-Mending Continuity had a lof of walkers donning Old-Aged looking forms (Commodore Gruff and Urza comes into mind), but please correct me if I am wrong, I have never really encountered, saw, or read of a Planeswalker who is fat. I mean, not even slightly chubby. :/




I dunno, Manatarqua was the size of a pavillion.





Well played.

@The-D:



I remember not particularly liking this image when it came out because its figures didn't quite match what we had seen on the cards. (And actually, I still kinda feel that way--there's something odd about Elspeth and Jace in particular. This might just be my antipathy toward this particular style, though.) But I guess this version of Liliana is more canonically accurate?


And yeah, these are... a lot of very similar body types.  



I agree about the art matching but its still good art. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw the question about Lili in the Ask Brady thread.
And while Rosewater may not be the goto-guy for flavor, its not like he wouldn't know if this was something that had been discussed and decided.

And while Rosewater may not be the goto-guy for flavor, its not like he wouldn't know if this was something that had been discussed and decided.




Maybe, but at the same time it's not like we have any previous indication that this is the case. Perhaps if he had shared this before she had quite so much art or if that art had matched their expectations a little closer we wouldn't be having such a hard time believing this.
And of course, her home plane bloody well didn't help.

Honestly, if anyone in the group would have struck me as middle eastern, I would have said Elspeth. She's got the facial features I commonly associate with the fairer skinned middle easterners.
I know what you're saying. I dont think MaRo made this decision on his own and shared it with the world. I'm just saying that whatever any of the Planeswalkers are, he would know. She doesn't look it in any card art. But she looks it a lot in the M12 art. And thats the biggest thing we have to go by.
Teferi getting re-sparked is on my wishlist.  I want my Samuel L. Jackson of Magic back.


Seriously?  Why is Teferi the Samuel L. Jackson of Magic? 


Because he's Sean Connery but with the right amount of hair and colour. Thus is Samual L. Jackson. Seriously how is this a question?

I agree with Sarkhan being Mongolian and Lily being Irish, by the way. He, well, just fits, and Lily is as pale as they get and is firmly settled within Irisheuropean Medieval settings as far as the background goes.
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...In what way is Teferi anything like a typical Sean Connery character? Or a Jackson character, for that matter? 

@The D:

I dunno, MaRo has a history of making flavor comments that are probably technically true, but usually explained in ways that are... less than competent. 

Basically, MaRo likes to talk. A lot. And sometimes he ends up blabbing about things that should really have been revealed or discussed by people that, like, actually are directly involved and have a good idea of how to break that particular information to the fans.

You're right, though, that this art seems to better match the descriptions he's giving. I just... keep looking at Jace's weirdly prominent lips and cheekbones and wondering if this particular poster is really the most canonical piece of art around, you know?



(Also, I like how many new people, or old people that don't post here much, have shown up for this discussion. That's cool.) 
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Liliana is Middle Eastern like I'm an ent. There is no such thing as the Middle East wherever she's from. Simailarly Jace is pale and has white features as we'd identify them but he's not Caucasian. The most accurate you can get with them is "pale human from Plane X," which genetically may or may not have very much in common with the pale people from Plane Y.
Astetically, though, yeah it'd be cool to have some people you could find in a snowdrift.



This. So much.

Additionally, more non-humans. I think we need at least Merfolk, Dwarf, and Goblin. I would also really like to see some more of the original Magic races like Kor, Kithkin, Rhox, or Noggle.

The only non-human planeswalkers we've seen are Tamiyo, Nissa, Ajani, and Nicol Bolas. I'm not sure what Tamiyo is and elves are pretty much human, so Ajani and Nicol Bolas are the only ones we've seen that don't essentially look human. Where are the Centaur, Minotaur, and Loxodon planeswalkers?
This wouldn't be the first time we had walkers with names that don't sync with their backgrounds.

Chandra looks all the world like she's Scottish or Irish, but has a Sanskrit name.
Ajani is from a setting that is largely Mayincatec with an African name.  
Sarkhan is clearly Asiatic with a Slavic name.
 
 

(Also, I like how many new people, or old people that don't post here much, have shown up for this discussion. That's cool.) 




Kukuku...
Somebody should find and post that M12 Planeswalker mural that was a promo poster and then UP turned into 3 sets of sleeves and deckboxes.
I dont feel Liliana has looked anything but white on her cards, but I and everyone at my store thought she looked Egyptian on the poster.


I'll say that Liliana never looks consistent.  I think she's looked white, Persian, emaciated and maybe...Greek-ish?  And that planeswalker group photo poster mader her look mixed.

On her most recent iteration, she actually looks like the villain from the Emperor's New Groove.  I think her name was Ysma.

University of Charleston School of Pharmacy, Class of 2016

My Peasant Cube: A Cube for the Commoners

Basically, MaRo likes to talk. A lot. And sometimes he ends up blabbing about things that should really have been revealed or discussed by people that, like, actually are directly involved and have a good idea of how to break that particular information to the fans.



He's the Peter Molyneux of Magic.

I'll say that Liliana never looks consistent.  I think she's looked white, Persian, emaciated and maybe...Greek-ish?  And that planeswalker group photo poster mader her look mixed.




Chandra gets this pretty bad too.
Between the cards and comics, the artists can't seem to decide if she's pale or bronzed; has grey, blue or brown eyes; and whether her hair is curly or straight.
I think pretty much everyone here is in agreement that more nonhuman 'walkers would be awesome. Incidentally, for newcomers: plug Tamiyo everywhere you can. Rant about how awesome she is whenever possible. She's actually in part an experiment in using weird, out of place races for 'walkers, and how well received she is determines how many caharacters like her we'll see.

Anyway.

I think we're running into a lot of trouble here due to artistic license. Like, I love D Alexander Gregory's work but his versions of the 'walkers are really, really stylized, for example.

Do we have any concept art of these characters? That might be good for establishing a baseline. 
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I LOVE TAMIYO!
SHE IS LITERALLY THE BEST THERE IS.

From what I can gather, for any given walker, the actual character design is a back and forth between creative and the artist responsible for their initial appearance (all of the Planeswalker comics featuring the Lorwyn 5 list Aleksi Briclot as a character creator).

Thus, the most cannonical appearance is the first appearance.    

Edit: I have support for my ramblings!

On Eric Deschamps' blog he has a big-ass HD pic of the Ral-standing-in-a-thunderstorm art we saw from Duels last summer.

"This is Ral Zarek, a new Magic the Gathering character I was given the pleasure to design. I had fun attempting to give him a young and cocky swagger"   (bolded for emphasis)

Incedentally, he did the art for Tamiyo.
Plus concept art!!!

Edit edit: We know that Laura Resnick was solely responsible for Gideon's design and creative decided he was cool enough to return. We should take his physical description in the narrative as law, and all deviations as artistic license. 

Nice work, Thoctar. Yeah, looks like the first appearance should be understood as the standard from which deviations occur.
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I LOVE TAMIYO!
SHE IS LITERALLY THE BEST THERE IS.

Incedentally, he did the art for Tamiyo.
Plus concept art!!!



Oh my goodness~ That "long-dress" concept stage attire... I hope Tamiyo dons it in the future.  It's been a while since we had a graceful female planeswalker around.


Edit edit: We know that Laura Resnick was solely responsible for Gideon's design and creative decided he was cool enough to return. We should take his physical description in the narrative as law, and all deviations as artistic license. 



Has there any been some receipt of sorts on how Laura overlooked the creation of Gideon? Or was Gideon's appearance in his card art specifically detailed in The Purifying Fire?

Nice work, Thoctar. Yeah, looks like the first appearance should be understood as the standard from which deviations occur.



And I'm okay with that. It's interesting to get different artists takes on a character, and sometimes they highlight different aspects of that character's, um, character.
We now know what Jace looks like as a brooding loner, a bellend, an anime character, and an architect.
 
 
Oh my goodness~ That "long-dress" concept stage attire... I hope Tamiyo dons it in the future.  It's been a while since we had a graceful female planeswalker around.


It is nice to have a ladywalker that exudes a more subtle side of feminitiy than a tomboy, a lady of war, and a femme fetale.
Incedentally, I hope that each time we see her, she has a different silly hairdo.


Has there any been some receipt of sorts on how Laura overlooked the creation of Gideon? Or was Gideon's appearance in his card art specifically detailed in The Purifying Fire?



I don't have the book in front of me, but if memory serves it was a wee bit different from the final look he's had in official art.
I think the description actually matches his look in the Purifying Fire manga.
Black hair, leathers.
 

Edit: I have support for my ramblings!

On Eric Deschamps' blog he has a big-ass HD pic of the Ral-standing-in-a-thunderstorm art we saw from Duels last summer.

"This is Ral Zarek, a new Magic the Gathering character I was given the pleasure to design. I had fun attempting to give him a young and cocky swagger"   (bolded for emphasis)

Incedentally, he did the art for Tamiyo.
Plus concept art!!!


I can also personally attest that Peter Mohrbacher was given a great deal of freedom in Tibalt's design. I asked him about it at AWA when he mentioned he got to do an upcoming walker, though he didn't go into any real details at the time, but I specifically asked how much influence he was allowed. He basically got to do the entire thing.

Has there any been some receipt of sorts on how Laura overlooked the creation of Gideon? Or was Gideon's appearance in his card art specifically detailed in The Purifying Fire?



Gideon's art ended up quite a lot different than his description. For one, he didn't wear any armor heavier than leather and aside from that he didn't have that COMPLETELY STUPID GAUNTLET(I know you're reading this Brady, tell Jeremy the gauntlet is dumb and impractical) which has his Sural hooked into it. He normally carries it on his belt. At the least, his hair is long and the colors are right.
Though he didn't have the muttonchops. Ambivalent about them now truthfully...

Incidentally, whilst I was zipping through Deschamp's blog, I came across this:
4.bp.blogspot.com/-f4iwZlxhhh0/T-snlflxD...
This would be kind of great as an evolution of the moonfolk concept. He says the following:
"Aside from choosing from any of the existing races in the M:TG multiverse I was also free to come up with a new race. That is what I hoped to do with the white avatar. Maybe a race that lived their life high in the mountain tops, almost up in the clouds. I had the basic design of her rolling around in my head for awhile but I hadn't found a use for it yet."
(For the record to, NONE of that would make her white. But still, Moonfolk would be a good choice for what she is since the rabbit motif is tied so closely to japanese myth.)