Dragon's Eye View: A Problem with Fey

I have a problem with fey creatures. Okay, maybe not all fey creatures, but I have an issue with dryads and nymphs as described in the history of D&D. 

Read all about Jon's problems with fey in this week's Dragon's Eye View.  

All around helpful simian

One thing he didn't mention was that in oDnD, dryads were a sub-category of nymphs, along with nerieds and naiads, IIRC.

Also, I'd like to note is that classically, Nymphs were regarded as semi-divine; like the Kami of Japan, Nymphs were the goddesses of "this specific natural feature". Additionally, Heroes, being semi-divine themselves, often wound up marrying them, especially when the proceeded to found a kingdom. "Find the nymph of the country so you can marry her" ought to be a viable quest option for a PC who is founding a kingdom as a part of their Legacy.

Additionally, take a look at Arthurian legend for further inspiration; the Lady of the Lake and her sisters were quite important plot-enabling characters, often being the original source for a number of magical artifacts used by the Knights of the Round Table (including King Arthur's Excalibur, and at least one other magical sword used by another knight).
It makes sense that nymphs can have generic features and then specific features based on their sub-type.  I always wondered why the other nymph types never got any air time.

On a related note, where do elves and gnomes stand in DDN?  I thought making them fey was a very logical and satisfactory move in 4e.  Are they back-peddling?

I guess I always identified the dryad as something different because of CS Lewis. Dryads and Nyads, I rembmer Lucy talking about in The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe.


It's been years though so maybe she did say nereids and I've had my memory taken over by media monsters.

I think the nymph bing a stunningly beautiful generic fey creature with elf-like looks, while the dryad is a specific type of nymph that is associated with a tree sounds good but i don't think the monstrous dryad is a good visual direction for the D&D dryad. I think the D&D dryad should be a blend of beautiful elf + plant like features gracefully incorporated.

Here's some dryads i like:

[sblock]







Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

yeah that monster dryad was horrible.
If the Dryads an issue, I can't wait to see what he thinks about the Lamia.

Regardless, of the several wheel reinventions 4E went through, the Fey(wyld) was the one that was most a mixed bag for me.
I never expect myhto-historical accuracy from D&D, but some of that stuff was down right curious. Sometimes in a good and interesting way, other times... I was left going lolwut?
I have an answer for you, it may even be the truth.
I think the nymph bing a stunningly beautiful generic fey creature with elf-like looks, while the dryad is a specific type of nymph that is associated with a tree sounds good but i don't think the monstrous dryad is a good visual direction for the D&D dryad. I think the D&D dryad should be a blend of beautiful elf + plant like features gracefully incorporated.

Here's some dryads i like:

[sblock]






I don't like the third one. No vagina = symbolic lack of fertility, which is one of the things that nymphs (especially plant-based nymphs) are all about. I suppose that sort of symbolism might fit for the nymph of a nuclear wasteland or something like the Mournlands, though.

EDIT: Quoted and spoilered images aren't working properly, unfortunately.
To me, a dryad has 2 forms. They normally look like beautiful elf-like women with in leafy and bark clothes. Then if they are angered, their skin darkens to a bark color and they look like a curvy treant with wooked fists or claws.

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I suposse the plant monster dryad can be a alternative shape. (To avoid breaking balance it could be added like optional template).

I suggest a monster template to create enemies who could change shape, for example PCs are go to question to a old woman about a suppose serial killer witch they discover she is really a hag, or when the gnome spy is about to be catched, he is really a spriggan, and he polymorphe himself to become a creature like fomorian giant.

Other option the dryads could transform themself by a magic item. 



New suggestion: the wilden PC race from Player Handbook III could be a dryad subrace (or mixed blood with fay and treants ancestors), or only linked. Some wilden are dryads who has replaced her tree link for primal power (used by druids, skin-walker/wardens, shamans, barbarians, and some rangers and totemists) to survive. Do imagine a living wood spelljammer really is the a dryad´s home (a crazy idea, isn´t it?). 


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nymph#Classificati...

---

* Oriental kami and shens are fey creatures?

* Le-Shay from "Epic Levels Handbook" shouldn´t be forgorten, they can be useful later. Shide (canon creature in "Dark Matters" could be a elf subrace with le-Shay ancestors...

* If I could I would add optional background to nymphs. A beauty lady who lives always alones in the forest is too boring, only a fay version of "throphy wife" nPC. Some nymphs could be less solitary and linked to a town (a firshemen village or silviculture&fruit company store), or protect a sacred place. Let´s imagine that friendly granny, the mayor´s mother, really is a disguised grain nymph. Some unseeile nymphs are wifes of some powerful and rich noble...(being a evil psychopath doesn´t mean cause a blood bath if it isn´t necesary nor fun). 

Nymphs could be wonderful character to create D&D paranatural romance stories...(or parody of these ones). 

* Could be brownies be a PC subrace?

* Could be Arak fays from Shadow rift (Ravenloft) generic creatures? (Alve, brag, fir, muryan, portune, powrie, shee, shith and teg).

* Could sluaghs from Cerilia (birthright) be a fay+undead monster?

* Banshee is undead...we agreed it...but... could she be fay subtype too?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of." - Confucius 

I'd prefer for the tree women to simply be a sort of "lesser treant", or something like that, similar to the evil shrub-person monsters from the Sunless Citadel.
Maybe dryads can cast barkskin which is their woody form.
But most importantly, they must still be somewhat attractive.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I don't like the third one. No vagina = symbolic lack of fertility, which is one of the things that nymphs (especially plant-based nymphs) are all about. I suppose that sort of symbolism might fit for the nymph of a nuclear wasteland or something like the Mournlands, though.



huh. i thought there was plenty of implied vagina there. I mean, visually it's a woman in every respect - it just merges with a tree which is kinda neat.

I don't like the third one. No vagina = symbolic lack of fertility, which is one of the things that nymphs (especially plant-based nymphs) are all about. I suppose that sort of symbolism might fit for the nymph of a nuclear wasteland or something like the Mournlands, though.



huh. i thought there was plenty of implied vagina there. I mean, visually it's a woman in every respect - it just merges with a tree which is kinda neat.



O_o


Her bottom half is a tree, dude. Not just tree-shaped, but an actual tree. Trees don't have vaginas.

O_o

Her bottom half is a tree, dude. Not just tree-shaped, but an actual tree. Trees don't have vaginas.




wait. they don't?


Seriously, it's a jusxtaposition of images.  A pretty standard one, all things considered. One might even consider it a safe interpretation. The monster drawing in the article is more daring - but I don't think it's as successful. Or successful at all, for that matter.


The woman in that drawing is both a woman and a tree in every respect. Just 'cause the bottom half is becoming wood doesn't mean I can't imagine her stepping into a fully humanoid form (and it'll have to, if it's going to move around and interact with humanoids as nymphs do) or going totally tree-like.


If the image doesn't work for you then that's fine; art is subjective that way. But I don't accept that because the bottom half isn't fully humanoid then that means it can't be fully humanoid. The implied state is that the dryad is both things, not one or the other.

I think, where possible, Next should attempt to fix issues like this.  Why not have a generic nymph entry, which is then subdivided into specific types.  I believe this was done for some monsters beginning in AD&D 2e's Monstrous Compendium entries.  Make the generic nymph beautiful with exaggerated elven features, and then give the specific types something to make them stand out that relates to their environment both visually and in their powers.  Dryads would have green skin and twig-ish hair, nereids would be bluish and have hair like seaweed, etc.  I don't think this is as much of an issue as you are making it Jon.

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I think they need to get rid of the Nymph as a creature and keep it as a category like goblinoid. The monster version of the dryad is bad. It misses the point. They are supposed to be beautiful women...Smile
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I think they need to get rid of the Nymph as a creature and keep it as a category like goblinoid. The monster version of the dryad is bad. It misses the point. They are supposed to be beautiful women...



Nymph should have been a category from the very start.  There is little distinguishing them from each other. 



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It makes sense that nymphs can have generic features and then specific features based on their sub-type.  I always wondered why the other nymph types never got any air time.

Agreed. There are lots of types of nymphs. I'd like to see more than just the "generic" nymph and the dryad. Nymphs are nature spirits -- trees, air, water, etc.

I don't want the dryad to be depicted as a monster. They can be capricious, subtle, and alluring, but not necessarily monstrous or bad.

In memory of wrecan and his Unearthed Wrecana.

It makes sense that nymphs can have generic features and then specific features based on their sub-type.  I always wondered why the other nymph types never got any air time.

Agreed. There are lots of types of nymphs. I'd like to see more than just the "generic" nymph and the dryad. Nymphs are nature spirits -- trees, air, water, etc.

I don't want the dryad to be depicted as a monster. They can be capricious, subtle, and alluring, but not necessarily monstrous or bad.


Well, not always, anyway. Medusa and her sisters were originally nymphs, after all, until she was raped by Poseidon in Athena's temple, and they got cursed and transformed into monsters by Athena as a result. I'd also note that their brothers and sons are also usually powerful monsters of various varieties. Medusa's children, for instance, were the original Pegasus and a giant with golden skin, who became the king of Iberia; his son was Geryon, a giant with three torsos/heads who was killed by Hercules. Her sisters, besides the Gorgons, included the three hags who shared a single eye between them, the dragon Ladon, and a couple different groups of nymphs. She was also related to the drakaina (female dragon) Echidna, Mother of Monsters, though whether Echidna was Medusa's sister, aunt, or grand-daughter depends on the legend.
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Ahh, the great outdoors.

For the trees!
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I think, where possible, Next should attempt to fix issues like this.  Why not have a generic nymph entry, which is then subdivided into specific types.  I believe this was done for some monsters beginning in AD&D 2e's Monstrous Compendium entries.  Make the generic nymph beautiful with exaggerated elven features, and then give the specific types something to make them stand out that relates to their environment both visually and in their powers.  Dryads would have green skin and twig-ish hair, nereids would be bluish and have hair like seaweed, etc.  I don't think this is as much of an issue as you are making it Jon.




Dryad's do need to be associated with a tree.   There is already far too much D&D lore and modules written for that to be changed.     D&D lore doesn't have to be anything like real mythology either.

Your suggestion is exactly how I would design the two races. 


There are infact several dryad and nymph types in 2e.

Hamadryad
These woodland spirits appear to be beautiful elven or human females, except that they have deep, sparkling, green eyes and long green hair. They are peaceful, quick-witted, and polite, but shy. They rarely speak to humans and their ilk. Like their cousins the dryads, each hamadryad is linked to an individual oak tree; however, a hamadryad can leave the vicinity of her tree.

Dryad
Dryads are beautiful, intelligent tree sprites. They are as elusive as they are alluring, however, and dryads are rarely seen unless taken by surprise – or they wish to be spotted.
The dryad’s exquisite features, delicate and finely chiseled, are much like an elf maiden’s. Dryads have high cheek bones and amber, violet, or dark green eyes. A dryad’s complexion and hair color changes with the seasons, presenting the sprite with natural camouflage. During the fall, a dryad’s hair turns golden or red, and her skin subtly darkens from its usual light tan to more closely match her hair color. This enables her to blend with the falling leaves of autumn. In winter, both the dryad’s hair and skin are white, like the snows that cover the oak groves. When encountered in a forest during fall or winter, a dryad is often mistaken for an attractive maid, probably of elvish descent. No one would mistake a dryad for an elf maid during the spring and summer, however. At these times of year, a dryad’s skin is lightly tanned and her hair is green like the oak leaves around her.
Dryads often appear clothed in a loose, simple garment. The clothing they wear is the color of the oak grove in the season they appear. They speak their own tongue, as well as the languages of elves, pixies, and sprites. Dryads can also speak with plants.

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Habitat/Society: Some legends claim that dryads are the animated souls of very old oak trees. Whether this is really the case, it is true that dryads are attached to a single, very large oak tree in their lifetimes and cannot, for any reason, go more than 360 yards from that tree. If a dryad does wander farther away, she becomes weak and dies within 6d6 hours unless returned to her home. The oak trees of dryads do not radiate magic, but someone finding a dryad’s home has great power over her. A dryad suffers damage for any damage inflicted upon her home tree. Any attack on a dryad’s tree will, of course, bring on a frenzied defense by the dryad.
Although dryads are generally very solitary, up to six have been encountered in one place. This is rare, however. All this really means is that a number of dryad oaks are within 100 yards of one another and the dryads’ paths cross. These dryads may come to each other’s aid, but never really gather socially. Any treasure owned by a tree sprite is hidden close to her home tree. The gold and gems that make up a dryad’s treasure are almost always the gifts of charmed adventurers.
These tree sprites realize that most humans and demihumans fear them for their ability to charm, so dryads only deal with strangers on rare occasions. When approached carefully, however, dryads have been known to aid adventurers. They are a useful source of information, too, as they know a great deal about the area in which they live.
Ecology: Dryads are staunch protectors of the forest and groves in which they reside. Any actions that harm the area, and especially its plant life, are met with little tolerance.


 

Grain nymphs
Grain nymphs are related to their woodland sisters, but have adopted cultivated fields for their homes. Like other nymphs, they are extraordinarily beautiful, possessing great appeal for most males. Like certain other faerie creatures (kilmoulis, dobies, etc.) they have adapted to the encroaching humankind. They are also, in every sense of the word, intoxicatingly beautiful.
Grain nymphs speak elvish and common, can speak to animals at will, and can summon insects (or repel them, depending on the needs of the field).

Unseelie nymph
These spiteful, evil creatures are fey and twisted relatives of other nymphs. Unseelie nymphs delight in the perversion and corruption of everything that is good and beautiful in the natural world.


Despite their foul hearts and evil spirits, these creatures possess the almost supernatural beauty of their more beneficent relatives. Unseelie nymphs resemble slim, full-bodied women, with delicate features. Thick, resplendent hair, full, pouty lips, and smooth-as-silk skin accentuate their triumphant beauty. Only a brief, calculating smile or an occasional hard glint from their piercing eyes betrays the evil nature of these creatures. Few people, however, can see beyond the unearthly beauty of an unseelie nymph into the corrupt heart of the evil creature. These nymphs prefer loose-fitting robes that sparkle with multicolor hues as they gracefully move.
Unseelie nymphs are extremely intelligent and speak their own language, as well as the language of faeriekind. In addition, these creatures can speak the common tongue and communicate with all evil faerie spirits (baelnorns and nightshades, for example).


Nymph
So beautiful that a glimpse can blind or even kill a man, the nymphs are the embodiment of loveliness, a triumph of nature.


A nymph’s beauty is beyond words – an ever-young woman with sleek figure and long, thick hair, radiant skin and perfect teeth, full lips and gentle eyes. A nymph’s scent is delightful, and her long robe glows, hemmed with golden threads and embroidered with rainbow hues of unearthly magnificence. A nymph’s demeanor is graceful and charming, her mind quick and witty. Nymphs speak their own musical language and the common tongue.


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Habitat/Society: These beautiful females inhabit only the loveliest of wilderness places, clear lakes and streams, glacier palaces, ocean grottoes, and crystalline caverns. Nymphs prefer a solitary existence, but very occasionally a few will gather together in a place of spectacular charm, though these rendezvous seldom last for more than a few months. Animals of all types flock to a nymph to be petted and caressed, forgetting their natural enemies to gather around the lovely creature.
There is a 10% chance that a nymph will be friendly if approached by a good creature without the latter first glimpsing the nymph, by calling or other prior notice. On the other hand, if a nymph sees a human male with 18 Charisma and good alignment before he sees her, it is 90% probable that the nymph will be favorably inclined toward the man. It is still necessary to make saving throws upon sighting the nymph.
Nymphs hate ugliness and evil and sometimes will help to defeat it. Any treasure they possess has usually been given to them by some lovesick man.
Ecology: Like a druid, a nymph believes in the sanctity of nature and her environment and will try to keep her lair safe and pure. She will heal wounded animals and mend broken trees and plants. Sometimes she will even help a human in distress (5% chance). Since nymphs live for many generations, they can provide a wealth of information on the history of an area and often know secret places, hide-outs, and entrances long forgotten. If a man is kissed by a nymph, all painful and troubling memories are forgotten for the rest of the day – this may be a boon to some and a curse to others. A lock of nymph’s hair can be used to create a powerful sleeping potion or, if enchanted and woven into a cloth and sewn into a garment, will magically add one point to the wearer’s Charisma. The tears of a nymph can be used as an ingredient in a philter of love. If a woman bathes in a nymph’s pool, her Charisma is increased by two points until she bathes again.









I have got a question: Is the D&D grain nymph a epimeliade or pegaigai? 

Could lampades (from classic mythology) be fay hags?
(is there a link between fays, witchs and hags?)

Is there link between Melissai (honey bee nymph) and abeils (Monster Manula II, 3rd Ed)?

Some nymphs from Classic mythology were married to kings. 

I suposse some nymphs could be grand-daugthers of some half-god or half-goddess.

* Imaginiting nyphs like beauty but solitary fays who live in too far zones is too boring. They are only a esthetic nPCs.  
 
*  We don´t need reject the plant monster treant-like dryad, we can choose both versions because it can be a alternative shape dryads use to defend themselfs, something like duergar powers to change size.

* Are the D&D sylphes fay linked to nymphs?

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*  We don´t need reject the plant monster treant-like dryad, we can choose both versions because it can be a alternative shape dryads use to defend themselfs, something like duergar powers to change size.


Maybe I'm not being productive, but yes we do need to reject that horrible picture. It's so fundamentally NOT what the greeks were on about (and they did describe them - at length) and it doesn't fit any definition of what a dryad does or is.


It could be another tree spirit or maybe an asian wood elemental type thing. Placed in the context of an angry wood spirit I could see that picture being cool.


But as a dryad? Please dear gaia no.

Here's some dryads i like:

[sblock]







Here are some dryads that I like:

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Here are some dryads that I like:


minor point: male nymphs are satyrs. I don't see why D&D has to adhere to greek mythology to the letter, but if dryads are just another kind of nymph then the continuity would then follow to say that satyrs are male nymphs which is why nymphs are always female.
minor point: male nymphs are satyrs.

No they are not. I have no idea why so many people are confused by this. There were female Satyrs. And male dryads aren't exactly a recent invention either; mythology does include male tree spirits that are for all intents in purposes exactly the same as dryads. Look up Ghillie Dhu, for example.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
minor point: male nymphs are satyrs.

No they are not. I have no idea why so many people are confused by this. There were female Satyrs. And male dryads aren't exactly a recent invention either; mythology does include male tree spirits that are for all intents in purposes exactly the same as dryads. Look up Ghillie Dhu, for example.



erm. Yes, as a matter of fact they are. Male nature spirits are totally fine, but they're not part of greek mythology which is what a nymph is specifically drawn from.


Faerie are from a totally different mythology and have completely different set of stories surrounding them. There is room for male nature spirits, of course, but they're not nymphs.

Shouldn't a nymph be genderless. A plant has both reproduction systems. Water can heal and destroy. Shouldn't the nymph not have a specific gender? I'm still under the impression that as nature spirits the nymph played as servant of the gods. The whole Greek beautiful woman thing could be explained away as a glamour type ability. One granted by thd gods to protect their servants.
Male nature spirits are totally fine, but they're not part of greek mythology which is what a nymph is specifically drawn from.

Oh, you mean like how D&D doesn't have female minotaurs or female centaurs or male harpies or male gorgons? What ever was I thinking?

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Shouldn't a nymph be genderless. A plant has both reproduction systems. Water can heal and destroy. Shouldn't the nymph not have a specific gender? I'm still under the impression that as nature spirits the nymph played as servant of the gods. The whole Greek beautiful woman thing could be explained away as a glamour type ability. One granted by thd gods to protect their servants.



Could do. It's really a matter of perspective.


I think nymphs should never under any circumstances be male because the lore they're drawn from say so. I think male versions of nymphs are totally fine, just don't call 'em nymphs. Call them something from the lore they come from.


It's the links to human history that makes this game come alive sometimes. Sure it's about fantasy and magic and stuff that's totally unreal, but it's also about us as a people.


If they went and gave us male nymphs, I won't go passing out pitchforks and torches to mob the WOTC offices, but I won't DM them either.

It's the links to human history that makes this game come alive sometimes.

And getting past the stupid parts of human history like random sexist BS is what makes this game relevant in this century.

If they went and gave us male nymphs, I won't go passing out pitchforks and torches to mob the WOTC offices, but I won't DM them either.

Nobody's going to make you use them. We just don't want WotC to preclude their existance.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Male nature spirits are totally fine, but they're not part of greek mythology which is what a nymph is specifically drawn from.

Oh, you mean like how D&D doesn't have female minotaurs or female centaurs or male harpies or male gorgons? What ever was I thinking?



So the inconsistencies elsewhere are reasons to just throw the whole tapestry away? Don't be ridiculous.


Anyway as I recall, a gorgon in 2e was a bull-like creature and nothing resembling Medusa at all. I've never heard of a male harpy, nor would I include one in any adventure I DMed, but some of the images are pretty androgenous so maybe that's not really that much of an inconsistency or rather, maybe it's not one that D&D brought into play. Centaurs never made any claims of being all one sex, nor did minotaurs.


Actually the minotaur was a one-off and not a race of creatures at all.


Transformative work is fine and expanding ideas is also fine. I just personally think the idea of a male nymph is silly, especially in view of the fact that there are plenty of other mythologies to draw from with appropriate terms and lore that makes sense.


Would anyone turn around and say that there need to be male succubi? Probably not, especially in view of the fact that the incubus does that job without needing to butcher an existing term. By the same token, I'm saying there's no need for a male nymph becuase there is plenty of other, better terminology out there.

Male nature spirits are totally fine, but they're not part of greek mythology which is what a nymph is specifically drawn from.

Oh, you mean like how D&D doesn't have female minotaurs or female centaurs or male harpies or male gorgons? What ever was I thinking?



So the inconsistencies elsewhere are reasons to just throw the whole tapestry away? Don't be ridiculous.


Yes, and it's not ridiculous.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

It's the links to human history that makes this game come alive sometimes.

And getting past the stupid parts of human history like random sexist BS is what makes this game relevant in this century.


It's not any more sexist than the term "mother". If you wanna call greek mythology stupid and irrelevant because nymphs are always female in greek mythology you go ahead and do that but I doubt you'll get much traction there. If you want to say that greek mythology needs tinkering to be made valid in this century, the evidence against you is too vast to get into here.


We just don't want WotC to preclude their existance.



WOTC isn't, necessarily. But history is. And like I said earlier, there is better terminology to use that brings other really cool mythologies into focus. Ones that don't get a lot of press that might be more interesting to read about.


Course if they just get lazy and tack men into the nymph template we'll never find out will we?



Anyway it's obvious you made up your mind so I'll leave this here. Just consider that maybe there are better resources than the greeks and maybe the greek stuff should be left alone.

It's the links to human history that makes this game come alive sometimes.

And getting past the stupid parts of human history like random sexist BS is what makes this game relevant in this century.


The game can be relevant in this century without being revisionist about previous ones.
So the inconsistencies elsewhere are reasons to just throw the whole tapestry away?

Not the whole thing, just the stupid parts.

I've never heard of a male harpy...

They're explicitly described at least in the 4E MM, if I recall correctly.

...nor would I include one in any adventure I DMed...

Nobody is asking you to. We're just asking that WotC not preclude the possibility.

Centaurs never made any claims of being all one sex, nor did minotaurs.

The Centaur was originally male-only, just like Satyrs were originally male-only. Things change. The Minotaur was originally a single creature.

I just personally think the idea of a male nymph is silly...

Why? Please, give me a reason that (a) doesn't have anything to do with adherence to classical mythology, because I don't care, and (b) isn't sexist.

Would anyone turn around and say that there need to be male succubi?

Of course. Isn't that what incubi are? Just a different name for the same thing. Hell, as I understand them in many other versions, Succubi are just demons or devils that take on the form of whatever they want to look sexy, whether male or female.

I'm saying there's no need for a male nymph becuase there is plenty of other, better terminology out there.

Like for example...?

If you want to say that greek mythology needs tinkering to be made valid in this century, the evidence against you is too vast to get into here.

I am all ears.

The game can be relevant in this century without being revisionist about previous ones.

It can only be relevant if it does not preclude the possibility of revision.

Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TM Speaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
Nobody is asking you to. We're just asking that WotC not preclude the possibility.


Given how little you care about fluff, how could WotC possibly preclude the possibility?
Really the true name of mythologic minotaur was Asterion.

* The word "nymph" from Greek means "bride" or " marriageable young woman". The male equivalent to mymph would need other name.

* There were females centaurs, the centaurides. The female satyr is satyress or fauness

* The D&D male medusa counterpart is the maedar but he hasn´t got snake-hair nor petryfing gaze.

* The half-nymph template was published in Dragon Magazine nº 313, wasn´t it?

"Say me what you're showing off for, and I'll say you what you lack!" (Spanish saying)

 

Book 13 Anaclet 23 Confucius said: "The Superior Man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony"

 

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Howdy folks,

The discussion/argument about gender is off-topic and quickly descending into flame war territory.  Let's return to the original topic and leave the gender discussion for another thread. 

Thanks. 

All around helpful simian