Fighting Styles and Schemes that do something.

The page says "Fighting Style"
I see "Pick a maneuver"

The pages says "Scheme"
I see "Pick 4 skills and a maneuver"

The schemes and styles of the previous playtest had a better feeling to me.  Each scheme made the rogue play differently and the class feature greatly changed how the rogue fought. The same with the fighting styles with fighters but to a lesser state.

Now 3 classes have expertise dice. Fighting styles and schemes are just prepackages of skills and maneuvers.

How about fighting styles and schemes being actual class features that matter?

Do you think Schemes and Fighting Styles should have a mechanical aspect?

if yes, what should they be?

For fighters, I think each fighting style should let you perform their level 1 maneuver for free. Essentially a Slayer never pays for Glancing blow. The Duelist can spam Spring Attack. The Protector doesn't paid for Protect. And as Mike Mearls requested, the Veteran doesn;t have to track ED for Parry.


For rogues. each scheme should let the rogue... do something. Like make a skill check to gain advantage.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I'm pretty sure the point of those things, though, is exactly that they don't do anything at all. They're just there for newer players who don't want to have to read through fifty maneuvers to create their characters. It's the same thing for Background and Specialties. They're just there to make character creation quicker and easier.

That said, I think that you've stumbled onto an interesting idea for how to differentiate the Fighter from other Expertise-using classes: Give them "signature" maneuvers. Let them pick a maneuver that they know at first level other than Deadly Strike and give them one free bonus expertise die per round to be spent specifically on that maneuver.

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Its a good idea. I definitely want each of the classes to have something other than their maneuvers/spells. The monk was a good start on this.
+1

I really want to see expertise dice becomea fighter thing and maneuvers become something that doesn't use expertise dice, but keeping Deadly Strike, Parry, and Glancing Blow as expertise abilities.

Anything for Fighting Style and Rogue Scheme is better than nothing.
 

For fighters, I think each fighting style should let you perform their level 1 maneuver for free.  



You mean one free dice at it right?
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This has been an interesting line of discussion at my table. WotC said "lets give Fighter's something unique!" and they developed an in-depth and really cool resource mechanic. Then Wizards got their traditions, making the old 'pick your spells to difine your class' only a piece of the puzzle... now Fighters have the same 'boring' choices that Wizards previously had. NOTE: that is obviously an oversimplification of facts.

Still, when Wizards/Clerics make their chioces at character creation it provides boons to the character for the rest of the game, whereas the Fighter/Rogue have only selected some options. Let choices be important, give Fighters boons (let the Slayer get an increased damage die regardless of racial training), give the Rogue opportunities to remove disadvantage, give them something so they are interesting to create as other classes.
 

For fighters, I think each fighting style should let you perform their level 1 maneuver for free.  



You mean one free dice at it right?


I understand the need for your question, maneuvers that use the roll result; but I would rather see maneuvers tied to a fighting style be less ED dependant and more of a class feature (e.g., Deadly Strike might just do 2[W] damage instead of using ED) and scale with level (e.g., 3[W] damage at 10 the level, 4[W] damage at 20th level, etc.).

Maybe that would require a different list of these class features that aren't called maneuvers; but this might cause unnecessary duplication of abilities.

EDIT: Edited to correct spelling error. 
I like the sentiment, to be sure. Not sure I'm crazy about the suggestion on how, but this could be some of what Mearls was talking about in the most recent article when he said the dice need to work alongside class features.
The page says "Fighting Style"
I see "Pick a maneuver"

The pages says "Scheme"
I see "Pick 4 skills and a maneuver"

The schemes and styles of the previous playtest had a better feeling to me.  Each scheme made the rogue play differently and the class feature greatly changed how the rogue fought. The same with the fighting styles with fighters but to a lesser state.

Now 3 classes have expertise dice. Fighting styles and schemes are just prepackages of skills and maneuvers.

How about fighting styles and schemes being actual class features that matter?

Do you think Schemes and Fighting Styles should have a mechanical aspect?

if yes, what should they be?



I agree wholeheartedly, both in regards to styles/schemes and even further in regard to specialties.  These abilities need to have something that make them more than just packages of manuevers and feats.  Deities and Traditions both grant an extra class feature of some kind that are distinct from spells, so I think Schemes and Styles should grant extra class features that are distinct from maneuvers.  

For the Fighter, the Duelist Style could bump up the damage die of rapiers and grant an extra 5' of movement, the Protector could have some kind of Marking ability, the Sharpshooter could bump up the damage die of ranged weapons (elven sharpshooters with longbows would be SCARY... as they should be), the Slayer could reclaim its STR-damage-on-a-miss ability, and the Veteran could have its XD refresh at both the start AND end of its turn.  

On the Rogue end, the Schemes should build around using signature skills to generate Advantage, since IMO exploiting circumstances to generate an unfair advantage is nearly as iconic to the rogue concept as skills are.  The Acrobat could get Advantage following a successful Tumble check.  The Enforcer could do the same, but with an Intimidate check instead.  The Rake can do it with a flashy display of flourishes and feints, so he'd use Bluff.  The Thief should always have Advantage when using their Thieves' Tools and Sneak attempts.  Tricksters would use Sleight-of-Hand.  At later levels, the Schemes would offer special class features that require Advantage to function (a la Sneak Attack).



Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

From one of the other "giving the fighter nice things" threads:

So, do we make Fighting Styles more interesting and meaty somehow? 

Looking at the Cleric's domains, they have: their domain spells (which are better than just "suggested options"), some "usable at-will" options, and a feature that is, at its simplest, equivalent to two or three sets of weapon proficiencies.

Honestly, I'm just not thrilled with the idea.  We would wind up with little fiddly benefits that don't really need to be associated with any particular combat style, or weapon choice.



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The last thing I want to see is more mechanics related to the Expertise and Maneuver system. I am truthfully tired of seeing those mechanics.
The last thing I want to see is more mechanics related to the Expertise and Maneuver system. I am truthfully tired of seeing those mechanics.


Given that Expertise is now confirmed as, essentially, the new "base attack bonus", I... Well, let's just say you are probably going to get more tired of them.
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I agree with Orzel; however, these new class features need to be balanced against each other.  The numbers I parsed for the rogue and fighter at level 10 have a ten point difference in DPR.  It's hard to see a class feature tightening the distance.  If the rogue has something to tighten the gap; I would assume that something that big (to make up for being 61% effective in relation to another class) would come out for testing sooner than later.  In addition, adding something to the fighter just means something even bigger needs to be added to the rogue...  But then, a 10th level rogue can regularly break a DC 30 (on average) check (with DC 25 being nearly impossible)...

I agree though.  The fighter needs stuff to give it a good flavor.  However, I would want these additions to promote more broad concepts.  I would like to see a tactical, brutish, defensive, mobile and ranged concepts.   
The last thing I want to see is more mechanics related to the Expertise and Maneuver system. I am truthfully tired of seeing those mechanics.


Given that Expertise is now confirmed as, essentially, the new "base attack bonus", I... Well, let's just say you are probably going to get more tired of them.



Pretty much applies to the entirety of my D&D experience.

I personally liked the previous playtest more with the ED-less rogue. If they just made Sneak Attack based on scheme (low damage SA for thugs and High damage SA for thieves) I'd stand ED more.

Having Maneuvers do all the differentiation feels hollow.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

I personally liked the previous playtest more with the ED-less rogue. If they just made Sneak Attack based on scheme (low damage SA for thugs and High damage SA for thieves) I'd stand ED more. Having Maneuvers do all the differentiation feels hollow.


Agreed, though I actually don't mind the monk having ED. I think it's 'cause in my mind the line between a monk and a fighter is very fine.
Crazy Idea.

What if each scheme makes you into either a facsimile of a previous rogue or a weakened version of another class.

Assassin: Huge damage but Situational Sneak attack rogue.
Thug: Big damage flank and spank 4e-style rogue
Rake/Thief: Fighter-lite rogue with maneuvers
Charlatan/Trickster: Wizard-lite rogue arcane trickster wannabe
Acrobat: Medium damage skirmish style backflipper.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

The page says "Fighting Style"
I see "Pick a maneuver"

The pages says "Scheme"
I see "Pick 4 skills and a maneuver"

The schemes and styles of the previous playtest had a better feeling to me.  Each scheme made the rogue play differently and the class feature greatly changed how the rogue fought. The same with the fighting styles with fighters but to a lesser state.

Now 3 classes have expertise dice. Fighting styles and schemes are just prepackages of skills and maneuvers.

How about fighting styles and schemes being actual class features that matter?

Do you think Schemes and Fighting Styles should have a mechanical aspect?

if yes, what should they be?

For fighters, I think each fighting style should let you perform their level 1 maneuver for free. Essentially a Slayer never pays for Glancing blow. The Duelist can spam Spring Attack. The Protector doesn't paid for Protect. And as Mike Mearls requested, the Veteran doesn;t have to track ED for Parry.


For rogues. each scheme should let the rogue... do something. Like make a skill check to gain advantage.




This i can totally get behind, especially the fighter idea (though parry for free is pretty crazy).  I still say that the thieves tools feature should be nested in the thief scheme (and it shouldn't be required in order to pick locks it should just give a bonus to the checks lik +1).  Maybe there could be some kind of assassin scheme that gives sized up daggers, shortswords, and hand crossbows.  the acrobat could get an ability that allows them to move through battle without provoking attacks (not a maneuver but like something related to making tumble checks as part of a move to straight disallow oportunity attacks).  Stuff like that
The page says "Fighting Style"
I see "Pick a maneuver"

The pages says "Scheme"
I see "Pick 4 skills and a maneuver"

The schemes and styles of the previous playtest had a better feeling to me.  Each scheme made the rogue play differently and the class feature greatly changed how the rogue fought. The same with the fighting styles with fighters but to a lesser state.

Now 3 classes have expertise dice. Fighting styles and schemes are just prepackages of skills and maneuvers.

How about fighting styles and schemes being actual class features that matter?

Do you think Schemes and Fighting Styles should have a mechanical aspect?

if yes, what should they be?



I agree wholeheartedly, both in regards to styles/schemes and even further in regard to specialties.  These abilities need to have something that make them more than just packages of manuevers and feats.  Deities and Traditions both grant an extra class feature of some kind that are distinct from spells, so I think Schemes and Styles should grant extra class features that are distinct from maneuvers.  

For the Fighter, the Duelist Style could bump up the damage die of rapiers and grant an extra 5' of movement, the Protector could have some kind of Marking ability, the Sharpshooter could bump up the damage die of ranged weapons (elven sharpshooters with longbows would be SCARY... as they should be), the Slayer could reclaim its STR-damage-on-a-miss ability, and the Veteran could have its XD refresh at both the start AND end of its turn.  

On the Rogue end, the Schemes should build around using signature skills to generate Advantage, since IMO exploiting circumstances to generate an unfair advantage is nearly as iconic to the rogue concept as skills are.  The Acrobat could get Advantage following a successful Tumble check.  The Enforcer could do the same, but with an Intimidate check instead.  The Rake can do it with a flashy display of flourishes and feints, so he'd use Bluff.  The Thief should always have Advantage when using their Thieves' Tools and Sneak attempts.  Tricksters would use Sleight-of-Hand.  At later levels, the Schemes would offer special class features that require Advantage to function (a la Sneak Attack).



I think you're on to something here.  I honestly really like all the suggestions you gave - couldn't have given better suggestions if I tried.  ^ ^  I also liked Orzel's idea of the level 1 maneuvers getting free ED - would be too bad if the two of those were combined?
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Let me just play Negative Nancy here and say I'm not extremely fond of the idea of extra traits to Schemes. 

I like Fighting Styles / Schemes / Traditions / Domains  to be mix & match, so that a player can create his/her version of a fighter.  you kind of think of it Maneuvers are supposed to be pick & choose class features / powers and that is a very good thing. 

Making choices through maneuvers (and feats) makes it possible without having to add extra traits that make the game ever more complicated and ever harder to balance. I think this is exactly the problem with Traditions and Deities. They are inflexible, not easy to tamper with if you want something unique and have enormous balancing problems. 

I fully agree that Rogue feels like a bad version of the fighter. But IMHO adding extra traits is not the solution - making original maneuvers and a different mechanic to deploy them is. 





The problem with the current "mix n match" approach is that it means Styles and Schemes don't really exist. They're phantom class features that do nothing, like the OP said. To satisfy your camp, though, I would be OK with including a Freestyle version of every class' "kit" (side note: in my head, I've been thinking of Styles/Schemes/Traditions/Domains as Kits. Am I th only one to do that?). The Academic tradition is pretty much this already, so the Freestyle Wizard is covered. The Freestyle Cleric would be the godless "worships a philosophy/ideal" version from past editions. Freestyle martial characters would get a bonus maneuver at first level.

Also, as an aside, it occurs to me that Fighting Styles could stand to offer a themed skill or two (Tumble and/or Bluff for the Duelist, for instance).

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

Second Wind,

A fighter can dig in deep and call upon his or her internal willpower to keep fighting in the face danger.  Once per day, the fighter can induce an adrenaline rush that gives the fighter temporary hitpoints.  Roll all expertise die, you gain temporary hitpoints equal to the total.  In addition, these hitpoints stack with any temporary hitpoints provided by another source.  All expertise die are refunded, and until the next of your next turn are doubled.

Hold the Line,

Once per day, the fighter can focus on standing his ground.  The fighter ignores any attempts to dislodge him or her from his or her spot.  In addition, the fighter can make a DC10 (or whatever fair value you come up with) STR or DEX check to stop any opponent that incites an OA resulting from movement within the fighter's reach.  The number of times the fighter can perform this stop is determined by his or her expertise die.  Roll all of your expertise dice and take the highest value.  You can stop this many enemies.  These expertise dice are not expended by the manuever.  Each enemy stopped take one expertise die in damage with no other damage modifiers.  The fighter retains his reaction action and can freely use this action during the round.

A fighter can attempt to Hold the Line multiple times a day.  Additional attempts require a successful STR, DEX or CON check against a DC of 25.  The fighter may expend expertise dice to aid the ability check.  For each die expended, the fighter can roll an additional modifier.  However, the fighter only keeps the highest die to aid his or her attempt.

Void Strike

Once per day, the fighter can focus his concentration and enter a singular mindset akin to the void to critically strike his opponent.  To use this ability, the fighter must sacrifice any additional attacks until the start of his next turn and must declare the intention to use this ability before making the attack roll.  On a successful hit, the strike is automatically a critical hit.  The fighter may add his expertise dice to the damage.  All expertise die used to enhance damage are maximized.  This ability is not expended on a miss.

The fighter may attempt this manuever additional times a day; however, this requires a INT, WIS or CHA check against a DC of 25.  The fighter may expend expertise dice to aid this ability check.  Roll the expertise dice and take the highest value.  Add this to the check.   

Overwhelm

Once per day, the fighter can call upon his inner reserve to overpower his enemies.  To use this ability, the fighter must declare the intention to use this ability with an attack.  On a successful hit, the strike automatically deals maximum damage along with any die used to modify damage for this attack.  In addition, the opponent is stunned (CON save) and knocked prone (DEX save).  After the attack, the fighter is off-balance and grants advantage to all enemies until the start of his or her next turn.  In addition, the fighter cannot take any reaction actions until the start of his or her next turn.  On a miss, the ability is not expended.

The fighter may attempt this manuever additional times a day; however, this requires a STR check against a DC of 25.  The fighter may expend expertise dice to aid this ability check.  Roll the expertise dice and take the highest value.  Add this to the check.



Just some class features that I was thinking of...  I don't know what level (probably not level one) to add any of them.  I'm not really pushing to add them to a combat style or anything; just presenting some ideas.
      
The page says "Fighting Style"
I see "Pick a maneuver"

The pages says "Scheme"
I see "Pick 4 skills and a maneuver"

The schemes and styles of the previous playtest had a better feeling to me.  Each scheme made the rogue play differently and the class feature greatly changed how the rogue fought. The same with the fighting styles with fighters but to a lesser state.

Now 3 classes have expertise dice. Fighting styles and schemes are just prepackages of skills and maneuvers.

How about fighting styles and schemes being actual class features that matter?

Do you think Schemes and Fighting Styles should have a mechanical aspect?

if yes, what should they be?



I agree wholeheartedly, both in regards to styles/schemes and even further in regard to specialties.  These abilities need to have something that make them more than just packages of manuevers and feats.  Deities and Traditions both grant an extra class feature of some kind that are distinct from spells, so I think Schemes and Styles should grant extra class features that are distinct from maneuvers.  

For the Fighter, the Duelist Style could bump up the damage die of rapiers and grant an extra 5' of movement, the Protector could have some kind of Marking ability, the Sharpshooter could bump up the damage die of ranged weapons (elven sharpshooters with longbows would be SCARY... as they should be), the Slayer could reclaim its STR-damage-on-a-miss ability, and the Veteran could have its XD refresh at both the start AND end of its turn.  

On the Rogue end, the Schemes should build around using signature skills to generate Advantage, since IMO exploiting circumstances to generate an unfair advantage is nearly as iconic to the rogue concept as skills are.  The Acrobat could get Advantage following a successful Tumble check.  The Enforcer could do the same, but with an Intimidate check instead.  The Rake can do it with a flashy display of flourishes and feints, so he'd use Bluff.  The Thief should always have Advantage when using their Thieves' Tools and Sneak attempts.  Tricksters would use Sleight-of-Hand.  At later levels, the Schemes would offer special class features that require Advantage to function (a la Sneak Attack).



I think you're on to something here.  I honestly really like all the suggestions you gave - couldn't have given better suggestions if I tried.  ^ ^  I also liked Orzel's idea of the level 1 maneuvers getting free ED - would be too bad if the two of those were combined?



I have no problem with that, though unless "high level" maneuvers are introduced eventually (I'd like to see that, to be honest), there's no reason it should just be restricted to the 1st level ones, since all maneuvers are at the same power level.  One manuever just gets to be "always on", like it's a Stance, and switching stances would cost an action.

Hmm... this got me thinking about the Book of Nine Swords again.  I'd love to see those classes, stances, and maneuvers rebuilt using the Expertise system.

Wounds Module [updated for Basic]

Proficiency Module

+1 Orzel. I too was disappointed when i saw the new styles and schemes, and thought the same thing you did.

I really loved the Schemes in the second packet. They gave benefits as you leveled up and it was something to look forward to. It helped really define the difference between a thiefy rogue and a thuggy rogue.

The simplest solution would be to award a specific maneuver for each style/scheme. i.e. the Duelist gains Spring Attack as a bonus maneuver (in addition to Deadly Strike). He still gets to choose one maneuver at level 1. This solution serves to increase a character's options, but it doesn't really add anything interesting.

However, I'd much prefer a solution where each style/scheme got its own little set of class features. They don't have to be really big benefits, or even combat related at all!!! Using the Aug17 rogue schemes as a template....

Level 1: an iconic ability of the style/scheme

Level 2: a non-combat/RP benefit associated with the style/scheme

Level 5: a cool ability that helps define and distinguish the style/scheme


So I took a shot at creating some abilities for the new Rogue/Fighter Schemes/Styles. It was harder than I thought it would be to come up with ideas for the Rogue. But I think the Fighter Style benefits are pretty awesome. I also thought we could incorporate Monk Disciplines to this. Let me know what you guys think. Feel free to fill in the blanks.

Rogue Schemes:

The Acrobat
Level 1: You can move easily throughout the battlefield. When moving past an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity, you can add your training in Tumble to your AC in place of your Dexterity modifier.
Level 2: When climbing, you movement is considered to be 5 feet greater
Level 5: When you deal Sneak Attack damage, you can move up to half of your speed as part of the same action.
Using the objects around you, you can gain Half Cover in combat even if you are only 25% covered.

The Enforcer
Level 1: Your Sneak Attacks are crippling. When you deal damage with a Sneak Attack, your targets speed is reduced to 0 until the EOYNT.
Level 2:
Level 5: Make Charisma (Intimidate) check vs Wisdom against a target. On success, you gain advantage on your next check against that target. The target must be intelligent and you must be able to speak their language. Once this abilitiy is used on a creature, it cannot be used against it again for a whole day (regardless of the check's success or failure).

The Rake
Level 1: When you use the Disarm action, you gain a +2 on the check.
Level 2: You love a good audience. When there are at least 2 non-combatants watching you, you gain a +2 to checks involving physical or performance stunts.
Level 5:

The Thief
Level 1: You can Hide when lightly obscured or when you only have 25% cover.
Level 2: Your vision improves. You can spend 1 minute to adjust your eyes to the dark and gain Low Light vision 30 feet. If you already have low-light vision, the distance increases to 45 feet.
Level 5:

The Trickster
Level 1: During the first round of combat, you have advantage on attack rolls against any target that has a lower initiative.
Level 2:
Level 5: Make Charisma (Bluff) check vs Wisdom against a target. On success, you gain advantage on your next check against that target. The target must be intelligent and you must be able to speak their language. Once this abilitiy is used on a creature, it cannot be used against it again for a whole day (regardless of the check's success or failure).


Fighter Styles:

The Duelist
Level 1: When you use the Disengage or Hustle action, you can move an additional 5 feet.
Level 2: Your excellent footwork grants you a +2 on checks to keep your balance, move through difficult terrain, or escape from a grab.
Level 5: your melee attacks with a finesse weapon now crit on a 19-20

The Protector
Level 1: When using the Protect maneuver, if you roll a 1 on your ED you can reroll it. You can only use this ability once per use of this maneuver.
Level 2: Your constant vigilance grants you a +2 AC and Dexterity saving throws while you are surprised and cannot take actions.
Level 5: When making a reflex save to avoid an area attack, you add your Shield's AC bonus (including any magical bonuses) to the roll.

The Sharpshooter
Level 1: Your normal range and long range with missile weapons increases by 25%.
Level 2: Your keen eyes grant you a +2 on checks to notice or find things
Level 5: your ranged attacks with a missile weapon now crit on a 19-20

The Slayer
Level 1: Your aggressive fighting style grants you a +2 on checks to knockdown or push a target.
Level 2: You know where to strike, even with words. You gain a +2 on checks to intimidate or cower targets.
Level 5: When attacking an enemy in melee, if you roll a natural 16+ you can deal your STR-mod to damage to one adjacent enemy.

The Veteran
Level 1: Your combat resolve is strong. You gain a +2 on checks to resist Fear and Charm effects.
Level 2: Your experience leading your allies in battle gives you a +2 on checks to command or influence targets
Level 5: When using the Mighty Exertion maneuver, if you roll a 1 on your ED you can reroll it. You can only use this ability once per use of this maneuver.


Monk Disciplines

Tiger

Crane

Ox

Butterfly

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