Expertise dice vs. anti magic

I'm a bit worried about the power and versatility of expertise dice and their attendant maneuvers in the context of balancing them vs. magic.

In most editions of D&D, magic and spellcasting has been significantly more powerful than mundane attacks. To balance this out, there have been all sorts of anti-magic and anti-spellcasting features in the rules, ranging from silence spells and anti-magic zones to magic resistance and bad weather (yep, sometimes just rain would ruin your spells). Additionally there have been various groups or entities out there who regulate and/or oppose spellcasting (a guild of mages that prohibits non-scanctioned spellcasting within city limits, for example).

In these cases, it sucks to be a wizard; your abilities are either hindered or all-out nullified. And fighters and rogues would happily fight on, relieved that it is finally their turn to shine.

With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities, and I've never seen groups or creatures that can somehow detect when you use a martial stunt. 
Telekinesis? Reverse Gravity? An invisible, flying spellcaster? Archers shooting out of an arrow slit?

There's tons of things that can frustrate punchy brute types and their fancy, shmancy maneuvers.
All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced.

You can loose most of that now.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced. You can loose most of that now.



It's already enshrined in the rules: Many creatures have advantage on saving throws vs. magic (magic resistance) and in certain campaigns (fighting drow, or demons/devils) you are guaranteed to go up against foes which almost always have this trait. Add on top of that the ease of ruining spellcasting (e.g. verbal components — once again silence, a simple 2nd level cleric spell can negate almost every spell).


All the anti-spell stuff is because spell casters where not balanced. You can loose most of that now.



It's already enshrined in the rules: Many creatures have advantage on saving throws vs. magic (magic resistance) and in certain campaigns (fighting drow, or demons/devils) you are guaranteed to go up against foes which almost always have this trait. Add on top of that the ease of ruining spellcasting (e.g. verbal components — once again silence, a simple 2nd level cleric spell can negate almost every spell).

And it's easy enough to have a creature with high AC, giving fighters the same negitive.

Or disarm someone, stopping their damage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities


Rust monsters
Flying creatures w/protection from normal missiles
A chasm
Webs
Combat through a grate
Etherealness

It's trivially easy to make an encounter to nullify or at least hamper most martial abilities.  Don't worry about it.
Furthermore, Damage Resistance is currently in the playtest rules.
With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities


Rust monsters
Flying creatures w/protection from normal missiles
A chasm
Webs
Combat through a grate
Etherealness

It's trivially easy to make an encounter to nullify or at least hamper most martial abilities.  Don't worry about it.



Expertise dice can counter or alleviate many of these. Depending on what maneuvers you have, you can spend them to get advantage with saving throws vs spells (web), vault over a chasm, counteract the disadvantage of attacking through a gate, etc.

There doesn't seem to be a simple "you can't do maneuvers or spend expertise dice in this room" effect.  But you can cast silence and prevent just about all spellcasting.


There doesn't seem to be a simple "you can't do maneuvers or spend expertise dice in this room" effect.  But you can cast silence and prevent just about all spellcasting.



Which means there's something wrong with spellcasting, not expertise dice.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
I'm a bit worried about the power and versatility of expertise dice and their attendant maneuvers in the context of balancing them vs. magic.

In most editions of D&D, magic and spellcasting has been significantly more powerful than mundane attacks.

True. The intended balancing factor was that each spell could be cast only once. 

To balance this out, there have been all sorts of anti-magic and anti-spellcasting features in the rules, ranging from silence spells and anti-magic zones to magic resistance and bad weather (yep, sometimes just rain would ruin your spells).

Nah, the arbitrary scewing in classic D&D was in no way limitted to casters.  Monsters hit only by magic weapons, rust monsters that ate your magic weapons, Protection from Normal Missles, Flying enemies, Invisible enemies, flying invisible enemies with Protection from Normal Missles who could be hit only by magic weapons....   

With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters.

Your concern is noted.  Laughable, but noted.  Look, ED are just a progressive damage mechanic.  As casters get higher level spells, they also get more damage.  Non-casters can give up their extra damage to do some cute little tricks, casters' spell have tremendous versatility at all levels.   The casters' top level spells are clearly their most important (just as in 3.5, when only you best spells had the highest DCs), but their lower level spells handily correspond to the non-casters option of giving up damage for versatility, the versatility of spells is just far greater than that of maneuvers.  

Don't worry, casters are still superior.

 

 

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With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities


Rust monsters
Flying creatures w/protection from normal missiles
A chasm
Webs
Combat through a grate
Etherealness

It's trivially easy to make an encounter to nullify or at least hamper most martial abilities.  Don't worry about it.



Expertise dice can counter or alleviate many of these. Depending on what maneuvers you have, you can spend them to get advantage with saving throws vs spells (web), vault over a chasm, counteract the disadvantage of attacking through a gate, etc.


It's trivially easy to make the chasm larger than you can jump with advantage (since advantage doesn't increase your maximum jump distance), and advantage is equal to only a +5 bonus anyway.  So make it a 40' chasm.  

And I said "grate", not gate.  It's not disadvantage; it's no weapon-based combat.  You're restricted to spells because the grate's holes are smaller than an arrow.

There doesn't seem to be a simple "you can't do maneuvers or spend expertise dice in this room" effect.


I just gave you five!

But you can cast silence and prevent just about all spellcasting.


In a 40'-diameter room.  Any character can move more than 40' with a single movement.  (And, unlike web, it doesn't require a saving throw to leave the silence.)
What magic is not super overpowered and can be matched by martial skill?

NOOOOOO....wait no...that is a GOOD thing. Death to the casters! 
Not exactly related to the thread (and I agree, it's probably not even close to being an issue), but spells don't scale nearly as well as expertise driven maneuvers right now. It wouldn't take much to pull them in line though.
I'm a bit worried about the power and versatility of expertise dice and their attendant maneuvers in the context of balancing them vs. magic.

In most editions of D&D, magic and spellcasting has been significantly more powerful than mundane attacks. To balance this out, there have been all sorts of anti-magic and anti-spellcasting features in the rules, ranging from silence spells and anti-magic zones to magic resistance and bad weather (yep, sometimes just rain would ruin your spells). Additionally there have been various groups or entities out there who regulate and/or oppose spellcasting (a guild of mages that prohibits non-scanctioned spellcasting within city limits, for example).

In these cases, it sucks to be a wizard; your abilities are either hindered or all-out nullified. And fighters and rogues would happily fight on, relieved that it is finally their turn to shine.

With the inclusion of the powerful damage and effects that expertise dice can provide I am worried that martial classes will out-perform spellcasters. There are no "anti-martial zones" that nullify fighter abilities, and I've never seen groups or creatures that can somehow detect when you use a martial stunt. 

Disarm, slow and cover are all common anti-martial zones. Places that don't allow you to enter armored like jails also are anti-martial zones.

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What magic is not super overpowered and can be matched by martial skill?

NOOOOOO....wait no...that is a GOOD thing. Death to the casters! 


Preferably with sharp, pointy objects.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Just so you know, the forums in general probably won't be very responsive to the argument that martials are overpowered. For one, many people have argued that spell casters are overpowered only to hear that balance isn't important, but only cool abilities are. Which, everyone agrees that ED are cool, so, the only argument for toning down martials is balance.

When it comes to balance though, spell casters have historically been seen as overpowered - hence anti magic to give the martials a chance to shine. Which means that many people here won't be likely to be sympathetic to claims that the wizard is underpowered.
However, it does seem like if we all agreed on what the wizard should be good at, (and what not), then this would go away. If the wizard is better than the thief at non combat, he should be worse than the thief at combat. That seems like balance.
I think it's also worth noting that martial type characters do not have access to anti-magic means of any sort. Silence, anti-magic zones, and the like are all under the control of other casters, whereas, spellcasters have a few options to outright negate a martial character.
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