Lazy Players

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You know the scene, your players expend all their resources dealing with a minor difficulty, then spend the next 24 hours waiting to rest. Why? Because they've used all their stuff and fear to proceed with their goodies.

The party goes half a mile, slaughter some innocent (yeah, right) kobolds expending all they have, then have to spend a day at the spot waiting for powers and talents to regenerate.

Why does this happen?

You let them.

The world doesn't stop just because somebody need's a rest.

The next time your players pull the old 5 Minute Workday routine, let their characters rest up for about on hour, then introduce something, or someone, to ruin their day. You don't have to kill the characters, you can embarass the players. Being told to pay ransom to a band of scraggly (but prepared) kobolds because you're not prepared should teach your players valuable lessons on conserving resources.

Remember, it's a world they adventure through, not a game they have pieces in. Worlds aren't interested in them having a fair time, so it helps for them to be cautious, and always hold a card in reserve.
One dagger is a plot point. A thousand daggers is inventory. Thank you for disrailing this thread.
It is standard, if players decide to set up camp in a dangerous area with out setting up watches, precautions, for monsters or enemies to show up.
It is standard, if players decide to set up camp in a dangerous area with out setting up watches, precautions, for monsters or enemies to show up.



Not for everybody. Some moderators are of the opinion that it is their job to make the experience easy on people so folks will let them run sessions. Yes, there are people that shallow.
One dagger is a plot point. A thousand daggers is inventory. Thank you for disrailing this thread.
The problem for the players is that there's no efficient way to deal with weaker threats while conserving their daily powers, without just grinding through them at a slower pace. Sure, for the in-game characters themselves, it's important to conserve their resources and use their swords and daggers whenever possible. But for the players, sitting there chipping away at HP with the same regular attacks and at-will spells gets boring really fast. It's trading real-life time for an in-game advantage. I would steer clear of promoting that kind of gameplay. 
I tend to let the adventure dictate the frequency at which the players can rest.   If they are in a relatively safe area, it is likely they can rest often.   Other times, they might go through two entire game-nights without getting a chance.   Variety challenges the players and helps to keep them from falling into a routine rut.

That said, very rarely do I let my players pull off any (IMO) cheese tactics like the 5WMD.   If they try, I will harass the sh*t out of them.   They quickly get the message and things get back to a normal flow.   Honestly, I haven't had any players try that garbage in years.
It is standard, if players decide to set up camp in a dangerous area with out setting up watches, precautions, for monsters or enemies to show up.



Not for everybody. Some moderators are of the opinion that it is their job to make the experience easy on people so folks will let them run sessions. Yes, there are people that shallow.

Although I'm sure there are DM's who go very easy on their players, I'm not aware of any in person or on these boards. 

What do you mean that there are folks that will "make the experience easy so folks will let them run sessions." 
Do you mean there are DM's who go easy on their players so that the DM can continue to run games?
Do you mean there are DM's who go easy on their players so the Players run the sessions instead of the DM?

Who are the shallow people?  Is it the DM?  Or are the players shallow?  Why is it shallow?
The problem for the players is that there's no efficient way to deal with weaker threats while conserving their daily powers, without just grinding through them at a slower pace. Sure, for the in-game characters themselves, it's important to conserve their resources and use their swords and daggers whenever possible. But for the players, sitting there chipping away at HP with the same regular attacks and at-will spells gets boring really fast. It's trading real-life time for an in-game advantage. I would steer clear of promoting that kind of gameplay. 



If they are chipping away at things with at-wills for basically any amount of time, please point them in the direction of Char-Op.
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The 5MWDs posts on the DDNext fora spread to here? ;) Not a big surprise considering how virulent they are over there, springing up every week with litterally hundreds of posts in each threat within hours ;) I would direct anybody interested in these discussion to those topics. They certainly show it is not nearly as simple as the OP makes it out to be.
If you want some other incentive, I've seen a few magic items that are decent at the start of the day but get really good if you save it for a milestone.  Find those items or make your own and then start giving those to the players.

You don't have to chastise or embaress the players and the players have a good motivation to push themselves. 
I'm rather lucky in that I have a fairly mature group of players. They will pursue a story through as many encounters as needed, even knowing they are burning through resources. The 4E milestones help somewhat, giving them back action points and a few have feats or powers that rely on milestones to work. So far it hasn't been an issue, and I am fairly liberal about letting the PCs rest when the players ask.

As long as we are all having fun, I don't see an issue.
The 5MWDs posts on the DDNext fora spread to here? ;)


I wondered the same thing when I realized what this thread was. And looking at this section, you'd think alignment wars have spilled onto here as well.

Anyway, the 5MWD isn't about players being lazy, if you ask me. It's about the players and DM not necessarily being on the same page. Expectations should be set at Session 0, so that this phenomenon doesn't occur; at the very least, it'll still occur, but everybody will be on board with the idea.

If you want some other incentive, I've seen a few magic items that are decent at the start of the day but get really good if you save it for a milestone.  Find those items or make your own and then start giving those to the players.

You don't have to chastise or embaress the players and the players have a good motivation to push themselves. 



Wow, I didn't realize this was such a problem for other groups.  I know my groups have had days where they rest often, but that's because they had a *really* tough day and I was pretty much fine with that.

If it's an issue you could also introduce rules to your world that makes it difficult to get an extended rest.  I had a world where the players could only get an extended rest when resting near a certain plant that  nullified certain effects going on in the world.

I know nothing about the OP's world but there's an infinite number of things you could put in your world to disturb the players rest beyond OMG bandits in your camp! that can punish them for taking too many extended rests. 
One thing we do is kinda interesting and works to keep the intensity of a dungeon going...

We use a concept of an 'Extended Encounter'...what I mean by that is this:

When the party enters a dungeon, they know there wont be any extended rests until they clear the dungeon or come upon a special room (if it's a really big dungeon). We treat the dungeon as kinda like 1 long encounter. They are free to take short rests whenever they want, however, they have to make a decision on if they really want to take a short rest...the reason is, we allow dailies to persist for the entire time they are in a dungeon (fire shield, rages, etc), however, when they take a short rest, they must make a saving throw. If they succeed, the daily power persists, if they fail, it goes away. So far this has worked really well...They are free to leave the dungeon to take an extended rest, but when they re-enter, they find that the enemy has been alerted to their presence and the encounter generally gets tougher or they run into more patrols....

we've never had a 5 MWD and they are conditioned well enough to know how to use their resources now...it took some close calls, but a few close calls helped them learn tactics a lot better. 
I think it has to do with expectations and what's presented to the players.  Its funny really.  Sometimes it's a symptom of a certain type of player needing more from the game's plots.  Sometimes it's just one guy.  Sometimes it's multiple players.

I've summed it up in this graphic though:


Lazy Players
Not that they really sit around in diapers, but just as they cannot always comprehend why we would expect a perfectly reasonable elf not to always want to jump INTO danger, neither can we understand why they would expect us to not provide dangerous encounters.  Many times, it's the same situation where the players get mad when you tell them to roll up a back up character because you WANT them to die heroically, not of old age.


I've found that if you can increase your out of game banter (on a yahoogroup or google group), that more will start happening in the game.

Get used to "reading" your players to see what else you can throw into a game.  Try out a couple widely varying scenario plots (you know, the ones that start with murder and end in mystery solved  compared to the ones that start with the players shipwrecked on Isle of Dread).

In any case, if you're recognizing the problem, that's the first step

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One thing we do is kinda interesting and works to keep the intensity of a dungeon going...

We use a concept of an 'Extended Encounter'...what I mean by that is this:

When the party enters a dungeon, they know there wont be any extended rests until they clear the dungeon or come upon a special room (if it's a really big dungeon). We treat the dungeon as kinda like 1 long encounter. They are free to take short rests whenever they want, however, they have to make a decision on if they really want to take a short rest...the reason is, we allow dailies to persist for the entire time they are in a dungeon (fire shield, rages, etc), however, when they take a short rest, they must make a saving throw. If they succeed, the daily power persists, if they fail, it goes away. So far this has worked really well...They are free to leave the dungeon to take an extended rest, but when they re-enter, they find that the enemy has been alerted to their presence and the encounter generally gets tougher or they run into more patrols....

we've never had a 5 MWD and they are conditioned well enough to know how to use their resources now...it took some close calls, but a few close calls helped them learn tactics a lot better. 



That's an interesting idea but what do you do about the players who are playing classes without a lot of persistent effects in their dailies?

For example, my rogue had two dailes-- Bloodbath and Spinning Blade Leap.  What happens after I use either of those and what happens when I use a short rest?
I deal with lazy players just about every time. It's in the nature of a player to hedge the bets every time without working too hard at it.
To me it depends alot on if its a public game or not. When I DM encounters or LFR or store sponsered mods there is a set time to start and finish and you never know who is playing what or how many players will be at your table.
Those I run simple...full health and surges, clean shaven and well fed at the start and thats it, no rest of any kind allowed.
It gives a bonus to those that carry over from last week in the matter of free heal up every week but it also makes makes all encounters into dailys.
Is what it is...sometimes the DM is lazy as well. Trying to keep track of everything with a player pool over 15 and 2& 1/2 DMs is not going to happen.

The campaign I run is a differant story, they are even lazyer! Never keeping track of surges, power use, HP or whatnot each week.

But since its the same 4 players every time I get to railroad the storyline (in emails and web post) between each meet, then when we sit at the table they all have what I tell them they have. They seem to prefer that then keeping track and to be honest it makes for a ever changing feel of drama.
The days when they start off with only 1 heal, a single potion, and no dailys they all pull deep and put a effort into the night and all I had to do was dumb the monsters down a touch. Or if I read the mood they are looking for fireworks I give a full reset and toss half the monster manual at them let them rack up a body count.

D&D is not about creating a imaginary world made real with loads of complication. It's about getting a group if peeps at the table to have fun interacting with imaginations. If you sometimes need to dumb it down to a rule set no more challenging then monopoly then so be it. Most players prefer to have things the easy way...so do most DMs.
Once in a wile you get a tight group of friends the want the complete immersion and they are easy to spot and you give it to them. You can have alot of fun yourself as a DM even with a table of OPs.

But even the Great Mr Perkins gets loose with the numbers now and then.
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