Throw Anything, RAW/RAI?

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3.5

The rule:

" It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

The feat: (Complete Warrior)

"Throw Anything: You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet."

My question:  The feat states only that it takes away the -4 penalty. Did they mean, "just that", or did they intend more?  I of course know that there is no 3.5 support.  But do you think they meant that you get to keep your threat/crit range as well?  And much more importantly, did they mean for you to be able to do it as a standard action with "Anything"?  My specific is here, that a player wants to be able to do this, throwing his two-bladed sword "spear-style".  Depending on your replies, I may allow him to then deem it a "hurled weapon" and allow him to put the returning weapon ability on it.

TIA
Neue 
Based on the way the "Really Throw Anything" (which modifies Throw Anything for its effect) is described for the sample Hulking Hurler, I would have to conclude that the feat permits the normal critical range of the weapon to be used.  The details of the ability in that example make no mention of a change in the critical range, and I would expect such a mention to be present in that kind of ready-to-use example.  I know that's pretty thin, but even thin evidence is better than none when the feat itself gives no real guidance.

For the specific case you described, though, I do have to wonder what happens if you have the returning enchantment on only one head of a double weapon.

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Based on the way the "Really Throw Anything" (which modifies Throw Anything for its effect) is described for the sample Hulking Hurler, I would have to conclude that the feat permits the normal critical range of the weapon to be used.  The details of the ability in that example make no mention of a change in the critical range, and I would expect such a mention to be present in that kind of ready-to-use example.  I know that's pretty thin, but even thin evidence is better than none when the feat itself gives no real guidance.

For the specific case you described, though, I do have to wonder what happens if you have the returning enchantment on only one head of a double weapon.

I thought of that too Slagger;  When I asked him, he said he'd only put it on the one end that he planned on using as the "spear-head".  Then our conversation degraded into laughing about the other end flying back and impaling him, in fits of laughter at the visual...
I might have him do some sort of Dex check to see if he catches the weapon.

I will immediately report any Phishers or Lonely Hearts Scam Artists.

Well, we can forget the whole debate.  We talked a bit more, and looked at the magic weapon special ability wording, Throwing:

"This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use."

And pretty much decided, "Oh, it gains a range increment, thus it is considered a normal hurled weapon, NO PROBLEM".

Then he immediately next realized on re-reading the returning ability that he'd be bereft of his weapon for the entire round prior to his next turn, thus losing both his greater two weapon defense shield bonus and any Attack of Oppurtunity option.  He said, "forget it!".
Actualy there is a weapon crystal in magic item compendium which has the returning quality, with the add added benefit of the weapon not only returning in that round, but also to the spot you stand in.
I take it your question was answered.  If the Throw Anything talent gives "all" proficient melee weapons a 10' range increment and lets them be thrown I don't see how it changes anything else.  This would mean keeping the crit range.  Of course thrown weapons have that big issue of disarming yourself voluntarily.
 
if he had the Quick Draw feat then he could throw the weapon and then draw another to replace it, thus preventing himself from being disarmed.
3.5

The rule:

" It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet."

The feat: (Complete Warrior)

"Throw Anything: You can throw a melee weapon you are proficient with as if it were a ranged weapon. The range increment of weapons used in conjunction with this feat is 10 feet."

My question:  The feat states only that it takes away the -4 penalty. Did they mean, "just that", or did they intend more?  I of course know that there is no 3.5 support.  But do you think they meant that you get to keep your threat/crit range as well?  And much more importantly, did they mean for you to be able to do it as a standard action with "Anything"?  My specific is here, that a player wants to be able to do this, throwing his two-bladed sword "spear-style".  Depending on your replies, I may allow him to then deem it a "hurled weapon" and allow him to put the returning weapon ability on it.

TIA
Neue 

in this case become a Improvised weapon


Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
"Looks like Oma's wrong again!"
The rules of the feat supersede the general rule.
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
"Looks like Oma's wrong again!"
The rules of the feat supersede the general rule.

the feat only let you use the weapon as a throwing weapon without the -4 of use as improvised (the weapon become appropriate to throw).

but as the DM you can use the variant rule "weapon Equivalencies" and use the two-handed blade as a spear in the throwing
 
but still you only thrown only 1 time per round.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The Feat supercedes the rules for improvised weapons etitrely, the weapon is thrown just like any other thrown weapon (daggers, spears etc)

Yes, you are limited to only one thrown attack, this is correct, unless you have the Quick Draw Feat which states that

A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks

However the size and bulk of the weapon in question will limit how many you could have available to draw. It might be conceiveable to have 1 great sword in hand, one in the left hip, one on the right hip and 2 on the back.

However by the time you have 5 or 6 attacks the costs of that many magic greatswords (or at least that many with anything decent for magic enhancements) would be prohibative. And what would you do for the next round when you are out of swords, is an issue.
 
My character has an efficient quiver and the feat quickdraw.  He carries. and can throw, up to 6 greatswords and 18 longswords, and he can do so from inside a pit of acid because they don't need to save since I'm holding them.
wow if he going to attack in this way he need use a oil dispenser attached to use it at the time of drawing at high levels to use magical attacks or a lot of returning weapons, very costly build

but like the entangle i think that the feat take as a fact that the throwing weapon is small or smaller

i think this going to work like this
as example a medium size creature doing 4 throwings of gread swords is hard to believe then for two-weapon you can attack as standar (like a one-handed without the feat) and for medium free action and with the special of that a two-handed weapon that can grip from middle like the two-blade do it as free as well.

¬¬ you never save again total immersion.


Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
@Neue: Subtle!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Well NeueRegal's original rule quote is accurate but it is also incomplete which makes it misleading.  Even if you have Throw Anything and Quick Draw you can NOT throw multiple greatswords in a round.  The paragraph structure may be poor but there is nothing to say that a two-handed thrown weapon requiring a full round action only applies to IMPROVISED thrown weapons.  Of course that would also indicate that all thrown weapons would use the given crital information and range as well so it is definitely a poorly worded paragraph.

If you consider that Crossbows are generally "one shot per round" weapons (or slower) it makes sense that throwing a big two-handed weapon is still going to be a "one shot per round" event.  I know Rapid Reload lets a Light Crossbow gain multiple attack like Quick Draw should for light/one-handed thrown weapons but the bigger weapons still don't get used more then once per round.
 
StevenO, I would point out that there are 2-handed weapons, such as the spear, that can be thrown without it being a full-round action. One could take a move action then throw a spear, or if they have the attacks they could make multiple melee attacks and then throw the spear for the final attack. That rule applies specifically only to improvised weapons, and with this the weapon is no longer improvised.

The DM however is free to apply restrictions on bulk for theQuickdraw, saying for exampe that only one blade on each hip could be effectively used like this, and the sword can't be effectively quick draw for throwing off a back scabard, however I think the cost of that many weapons (especially magic ones) plusmore or less being out of ammo so quick, would make this more of a one-off strategy. Especially with a 10ft range and a +2 difficulty per 10 ft, that woudl be an expensive and likely innefective assault.

It would be funny though, especially if they made an Intimidate roll as they spazzed and threw all their swords at the enemy

I'm just playing devil's advocate here and like I said the paragraph is poorly written.  Now even though you may "throw" a spear with one hand you may still need "two-hands" to do it properly as you use the other hand to balance things out.  The problem with the paragraph is with the line left out.  Here it is in it's entirety from the SRD:


Thrown Weapons

Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridentsshuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.



The problem is that the entire paragraph is taling about thrown weapons and doesn't do a good job distinguishing that some parts may only apply to other sentences.  If there was a paragraph break after the second sentence thing would be a lot clearer (at least to me, there are people who still wouldn't see the difference) as the paragraph subject of "improvised" thrown weapon instead of just thrown weapons in general.

I fully agree that enhantment level of all that "big melee based ranged weaponry" would make this problematic at high levels.  Throwing away expensive weapons isn't usually a good strategy although I really could see many melee type characters who's "walking around" weapon is actually something that could be thrown before breaking out their primary weapon while they close the distance.


 
 
from RC, this only apply in weapon not designed
now the feat lack the -4 penalty and give you 10 fts of Range but not make the weapon "designed"
(Never say as Throwing weapon only say as Range weapon maybe like Javelins)
then you can only throw 1 light or onehanded
Now with Quick Draw let you make more that one single throw

at last if TA feat is like a range weapon

Rule of Throwing Weapon
Weapons that are hurled from the hand and require no ammunition are thrown weapons. The Strength modifier on damage rolls applies to thrown weapons except for splash
weapons (see page 143).

It’s possible to throw a melee weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (one that doesn’t have
a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on the table where its statistics are delineated), but a creature that does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. (ignored with the feat)

Throwing a light or onehanded weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown is a standard action, and
throwing a two-handed weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown is a full-round action.

Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.  Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
f
Rule of Throwing Weapon
Weapons that are hurled from the hand and require no ammunition are thrown weapons. The Strength modifier on damage rolls applies to thrown weapons except for splash
weapons (see page 143).

It’s possible to throw a melee weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (one that doesn’t have
a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on the table where its statistics are delineated), but a creature that does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. (ignored with the feat)

Throwing a light or onehanded weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown is a standard action, and
throwing a two-handed weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown is a full-round action.

Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit.  Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.


Can someone else confirm this wording, especially the added text that Oma has highlighted?  That would certainly fix issues with quickdrawing two-handed weapons to use for multiple attacks.  That last paragraph is still a sore subject if it applies to are Thrown Weapons which it actually appears like it should.
 
¬¬ Rule Compendium pag 150

Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The Feat says "This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A melee weapon crafted with this ability gains a range increment of 10 feet and can be thrown by a wielder proficient in its normal use."  So the added Range makes it a thrown weapon.


As for the rules Oma quotes, that is correct a 2-handed weapon not designed to be thrown is a Full-Round Action.

However, I highlighted "Not designed" for an important reason, this feat changes this so the weapons are no longer improvised, with proper training it is no longer an improvised weapon. Improvised thrown weapons already have a range of 10, so a feat giving them a range of 10 is pointless.

The feat requires one to already be proficient in the weapon's use (and thus understand the balance etc of the weapon)  Throwing it is no longer improvised, it becomes a weapon with the range of 10' and falls under the rules for any such weapon (Spears, Daggers Etc)

However I do think the DM would be wise to call limits, should they get someone with the Monkey Grip Feat tossing bucket fulls of Large GreatSwords around the battlefield as being too outlandish and silly, as opposed to someone who is just looking for added versatility and coolness.

Attack an enemy, Cleave to attack the next enemy and then Throw his sword at the enemy attacking the party wizard, Draw the second sword... That would be especially cool with the Conan type character or Barbarian with a GreatAxe.
Attack an enemy, Cleave to attack the next enemy and then Throw his sword at the enemy attacking the party wizard, Draw the second sword... That would be especially cool with the Conan type character or Barbarian with a GreatAxe.



Exactly.  Another scene that comes to mind is in the movie Ladyhawke, at the end when the Capt. Navarre throws his greatsword through the evil Bishop.  I also recall Tom Cruise (Last Samurai?) throwing his katana (bastard sword in our game) through an enemy's head, both of them mounted and at a gallop.  Now that's cool!
At least it looks like my issue with action requirements to throw weapons is somewhere.  I wonder why they have the "isn't designed to be thrown" text from the Rule Compilation didn't make it into the SRD.  It is still a poorly structured paragraph as the last line could be said to apply to all thrown weapons although I guess you could go with the specific range increments/critical stats for listed weapons superceeding those.  It still makes me wonder a bit about how a person throws a two-handed weapon.

I've never questioned that the Throw Anything feat turn all melee weapons into thrown weapons by explicitly giving them 10' range increments. 
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