CharOp Question/challenge: At what level can a character go 1-on-1 with a solo?

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CharOp Question/challenge: At what level can a character go 1-on-1 with a solo?

Hi there. I'm a long time lurker, first question poster.

Sorry in advance if this question has been answered before - based on practical tactics and/or pure DPR, at which level & class can a character go 1-on-1 with an at-level solo (post-MM3 monster math)?

Other parameters:
Estimated rounds to kill solo: about round 5 (give or take a round)
Default solo: Young red dragon, 332 hp.
Fighting venue: An almost featureless 30 by 30 squares arena with a low ceiling of 8 squares high, very little DT and cover.
It is possible at every level. Usually in one round. The class will  keep changing though, depending on what you're exploiting.
Though lets be honest, its entirely dependent on the solo, and entirely pointless in game since a solo is supposed to be coupled with terrain/minions/standards to make a battle ineteresting and challenging for a group, not a single PC.
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
Speaking from practical experience and assuming no one-round-kill gimmicks, level 18 was the earliest I managed this. Prior to that I managed to duel several solos successfully, but not kill them - whereas at that level I managed to deplete the solo's entire HP stock alone, with it only surviving because the DM decided to have him spend multiple healing surges (and thus gain an extra 450 HP...)
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
what's the lowest level character that can solo a young red dragon and expect to win most of the time?
With what chance of success?  Any character can go solo against any monster; and can, with enough luck, beat it (with the exception of those epic monsters who are immune: anyone below level 21), and conversely, any character can go solo against any monster, and with enough ill luck, be killed.

This is a meaningless question without more parameters.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part. The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight. CB != rules source.
With what chance of success?  Any character can go solo against any monster; and can, with enough luck, beat it (with the exception of those epic monsters who are immune: anyone below level 21), and conversely, any character can go solo against any monster, and with enough ill luck, be killed.

This is a meaningless question without more parameters.



50/50 is fine
That...wasn't helpful
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!

1. make a character of any level you want and with items worth no more than the char-op standard for that level (no consumables)

2. have that character fight the level 7 young red dragon from monster vault

3. if that character wins at least half the time, it satisfies the requirements

the lowest level character that can do that wins




Perma-stealth human @ level 2 probably could.

Unkillable revenant kick in next around level 6.

Then there will be a few other tricks by 11.

Possibly damage Nova it by 16.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

More parameters.. Let's see... 
How about: Just based on DPR alone, assuming fighting in an almost featureless 30 by 30 squares arena with a low ceiling of 8 squares high, very little DT and cover. Young red dragon sounds about right.

Perma-stealth human @ level 2 probably could.

Unkillable revenant kick in next around level 6.

Then there will be a few other tricks by 11.

Possibly damage Nova it by 16.

Mellored, could you post the perma stealth human level 2 build?
Why are we basing is solely on DPR...and Permastealth isn't that hard to take out. Just put a monster with at-will blasts and an aura in. 
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
I'm dubious of that permastealth build, since it has to pelt the dragon for _so many turns_ and it only has to hit once with the breath, or miss three times.

Even ignoring the fact that the dragon will probably actually shred the rogue with melee attacks, even without the autodamage and not knowing the exact square you're in of the breath.

Sure, it might get a little silly with the dragon basically doing two minor actions to make perception checks, then doing a charge (made the check, the rogue's going to get lower than a 31 Stealth often) or readied move or charge (failed the check, just going adjacent to the rogue when they fire).

The revenant is also not unkillable, since the dragon still deals 20-30 damage with that breath weapon, and 17 with the bite, and resist 10 all is _great_, but not that great. The better trick there is that a level 6 character can probably have enough mojo without being a revenant to pull off the damage under the right circumstances. Dominated storm pillar to make it run around for 10 ticks kinda thing. 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
I'm also curious about basing the choices on DPR. If I were to duel a Solo, I'd probably count more on a devastating nova than flat out DPR.
All right. Let's focus on nova for now. How low level would it take to kill a Young red? In 5 rounds or less.
Theres gotta be some storm pillar abuse or something
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
At level 7 you can do it with a Thri-Kreen Ranger|Figther, by using Villain's Menace and Snarling Wolf Stance, I think. But the real problem here is tactic. A DM can make you fail in so many ways it's not just a matter of damage output.
Theres gotta be some storm pillar abuse or something

Bard MC Wizard for one/encounter use of Storm Pillar+level 5 dominate daily. You need to hit to get the Dominate, but if you do the Dragon will die, even if you have to pelt it a couple more times with encounter powers. That trick is basically available to anyone with a dominate, the stat pre-reqs for Wizard MC aren't onerous if you're building around it. So Warlock, Druid in Heroic. Wasn't there a theme that actually gave a Dominate now? Unless I am not remembering that right, but that'd be... everyone.
I thought Storm Pillar was 1/turn?
10/10 Would Flame Again: An Elite Paladin|Warlock The Elemental Man (or Woman): A Genasi Handbook The Warlord, Or How to Wield a Barbarian One-Handed The Bookish Barbarian Fardiz: RAI is fairly clear, but RAZ is different That's right. Rules According to Zelink!
It does have 332 hp, so... not _everyone_. But yes, 10 damage instances from Storm Pillar should carve off 1/3 of the hp for most characters (more for some, but again it's hard to get the right pieces together). So... now the rest?
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Perma-stealth human @ level 2 probably could.

Unkillable revenant kick in next around level 6.

Then there will be a few other tricks by 11.

Possibly damage Nova it by 16.

Mellored, could you post the perma stealth human level 2 build?

Human rogue|exectuioner, or rogue|warlock

1: Hybrid talent: cunning sneak
Bonus: MC executioner or warlock
2: The shadow walk feat.

Now anytime you move more then 3 squares, you can hide. 

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I'm dubious of that permastealth build, since it has to pelt the dragon for _so many turns_ and it only has to hit once with the breath, or miss three times.

Even ignoring the fact that the dragon will probably actually shred the rogue with melee attacks, even without the autodamage and not knowing the exact square you're in of the breath.

Sure, it might get a little silly with the dragon basically doing two minor actions to make perception checks, then doing a charge (made the check, the rogue's going to get lower than a 31 Stealth often) or readied move or charge (failed the check, just going adjacent to the rogue when they fire).

The revenant is also not unkillable, since the dragon still deals 20-30 damage with that breath weapon, and 17 with the bite, and resist 10 all is _great_, but not that great. The better trick there is that a level 6 character can probably have enough mojo without being a revenant to pull off the damage under the right circumstances. Dominated storm pillar to make it run around for 10 ticks kinda thing. 

I'd give a level 2 perma-stealth 50/50.  I'm sure it would loose to anyone with spamable AOE's, or damage aura's, but a level 2 dragon can't spam.  And you are throwing out striker damage.  Especially if you add an encounter long damage buff daily (an assassins poision).  And with a little optimal spacing, he's have to minor->move->charge.  Giving him only 1 shot to spot you per turn.

The revenant will get better results.  Yes it would still take damage, but +9 to death saves means it will have a 50% chance to surge each turn it needs it.  So it would win, but it will cost most of it's surges.



Oh, and a pixie beastmaster could beat melee anything at level 1.  But dragons fly.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Hmm, it's a level 7 dragon not a level 2 I think. But maybe I skimmed too quickly.

A level 1 or 2 solo is far more beatable. 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Hmm, it's a level 7 dragon not a level 2 I think. But maybe I skimmed too quickly.

A level 1 or 2 solo is far more beatable. 

I thought the challenge was an at-level solo.

But yea, a level 2 perma-stealth won't get 50/50 on level 7.  Level 5 perma-stealth perhaps, when you can get skill focus (stealth), +2 stealth from a theme, +2 stealth item bonus, and a second daily to go along with you.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I once soloed a solo with an 8th level Warlock|Paladin. Eldritch Strike+Sorc King Pack let me slide the solo around, then I could move and get the benefit of Shadow Walk etc. I had stupid High AC so the solo could barely scratch me. The rest of the party was fighting the other solo...and I killed mine before they offed their's.
@MelloRed: Yes, an at-level solo....

Thanks for all the input so far. Always good to hear from you guys. 
hmm ... Solos have a general +5 going on with a bunch of things.
If they game maths assume a PC has that +2 to hit built in and
(I'm not sure that's a safe assumption) should beat a reasonable
monster in say ~5 rounds, the PC would need to find some of the
other +5s needed to draw even and do double damage.

Any way to combine a DPRx2 build with a Penalty stacker (post stunlock nerfs) ?
Either one is easy ; doing both is ??

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

Solo's do NOT have a defense increase as of the July 2010 DMG update, while any Solo's published before then will by nature have higher defenses, they are also typically horribly underpowered (some NADs are lower than L+10, lower than average Initiative, only 1 attack per round with little to no non-standard attacks) or horribly overpowered (some NADs are higher than L+16, poorly written rules allowing for inordinate numbers of attacks, flat immunity to common conditions, effects that are significantly worse than average for that level) or some rediculous mix of the two that results in something that's easy for some parties but TPKs others; without significant DME (which basically means "rewritten") they shouldn't be considered relevant for any comparison.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Solo's do NOT have a defense increase as of the July 2010 DMG update, while any Solo's published before then will by nature have higher defenses, they are also typically horribly underpowered (some NADs are lower than L+10, lower than average Initiative, only 1 attack per round with little to no non-standard attacks) or horribly overpowered (some NADs are higher than L+16, poorly written rules allowing for inordinate numbers of attacks, flat immunity to common conditions, effects that are significantly worse than average for that level) or some rediculous mix of the two that results in something that's easy for some parties but TPKs others; without significant DME (which basically means "rewritten") they shouldn't be considered relevant for any comparison.

ALl right. I've clarified my initial question. Post MM3 monster math, At-level solo
I'd still say pixie on a raptor at level 1 can go 70/30.  30% having a way to hit it.  This will go down as you level though you have nearly full resources to pick up another trick at some point.  Like going with a nova ranger.

Perma-stealth at level 2.  Though it would be a close 50/50.  This probably won't change much as you level.  The 1/2 damage boon will give you a nice bump, but enemies get more aura's, aoe's, and special senses.  You also need to put a good bit of resources into it to stay hidden.

Revenant around level 6.  90/10 being able to resist and surge though the majority of things.  This will go up as you'll have resources to put into other stuff, like stormhawk vengence, battlecrazed weapons, and restless dead.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I think only _maybe_ a couple very selective revenant builds could stand up to a solo at level 6. They just don't really get their cool tricks til later on, and lots of solos have sufficient burst, whereas the revenant won't if he's invested any resources into being functional at not dying.

At 11+ it's a little easier. At 16+ I'll concede it's a different story entirely.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
I think only _maybe_ a couple very selective revenant builds could stand up to a solo at level 6. They just don't really get their cool tricks til later on, and lots of solos have sufficient burst, whereas the revenant won't if he's invested any resources into being functional at not dying.

At 11+ it's a little easier. At 16+ I'll concede it's a different story entirely.

It would take a long time but i think it would go like....

100%->75%->50%->25%-> 0%-> -10% (resist) -> surge.   Each surge should give you 3-5 turns.  If you do .25 KPR you'll burn 5 surges.

You could lab it if you want, but IMO, unless the solo get's a good streak of hits/crits/recharges and you a poor streak of death saves the revenant should win.  He probably won't have the surges to do it 2x in a day, but it shoudln't have an issue with 1 solo.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Hmm. At level 6 you've got about 50 some hp. A L6 solo should do, say, 28 damage per round. 

Let's say you're a revenant warlock|executioner, hp 56, AC 20, R19, resist 10 once 0 or lower, +9 to death saves (I've no idea how you get there at 6th level without gimping the rest of your PC), and you're +13 vs. AC for 4d8 + 10. Plus 2 poison, cause you used that for the encounter, sure. so +13 for 30 damage, 1 AP that you use when you miss (or ready) so you still get the curse+execution damage.

Looking at the only L6 post-math solos -
Tembo: 280 hp, AC 20, 2 turns per round, +11A for 2d10+3 and a followup +11A for 2d10+3 & -2 att, Aura of half healing while bloodied.
Young Blue Dragon: 296 hp, AC 20, free +11R/2d10+5 miss half, R56 +11R 3d8+8 miss half, melee +11A 4d6+5 or 2x2d6+5 (also autowins due to ranged attacks if it wants)
Both also have autodamage auras that hasten the PC down to 0, but are ignored at 0 or lower.

So, base PC hits 65% of the time for 30, crits 5% of the time for 51, for 22 DPR roughly.

Tembo: 55% chance to hit for 14 avg damage above 0, and 4.35 avg damage (2d10-7) 0 or lower, 5% chance to crit for 24 or 14, plus spawning an extra attack for same damage. DPT 14.24 >0, 4.95 <= 0. Twice per round. 

DPR >0: 28.48 + 5 or 10 Aura.
DPR for 0 or lower: 9.9 
So, round 1 is 100% -> 40 or 31% (depending on 5 or 10 aura damage). 
PC has 45% chance to surge back up to 14 (7 while tembo is bloodied) hp.

PC DPR is 22, though reduced by the Tembo being invisible a round, insubstantial from time to time, and the Tembo having a 84% chance to give the PC -2 to attack. Increased by having an action point. PC needs 14+ rounds to drop the Tembo. There is a good 50% chance PC is dead in round 5, with about a 55% chance it dies every other round after that.

Blue Dragon: 
Free attack per turn - 60% 16 >0, 6.1 under 0, 5% crit for 26 >0, 16 under 0, 35% 8 >0, 3.05 under 0. (D 14.9 / 5.99)
Breath - 75% 21.5 >0, 11.5 <=0, 5% crit for 32 >0, 22 <= 0, 20% 10.75 >0, 5.75 <=0. (D 19.9 / 10.9)
Bite - 70% 19 >0, ~9 <=0, 5% crit 29 >0, 19 <= 0. (D 14.75 / 7.25) 
Claw (allx2) - 70% 12 >0, 2.28 <= 0, 5% crit 17 >0, 7 <= 0. (D 9.25 / 1.95)

DPR >0: 29.72 (Free 13.7 + Std (18.26 / 3 + 14.9 * 2/3)) 
DPR <=0: 12.8 (Free 5.53 + Std (10.01 / 3 + 5.9 * 2/3))

PC needs about 13 rounds to drop the Blue Dragon. 
Dragon drops the PC in round 2, at which point it probably AP and instinctive finishes the PC off, but basically we're back to the PC having a 55% chance to die every other round. Slightly murkier since the dragon has higher under 0 DPR but doesn't halve healing when bloodied.

(Reminder PC automatically loses to non-tofu dragon) 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Why are the PC defences so low?
Oops, fixed. Also, as a note, I'm not giving CA for when the revenant is dazed (frequently) or prone (occasionally for the dragon).

The important part was more to show that new L6 solos are designed to do 2-4 attacks of 14+ damage per round, so resist 10 only does so much.

At level 7, the red dragon's 30 point breath can take a revenant clear from low hit point to dead.

Needing to burn magic items and feats on Revenant seriously crimp your style in all kinds of ways. I'm pretty sure the revenant ends up doing less damage than I listed too, since I assumed 1-2 feats and a +2 weapon, which may be needed for superior will are available.
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director
Solo's do NOT have a defense increase as of the July 2010 DMG update, while any Solo's published before then will by nature have higher defenses, they are also typically horribly underpowered (some NADs are lower than L+10, lower than average Initiative, only 1 attack per round with little to no non-standard attacks) or horribly overpowered (some NADs are higher than L+16, poorly written rules allowing for inordinate numbers of attacks, flat immunity to common conditions, effects that are significantly worse than average for that level) or some rediculous mix of the two that results in something that's easy for some parties but TPKs others; without significant DME (which basically means "rewritten") they shouldn't be considered relevant for any comparison.

ALl right. I've clarified my initial question. Post MM3 monster math, At-level solo



Whoops ... Zathris = I was remembering Thanksgiving dinner from three years ago (burp).

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

You may be right. I know i've done it with some solo's (i then sinced took of the belt, it kinds ruined the fun) but they may not have been MM3 ones.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So, to summarize so far, a post-MM3 at-level solo has a higher chance of finishing off the optimized revenant than the other way round. Okay, IMHO they _did_ fix it.

Nice. Kudos to all those who provided input so far.
It's hard to say without running the numbers with a full build.

Though i think keithric missed the battlecrazed weapon and blood thread armor (which also gives +2 to death saves). Also, it should be running armor of agyth (or something) and a encounter long poision. Possibly a third daily.

But again i'll just give it a mabey.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I used a +9 to death saves, which was the # you gave. And I gave it an encounter long poison. And I gave it more damage than I expected it had the means to obtain, in terms of treasure or feats. Mostly just to avoid such objections. 

Battlecrazed would increase the damage by 1d6-1, but decrease the attack bonus by 1. Bloodthread is cloth only, so would result in -2 AC until you were bloodied. No real change that I can see. Armor of Agathys would help against the tembo, though not against the blue dragon. It would help some against a red dragon a level later, though the red dragon invites other problems like losing turns to being grabbed at reach 2.

It is pretty possible to custom make characters to defeat specific solos, though. Pick the right resistances and triggers. Especially at L10 to just give _anyone_ resist 10 for the encounter. 
Keith Richmond Living Forgotten Realms Epic Writing Director