An idea for flurry

Edit:


I've given this a rethink and I think using the combination mechanic could still be really fun, but based on feedback and exploring the monk in the playtest further I think maybe flurry is OK. Maybe it's not really as exciting as I'd like, but it's fine and safe and does its job.


However.


I still like the combination strike mechanic and I'd like to flesh it out - not necessarily for the monk, though I do like the image of a monk doing combos. After some number crunching, I think this will be better:


Before the attack roll is made, the player has to announce the combo and how many hits are in it. The player then spends a number of expertise dice equal to the number of hits in the combo -1 (1 for a 2 hit combo, 3 for a 4 hit combo).


The player then rolls however many attack rolls as they have in the combo, noting which die is the finishing move's attack roll.


If all the dice hit, the combo is successful and they deal an unmodified 1d4 for each successful hit that led up to the finish move (1d4 for a 2 hit combo, 3d4 for a 4 hit combo) and a number of expertise dice equal to the total number of attacks made (2 for a 2 hit combo, 4 for a 4 hit combo) + your primary damage stat in damage.


Critical hits are still critical hits and apply to the individual attacks that crit normally.


So a 4 hit combo will have a 41% chance of success vs AC 15 at lvl 10 (based on an 80% chance for each individual die to hit or crit [75% hit + 5% crit], so .8^4). And do an average of 32.925 damage including crits.  A 2 hit combo has a 64% chance of success and would do an average 17.425 damage including crits. 


To be honest, that feels too low but it does have a pretty high chance of succeeding.



Nothing wrong with flurry the way it is.  If you want monks to do more damage, then bump their dice, weapon size, or even give them a second attack.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

I...have no idea what you're proposing.  I read through it, twice, and I don't understand how it works.  I don't understand how I would decide how many dice to spend, I don't understand how those dice translate to damage, and I don't understand how I determine whether to spend the dice on FoB or save them for something else.

This seems needlessly complicated.  As best I can tell, this is a convoluted way of getting to Deadly Strike-level damage, only with more intermediate decision steps and conditionals.  The current FoB is just "roll handful of XD and d20s" at its simplest at-the-table.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I...have no idea what you're proposing.  I read through it, twice, and I don't understand how it works.  I don't understand how I would decide how many dice to spend, I don't understand how those dice translate to damage, and I don't understand how I determine whether to spend the dice on FoB or save them for something else.

This seems needlessly complicated.



You roll an attack roll. You hit. You then decide whether to do 1d6+dex damage -or- an unmodified expertise die for damage. If you choose to roll the expertise die, you roll another attack roll. If you hit, you can then decide to roll 1d6+dex+expertise die in damage -or- you can roll an unmodified expertise die.


You keep going until you decide the flurry to end, you miss, or you run out of expertise dice.


There's nothing complicated about it, sorry if I'm not explaining it very well.

Ok, here's where I don't understand what happens:

I roll an attack roll.
I hit.
I then decide whether to do 1d6+dex damage or an expertise die.
I choose to roll the expertise die.
I roll an attack roll.
I miss.
How much damage do I do?

I also don't understand how this addresses what your issue was in the other thread, that of not having the flurry hits feel like "real" attacks if they're only the die.  They still seem to only be the die, because you're still only doing 1d6+dex+XD damage if you hit with them all, same as the current one.  But you are requiring me to do a lot more conditional estimation and resolution, which is just going to make my turn longer but not actually lead to any more meaningful choices.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

If you miss, you only do the 1 expertise die from the previous hit. That's the end of the flurry; you gambled and you lost.


The thing I like about this is the most meaningful attack is at the end and the attacks that don't feel meaningful are given meaning by making the final, most meaningful attack more powerful.


At that point, I don't mind doing weak attacks because I know it combos up to something big, and I have the gambler's rush of having to decide when my streak is up and deal the finishing move or double down for an even bigger finish.

So...

Why do you want Flurry to do less damage than current?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
I have the gambler's rush of having to decide when my streak is up and deal the finishing move or double down for an even bigger finish.

That seems more like something chaotic then lawful.  Monks are lawful.

Perhaps use build-up-damage-gamble for a barbarian?

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Well the maximum damage potential of flurry like this at lvl 10 is 1d6+5+6d10. That's a truckload more.

But you have to make a hit streak of 4, which is hard. It's much easier to get a hit streak of 2 (1d6+5+2d10), but even that can fly in your face.


It's just more fun. The specific damage dealt isn't so important, but the notion that a hit streak yields a really powerful finish move is a really fun idea.



I don't really wanna go down the alignment road but monks use what we think of as martial arts, so asian unarmed styles, and those often use combos that build to a finish. It also links to how we think of kung fu masters in games and popular culture.


I don't see any reason why a combo style mechanic couldn't be used for every class, really. The point is you're trading smaller potential returns in the short term against the possibility of a much larger return later. How big a return depends on how long the streak is.

Wait, what?

How are you doubling the expertise dice?  You said 4th attack is normal damage + 3d10.  This is the same as Deadly Strike, and the same as the current FoB.

Now I'm even more confused 
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

The three previous attacks were 1d10 each. So that's 6d10 across 4 attacks.


Basically each die spent deals an initial die and if the monk decides to finish it yields an additional die as a finish move.

No manuever should be able to exceed the damage cap of Normal XD + normal attack DMG, unless it has some sort of extreme negative (and even that is debatable). 

Sorry but this does not seem clean enough to be functional, at level ten I might have to make four rolls individually?
That seems like a slow and boring mechanic, like watching lotto balls being picked.

sorry, fob is perfect as is, IMO. 

My mind is a deal-breaker.


The three previous attacks were 1d10 each. So that's 6d10 across 4 attacks.


Basically each die spent deals an initial die and if the monk decides to finish it yields an additional die as a finish move.


I still don't get where you're getting extra dice from.  The point of the expertise dice mechanic is that you actually use the dice, themselves, that you're using.

Look man, I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm really trying.  I just have no idea how this is supposed to be an improvement, especially for the people who don't have high system mastery.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition

Well you could resolve it in a single throw of the dice with colour coded dice.


So you announce you're spending 3 expertise dice and doing a 4 hit combo. You designate red as first, black as 2nd, and so on. You roll your dice. If you hit with all 4, jackpot! Roll 1d6+5+6d10.


If you hit with the first two you make unhappy sounds and roll 2d10. If you hit with the first and the third, you lament your fortune and roll 1d10.


My group tends to roll each attack out one at a time; it's just our habit

OK well the basic concept is a series of low-yield hits that build to a very powerful finish.


I'm just using expertise dice 'cause that's the system in front of me, but it could just be your weapon damage roll (unarmed in this case) without any modifiers.


It doesn't matter what the mechanic is, the fun part is knowing that you're building to that huge finish move. The tension comes from the fact that if you miss you lose the combo and you only get to deal the small damage that your initial attacks do.


In 3e terms, flurry would go like so:


1st attack, hit. Roll damage normally or announce a flurry. If you announce a flurry, deal unmodified unarmed dice.


2nd attack, hit. Roll full damage + 2 and stop or deal unmodified unarmed dice


3rd attack, hit. roll for full damage +6 and stop or deal unmodified unarmed dice.


4th attack, hit, roll for full damage +10 and stop....



You see? The idea is the return grows with each successive hit. The expertise dice are just a medium. The combo move is the unmodified expertice die. The finish move is your unarmed damage roll + however many dice you spent.


Or it could be something different. I don't mind but the fact that the most important strike is the last one and there's some real chances of losing it makes the additional attacks more fun.

-1.

Flurry of Blows, as is, is amazing. It deals the same amount of total potential damage as Deadly Strike, will be better overall (statistically speaking, over time), and amounts to a large number of small hits which together, coupled with the higher chance of rolling a critical hit, do great damage. Flurry of Blows is FANTASTIC as is. I really don't want them to change it! It feels perfect!
I wish I could share the excitement for flurry. I hated it pretty much instantly. I played through a few combats with my brother and we both hated it.
Really the numbers for this idea could work. It is a trade off - you trade a low probability of hitting every time, for getting more damage. Ironing out exactly how much damage you get so that its in line with other attack styles of other classes is perfectly possible and would be a good discussion to have. Really the first consideration should be comparing how fun it is though. Flurry of blows is well designed as a system with statistical benefits, but its just boring. Just put yourself in the situation in which it is used "I missed!, darn, thats sort of not fun, Oh but wait! I can make a nearly insignificant second attack roll for the chance of doing a d4 of damage... lets waste everybodies time for that!" The numbers are sound, no argument there, but its sound in a boring way. Combos in martial arts video games don't end with a small poke for no damage, if you hit all the buttons with the right timing you get rewarded with a big hit, so that hitting buttons is fun, and not just fun for you- other people in the game are watching to see if you get your combo off! They want you to wip out your mad skills and pound the boss, not flurry insignificantly and waste everyones time.
I would suggest giving and additional ability at sixth level that gives an additional attack for the first expertise die.  In other words, the first ED spent grants two extra attacks; additional die still grant one additional attack.  Playing around with the numbers this gives the 10th level Monk with a +5 attribute damage modifier the following numbers:

26.8 at 65% chance of hitting an opponent
22.075 at 50% chance of hitting an opponent
17.35 at 35% chance of hitting an opponent

The compares to an equivalent fighter using a 1d8 weapon and 2d6 weapon as:

65% - 26.2 and 29.6
50% - 20.875 and 23.525
35% - 15.5 and 17.45

EDIT: I had to do an edit.  At this point, I got 50 million sheets with various scenarios, and I quoted the wrong sheet... 
Or maybe at 6th level you can add dex to damage on the flurry rolls?  So by 10th level if you flurry and hit with all 4 attacks you would do 1d6+5, 1d10+5, 1d10+5, and 1d10+5.  A lot but probably comparable to a fighter that hits with both attacks and uses Deadly Strike, while also requiring twice the number of successful attack rolls.
Or maybe at 6th level you can add dex to damage on the flurry rolls?  So by 10th level if you flurry and hit with all 4 attacks you would do 1d6+5, 1d10+5, 1d10+5, and 1d10+5.  A lot but probably comparable to a fighter that hits with both attacks and uses Deadly Strike, while also requiring twice the number of successful attack rolls.



With that the numbers with the current FoB would be 31 DPR compared to a 2d6 fighter at 29.6. But with a d6 ED, it drops to 26.8 which compares to 1d8 fighter at 26.2...

heh it's all so relative isn't it?


I still like the combo idea. Adding a buff at lvl 6 to make flurry stand out over deadly strike is cool too. Maybe the combo idea is a different maneuver entirely?


Mellored might have the right idea; maybe it's a barbarian idea. Some kind of bloodthirst thing or whatever.


I can see it with both classes, to be honest, for very different reasons.

I've edited the first post based on some thinking through and what's been said.


I think the combination strike-style attack could be really fun - it's certainly riskier than flurry - and I'm thinking maybe it should just be its own thing. I do like it for the monk but I don't see why it couldn't be used in other places.


With current accuracy in the playtest the biggest reason not to use this kind of a gamble tactic is the chances to hit are so damn good the end spike can't be too big or it becomes overpowered. Right now the way my math is working out it feels like it's not doing enough damage, but the chances to pull off a successful combo are really high so it has to reflect that.


My math might be wrong too... still checking that but I've thrown some figures on the table.


heh it's all so relative isn't it?


I still like the combo idea. Adding a buff at lvl 6 to make flurry stand out over deadly strike is cool too. Maybe the combo idea is a different maneuver entirely?


Mellored might have the right idea; maybe it's a barbarian idea. Some kind of bloodthirst thing or whatever.


I can see it with both classes, to be honest, for very different reasons.




I think both could be (should be) done for the monk.  I suggested in another thread a building maneuver.  In my example, I used Stunning Fist (since I was also suggesting moving it to the maneuver lists) being the a step in a maneuver progression.  The next step was to burn another die to change the stunned state to unconscious. 

I agree though, building maneuvers (stacking maneuvers?) is a great idea. 
Sign In to post comments