Colossal Monk's Unarmed Damage?

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www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm

Above there is the Unarmed Damage for Small, Medium and Large Monks, but what if i want to go with smaller or bigger monks?

Let's say i wanna put some levels of Monk in a Great Wyrm Dragon, and there's many sizes of Great Wyrms out there, since Huge until Colossal+, then what would be the Unarmed Damage of these creatures?

What if i wanna put levels of Monk in Diminutive Swarms?

Well, i guess you got what i mean.
There's prolly an easier chart somewhere, but I'm in a hurry, and I just know where to find this just right now;  the size numbers are listed here, just figure them in:


Improved Natural Attack [General]


Prerequisite

Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.


Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.


A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.


 
But Unarmed and Natural Attacks are different.

And i may be wrong, but i think i found some contradictions when i compared:

1)This feat you posted;
2)The Table 5-1 from Monster Manual 1;
3)The Advanced and Epic Dragons rules from Epic SRD about Colossal+ size;
4)And Colossal+ size rules from Draconomicon;

Let's put it together:

There are ten Size Categories including the rare Colossal+, the smallest of them (Fine) deals 1 damage with its Bite, so now on let's see what this feat got:

1d2 (Fine deals as much damage as Diminutive does), 1d3 (Diminutive does like Tiny), 1d4 (Tiny to Small), 1d6 (Small to Medium), 1d8 (Medium to Large), 2d6 (Large to Huge), 3d6 (Huge to Gargantuan), 4d6 (Gargantuan to Colossal), 6d6 (Colossal to Colossal+), 8d6 (Colossal+ to ???), 12d6 (??? to ???).

This feat says it increases the natural attack's damage by one size category, but there are 10 sizes, the smallest doesn't count, what means that should be there 9 different damage rolls, not 11.

Then i took a look on Table 5-1 from MM1 and the greatest damage there is 4d6 from a Bite of a Colossal creature, and the Draconomicon shows Bite from Colossal+ as 6d6, the normal progression of 4d6 to 6d6, what means this Table from MM and the Draconomicon do not contradict each other, but gets in conflict with this feat from the MM itself.

The worse part is when i took a look on Colossal+ rules from SRD, that should be the same as the Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon, and i found that their (Colossal+ Dragons) Bite deals 8d6.

Put simply:

1)A table from MM1 contradicts with a feat from itself;
2)This table from MM1 contradicts with Colossal+ rules from SRD;
3)This table from MM1 does not contradict with Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon;
4)Colossal+ rules from Draconomicon contradicts with the same things as the table from MM1.

If there's no contradiction here, then there's a few size categories missing, or i'm REALLY wrong and i'd like you guys help me figure out it.
Refer to the table on page 114 in the player's handbooks for larger and smaller size weapons.

There is also a table in the Arms and Equipment guide page 4 (though it is 3.0) but it is more complete.

Damage progression goes like this as size increases Depending on what the monk's starting damage is (as it goes up by level)

From Medium, large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal
1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6
1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6
1d10-2d8-3d8-4d8-6d8
2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6
2d8-3d8-4d8-6d8-8d8
2d10-4d8-6d8-8d8-12d8     

Hope that helps
Refer to the table on page 114 in the player's handbooks for larger and smaller size weapons.

There is also a table in the Arms and Equipment guide page 4 (though it is 3.0) but it is more complete.

Damage progression goes like this as size increases Depending on what the monk's starting damage is (as it goes up by level)

From Medium, large, Huge, Gargantuan, Colossal
1d6-1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6
1d8-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6
1d10-2d8-3d8-4d8-6d8
2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6
2d8-3d8-4d8-6d8-8d8
2d10-4d8-6d8-8d8-12d8     

Hope that helps

the problem here is that the monk progecion are out of the normal rules, but if you take the 2d10 as base the damage will be 12 d 8 as saying MrCustomer based in the increase damage of 1d20 to many of d6 in each case and of 2d10 to d8 then is the same that the 1d20 but with D8 instead of d6.

and if you gain improved natural weapon maybe you can change it to 14 d 8
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thanks for all your help and insights guys, these tables didn't help me so much, but they gave me an idea.

Based on the number of size categories and the oficial table for Small, Medium and Large Unarmed Monk Damage, i used the logic and then made a table of my own including only the first levels for now:

                     | Fine | Diminutive | Tiny | Small | Medium | Large | Huge | Gargantuan | Colossal | Colossal+ |
Monk 1-3:     |   1    |      1d2      |  1d3 |  1d4  |     1d6    |   1d8  | 1d10 |        2d6       |     2d8     |     2d10    |
Monk 4-7:     |         |                  |         |  1d6  |     1d8    |   2d6  |          |                     |                |                 |
Monk 8-11:   |         |                  |         |  1d8  |    1d10   |   2d8  |          |                     |                |                 |
Monk 12-15: |         |                  |         | 1d10 |     2d6    |   3d6  |          |                     |                |                 |
Monk 16-19: |         |                  |         |  2d6  |     2d8    |   3d8  |          |                     |                |                 |
Monk 20:      |         |                  |         |  2d8  |    2d10   |   4d8  |          |                     |                |                 |

Any thoughts about the next damage rolls which can coherently fulfil this table?
Sorry for the double posting, but i committed a lot of mistakes in the previous post, i just took a look on the FAQ and then on page 28 from Dungeon Master's Guide and then i got i wanted since the beginning!

The only thing missing is the increasing damage for Colossal+ size, but like Oma012 told it must be something like 14d8.
Bump.

I still don't find (i bet it doesn't even exist) Unarmed Damage for Colossal+ Monks (even for non-Monks too, since the only oficial Colossal+ damage presented to us is about Natural Attacks from Dragons).

The biggest oficial damage of this kind in 3.5 is 12d8, by logical the next step should be something like 14d8 or 16d8, but there's nothing oficial about that, then i took a look on 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide and the only damage rolls there bigger than 12d8 are 16d6 and 24d6.

So i ask you guys, what is YOUR opinion if you had to choose one of those?

1)Colossal+ oficially only works for Natural Attacks so the Unarmed Damage doesn't increase after Colossal (12d8);
2)Should be 14d8;
3)Should be 16d6;
4)Should be 16d8;
5)Should be 24d6;

What your opinion guys?
Bump.

I still don't find (i bet it doesn't even exist) Unarmed Damage for Colossal+ Monks (even for non-Monks too, since the only oficial Colossal+ damage presented to us is about Natural Attacks from Dragons).

The biggest oficial damage of this kind in 3.5 is 12d8, by logical the next step should be something like 14d8 or 16d8, but there's nothing oficial about that, then i took a look on 3.0 Arms & Equipment Guide and the only damage rolls there bigger than 12d8 are 16d6 and 24d6.

So i ask you guys, what is YOUR opinion if you had to choose one of those?

1)Colossal+ oficially only works for Natural Attacks so the Unarmed Damage doesn't increase after Colossal (12d8);
2)Should be 14d8;
3)Should be 16d6;
4)Should be 16d8;
5)Should be 24d6;

What your opinion guys?

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 more
Unarmed Damage work like the Natural attack

Colossal + 14 d 8
Colossal ++ 16 d 8
Colossal +++ 18 d 8
and so
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

So, it should go large d8, Huge 2d6, Garg 3d6, Colossal 4d6, Colossal+6d6, C++8d6, C+++12d6.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x.  A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth       
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

So, it should go large d8, Huge 2d6, Garg 3d6, Colossal 4d6, Colossal+6d6, C++8d6, C+++12d6.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x.  A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth       

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Thanks for all your help peoples!

Just one thing about Oma said:

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 more
Unarmed Damage work like the Natural attack



But after 8d8 you go directly to 12d8 (take a look: www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#impr...), what means you applied 4d8 more this time, so maybe a Colossal+ is 16d8 instead of 14d8, or is 16d6 or 24d6 like pointed out by Arms & Equipment Guide (the only two oficially bigger damage dice rolls after 12d8, but they're 3.0), or maybe Colossal+ just affect Natural Attacks, not Unarmed (and other kinds of) Attacks.

That's why i'm with so many doubts.
Thanks for all your help peoples!

Just one thing about Oma said:

Under the standard progresion you aply 2d8 more
Unarmed Damage work like the Natural attack



But after 8d8 you go directly to 12d8 (take a look: www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#impr...), what means you applied 4d8 more this time, so maybe a Colossal+ is 16d8 instead of 14d8, or is 16d6 or 24d6 like pointed out by Arms & Equipment Guide (the only two oficially bigger damage dice rolls after 12d8, but they're 3.0), or maybe Colossal+ just affect Natural Attacks, not Unarmed (and other kinds of) Attacks.

That's why i'm with so many doubts.

let's check maybe the progression work like this in this case.

4d8 - Large
6d8 - Huge
8d8 - Gargantuan
12d8 - Colossal
16d8 - Colossal +
20d8 - Colossal ++
26d8 - Colossal +++
32d8 - Colossal ++++
38d8 - Colossal +++++
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
Well, it looks logical in terms of progression/scaling, so i guess i'll take it!

Thanks for your help Laughing
Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

So, it should go large d8, Huge 2d6, Garg 3d6, Colossal 4d6, Colossal+6d6, C++8d6, C+++12d6.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x.  A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth       

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20

You are incorrect.
The relationship between sizes is strictly following the normal size increase tables when moving from Medium to Large.

The increase from Small to Medium is not, but that's an outlier, and we can assume the Tiny to small would be similarly biased, because the relationship of medium to large is very, very clear.   

At sizes after Large, just take the appropriate size of damage from the Size L monk table, and increase it according to the sizing rules. basically, the damage should double every two size increases, and increase approx 50% from the size before.

This progression is why getting Big is one of the key ways to outperform a fighter in combat.

==Aelryinth     


    
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Your level 1 table is not correct, for the simple fact that the level 1 monk UA damage is just a natural attack increasing with size. Monk progression at later levels does not follow size rules, it follows the monk rules...which are easy enough to replicate with multiplication.

So, it should go large d8, Huge 2d6, Garg 3d6, Colossal 4d6, Colossal+6d6, C++8d6, C+++12d6.

Since damage is all d6's at later sizes, just multiply the damage of a size M monk by the #d6 base of the larger monk.

Thus, a colossal monk would do 4x the damage of a medium monk at the appropriate levels, and a C+ 6x.  A Colossal+ monk would be 12d10 damage at level 20.

==Aelryinth       

sorry the UA not are based in zise or weapon progression, check the small, medium and large table and you can see the problem, at last the only we can do is take the last damage and apply the size progression that do a total of 12d8 for a Colossal Monk Level 20

You are incorrect.
The relationship between sizes is strictly following the normal size increase tables when moving from Medium to Large.

The increase from Small to Medium is not, but that's an outlier, and we can assume the Tiny to small would be similarly biased, because the relationship of medium to large is very, very clear.   

At sizes after Large, just take the appropriate size of damage from the Size L monk table, and increase it according to the sizing rules. basically, the damage should double every two size increases, and increase approx 50% from the size before.

This progression is why getting Big is one of the key ways to outperform a fighter in combat.

==Aelryinth     


    

sorry if dont apply from small , medium, large and so then this dont work like the weapon or size progression

as you say this dont work in small the the monk damage progression don't work like others progressions
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.
The devs have stated before that the ambiguity is because they wanted small UA dmg to actually still be relevant. Halfling monks get a nod, I guess.

Use the sizing rules. UA is just another weapon, and goes up according to the normal rules.

==Aelryinth   
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
The devs have stated before that the ambiguity is because they wanted small UA dmg to actually still be relevant. Halfling monks get a nod, I guess.

Use the sizing rules. UA is just another weapon, and goes up according to the normal rules.

==Aelryinth   

this progression use the last monk damage for a large creature and then the size progression
Pepe pecas pica papas con un pico con un pico pepe pecas pica papas si pepe pecas pica papas con un pico donde esta el pico con que pepe pecas pica papas.