D&D Next Q&A: Legacies, High-Level Play & Expertise Dice

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In this week's D&D Next Q&A, Rodney touches on the different plans for legacies, options at high-level play and expertise dice vs. metamagic.
Trevor Kidd Community Manager
I like the idea of Legacies, and hope it really gets fleshed out well. Between High Level adventuring options and Legacies, I think there is a future in the future of this game. Cool
I've been running legacies in my campaign for a long time.  My PC's got a tavern, then an arena, then a flying arena, and then a small army of followers (who got turned into zombies while they where away).

It would be nice to have ideas like that put in the book.  Just don't say things like "a fighter GET'S an army of...".  Leave them as suggestions, not rules.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

It would be nice to have ideas like that put in the book.  Just don't say things like "a fighter GET'S an army of...".  Leave them as suggestions, not rules.



I agree, and from what was stated in the article, they are making suggestions on what you can get instead of formulas of what you get.

Q&A Haiku Time!  It's the legacy djinni!

Legacy system
Without any followers?
Your wish is granted!

Legacy system
optional for high levels?
Your wish is granted!
 
Expertise Dice Pools
For casters' metamagic?
No.  No wish for you.

 
That should cover the worst worries about the Legacy system, though I'm still curious about balance. Getting the balance right so that such non-direct bonuses to characters are significant without be overly powerful when compared to characters who don't develop them is hard.

The metamagic question is fine, but I think it is a little funny also because he could have just said "No." and achived the same thing. And honestly, I don't want expertise dice for meta-magic. I don't think every class has to have a unique game mechanic, but I do think that magic and martial need to feel and work differently.


So a couple followers, a crafted item, a title, or a castle.

Sounds like the Legacy system is just fluff or it ate the Followers, Structure, Crafting, and Reputation systems.

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

Speaking as someone whose's a fan of 4X games, I've got to say I really like what they're saying about the Legacy system right now. What I want to know, though, is if it is limited to Level 10+ characters, or if a party of adventurers who have, say, cleared out all the hostile tribes on the Isle of Dread, allied themselves with all the peaceful tribes, and then declared one of themselves King would also be able to use it at about 6th or 7th level.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
That should cover the worst worries about the Legacy system, though I'm still curious about balance. Getting the balance right so that such non-direct bonuses to characters are significant without be overly powerful when compared to characters who don't develop them is hard.

The metamagic question is fine, but I think it is a little funny also because he could have just said "No." and achived the same thing. And honestly, I don't want expertise dice for meta-magic. I don't think every class has to have a unique game mechanic, but I do think that magic and martial need to feel and work differently.

I would still like to see a expertise caster.

You deal 1d10 damage as a ranged touch attack.  Then you can spend a die to make it a cone, or change the damage type, or to make it a burst (5' per die spent), 2 dice for a scorching ray style split, or just roll them for extra damage.

Granted, it's going to be a completely different set of "maneuvers".  So calling it something else like "augment" would be fine, but there's concept room a "build your own at-will" mage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

So a couple followers, a crafted item, a title, or a castle. Sounds like the Legacy system is just fluff or it ate the Followers, Structure, Crafting, and Reputation systems.


Maybe it unlocks New Game+, and your next character gets to benefit from your Legacy.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
New Game+?

"I'm bored with this game. Can we restart? My Level 12 fighter retires and gives his vorpal sword and +2 plate to his level 1 fighter son."

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

New Game+? "I'm bored with this game. Can we restart? My Level 12 fighter retires and gives his vorpal sword and +2 plate to his level 1 fighter son."


Haha, exactly.


Though, less ridiculously, I suspect there will be something in there about using the "legacies" to shape the setting for future campaigns.  Something most people seem to do anyways, but with an official framework to go with it.
Feedback Disclaimer
Yes, I am expressing my opinions (even complaints - le gasp!) about the current iteration of the play-test that we actually have in front of us. No, I'm not going to wait for you to tell me when it's okay to start expressing my concerns (unless you are WotC). (And no, my comments on this forum are not of the same tone or quality as my actual survey feedback.)
A Psion for Next (Playable Draft) A Barbarian for Next (Brainstorming Still)
Granted, it's going to be a completely different set of "maneuvers".  So calling it something else like "augment" would be fine, but there's concept room a "build your own at-will" mage.

It isn't the idea of wizards having at-will options that I object to, it is working off the same mechanics as the martial classes I don't want to see. A wizard who could apply so many meta-magic effects to spells per encounter is fine, I just don't want it to feal like I'm playing a martial class with more ranged options. And as much as the entire fluff may be different, if the classes work off the same underlying mechanics they tend to feel the same.
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But it doesn't seem like a system at all. It sounds like it just refers to others systems and give bonuses to it.

"Level 13: Build a small castle, craft a uncommon item, or gain 1d6+2 warriors."

Orzel, Halfelven son of Zel, Mystic Ranger, Bane to Dragons, Death to Undeath, Killer of Abyssals, King of the Wilds. Constitution Based Class for Next!

But it doesn't seem like a system at all. It sounds like it just refers to others systems and give bonuses to it. "Level 13: Build a small castle, craft a uncommon item, or gain 1d6+2 warriors."


I doubt it's anything that bland. I think it'd probably be more like Cook-Moldvay DnD's "name" levels, where you can build castles and gain tax-paying followers once you clear the surrounding area of monsters.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
there's concept room a "build your own at-will" mage.


3.5 Warlock.  I'd like to see it come back in some form.  Not necessarily as an actual Warlock, but that idea.  Blast Shape and Eldritch Essences modifying some fundamental ability.

Doesn't have to use XD, and frankly if they're really going down the "XD=martial" route then it shouldn't.  But even without XD, there's still concept room for a "build your own at-will" caster.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
New Game+? "I'm bored with this game. Can we restart? My Level 12 fighter retires and gives his vorpal sword and +2 plate to his level 1 fighter son."



Probably more along the lines of the legacy items of 3e that grew with your character.  The epic fighter can do that, but his son will likely start off with a sword+1.
1. He didn't really address the potential complications of a follower-themed legacy with a non-follower legacy.

2. I would like to see the Legacy system available at any level (yes, even 1st) if it is appropriate for the campaign or setting.

3. I don't want to see XD in magic. As for meta-magic, I like defined ways of casting spells in higher slots to gain certain benefits. And having that capability built into a class (rather than having to "buy" it through feats or specialties).


 

New Game+? "I'm bored with this game. Can we restart? My Level 12 fighter retires and gives his vorpal sword and +2 plate to his level 1 fighter son."



My brother is out usual Dm and all his campaigns ate tied tigether somhow.
We did have campaighns that played in the same region but years after a earlyer campaign played out there.
 
and this gave things that where nice to see we adopted a small village and build out recources there like cleric building his temple.
a later campaign played in the same area but about 150 years later, it was nice to see that the vilage had grown to now be one of the major cities of the are. 
Q&A Haiku Time!  It's the legacy djinni!

Legacy system
Without any followers?
Your wish is granted!

Legacy system
optional for high levels?
Your wish is granted!
 
Expertise Dice Pools
For casters' metamagic?
No.  No wish for you.

 



Haikus always lead to limericks. At least, in my game they do!



 The Legacy system seems to hint at each player eventually having a network or coterie of characters; will there be Legacies for those who don't want to manage a stable of characters across several levels and will those options be balanced against the multi-character player?

There's many options you will find
And we have several designed
It's not just cohorts
But all different sorts
Of legacies to leave behind



 What options for high-level play will be available for those who don't want to use the Legacy system?

Legacies are for the story
And not for your inventory
There will be options
For your adoption
To have high-level play glory


 Could Expertise Dice be used by spellcasting classes as a way to incorporate meta-magic into D&D Next?

We have spellpower more exact
Unlike 3e which was just whack
We have the meta
Still in the beta
So our answer may sound abstract
Do you have an opinion on what campaign settings should be printed in D&D Next? If so, please cast your votes in this poll! Poll: What campaign settings do you want to see printed in D&D Next?
Really am pumped about all this legacy business going on.  What seems really cool is that because of the way they are doing it you could likely say hey everyone grab two legacies...you guys are super important.  Just seems cool.  It seems like offering ideas of what to do in these levels.  I mean for most of the games I am in and run once you make it to the level 16 area you should have something going on like the descriptions from all the posts concerning the legacy system.  I'm also diggin on the community idea of passing on your weapon, or kingdom, or whatever as a way of maintaining a consisten setting.  Or just having your old legacy items showing up as magic items in later campagins.  An excellent way to break some dramatic irony on the players that they are in the same campaign setting, and didn't even know it.  For those of us that like to run one campaign setting where the player's characters eventually become important members of the world this legacy system is sounding like a bunch of awesome.
Granted, it's going to be a completely different set of "maneuvers".  So calling it something else like "augment" would be fine, but there's concept room a "build your own at-will" mage.

It isn't the idea of wizards having at-will options that I object to, it is working off the same mechanics as the martial classes I don't want to see. A wizard who could apply so many meta-magic effects to spells per encounter is fine, I just don't want it to feal like I'm playing a martial class with more ranged options. And as much as the entire fluff may be different, if the classes work off the same underlying mechanics they tend to feel the same.

But i do.

I want something very much like a ranged fighter, but who uses magic intead of a bow.

Granted, i can reflavor my bow to a lightning bolt or some such, but it doesn't quite work without AOE and elemental attacks.


3.5 Warlock.  I'd like to see it come back in some form.  Not necessarily as an actual Warlock, but that idea.  Blast Shape and Eldritch Essences modifying some fundamental ability.

Doesn't have to use XD, and frankly if they're really going down the "XD=martial" route then it shouldn't.  But even without XD, there's stillconcept room for a "build your own at-will" caster.

Right.  It doesn't have to use XD specificly, but be XD-like.

The 3.5 warlock works alright, though i feel there's room for improvements.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Haikus always lead to limericks. At least, in my game they do!

1 I like what i hear about the Legacy system so far and i look forward to it. Reminds me of Background Trait and how they have story driven benefits, but to a larger scale.

2 I am glad to hear that the Legacy system is being designed more as a means of increasing a character’s story options. I am all for story creep.

3 I'd like to see how strong magic ends up before thinking of introducing meta-magic.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
@Plaguescarred on twitter

It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.


I dunno; it seems to me more like how Conan wound up conquering Aquilonia and becoming its king, or how PCs could build castles and attract followers in oDnD.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.


I dunno; it seems to me more like how Conan wound up conquering Aquilonia and becoming its king, or how PCs could build castles and attract followers in oDnD.

I'm referring to question 3, not 1 or 2.

"Right now, we’re experimenting with expertise dice being the primary expression of the growth of a character’s martial prowess..."

It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.


I dunno; it seems to me more like how Conan wound up conquering Aquilonia and becoming its king, or how PCs could build castles and attract followers in oDnD.

I'm referring to question 3, not 1 or 2.

"Right now, we’re experimenting with expertise dice being the primary expression of the growth of a character’s martial prowess..."



Ah, fair enough. I thought you meant "Epic Destiny".
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

Danny

It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.



Yet if you try to give non-casters anything more potent or unique than Parry or Danger sense, then suddenly a lot of people (including, I would guess, you) are going to start crying about Fighters being too magical.

There's just no winning. Either martial classes do nothing but the mundane, which obviously magical classes should be able to do, after all it's just mundane stuff... or martial classes can do extraordinary things, and are too magical. The only thing that will appease a large segment of gamers is to have martial characters be completely useless and redundant, which is something that will drive away the other segment of the playerbase. It is literally a no win situation. 
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.



Yet if you try to give non-casters anything more potent or unique than Parry or Danger sense, then suddenly a lot of people (including, I would guess, you) are going to start crying about Fighters being too magical.

There's just no winning. Either martial classes do nothing but the mundane, which obviously magical classes should be able to do, after all it's just mundane stuff... or martial classes can do extraordinary things, and are too magical. The only thing that will appease a large segment of gamers is to have martial characters be completely useless and redundant, which is something that will drive away the other segment of the playerbase. It is literally a no win situation. 

I've got no problem with over the top maneuvers for martial classes.  I'd actually enjoy it, to be honest.  I think TWF and FoB are woefully underpowered, actually.  I think most of DDN is tepid in its overall gameplay.
Let everyone have the mundane.  Let the warriors have Florentine longswords or the ability to smash through stone pillars with wrought iron tetsubo.  Let the Monks hit 6 people in a single round.  That will provide a nice contrast to "Fireball!  Fireball!  Fireball!",
But let everyone have Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, Parry, Cleave, Danger Sense and the like as long as they're willing to devote a Feat to it.
Feats are optional. So you can't do it that way.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Feats are optional. So you can't do it that way.


This.

Class balance should be, to borrow wrecan's phase, opt-outable. Classes by default should be designed with balance in mind, with throwing in anything that disrupts that balance be up to the player and/or DM.

Classes can't be balanced by a completely optional game mechanic.

Besides, IIRC, magic classes get feats too. SO while Martial characters are spending their feat space just to play catch-up, Magic classes have all their cool toys are base features, AND have a bunch of feats to play with. It's 3.x all over again.
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.


Anyone can parry or sense danger; that's what their AC and Spot/Listen bonuses are for, respectively. Classes with Expertise dice are simply capable of doing them much more effectively than anyone else, if they've developed the special techniques to do so.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
Feats are optional. So you can't do it that way.

I'd rather see them optional then see them applicable to only a small section of classes.  The former keeps more options open, whereas the latter intentionally removes options.

Classes shouldn't be balanced by mundane Feats.  Classes shouldn't be balanced by making mundane Feats available to only a select few classes, either.  The current design philosophy is forcing an impasse.  Something's gotta change.  Manuevers need to be overhauled, and Feats need to be expanded.  If DMs choose to remove the expanded Feats that is their choice.

Martial classes wouldn't be playing catch up with magic classes.  Magic classes IMO want non-magic Feats, especially when they have much fewer spells like they do in DDN.
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.


Anyone can parry or sense danger; that's what their AC and Spot/Listen bonuses are for, respectively. Classes with Expertise dice are simply capable of doing them much more effectively than anyone else, if they've developed the special techniques to do so.

All classes are equal, some are just more equal than others.

It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.



Yet if you try to give non-casters anything more potent or unique than Parry or Danger sense, then suddenly a lot of people (including, I would guess, you) are going to start crying about Fighters being too magical.

There's just no winning. Either martial classes do nothing but the mundane, which obviously magical classes should be able to do, after all it's just mundane stuff... or martial classes can do extraordinary things, and are too magical. The only thing that will appease a large segment of gamers is to have martial characters be completely useless and redundant, which is something that will drive away the other segment of the playerbase. It is literally a no win situation. 

I've got no problem with over the top maneuvers for martial classes.  I'd actually enjoy it, to be honest.  I think TWF and FoB are woefully underpowered, actually.  I think most of DDN is tepid in its overall gameplay.
Let everyone have the mundane.  Let the warriors have Florentine longswords or the ability to smash through stone pillars with wrought iron tetsubo.  Let the Monks hit 6 people in a single round.  That will provide a nice contrast to "Fireball!  Fireball!  Fireball!",
But let everyone have Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, Parry, Cleave, Danger Sense and the like as long as they're willing to devote a Feat to it.



I'm not going to argue the TWF stuff; there's not enough released to make a determination.  However, if you look at FoB and DS without regard for the extra attack for a fighter you get:

At 65% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB - 20.25 
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 17.75 

At 50% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB - 16.5
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 13.85

At 35% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB -  12.75
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 9.95

These calculations assume a level 10 character with a +5 attribute damage.  Since the assumption is a level 10 character, the 6d6 critical damage die is calculated into the final value.  I don't think the FoB as a power is the problem.  It's the extra attack of the fighter that puts the fighter over the top.  Here are the DPR stats for the same fighter with an extra attack:

At 65% - 23.45
At 50% - 18.125
at 35% - 12.8

So, FoB being underpowered as a general statement is inaccurate in my opinion.                  
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.


Anyone can parry or sense danger; that's what their AC and Spot/Listen bonuses are for, respectively. Classes with Expertise dice are simply capable of doing them much more effectively than anyone else, if they've developed the special techniques to do so.

All classes are equal, some are just more equal than others.


Huh? That's not what I was saying at all. I was just saying that while a wizard might be able to throw a fireball, the fighter has spent his time learning how to perform the Sevenfold Blade Barrier Technique (Parry maneuver) instead.
Come visit Dark Side of the Moon, the new home to the Nasuverse fandom!
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.



Yet if you try to give non-casters anything more potent or unique than Parry or Danger sense, then suddenly a lot of people (including, I would guess, you) are going to start crying about Fighters being too magical.

There's just no winning. Either martial classes do nothing but the mundane, which obviously magical classes should be able to do, after all it's just mundane stuff... or martial classes can do extraordinary things, and are too magical. The only thing that will appease a large segment of gamers is to have martial characters be completely useless and redundant, which is something that will drive away the other segment of the playerbase. It is literally a no win situation. 

I've got no problem with over the top maneuvers for martial classes.  I'd actually enjoy it, to be honest.  I think TWF and FoB are woefully underpowered, actually.  I think most of DDN is tepid in its overall gameplay.
Let everyone have the mundane.  Let the warriors have Florentine longswords or the ability to smash through stone pillars with wrought iron tetsubo.  Let the Monks hit 6 people in a single round.  That will provide a nice contrast to "Fireball!  Fireball!  Fireball!",
But let everyone have Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will, Parry, Cleave, Danger Sense and the like as long as they're willing to devote a Feat to it.



I'm not going to argue the TWF stuff; there's not enough released to make a determination.  However, if you look at FoB and DS without regard for the extra attack for a fighter you get:

At 65% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB - 20.25 
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 17.75 

At 50% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB - 16.5
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 13.85

At 35% hit percentage:

Monk's FoB -  12.75
Fighter's DS (with a 1d8 weapon) - 9.95

These calculations assume a level 10 character with a +5 attribute damage.  Since the assumption is a level 10 character, the 6d6 critical damage die is calculated into the final value.  I don't think the FoB as a power is the problem.  It's the extra attack of the fighter that puts the fighter over the top.  Here are the DPR stats for the same fighter with an extra attack:

At 65% - 23.45
At 50% - 18.125
at 35% - 12.8

So, FoB being underpowered as a general statement is inaccurate in my opinion.

I find DDN in general to be lackluster.  I want FoB to be brought up to a Fighter with extra attack's level.  I want balance through buffs rather than balance through nerfs, to use MMO parlance.
It is now official.  The plan is for every single Martial class in DDN to have ED.  We have now traded our unique classes for homogenous game design.

Sensible patterns in mechanical expression arising! Oh no!

I actually adore what XD have done for the game, and really appreciate it as a unifying mechanic for martial capability. -- Really looking forward to the myriad ways in which added class features will flavor the pot!

One person's sensible pattern is another person's boring routine.  I don't want ED for every martial class in the game.  As it stands, I feel many maneuvers need to be remade into Feats.  There is no reason a magic class shouldn't be able to Parry or have Danger Sense.  With them as maneuvers, only classes with ED will have a chance at doing these.


Anyone can parry or sense danger; that's what their AC and Spot/Listen bonuses are for, respectively. Classes with Expertise dice are simply capable of doing them much more effectively than anyone else, if they've developed the special techniques to do so.

All classes are equal, some are just more equal than others.


Huh? That's not what I was saying at all. I was just saying that while a wizard might be able to throw a fireball, the fighter has spent his time learning how to perform the Sevenfold Blade Barrier Technique (Parry maneuver) instead.

To argue that Parry and AC are similar even though one is more effective is the epitomy of the paraphrased quote I used.