Junk Tokens advice

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Hi all,

I've been keeping a G/W/B deck open for a while now for tinkering, and while it started out as a midrange goodstuff type deck, I found myself winning most often when I could reliably get tokens onto the field, so gradually the deck went more into tokens, and I thought I'd bring my latest effort to the internet to see what you all thought and to maybe get some pointers. These colours and this line of deck-building isn't really my forte, but you know, gotta expand the comfort zones and all that.



Thanks!

Demeisen

Latest build, go nuts.

Still debating the merits of adding a Vraska into main. Also, once Gatecrash drops Liliana of the Dark Realms may have a spot in here as double duty all round mana fixer and spot removal gal.




I want to be Cultured.
I started building my own Junk Tokens deck 2 days ago. Try adding one or even two [C]Collective Blessing[/C]s. That card is absolutely brutal. Every spirit token will be at least 4/4. Also consider adding one [C]Vraska the Unseen[/C]. Her -3 is really amazing.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

My lineup was a bit different originally... Instead of the 3 Midnight Haunting I had a Vraska and 2 Increasing Devotion. I decided I needed a few more things lower down the curve to both apply pressure onto control and keep aggro from going too hard. You think cutting one of the Hauntings to put Vraska back in would work out?

And as for collective blessing, even if they were in the side what would you cut? But I agree, that is one bomby card lol
I want to be Cultured.
I would probably cut a Garruk or even a Thragtusk for the Blessing. Thragtusk is a good card but I don't think he fits in Junk Tokens. Sure, he leaves a 3/3 beast and gives you 5 life (vault is way better in gaining life though) but he doesn't affect the board as much as the blessing. The blessing is extremely powerful and has already won me a few games.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

Needs moar Pack Rat!

Seriously though, a few cards that could potentially be good here.

Bloodline Keeper, Geist-Honored Monk, and Entreat the Angels.

Just some thoughts.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Play 4 Sorin and little Garruk instead of big Garruk in the main.

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@Eon - lol, nah, my copies of Pack Rat are busy providing inevitablity to my nearly-mono-black control =p

But Geist-honored Monk is something I'd totally forgotten about. 5 mana for at least a 3/3 and 2 2/2 fliers with vigilance is no joke, I might have 3 of them and a Vraska replace the Thragtusks. I'm as sick as all of you for Thragtusk saturation in the field right now. Or maybe side 3 Tusks for the aggro matchups.

Play 4 Sorin and little Garruk instead of big Garruk in the main.



I might up the Sorin count, but I don't want to do away with big Garruk completely. His token pumping is awesome, but the real reason he's in here is as a crazy powerful draw engine. And if I do splash in a Collective Blessing then that makes this aspect of him so much more potentially game breaking.


I want to be Cultured.
Any sideboard ideas yet?
I guess [C]Sundering Growth[/C] is a must.

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Bumped, original deck edit, sideboard, notes and more!
I want to be Cultured.
Do you think [C]Loxodon Smiter[/C] or [C]Centaur Healer[/C] also fit in the SB? The :U: Flash deck really hates Smiter and Centaur Healer is against aggressive decks like :B::R:
[C]Knight of Glory[/C] is also really good against Zombies and does some work against Jund - [C]Dreadbore[/C] and [C]Abrupt Decay[/C] won't work on him.

IMAGE(http://oi39.tinypic.com/14mvxh5.jpg)

I thought on both Smiter and Healer. Loxodon Smiter is clearly an undercosted house, but he isn't going to be doing anything for me when I'm on 6 life at turn 4 and they either bring in the horde anyway with a Hellrider, or slap down a Falkenrath Aristocrat because I haven't had the chance to play anything with wings yet, or just straight up melt the face.

Centaur Healer is a step in the right direction, but again I don't massively need the body, and the life gain is useful, but without the possibility of a Resto to sort me out with emergency life, I honestly think that the immediate shot in the arm of nearly half a life total would help this plan out. Once I can make it smoothly to turn 5/6, I'll have Trostani or a walker out, and consistently getting my mitts on life every turn, bodies every turn, and I'll generally turn into both an immovable object AND an unstoppable force. I honestly think that -given the prevalence of bodies anyway and the advantages inherent in a token strategy against decks loaded with spot removal- Heroes Reunion is the correct answer to the current crop of Sligh burn/RDW/BR aggro that fizzles out after 5 turns but can be scary effective.

I think Knight of Glory is only really worth running right now against B/G zombies, bit too narrow and not quite clutch enough in the matchup(unlike RIP of course, which nukes reanimator). The decent destruction these days is all red. I can see Knight of glory just getting pinged for 2 constantly...

But yeah, Centaur Healer is definitely a consideration.
I want to be Cultured.
Anybody got any other suggestions? I'm currently caught a bit between sticking with the Junk and tweaking it a piece more, or trading across to Esper tokens for some of them groovy instants and Favorable winds... Would anybody that's done both care to comment?
I want to be Cultured.
You have 15 2 drops, which seems a bit much.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
Ok, why does having a lot of 2 drops feel like a problem? Not being funny neither, just asking. You seem to take umbrage with the fact that they're 2 drops, rather then looking at what they are and what they're doing lol. I AM tempted to cut Selesnya Charm to 3 and bring Oblivion Ring up to 3, but Charm is just so tasty... However that is literally the only cut I can see happening at the 2 slot.
I want to be Cultured.
It's generally considered to be better to have your cards evenly distributed along the mana curve, so that you can play something that costs as much mana as you have available as often as possible.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
The heavy low end of the curve is deliberate, and I've got 19 2 costs if you want to include the other half of lingering souls...

Just in case anyone is curious, my curve at the moment is(and I recommend laying it out like this when you're building, because costs matter)

1 cmc = 0
2 = 15
3 = 10
4 = 5
5 = 6

This isn't an aggro deck, but I do want to be able to lay out bodies consistently, and this deck can survive very well off of 3 lands. This was completely deliberate on my part because I like being able to play cards and abhor getting stuck for lands, so I build around it.

But the other reason my deck has lots of cards at the lower end is because those numbers don't tell the whole story. Trostani, Selesnya's voice, Vault of the Archangel and Gavony Township are very important and very mana hungry cards. Including those lands, my 5 drops could arguably be put up to 10 cards instead of 6, and I don't always want my turns to be over just because Trostani done popped a token.
I want to be Cultured.
For comparison's sake here's the Junk Token list I took 1st with at a tournament yesterday at my LGS:


Playtested the deck most of the week prior without a sideboard and built the sideboard to combat the stuff that was beating me (angel of serenity and little aggressive creatures that killed my planeswalkers mostly). 

Hits:
collective blessing is a house in this list and most opponents scoop when this hits the table as they cannot keep up with me cranking out multiple 4/4 creatures every turn or my 8/6 thragtusks stomping over their puny 5/3 ones.  trostani, selesnya's voice was the MVP and I didn't lose a game when she was in play (saw her a lot even though there was only 1 in the deck).  disciple of bolas as card advantage was a huge game swinger and saved my butt a couple times.
Misses: call of the conclave was only good against the zombie deck and was boarded out almost every match, will stick it in the sideboard and maindeck more removal.  The cute 1 of's: growing ranks, parallel lives and vitu-ghazi guildmage did their job (creating virtual card advantage) but their low impact when casting them makes them a liability in tight games and will be replaced when I can get a hold of some more planeswalkers.
It's interesting that you didn't like call of the conclave, because I found that card to be consistently awesome in any game I was able to get it out turn 2, and it makes a great buffer for a turn 3 Intangible virtue. In what ways was it sub-par for you?

And I notice that your deck has considerably less token generators then my build lol, I take it you never found yourself short of a way to get a spud out? And yeah, Trostani is an absolute monster. I ran one myself but she's too much of a workhorse to be a 1-of IMO.
I want to be Cultured.
With call of the conclave I found that it didn't impact the board as much as I thought it would and found that using that 2 mana was better spent ramping with farseek or removing early threats like lyev skyknight and lotleth troll.  I think they are better in your deck as you are pushing to apply pressure early gamefor with a lot of threats where my deck is playing towards stabilizing, winning the attrition battle (precisely why i was having trouble with angel of serenity), and then going over the top with collective blessing.  Our decks are kind of similar but play out differently.
See your deck reminds me of what this deck was before I went ham on the token element lol, previously it was literally a midrange beast deck with Call of the Conclaves in it, then it sort of evolved and then I went all out the other way =p. Honestly I can see my deck winding up something like yours, i.e. a middle ground!
I want to be Cultured.
We must be onto something.  Junk tokens took 2nd place at Grand Prix Charleston with a deck that looks like our two decks mashed together and tuned up.
We must be onto something.  Junk tokens took 2nd place at Grand Prix Charleston with a deck that looks like our two decks mashed together and tuned up.


By the way, to anyone who didn't read the article, the tokens player said he wanted to cut collective blessing after the tournament.
I hate dogs.
I'll have to give that one a read then. I'm not surprised that a variant of this has placed well, it's a cracking deck. It's just that there are actually a serious amount of variables involved in the specific build! It's why I've been tweaking this for ages despite not really getting any toys in RTR!

Just so people know, I'm actually quite enjoying Geist-honored Monk in this build, but only exactly as it is. It gets considerably more value in a deck that can pop out obscene numbers of bodies, and this deck can definitely do that, but I can see myself dropping a few of the token cards in favour for more destruction options(probably a few Abrupt Decay, and if that happens I'll drop them in Favour of Thragtusks straight up.

What do you guys think of the dorks in his line up? I'll be honest that never occured to me, and I can't say I like the idea of them here...

Also, and I figure this one DEFINITELY is just me, but I really really don't like Garruk Relentless
I want to be Cultured.
Bump. Done some more testing and tweaking on this bad boy, I'm really liking it, it feels like a bit of a proper solid deck. Critique away. I'm still struggling to get a balance I'm 100% happy with between a proper amount of destruction and everything else, but it's getting there. Abrupt Decay might go and become something else, possibly o-ring or maybe another Sever the bloodline...
I want to be Cultured.
Abrupt Decay is probably more of a SB card anyways.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
I'll update the list at the front when I get a bit more time later on, but at the moment the death suite is 2 abrupt Decay, 2 ultimate price and 1 sever the bloodline with another one of each in the SB. Alongside the potential tricks out of Selesnya charm it's a pretty nice toolkit.

Although I'm tempted to side the 2 Trostani, Selesnya's voice for another Garruk, Primal Hunter and a Vraska the unseen. Trostanis are basically planeswalkers in terms of how they play, but with Tusks, Vaults and Sorins in the main and Centaur Healer in the side, this deck can gain a hilarious amount of life as is and her token production is both more fragile then a PW and costly. So a couple of little buddies to help smash face is where I want to be I think.

Also, I've grown to love the idea of an ostensibly creature focused strategy that also has more Planeswalkers then a lot of control decks do!
I want to be Cultured.
Testing is carrying on, it's good stuff. I definitely think that token decks right now want to think seriously about going heavy in the Walker department. The wall of bodies this deck can crack out makes dealing with them a proper chore, and if you get swept it's alarmingly easy to just pump out more next turn without even needing a hand.

Farseek is at four currently because I want to be able to reach the higher end and between Sorin and Big Garruk I've got some pretty intensive mana costs to hit. Godless shrine will come straight in to replace the Isolated Chapels, and probably be a four of. And I'm quite keen to see what the Orzhov Charm and Orzhov Keyrune are saying too.
I want to be Cultured.
I started playing Junk Tokens recently, heres my deck:



I think I prefer mana dorks to farseek in this deck as they will accelerate into a turn 2 lingering/midnight and they are also a body to be pumped by Gavony Township, Vault of the Archangel and Mikaeus, the Lunarch. However they do make the deck more vulnerable to sweepers. On the suface the deck looks like it could be vulnerable to sweepers, but with the planeswalkers and cards that are armies by themselves, it recovers so well from them that they are not much of a problem. Also Thragtusks are just too good not to play, I'd play all 4 if I had them but currently only own 3. They're resilient to sweepers, amazing against aggro, an answer to opposing Thragtusks, absurd with big Garruk. I'm sure you all know this, I just wanted to reiterate how good he is in this deck. I'm not quite sure which is better in this deck: Increasing Devotion or Geist-Honored Monk so I'm trying 1 of each at the moment. The sideboard is a work in progress, at the moment it's kind of geared towards beating aggro as i board in the healer, resto angel, all the removal and Trostani against them. Sigardas only really in there to help beat midrange decks especially Jund as they can't deal with her at all. Any tips on sideboarding would be great as it's probably the weakest aspect of my game.

 
Bloodline Keeper is an interesting one, how's that working out for you? Mikaeus is interesting too, I might have to side in

I tested with both Geist and Devotion, and before just scrapping both in favour of more Walkers I preferred Geist as it combines some token coverage and gives you a vigilance beast that if left unchecked will just go nuts. But the instant army of Devotion is sick, and if you make it to the 9 it's a win condition.

As for the lack of dorks in my build, I'm well aware that goes against current wisdom and they probably should be in my deck, but honestly I just don't like playing with them. Once you've got 4 lands out you're usually good and then the dorks just become horrible tops. The strength of this deck in my opinion is the strength of it's topdecks, and they hurt that.

Sideboarding is always contentious, but my biggest concern is aggro. This deck can go as long as anything but in terms of speed it fits into midrange, and if they can hit a couple of good one drops connecting and then a messenger by the time I've started popping out the fliers, that can be painful. It's the worst matchup for the deck imo, and I don't know about your areas but around me the recent B/R zombie wins have got everyone going aggro wild again.

I usually side out some mix of Big Garruk, Thragtusk, Sorin and maybe a Charm and Farseek to bring in the Healers and the extra Decay and Price. But that's because I run more of these things then you do in the first place. In yours, I'd cut the Mikaeus, Armada Worm, Collective Blessing and probably the Devotion too. The trick is to ensure you can survive the onslaught and answer the Hellrider/Aristocrat/Hellkite when they drop. If you can make a couple of Planeswalkers stick they'll do a lot of work for you.

Trostani is great against Aggro because it's a fat wall, with lifegain, and tokens, but she also works pretty well against control too if you can get her to stick. She sometimes comes in against control, but Sever the Bloodline, Vraska and the Faith's Shields are my main go to's. They work fine against midrange decks too.

Sundering Growths are sort of a place-holder for me because you never quite know when you'll be going against something that makes use of certain choice enchantments or artifacts that can cause proper problems. This is a really long topic so I'll cut it here lol, but I hope this helps!
I want to be Cultured.
About Bloodline Keeper, I'm not loving him, first of all he is quite hard to cast on turn 4 because of the double black although you may find it easier using Farseek. He also dies to most of the removal in the format. He's not bad against control as he's another army on his own that they must deal with, and he helps you to not overextend into their sweepers. But after playtesting I decided to cut him, I really want another Sorin at the 4 drop slot but it's coming up christmas and magic funds are slim. I'm actually trying out Phantom General, I've only played a few games with him in the deck and haven't drawn him yet so I don't know if he's any good. I don't have very high hopes for him though as he is very vulnerable being a creature and if he gets killed mid-combat you could get blown out by having all your team lose the +1+1. 

Thanks for the tips on sideboarding. I'm surprised you side out the Thragtusks against aggro, IMO they are invaluable against aggro, some players just concede as soon as I play him. He stays in in every matchup for me. I cut exactly what you suggested normaly against aggro, usually a big Garruk, Wurm, Blessing, Devotion, Mikaeus, Geist,  and sometimes 1 Pilgirm. I bring in the healers, the resto angels, Trostani and the removal.

I'm curious if Faith's Shield is worth a sideboard slot, I presume you use it to protect your Planeswalkers in control matchups. This sounds like it could be great but I think I might need to run more walkers to make it worthwhile.

Sundering Growths are o.k but I run O-Rings to deal with any pesky enchantments or artifacts I encounter, Growths probably better at this as it's cheaper and Instant speed and sometimes nets you a token, however O-Ring hits creatures and Planeswalkers. Although O-Ring is vulnerable to being removed I still think I prefer it.
I said some mix lol, the key is to ensure you can get there, never more then one. You've seen what the current crop of Aggro is all about... Hellrider, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Thundermaw Hellkite. With the exception of the dragon they're all in face before Thragtusk can show up to stem the bleeding, and need to be answered double time. BR guys might bitch up round your area when you drop a Tusk, but in London they just answer my 5 gain by taking that right back out again with a Hellkite.

I honestly think Trostani is a bigger pain for serious aggro then Thragtusk(alone) is right now. As long as people are going heavy on the top end with that mean red stuff, that 5 life gain is much less impressive, but they have precious little to do against 5 toughness and her lifegain is consistent and a great way to draw the game out. I'm not saying Thraggy isn't a complete pimp, but that high end hits disgustingly hard. As the last few weeks have shown. Boy am I glad I got my Hellriders in at 4 for £1 when everyone said they were terrible. They're about £8 a pop now!

I think Faith's Shield probably is better for me. Between Trostani and the Walkers protecting one permanent is worth it, in your build maybe not. The only thing I think stands out a little is the random Rootborn Defenses(I can't believe you guys are spelling defences wrong now...) tbh. 4th Healer? Selesnya charm to hand? That card can exile a surprising amount of stuff these days lol.

Sundering Growth is a personal touch, round my way I've been playing a B/R control that's caught on a bit, so people getting happy off stuff like Staff of Nin, Curse of death's hold and Underworld connections is a thing, and people never see it coming because artifact and enchantment destruction these days is practically non-existant. But Oblivion Ring is a great replacement.

How's Intrepid Hero working out for you? I've not played with him yet, but I'm hearing a lot of noise about him...
I want to be Cultured.
Intrepid Hero has actually been fantastic. He's insane against G/W Midrange decks as he kills alot of their creatures and also stops them from using Rancor on the little critters. He deals with half a Thragtusk which is nice, I'd definately recommend him as a 1-of in the board. 

I've just seen this new b/r aggro/midrange deck, and I think I need some more Ultimate Price in the deck. Also I might go up to 4 Selesnya Charms as he deals with the Hellkite. 

Rootborn Defenses has been o.k, but I'm thinking of replacing it withGolgari Charm. It fills the same role in protecting our guys from Supreme Verdict but also has more versatility in being able to destroy enchantments. I doubt the -1-1 will get used as it would hurt us more than them alot of the time, however it does kill Falkenrath Aristocrat

By the way I play on MTGO so I face all sorts of decks.

 
Yeah, I think you're right, I've tweaked my board a piece, the Abrupt and the Sunderings out, and a 4th Ultimate Price & Selesnya Charm and an Intrepid hero in. Charm does a lot of work anyway, but Price is key against the new batch of BR 4 drop decks. If you can't answer the Hells Rider and Kite at instant speed you may find yourself completely boned. I'm going to try out 2 and 2, but in my head that seems like the proper number.

Gonna give Intrepid Hero a whirl in the board too, seems like my kind of guy.
I want to be Cultured.
I came in 3rd at my FNM last night with the following.


I'd probably want either another Sorin or Abrupt Decay in place of the Wayfaring Temple, and my mana base is a total mess due to lack of lands. Sideboard's main card is Ultimate Price.

Not certain what to do against control decks. Side Loxodon Smiter?
Interesting choices there. I think you definitely want more destruction here. How have the Deathrite Shaman and Pack Rat performed?
I want to be Cultured.
Selesnya charm works as removal in a lot of cases to get rid of anything big, I usually save it for that unless I need the boost to save a guy or a token for emergency block.
Shaman's awesome. Although 3x would probably be enough, I like having 4. Shuts off undying, shuts off flashback, messes with life totals, and gets you value off anything you discard to the Rat.
The Rat's performing better than I thought, although obviously not as good as in limited. Because Intangible Virtue pumps the token copies, you only need 2 or 3 token rats to have a significant board presence. He does draw removal if they have it, and you need to be wary of board wipes, but I'd rather they kill my 2cmc 1/1 than something larger.
I posted the power of pack rat in junk tokens almost a month ago now. Trostani + rat + virtue = ridic.

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I've been tinkering with my lineup, I'm fairly certain I went in too hard with the Walkers and need to be realistic about costs and all that boring stuff =p

Also, Avacyn's pilgrim. So it might be time to try out a couple of rats alongside the Tusks. Or I might just drop the Tusks altogether like a boss and push the Trostani/Rat thing. 
I want to be Cultured.
Alrighty, for those who give a spit, the testing and tweaking continues and you get to hear about it. Yay!

Currently trying out a straight swap out of Farseek for Avacyn's pilgrim, and some of the higher cost stuff(Notably a Thragtusk and Garruk, Primal Hunter) for Arbor Elf. I was going to drop Farseek to three and go 4 Pilgrim + 3 Farseek, but they seem a bit clunky together in this deck. If I drop a dork on turn 1, I want to have fliers on deck turn 2 so I can start bearing down on turn 3, ideally with a virtue or a Sorin in place. Turn 3 Sorin is the key play this deck wants to see, and the fact is in standard right now to stand a realistic chance you're either the guy with all the sweepers or the guy with a fast kill plan.

So yeah, trying out a faster version to see what's what.

RE: Thragtusk - I'm aware that cutting one is super contraversial right now. Tough. It isn't a card designed to win games, it's a card designed to draw them out. The reason he's in here is actually the token. The pigs value actually goes up considerably when the token he leaves behind is stronger then he is. But 5 drops are 5 drops, and I want to be hitting hard in the air. Most times I'd rather play out a big Garruk.

On the rat thing, I'll set up a different thread for that, because I'm almost certain it will be worse then this by simple fact of being slower. But it'll be it's own beast and need to be built accordingly. Much more defensive tech will be needed methinks. Probably with some main-deck populate tools other than Trostani.
I want to be Cultured.

Not certain what to do against control decks. Side Loxodon Smiter?



what control decks?   golgari charm stops wrath, as does rootborn defense.  those are both good options, and i'd run some in the board.

if it's against UW flash, then you should probably be able to beat them anyways.  it's a deck that is slowly dying off. 

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what control decks?



I take it you're asking for specifics regarding matchups and not insinuating that control decks aren't things?

I want to be Cultured.
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