U/W control deck speed

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Need some help speeding up my U/W control decks speed.

Im getting beat more than 50% of the time by white human weenie or red haste


Control isn't about speed.  Are you running board sweepers to clean the board to cut down on Aggro being able to hit you every turn with a small army?

Supreme Verdict and Terminus are very good at helping Control decks stabalize.
My Decks
Standard: BR Aggro Burn RDW Modern: Dragon Stompy Burn Fae Tempo Zoo Cherrios Legacy: Zoo Dragon Stompy Pauper: Slivers Landfall EDH: Sliver Overlord
1000th post on 2-1-10. 5000th post on 1-21-13.
What Anubuss said. Also, posting a deck list would go a long way towards having people be able to help you solve your current issues.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
Sorry about the delay, here is the deck list:

Instants & Sorceries

3X Supreme Verdict
2X Sphinx's Revelation
4X Azorius Charm
2X Entreat The Angels
2X Syncopate
4X Dissipate
2X Temporal Mastery

Enchantments

4X Detention Sphere

Creatures

4X Restoration Angel
4X Augur Of Bolas
3X Snapcaster Mage
3X Geist Of Saint Traft

Planeswalkers

2X Jace, Architect of Thought
2X Tamiyo, the Moon Sage 

Land

4X Hallowed Fountain
4X Glacial Fortress 
6X Island
5X Plains 

My mana curve seems decent, Entreat the Angels and Temporal Mastery are the only card's over 5 CMC and Jace, Architect of Though is the only card with 5 CMC. So everything else is 4 or below with the majority being 3 CMC.

I am not having problems with drawing mana and 19 seems the magic number with lands as far as that goes.

My problem has been pretty consistantly with speed against white and red aggro decks.

White has beem getting out Champion of the Parish or Thalia, Guardian of Thraben out in the first 2 turns, with Gather the Townsfolk. It turns my Supreme Verdict into a turn 5 play and Detention Sphere into a turn 4 play and by then neither is enough to turn the tide.

Red has been applying the beatdown with Stromkirk Noble,Hellrider, Ash Zealot, combined with various burn spells turns into a turn 5 or 6 win.

Im thinking of taking out both Temporal Mastery and adding the fourth Snapcaster Mage

Sphinx's Revelation hasn't been a game breaker either although it has helped in some situations in late game
I am not having problems with drawing mana and 19 seems the magic number with lands as far as that goes.



Mathematically speaking, I am curious about this. With 19 lands, there is 30% chance you will not have two lands by turn 2 (assuming you start), compared to 19% with 23 lands.
I am not having problems with drawing mana and 19 seems the magic number with lands as far as that goes.



Mathematically speaking, I am curious about this. With 19 lands, there is 30% chance you will not have two lands by turn 2 (assuming you start), compared to 19% with 23 lands.



41 cards + 19 land = 60 card deck with a 31% mana ratio.

A hair less than 1 in 3 cards witll be mana in a perfect world.

This means I should draw 2 land out of 7 cards and have the third land come on my second turn and fourth land on my fifth turn.

Agian this is in a perfect world.

To alaviate any mana anorexia I have intentionally put 24 cards with a CMC of 3 or less in the deck.

Since you have mentioned it I have begun to think that it could use 1 or 2 more mana, just to be on the safe side.

But the above was my train of though with the current deck version

A couple extra mana would go a long way to help with Thalia too... 
You need at least 25-26 land in a control decks your math theories are horrendous and Temporal Mastery is terrible please remove it immediately.

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For one, play Feeling of Dread. For two, your land count is way too low; the world is not perfect, and you need to make land drops from turn one til forever, especially considering your deck doesn't mulligan well.
Cut 2 Temporal Mastery for 2 more land
Cut 2 Dissipate for 1 Sycopate and a land
Cut 1 Revalaition for a land
Cut 1 Entreat for a land

That puts you at 24 land (the bare minimum for what you'd want) and ups your odds at short changing Aggro since X = 1 is as good as a hard counter in the early turns when they're trying to curve out.

My Decks
Standard: BR Aggro Burn RDW Modern: Dragon Stompy Burn Fae Tempo Zoo Cherrios Legacy: Zoo Dragon Stompy Pauper: Slivers Landfall EDH: Sliver Overlord
1000th post on 2-1-10. 5000th post on 1-21-13.
For one, play Feeling of Dread. For two, your land count is way too low; the world is not perfect, and you need to make land drops from turn one til forever, especially considering your deck doesn't mulligan well.



Good call on the Feeling of Dread....but prolly not 4...i'm thinking 3....or even 2

As far as the mana goes, I do plan to put another 1 or 2 in

BUT

with all the draw capability with this deck, I don't really need to run more than 22 land.

without the Temporal Mastery the only card more than 5 CMC is Entreat the Angels

and there are only 2 of those, the only card with a CMC of 5 is Tamiyo, the Moon Sage,

and there are only 2 of those.


So

I have 4 cards with a CMC of over 4.....21 lands will do if im bouncing Augur of Bolas while drawing with Jace, Architect of Thought or Sphinx's Revelation or even an Azorius Charm and recasting with Snapcaster Mage
Cut 2 Temporal Mastery for 2 more land
Cut 2 Dissipate for 1 Sycopate and a land
Cut 1 Revalaition for a land
Cut 1 Entreat for a land

That puts you at 24 land (the bare minimum for what you'd want) and ups your odds at short changing Aggro since X = 1 is as good as a hard counter in the early turns when they're trying to curve out.




You disagree with the Feeling of Dread??

I thought it could def. help out in those early hands and even later on to get through for the kill
Cut 2 Temporal Mastery for 2 more land
Cut 2 Dissipate for 1 Sycopate and a land
Cut 1 Revalaition for a land
Cut 1 Entreat for a land

That puts you at 24 land (the bare minimum for what you'd want) and ups your odds at short changing Aggro since X = 1 is as good as a hard counter in the early turns when they're trying to curve out.




You disagree with the Feeling of Dread

I thought it could def. help out in those early hands and even later on to get through for the kill 



No, I don't disagree, I'm just saying I've stumpled many games because some Blue player fired a Sycopate at one of my early plays for X = 1.  If you can find the room, you should probably run 3 Feeling of Dread as well.  It'll give you the time you need to dig for a board wipe.

My Decks
Standard: BR Aggro Burn RDW Modern: Dragon Stompy Burn Fae Tempo Zoo Cherrios Legacy: Zoo Dragon Stompy Pauper: Slivers Landfall EDH: Sliver Overlord
1000th post on 2-1-10. 5000th post on 1-21-13.
Cut 2 Temporal Mastery for 2 more land
Cut 2 Dissipate for 1 Sycopate and a land
Cut 1 Revalaition for a land
Cut 1 Entreat for a land

That puts you at 24 land (the bare minimum for what you'd want) and ups your odds at short changing Aggro since X = 1 is as good as a hard counter in the early turns when they're trying to curve out.




You disagree with the Feeling of Dread

I thought it could def. help out in those early hands and even later on to get through for the kill 



No, I don't disagree, I'm just saying I've stumpled many games because some Blue player fired a Sycopate at one of my early plays for X = 1.  If you can find the room, you should probably run 3 Feeling of Dread as well.  It'll give you the time you need to dig for a board wipe.




Yeah i'm def thinking the 3 feeling of dread and another syncopate, I have had plenty of early game situations where either 1 would have helped out....Thinking that the Sphinx's Revelation can prolly go too.....maybe to the sideboard...I would rather draw the feeling of dread

I'll let ya'll know how it goes...I have a standard FNM, Saturday Standard Grand Prix Qualifier and Sunday Standard Tourneys to try it out...
I personally wouldn't cut Sphinx's Revelation, as it is just really good at the moment. I would sooner cut 1 or 2 of Detention Sphere as running it as a 4 of probably isn't really necessary unless you are playing in a local meta with a ton of creature redundancy (token decks are a good example of this).

I am also not a huge fan of Entreat the Angels as a finisher, while definitely a good card, it is just terrible against most of the meta at the moment, what with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Sever the Bloodline, and Terminus all being played quite heavily.

Angel of Serenity is definitely something worth looking into. It's a little on the expensive side, but the thing just oozes value and has, for the most part, become the finisher of choice for most Control decks.

I also second Temporal Mastery getting the ax. Without a way to reliably abuse it (like in the EE decks) it just has way too much variance to be worth including, at least as far as I am concerned.
"I have existed from the morning of the world and I shall exist until the last star falls from the night. Although I have taken the form of Gaius Caligula, I am all men as I am no man and therefore I am a God."
For one, play Feeling of Dread. For two, your land count is way too low; the world is not perfect, and you need to make land drops from turn one til forever, especially considering your deck doesn't mulligan well.



with all the draw capability with this deck, I don't really need to run more than 22 land.



Yes you do.

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Draw capability really has nothing to do with your mana. Id prefer to sit pretty with enough land and draw into my threats/answers. Also, Sphinx's Revelation is good, but it needs land to get value, otherwise it is just an expensive Think Twice. Speaking of which i reccomend it as some good drawing power.
100th post on 5/29/12 500th post on 8/20/12
Draw capability really has nothing to do with your mana. Id prefer to sit pretty with enough land and draw into my threats/answers. Also, Sphinx's Revelation is good, but it needs land to get value, otherwise it is just an expensive Think Twice. Speaking of which i reccomend it as some good drawing power.




I concidered Think Twice but I believe it is more beneficial for a U/W deck that is pure control, i.e. less creature spells/more counter spells/more denial/different win condition than my deck

Where-as I am using creature's for drawing  and abilities to get more mileage out of my instants and sorcery's and card advantage. In its current version my deck is using those creatures and Entreat the Angels as the win condition while denying my opponent with detention sphere,counter spells and board clearer's.

I'm concidering changing out the Entreat the Angels for Angel of Serenity though......Entreat is starting to seem quite a bit more vulnerable than Serenity....
I ended up in 1st place with this deck in FNM...No Entreat's....2 Angel of Serenity....Brought the mana up to 23.....
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I am also not a huge fan of Entreat the Angels as a finisher, while definitely a good card, it is just terrible against most of the meta at the moment, what with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Sever the Bloodline, and Terminus all being played quite heavily.

Angel of Serenity is definitely something worth looking into. It's a little on the expensive side, but the thing just oozes value and has, for the most part, become the finisher of choice for most Control decks.



How is Angel of Serenity any less vulnerable to any of those spells than Angel tokens?

I've gotten beaten down by Entreat the Angels more than once; Angel of Serenity is much easier to cope with. I do realize Serenity has an awesome enters-the-board effect, and it may be worth using her instead of Entreat, but Entreat can be miracled on you opponents turn if you're running any draw.

In that last case, I think I would go with Entreat, absent any ability to draw on the opponents turn, maybe not. I guess what I'm saying is, Entreat is only a bomb with the miracle. With the miracle, it's hard to compare with it.

..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />I am also not a huge fan of Entreat the Angels as a finisher, while definitely a good card, it is just terrible against most of the meta at the moment, what with Detention Sphere, Supreme Verdict, Sever the Bloodline, and Terminus all being played quite heavily.

Angel of Serenity is definitely something worth looking into. It's a little on the expensive side, but the thing just oozes value and has, for the most part, become the finisher of choice for most Control decks.



How is Angel of Serenity any less vulnerable to any of those spells than Angel tokens?

I've gotten beaten down by Entreat the Angels more than once; Angel of Serenity is much easier to cope with. I do realize Serenity has an awesome enters-the-board effect, and it may be worth using her instead of Entreat, but Entreat can be miracled on you opponents turn if you're running any draw.

In that last case, I think I would go with Entreat, absent any ability to draw on the opponents turn, maybe not. I guess what I'm saying is, Entreat is only a bomb with the miracle. With the miracle, it's hard to compare with it.



Angle of Serenity seems less vulnerable & more useful in a couple areas.

1.) You can exile creatures in your own graveyard, so if Angel of Serenity is exiled or killed they come into play. This is going to mean your opponent is not going to want to D-Sphere,Supreme Verdict etc...Before he/she is able to deal with the creatures that come into play if Angel of Serentiy leaves. Your opponent is also not going to want to block with a larger creature and will either take the 5 every turn (which turns Angel of Serenity into a game clock) or lose a smaller flyer every turn (and how long are they going to be able to do that)

2.) Angel of Serenity can exile your opponents creatures.....Thragtusk and his minions got you down...say bye to 3 of them.....Opens the door for your other creatures....

3.) If you exile your own creatures and they come into play. They will most often NOT all have the same card name (unlike with entreat the angels, which makes entreat very vulnerable to detention sphere or sever the bloodline)

4.) Angel of Serenty can be played effectivly sooner than Entreat the Angels, sure its 7 mana, but it can give you 4 creatures or 1 creature and 3 removal...2 creatures and 2 removal....its very versatile....a 4 angel Entreat will cost you 11 mana..or 6 with miracle and has no option for removal...but with most decks playing only 2 Entreat the Angels a miracle is very unlikely, and if you playing "draw-go" it is even more likely becuase miracle has to be the "first" card you draw this turn.
Try playing more azorius charm, it's helpful for slowing down the early game of enemy decks so that you an get your big fat finishers out, and in the control matchup, you can always just cycle it if necessary.

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

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139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
Try playing more azorius charm, it's helpful for slowing down the early game of enemy decks so that you an get your big fat finishers out, and in the control matchup, you can always just cycle it if necessary.


I already play 4 azorius charm for just those reasons

Angle of Serenity seems less vulnerable & more useful in a couple areas.



More useful perhaps, but one creature is more vulnerable than several and less effective in terms of combat.


but with most decks playing only 2 Entreat the Angels a miracle is very unlikely, and if you playing "draw-go" it is even more likely becuase miracle has to be the "first" card you draw this turn.



Fewer cards would seem to increase the chance of drawing it as a miracle - if it's drawn at all. Sorcery-based draw spoils the chances, but instant-based draw improves them.

Serenity helps with control, but creatures doing damage wins.
lol @ creatures doing damage wins....

sometimes.....

In this peticular deck, yes the win condition is creature based damage..

As for the Entreat vs. Angel of Serenity debate, well in the last 2 weeks I have played both ways and with both at the same time...

My experiance has been that Angel of Serenity is doing better right now.

I had a difficult time pulling off entreat and when I did it got ate up pretty quick....Serenity gets ate up and I can pull her out of the graveyard with another serenity. Or if she gets ate up while in play, im often rewarded with a smorgasboard of my own creatures put directly into play. 

My experiance has been that Angel of Serenity is doing better right now.

I had a difficult time pulling off entreat and when I did it got ate up pretty quick....Serenity gets ate up and I can pull her out of the graveyard with another serenity. Or if she gets ate up while in play, im often rewarded with a smorgasboard of my own creatures put directly into play. 



I'm not really arguing that Entreat is "better"; it's better at beating face - especially when it's cast for it's miracle cost. They are probably best suited to different decks.

The ability to pull Serenity out of the graveyard is noteable, I suppose, but who ever gets to cast two? I suppose it happens.

On the other hand, it's not that difficult to get an Entreat out of the graveyard either, but that's not a miracle so I will concede that this is a point for Serenity. There are of course, also cheap ways of casting beefy creatures out of a graveyard, but that's another sort of deck altogether.

Try playing more azorius charm, it's helpful for slowing down the early game of enemy decks so that you an get your big fat finishers out, and in the control matchup, you can always just cycle it if necessary.


I already play 4 azorius charm for just those reasons


oops.  Could we I see your decklist so that that doesn't happen again?

Why does everyone think I'm phantom lancer? QFT:

Show
139359831 wrote:
I hope all this helps you to see things in a greater light—and understand that Magic: the Gathering was really created by extraterrestials using Richard Garfield as a medium. The game itself reflects the socio-psycho realtivity between living beings, and the science that takes precedence over them—to define reality for them all (like telekinesis, weather, scientific reaction, phenomenon, ingenuity, how the brain works, etc.). I'd also bet there is an entity floating thousands of miles above us, looking down on the current state of game, shaking its fist like... "Wtf are you doing?! You're getting it all screwed up!". Awkward—to be evolved, and yet still subject to the ladder that is the concepts of the game. In this case, misconception, corruption, and deception. With the realities of each color becoming distorted (through oblivious designers), leading the game to reflect a false state of reality that warps the understanding that other people have about those things. For example, people thinking that white could be anything except pure good. This shouldn't be too far off though, I mean...Magic is designed based on reality after all, so that entity (those entities) should be subject to those things. Anyways, I guess when you're busy doing space stuff you can't always be around to ensure quality control. It's no wonder they choose Garfield, they're so much alike; that's exactly what happened to him and Magic.
166199665 wrote:
omg snortng so much febbdelicious /intocixated in rl
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