Deadly Strike, Flurry of Blows, and Sneak Attack.

So, after taking a look, why is it that Deadly Strike is just purely better than Sneak Attack and Flurry of Blows? They all have the same extra damage, except the Rogue has the penalty of only being able to use it with Advantage or "flanking," and the Monk has to make extra attack rolls for each die, where the fighter's is just a straight up ++Damage. Is there some balancing factor I'm missing?
Nope, this is the essential failure of trying to use the same mechanic in the same way for three disparate classes. 

 
The balancing factor is in the other abilities the other classes have. The monk has the ability to self heal while the fighter doesn't. The rogue has skill mastery, which makes him unlikely to ever fail at a skill challenge. Need to climb up a wall? Better off being a rogue instead of a fighter. Classes don't have to do the same amount of damage.

With that said sneak attack needs work
IMHO it seems like Flurry of Blows is a better version of Whirlwind Attack. It's not really comparable to Deadly Strike.

Sneak Attack does indeed need work.
I mean the CE dice as a whole not the individual maneuvers.

Flurry specifically negates the bonus damage you speak of Plague.


I think both SA and FoB need to be taken off the ED system.

Rogue and monk can use ED for maneuvers and stuff but should probably have a slower dice progression.
Nope, this is the essential failure of trying to use the same mechanic in the same way for three disparate classes.



This.

I'd also like to point out how nonsensical flurry of blows gets at higher levels. At level 10, a monk is doing 4 attacks, the first of which deals 1d6 + dex mod damage, and the other three deal... 1d10? Why should these attacks deal totally different damage even though they're made with the same weapon? This is the kind of silly, abritrary nonsense you get when you try and force everyone to conform to the same mechanic.

The problem right now is that the maneuvers are totally tied to the dice, so every class has to use the same dice or it doesn't work. They should make a maneuver/power system that works without any kind of expertise dice being involved, and let a fighter's CE or rogue's sneak attack add damage or bonuses to some of those maneuvers.
IMHO it seems like Flurry of Blows is a better version of Whirlwind Attack. It's not really comparable to Deadly Strike.

Sneak Attack does indeed need work.



Yeah, but Deadly Attack is on the Monk list.  DA with FoB will probably give a Monk a more reliable DPS.  Of course, that might fall under the whole Char-Op thing. 

Basically, the Monk uses DA if he hits.  If he doesn't, he keeps some DPS by using FoB...  But then, DA becomes a must have manuever for the Monk.  That's not necessarily a good direction to go either. 

I still like ED; however, it needs some definite tweaking at this point of the playtest.   
Sneak Attack should never be Suck Attack, but I expect to see this amended in the next package.

Flurry of Blows is underpowered, but at least they aren't penalizing the attacks any more. This puts it closer to a desirable power level.
I think the crux of the issue is there's a reasonable sentiment that flurry should be the monk's main attack. Deadly strike's presence is actually misplaced and a fair few people have mentioned that it shouldn't be on a monk maneuver at all any more than flurry should be a fighter maneuver.
Yeah, but Deadly Attack is on the Monk list.  DA with FoB will probably give a Monk a more reliable DPS.


The damage from Deadly Strike can't be added to Flurry of Blow attack because its a bonus damage, which is strictly prohibited.
Iany more than flurry should be a fighter maneuver.


I think Flurry of Blows (or something essentially the same, but without the "unarmed only" limitation) should be a fighter maneuver.  Maybe give him a single-target-only version of it (with the above changes as well).
Feedback Disclaimer
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I agre. I'd vote for calling it Rain of Blows, like the legendary Fighter multiattack exploit. Wink

I have no objections to a fighter having a flurry like ability, but I'd like the distinction to remain with deadly strike being the fighter's go-to maneuver for more damage and flurry being the monk's "more damage" move.


For that to happen, flurry needs to be brought to equal footing with deadly strike (I'm not convinced that the mechanics are right either), deadly strike either removed from the list or otherwise sidelined and fighters should have something like the version of flurry we have now.


Actually this is totally weird but I actually don't mind flurry as it's written as a fighter maneuver with a name like "rain of blows".


Somehow, the context shifting to a fighter ability makes it OK. Weird, isn't it?

Yeah, but Deadly Attack is on the Monk list.  DA with FoB will probably give a Monk a more reliable DPS.


The damage from Deadly Strike can't be added to Flurry of Blow attack because its a bonus damage, which is strictly prohibited.



Not what I'm saying.  You attack with the intention of putting all the ED into DA; just like a fighter.  If you miss, you use your FoB.  That ensures your overall DPS stays higher than a fighter. 
Shouldn't you have to declare what you're doing before your attack roll?
No you can declare you use Deadly Strike only after you hit.
Shouldn't you have to declare what you're doing before your attack roll?



You don't declare for DA.  Nothing in the text suggests that you must declare for FoB.
Shouldn't you have to declare what you're doing before your attack roll?



You don't declare for DA.  Nothing in the text suggests that you must declare for FoB.



Then I see no reason to use flurry at all unless I miss my initial strike, and then it's more of a consolation prize. It does depend a bit on monster hit points but I'm assuming that the target is meaningful - that is, worthy of using a maneuver against in the first place.


Flurry, then, can only be assumed to be a cleave-like maneuver or "accuracy insurance". I can't do my 1d6+5+2d10 damage, but I can at least reroll for 1d10.


I dunno, it just feels like an afterthought at that point.

This is the monk we should have got:

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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1-4E play style
The 4E play style is a high action cinematic style of play where characters worry less about being killed in one hit and more about strategy and what their next move is and the one after it. The players talk back and forth about planning a battle and who can do what to influence the outcome. 4E play is filled with cinematic over the top action. An Eladrin teleports out of the grip of the Ogre. The Fighter slams the dragons foot with his hammer causing it to rear up and stagger back in pain. The Cleric creates a holy zone where their allies weapons are guided to their targets and whenever an enemy dies the Clerics allies are healed. 4E is about knowing when to lauch your nova attack, whether its a huge arcane spell that causes enemies to whirl around in a chaotic storm, or if its a trained adrenaline surge that causes you to attack many many times with two weapons on a single target, or a surge of adrenaline that keeps you going though you should already be dead. Its about tactics and the inability to carry around a bag of potions or a few wands and never have to worry about healing. Its about the guy that can barely role play having the same chance to convince the king to aid the group as the guy that takes improv acting classes and regularly stars as an extra on movies.
Stormwind Fallacy
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa. Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game. Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse role player if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically role played better than an optimized one, and vice versa. ...[aside]... Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's game play. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Role playing deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other. Claiming that an optimizer cannot role play (or is participating in a play style that isn't supportive of role playing) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.
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I like the concept of trading out dice for extra effects, and I would like to see it extended to flurry of blows, where you may trade extra attacks for more damage with a kick with extended reach, or bonus to AC, or a nerve hit. Basically take a look at the AD&D Oriental Adventures martial arts. Not every monk wants to be restricted to just fast attacks. Some will like to grapple, while others like to focus on kicks, etc. The advantage of this approach is you can bring some other concepts into the fold like wrestling. So in that respect it would mimic fighter styles, but instead call it schools. Where fighters tend to focus on technology as a means to an end, i.e. weapons and armor, the monk takes the approach of weapons and armor being an extension of the body, or in moderm terms as training methods to strengthen the body like weight training.
DS and FOB don't have to perform the same function.  It's okay for them to be situationally superior.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
You're missing another situation where FoB is superior: when your basic damage is enough to kill the target.  So basically, FoB is worse than DA when you hit your target and it doesn't die, but effectively rolls DA, a better glancing blow, and whirlwind into a single maneuver.  So it may be better overall given how few maneuvers you get.  
You're missing another situation where FoB is superior: when your basic damage is enough to kill the target.  So basically, FoB is worse than DA when you hit your target and it doesn't die, but effectively rolls DA, a better glancing blow, and whirlwind into a single maneuver.  So it may be better overall given how few maneuvers you get.  


I find that form of superiority exceedingly lame. Basically that means "on mobs that don't matter, I can choose to use this maneuver" to me.
why is it that Deadly Strike is just purely better than Sneak Attack and Flurry of Blows?


By my maths Flurry of Blows is equal or better to Deadly Strike, depending on how you interpret the extra Critical Damage rule.

I have only calculated this out for one set of assumptions, may not be true at all character levels, combinations, etc. Assume a monk has access to both Flurry of Blows and Deadly Strike, this isn't comparing Monk vs Fighter. Of course there may be flaws in my logic or maths.

Target AC 18
Monk Level 4 - Hit Bonus +7, Weapon Damage d6+3, Critical Damage 3d6, Expertise Dice 2d6

with Deadly Strike, 7.65 average damage
1-10 = miss
11-19 = hit for (d6+3+2d6) 13.5 average damage
20 = critical for (6+3+12+3d6) 31.5 average damage

with Flurry, 8.7 average damage (if Flurry attacks can crit)
main attack
1-10 = miss
11-19 = hit for (d6+3) 6.5 average damage
20 = critical for (6+3+3d6) 19.5 average damage
2x flurry attack
1-10 = miss
11-19 = hit for (d6) 3.5 average damage
20 = critical for (6+3d6) 16.5 average damage

One thing which is unclear is whether the 3d6 critical adds onto a Flurry attack. Flurry rules say "add no bonuses to the damage". Interestingly, repeating the maths without allowing Flurry attacks to include that extra critical damage gives precisely the same average damage as the Deadly Strike scenario.

with Flurry, 7.65 average damage (if Flurry attacks cannot crit)
main attack
1-10 = miss
11-19 = hit for (d6+3) 6.5 average damage
20 = critical for (6+3+3d6) 19.5 average damage
2x flurry attack
1-10 = miss
11-19 = hit for (d6) 3.5 average damage
20 = critical for (6) 6 average damage
Critical hits do not add damage to additional attacks from flurry of blows.

How to play pdf > Damage rolls > critical hits :
[…] " In addition, some abilities give you extra damage represented by bonus dice." 

It's not the most exciting maneuver.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

^What luke_twigger said.  The base damage is exactly the same.

Flurry won't overkill, so it's best.  If you get crit bonuses, then it's alot better.
Deadly strike is more all or nothing.
Sneak attack has extra restrictions so it's worse.



Having both will give you a damage advantage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Oh, the one benifit deadly strike has over FOB is that it's not weapon restricted.  You can use deadly strike with a 2-hander, which will boost damage.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Oh, the one benifit deadly strike has over FOB is that it's not weapon restricted.  You can use deadly strike with a 2-hander, which will boost damage.




True. This of couse accounts for a maximum differential of +3.5 extra dmg a turn, which is perhaps sizeable at low level, but not relevent at higher levels. I think that the benefit is mitigated by the ability monks have to get past resistances.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.

If an ally is on an ennemy within your reach, you will want to strike it hard to kill the target and allaw the ally to help you with the other enemies around you. And if you miss, you are still able to use Flurry of Blows.

The situation makes the best power, not mathematics in a vacuum.

If you think my english is bad, just wait until you see my spanish and my italian. Defiling languages is an art.

If an ally is on an ennemy within your reach, you will want to strike it hard to kill the target and allaw the ally to help you with the other enemies around you. And if you miss, you are still able to use Flurry of Blows.

The situation makes the best power, not mathematics in a vacuum.




I get that there might be situational benefits to either manuever. Most of those situational benefits make FoB be better then deadly strike. FoB is more versatile.

I look at it like Monks get a better manuever than a fighter because a fighter gets better damage (weapon damage that is).



 

My mind is a deal-breaker.

Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.




Not quite true.  Yes, having to hit separately has no effect on damage output (.5*10 = .5*5+.5*5).  There is a substantial and important difference though: if you have DA and you miss you can still spend your expertise dice to do something else, like glancing blow.  If you use flurry and you miss, you get nothing.  That makes DA better if you only want to hit one guy and you know he has enough HP to need all the damage. 

Let's assume you hit 60% of the time, crit 5%, and have a +8 to attack at level 4 for a 30% chance of glancing blow

If you have DA and Glancing blow
Hit: 1d8+4+2d6 = 15.5, DPR 9.3
Miss: 2d6 = 7, DPR 2.1
Crit: 8+4+12 + 3d6 = 34.5, DPR 1.725
Total: 13.125

If you have flurry
Hit (main): 1d6+4 = 7.5, DPR 4.5
Miss: 0
Crit: 6+4+3d6 = 20.5, DPR 1.025
Hit (each flurry): 1d6 = 3.5, DPR 2.1
Miss: 0
Crit (if allowed): 6+3d6 = 16.5, DPR .825
Crit (if not allowed): 6, DPR .3
Total: 11.375 (if crits are allowed), 10.325 (if they aren't)

So yes, DA is better IF you gain no benefit from other uses of dice or from spreading damage, even if you can crit with your extra blows and even if you don't give the fighter credit for bigger weapon dice (which I did, a little, but fighter DPR would lose only .7 from using a d6).  Of course, that would require you to take extra maneuvers so you have something else to do with your dice (losing out on things like mighty exertion), and to have a high HP target in front of you that you want to focus on.  FoB has more versatility (including from the fact that you have space for more maneuvers), but DA is better if all you care about is single target DPS.  Isn't balancing based solely on single target DPS what everyone is complaining about from 4e?

It's worth noting that a simple fix (if you think it needs fixing) would be to make FoB "reliable," such that if you miss the die is not expended (but cannot be used to make additional flurries).  Do that, and you really do get zero cost of having to make separate attack rolls.
Oh, the one benifit deadly strike has over FOB is that it's not weapon restricted.  You can use deadly strike with a 2-hander, which will boost damage.



FOB shouldn't be weapon restricted.  That's the actual solution.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Shouldn't you have to declare what you're doing before your attack roll?



You don't declare for DA.  Nothing in the text suggests that you must declare for FoB.



Then I see no reason to use flurry at all unless I miss my initial strike, and then it's more of a consolation prize. It does depend a bit on monster hit points but I'm assuming that the target is meaningful - that is, worthy of using a maneuver against in the first place.


Flurry, then, can only be assumed to be a cleave-like maneuver or "accuracy insurance". I can't do my 1d6+5+2d10 damage, but I can at least reroll for 1d10.


I dunno, it just feels like an afterthought at that point.




Mitigating misses is just as important as calculating damage on a hit especially in a game where hit probability is below 90%.  From a pure number standpoint, Glancing Blow (the fighter's afterthough) will only do 1 ED; however, I'll admit it is automatic if the conditions are met.  The conditions are higher than just missing though.  The monk's afterthought gets a chance at X ED.  While it is a more variable probability, it has a higher probability of having a higher DPS in comparison. 

This stuff might be an afterthought to you, but I pretty sure a min-maxer is going to look long and hard at those numbers in light of the bounded accuracy premise of DDN. 
Go ask anyone playing a 4e Avenger if mitigating misses is worth doing.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Go ask anyone playing a 4e Avenger if mitigating misses is worth doing.



Mitigating misses may be irrelevant for those with a to-hit percentage of over 85% (number based simply on my personal experience, not any calculations). The same cannot be said for those with a 50-60% hit chance.
Monsters are currently broken.  Do not use the current stats as justification for design choices.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.

+1

Please introduce yourself to the new D&D 5e forums in this very friendly thread started by Pukunui!

 

Make 5e Saving Throws better using Ramzour's Six Ability Save System!

 

Lost Mine of Phandelver: || Problems and Ideas with the adventure ||  Finding the Ghost of Neverwinter Wood ||

Giving classes iconic abilities that don't break the game: Ramzour's Class Defining Ability system.

Rules for a simple non-XP based leveling up system, using the Proficiency Bonus

 

Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.




Not quite true.  Yes, having to hit separately has no effect on damage output (.5*10 = .5*5+.5*5).  There is a substantial and important difference though: if you have DA and you miss you can still spend your expertise dice to do something else, like glancing blow.  If you use flurry and you miss, you get nothing.  That makes DA better if you only want to hit one guy and you know he has enough HP to need all the damage. 

Let's assume you hit 60% of the time, crit 5%, and have a +8 to attack at level 4 for a 30% chance of glancing blow

If you have DA and Glancing blow
Hit: 1d8+4+2d6 = 15.5, DPR 9.3
Miss: 2d6 = 7, DPR 2.1
Crit: 8+4+12 + 3d6 = 34.5, DPR 1.725
Total: 13.125

If you have flurry
Hit (main): 1d6+4 = 7.5, DPR 4.5
Miss: 0
Crit: 6+4+3d6 = 20.5, DPR 1.025
Hit (each flurry): 1d6 = 3.5, DPR 2.1
Miss: 0
Crit (if allowed): 6+3d6 = 16.5, DPR .825
Crit (if not allowed): 6, DPR .3
Total: 11.375 (if crits are allowed), 10.325 (if they aren't)

So yes, DA is better IF you gain no benefit from other uses of dice or from spreading damage, even if you can crit with your extra blows and even if you don't give the fighter credit for bigger weapon dice (which I did, a little, but fighter DPR would lose only .7 from using a d6).  Of course, that would require you to take extra maneuvers so you have something else to do with your dice (losing out on things like mighty exertion), and to have a high HP target in front of you that you want to focus on.  FoB has more versatility (including from the fact that you have space for more maneuvers), but DA is better if all you care about is single target DPS.  Isn't balancing based solely on single target DPS what everyone is complaining about from 4e?

It's worth noting that a simple fix (if you think it needs fixing) would be to make FoB "reliable," such that if you miss the die is not expended (but cannot be used to make additional flurries).  Do that, and you really do get zero cost of having to make separate attack rolls.




A couple of things wrong with this. First off, we are comparing FoB to DS, not DS + GB to FoB. I agree with you that 2 mauevers are better than 1. FoB doesn't prevent a monk from taking other manuevers. All you have done is prove that situtionally there will be times when two manuevers used in combination are better then FoB.

My mind is a deal-breaker.

FoB + DS + GB > any 1 or 2 of them by themselves.

Sneak attack is the only one that won't actually add anything.

guides
List of no-action attacks.
Dynamic vs Static Bonuses
Phalanx tactics and builds
Crivens! A Pictsies Guide Good
Power
s to intentionally miss with
Mr. Cellophane: How to be unnoticed
Way's to fire around corners
Crits: what their really worth
Retroactive bonus vs Static bonus.
Runepriest handbook & discussion thread
Holy Symbols to hang around your neck
Ways to Gain or Downgrade Actions
List of bonuses to saving throws
The Ghost with the Most (revenant handbook)
my builds
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.

Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.

Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.

King Fisher Optimized net user.  Moderate.

Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.

Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.

Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.

Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.

Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.

Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.

Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.

Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.

Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.  One of THE most abusive character in 4e.

Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.

Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.

Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.

Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.

Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.

The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.

Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power.

Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken.

Rune of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.

Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.

Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.

Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight with items, making it far more broken.

Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.

Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.

Flurry of blows IS better then deadly strike. I would go so far as to say substantially better then Deadly Strike AND whirlwind attack, and better yet its one manuever with similiar benefits of both

Aside from having a higher damage potential, it has a much more stable accuracy boost, allows the monk to compartmentalize damage to reduce over-kill, and allows for spreading out attack over multiple targets.

The only variable that boost a fighter over a monk in this regard is higher Damage weapons and an xtra attack at level 6.

If you don't understand that fact, you don't understand the mathematics of how it works. Sneak attack IS worse overall then both. I would like to see someone mathematically prove me wrong, but at the moment I don't have the time to entreat naysayers to the mathematical proof. I will this evening if people request it of me, and it hasn't been proven already.




Not quite true.  Yes, having to hit separately has no effect on damage output (.5*10 = .5*5+.5*5).  There is a substantial and important difference though: if you have DA and you miss you can still spend your expertise dice to do something else, like glancing blow.  If you use flurry and you miss, you get nothing.  That makes DA better if you only want to hit one guy and you know he has enough HP to need all the damage. 

Let's assume you hit 60% of the time, crit 5%, and have a +8 to attack at level 4 for a 30% chance of glancing blow

If you have DA and Glancing blow
Hit: 1d8+4+2d6 = 15.5, DPR 9.3
Miss: 2d6 = 7, DPR 2.1
Crit: 8+4+12 + 3d6 = 34.5, DPR 1.725
Total: 13.125

If you have flurry
Hit (main): 1d6+4 = 7.5, DPR 4.5
Miss: 0
Crit: 6+4+3d6 = 20.5, DPR 1.025
Hit (each flurry): 1d6 = 3.5, DPR 2.1
Miss: 0
Crit (if allowed): 6+3d6 = 16.5, DPR .825
Crit (if not allowed): 6, DPR .3
Total: 11.375 (if crits are allowed), 10.325 (if they aren't)

So yes, DA is better IF you gain no benefit from other uses of dice or from spreading damage, even if you can crit with your extra blows and even if you don't give the fighter credit for bigger weapon dice (which I did, a little, but fighter DPR would lose only .7 from using a d6).  Of course, that would require you to take extra maneuvers so you have something else to do with your dice (losing out on things like mighty exertion), and to have a high HP target in front of you that you want to focus on.  FoB has more versatility (including from the fact that you have space for more maneuvers), but DA is better if all you care about is single target DPS.  Isn't balancing based solely on single target DPS what everyone is complaining about from 4e?

It's worth noting that a simple fix (if you think it needs fixing) would be to make FoB "reliable," such that if you miss the die is not expended (but cannot be used to make additional flurries).  Do that, and you really do get zero cost of having to make separate attack rolls.




A couple of things wrong with this. First off, we are comparing FoB to DS, not DS + GB to FoB. I agree with you that 2 mauevers are better than 1. FoB doesn't prevent a monk from taking other manuevers. All you have done is prove that situtionally there will be times when two manuevers used in combination are better then FoB.




Basically


DS > FoB
DS + FoB > DS + GB. 


in most cases...

    
In addition, DS is a requirement for Fighter; FoB is a requirement for Monk. 

DS is a no brainer option for Monk; GB isn't an obvious no-brainer option for fighter. 
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