can someone help with a D&D3.5 wizard type ECL 24 build?

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Yeah I know ECL 24 is crazy. But I am very excited and got pigeonholed a lot by the choices. I am making a wizard type guy, can some one help me with it? I know it will be focused specialist, with some levels of archmage. But what else to throw in? Also, DM is very experienced and strict on "broken things", so I am making a powerful but not broken char.

Thanks a lot!

Chaoz 
You know, with 24 levels to play with and wanting a super spellcaster I'd play around with the Ultimate Magus or maybe even another double casting combo as you have four more levels to get one side to 20th-level casting.  I wonder about a Beguiler2/Wiz3/UM10/AbC5/AM4 which should have 21st-level wizard spellcasting, 10th-level Beguiler spellcasting, +4 Caster level on each from UM and possibly another +2 or +4 from Practiced Spellcaster; I choose Beguiler for synergy with INT and pushed it to 10th-level spellcasting for its 5th-level spell slots and access to all of its 5th-level spell list.

As for making a "powerful but not broken characters" I'd just say you are trying to max out a full caster who can be "broken" without doing a lot to its build.
 

Since you're starting at level 24, you can lose 4 levels of casting progression without any loss of spells per day. You do wind up with a lower caster level, but you can take the practiced spellcaster feat to make that up.


The pale master prestige class (Libris Mortis) gives you full undead immunities without actually making you undead. The only better set of immunities goes to constructs. Undead are only immune to damage to physical ability scores. Constructs are immune to damage to all ability scores. Both are immune to all ability drain.


I'm not normally a fan of the green star adept prestige class, since it causes you to lose 5 levels of spellcasting, but it might work here. The class turns you into a construct at level 10, except you don't get the normal immunity to mind-affecting effects.


I'd suggest the warforged juggernaut prestige class (Eberron Campaign Setting) if I could think of a way around the 35% arcane spell failure chance imposed by one of the prerequisite feats.

I don't know what kind of Focused Specialist you are, but if you really want to take Archmage levels, then go with Focused Abjurer -> Master Specialist -> Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil -> Archmage

IotSV is a REALLY great PrC, and Master Abjurer gets really good abilities, including casting Personal Range spells as touch spells, then Archmage turns it into ranged touch/ray spells!

The suggestions from StevenO and Maat_Mons are great too (i just don't know about Warforged Juggernaut, i mean, you get all those immunities, but if you are Warforged you lose 1 caster level already counting with Practiced Spellcaster feat, if you are Human and go with Renegade Mastermaker -> Warforged Juggernaut then you lose 3 caster level already counting with the aforementioned feat).

If you follow the StevenO's tips take at least one level of Spellthief and the Master Spellthief feat.
Here's one to throw into the hat, Swiftblade (it's official wizards, but not in paper, web content only). You could do something like Wizard 6/Swiftblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/+8 Swiftblade... and whatever you do after that is pretty well golden. If you can take Epic Abjurant Champion levels and only advance existing level dependant abilities do it, I'd say. Be a Transmuter and don't give up Abjuration.

The reason I suggest this build is simple, action economy.  You get a swift action to cast haste or an abjuration with each round at no additional resource cost, and then you've got a full round (or move and standard), as well as another Standard to do whatever you want with. Flexibility is why wizards win. I'm not even going to get into the potent defensive abilities that both prcs have access to. You just need a couple simple offensive tricks, maybe using Conjuration, Transmutation and Abjuration to control fights.
You can't do Epic Abjurant Champion progression, since it's only a 5-level class. I don't remember if the DMG requires a PrC to have 10 levels or "at least" 10 levels, but 5 won't cut it.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You can't do Epic Abjurant Champion progression, since it's only a 5-level class. I don't remember if the DMG requires a PrC to have 10 levels or "at least" 10 levels, but 5 won't cut it.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You can't do Epic Abjurant Champion progression, since it's only a 5-level class. I don't remember if the DMG requires a PrC to have 10 levels or "at least" 10 levels, but 5 won't cut it.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
LOL I-Phone posting. DM can always say "sure", generally speaking epic progression in a PRC is as simple as "levels byond the normal limit of the class" and has to be house ruled. It was an "if your GM lets you" statment Draco, not really a big deal if not. But even if all you got was a boost to Abjuration Armor/Shield bonus and increased levels for Auto Swift that would be great, 9 and 9 would be great that way.
Well, if it's not possible progress Abjurant Champion beyond 5, so go with a Epic Swift Blade. About level 10 you lose your fourth and last caster level, which is fixed by Practiced Spellcaster, then starts to take levels beyond 10, i think all of the next levels will increase the spellcaster level.
Yes level 24 is bonkers ... (wink)


Talk Loudly And Carry A Big Stick ... Azuran(human)
Bard 4 / PsyWar 4 Mantled acf / Psychic Theurge 3 / Mind Mage 10 / Psychic Theurge +3
Ask your DM if he thinks 1st level spells with metamagic are too powerful (leading question).
Ask your DM if he thinks 1st level spells as not quite at-wills are too powerful.
After getting a Yes to both ahead of time ... get a Psi recharge set-up going and
get the Cerebremetamagic feat from Dr#349 so every spell is metamagic-ed up
to your max spell/power level.  You have access to all Bard spells and Psi powers
up to level 6, fully metamagic-ed, but mostly out-of-combat.  Your nickname is:  Tool Belt .

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

So wait, 50% miss chance on any single target effect, freedom of movement and maximized time stop is weak? And here I thought getting an extra standard action each turn was kinda cool.
Epic Spellcasting is the ONLY thing that matters at this level. Seriously, the only thing. So, for the sake of the thread, I'll assume you can't have it.

Ignore every suggestion for Swfitblade. It's a weak class, and would give you nothing of value. No, the real build you're going to want is Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Divine Oracle 3/Incantatrix 10/SCM OR some Circle Magic PrC 5. Take Spontaneous Divination ACF.

Shazam! And now you can do everything most of the above builds can do, but better, and you have Mindsight. Also pick up a minor schema of Favor of the Martyr to Persist with Incantatrix.

Other good options involve Dweomerkeeper, Anima Mage, any number of hilarious Theurge builds, even some rather brutal trip-9s builds, or really anything that doesn't involve such shining examples of mediocrity as Swiftblade, or truly awful classes like the Juggernaut or the GSA. There are plenty of great options. Just not those.

Oh, and DM, it's Cerebremancer. Psychic Theurge is Psionic/Divine. 



Swift Blade is not weak, but despite that your suggestions are good, i'll just complement these suggestions:

Replace Mindbender, Divine Oracle, Circle Magic PrC and some others levels. Reasons:

Wizard 3/Sorcerer 1 (or Beguiler or other spontaneous caster, i don't know)/Spellthief 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Incantatrix 9

You lose some nice abilities, but nothing crucial, and if you take Practiced Spellcaster feats and Master Spellthief feat you get past 40th caster level that is the limit of Circle Magic, not just that but Circle Magic is kind hard of happen. What means that in exchange of secondary abilities you improved your mainly ability.

Sorry for the double posting, but if you really want to go with Circle Magic, then this can be useful:

Wizard 10/Beguiler 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Sorcerer 1/Spellthief 1/Red Wizard 10

Now you know spells as a Wizard 20 (the limit of spells know), and can raise all your arcane caster levels to 40, then use the Master Spellthief feat to sum all of them.

Of course you don't need to be Wizard 10, you cant replace some of those levels with a good PrC, the same for Red Wizard (since you don't need Great Circle Leader to go to 40th caster level).
Why is everyone and their dog so obsessed with such mediocre classes

He said his DM wouldn't allow “broken things” without giving any indication of what his DM considers broken. Based on the little information I have, I've guessed that he'll deem all the more powerful abilities to be broken. Dweomerkeeper, epic spellcasting, incantatrix, mindsight, red wizard, and shadowsraft mage are all things I considered but didn't suggest because I assumed they wouldn't be allowed.


In any case, an indication of what the DM considers an appropriate power level would help. So, chaoz, can you tell me how your DM feels about:



  • Getting 10 turns for every 1 other people get? (Planar Shepeherd)

  • Gaining an arbitrarily high casting stat? (Tainted scholar)

  • Removing the xp and gp components of spells? (Dweomerkeeper)


I was going to give more examples, but I'm tired. Can somebody else throw some out?

CJ you're making a lot of arguements that other abilities suck, you're saying what's better. The arguement you're not making is the why. Enlighten those of us stuck in mediocrity. The Shapechange (Choker), and Celerity **** works of course, but Swiftblade can't be dispelled, and nothing stops you from doing all of it if you really want to up your game to casting 5 spells a round (Twin and Repeat spell aside).
Actually, it says "the effect becomes extraordinary rather than a continuous spell effect". So no, disjunction and AMF don't work. I'm not saying you need 5 (premetamagic) spells/turn, I'm just saying that it's really sweet to cast a single third level spell (as a swift action), and gain Freeodom of Movement, Greater Blink, Displacement, a bonus to AC, Attacks and Reflex Saves, and an extra standard action each turn. And no, it cannot be dispelled, in fact you can disjunction or AMF with impunity yourself.

Now that said... IF you bother to take the 10th level (and lose the final caster level), which in an EPIC game I would, you can make that first haste a 4 round time stop by using a 9th if you'd like (As per the 10th level ability), and buff like mad, move around a bit, set up a pile of magicala traps, what have you, discern the location of all your enemies.

Also, it has another nice feature, Casting Stat to Init, which also means you probably act first. And I'm sorry but win more spells are not what wins at this power level, it's rocket tag. Going first, and succesfully locating your opponent in time to tag them frist is what wins.
Mindsight starts getting near useless in an Epic game because everyone and their mother has Mind Blank up and runnign 24/7...at least if they are NPC casters. Any prot/divination neutralizes the ability. Yes, it's great if nobody has defenses. If they do, it's just a line on the paper.

==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
Cyclone_Joker

Uh, no. Hell no.

Look, UM is garbage compared to Circle Magic, and CL is overrated. Mediocre build. Plus, this builld lacks omnicience and mindsight. Both are vastly superior to UM.



UM + Master Spellthief is absolutely better than Circle Magic. Because you don't need peoples giving you spell energy for 1 hour to improve your CL, and because your CL doesn't stack at 40. Actually is possible to combine Circle Magic, multiple Arcane Caster Classes and Master Spellthief, then you get a CL of 40+40+40+40...

Ultimate Magus is just a non-overpowered (and practical) way of using Master Spellthief without resorting to Circle Magic, since his DM won't allow "broken things".

But if Mindsight and Omnicience are so important, it's possible to give up some levels of UM or whatever other thing to fulfill these roles AND Master Spellthief Cheese.

And from what book is Omnicience anyway?

Now I really want to know: Why is everyone and their dog so obsessed with such mediocre classes as UM and Swiftblade. Hell, both are strictly inferior to Mystic Theurge, and it has no class features.



No way Mystic Theurge is superior to Ultimate Magus if the later possess the Master Spellthief feat, since there's no version of this feat for arcane + divine spellcasting (actually there is in a Dragon Magazine, but just works for one spell school for feat, not for ALL your spells from ALL schools).

And you say any Wizard can do the same as Swift Blade just using Celerity and Shapechange, but a Persisted Haste on a Swift Blade will give him 1 extra action like forever (well, you just have to remake this every 24 hour, but until there your Haste don't get dispelled, nulified or disjointed by any means), what is better than using Shapechange for that, AND you can use BOTH this Swift ability and Shapechange to get 2 extra actions.

About Celerity, you don't need to rely on it anymore to act first, you can go first just rolling Initiative and then when it's your enemy's turn you act again now using Celerity (and your wonderful tip about Favor of the Martyr to get rid of Dazle weakness).
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You're all opinion and no citation human wikipedia guy. Give us some actual FACT, notice how most of us quote books or SRD when we make an arguement? You just say "mine's bigger", and that's it, you never give anything more useful than "I hate yours, I have a hard on for this!"
CJ, you're trolling again.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
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56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You're also trolling about a completely different thread :p In this case "Ability X, allows Y, which is fantastic due to reason Z, DO THAT" is a way better argument than "Class A sucks, ability B's a waste of text."
That's a major difference in philosophy we have then. Even the garbage sometimes has some gems in it. I enjoy getting those gems out and making them shine. Right now for example I'm contemplating just how to make Arcane Archer kind of OK (This thanks to the Archery request, low op).
Core and Complete Divine. It's also known as Divine Oraclel+CoP



I still didn't see any Omniciente ability there.

Lemme tell you something: The difference between three full-round actions and four full-round actions and a standard action is negligable at best, especially when Time Stop is on the table. Certainly not worth 10 levels.



It's not negligible, after all each action = one more spell to the victory. And Swift Blade has Time Stop too, and better than the usual.

Can't take immediate actions while flat-footed. Do note that you actually can talk the second combat starts, and then use it since you took a free action, but this is liable to get books thrown at you.



But the Swift Blade won't take any immediate actions while flat-footed, first he will win the Initiative, take his normal actions, then he's not flat-footed anymore and can use Celerity.

And, bro? Initiative means absolutely less than nothing at this level. Contingencies, being a turtle, and so on render the whole thing pointless. Also, an Incantatrix WILL have higher intiative than a swiftblade. Persistomancy is vastly superior to a slight boost from a garbage class.



Swift Blade can have Contingencies and Persistomancy too, but Incantatrix has a lot better time Persisting spells than Swift Blade, so point for you, but if Swift can manage Persist certain spells, this combined with his highly natural initiative makes him go first again, or being neraly-indestructible or whatever you want to persist.
Allow me to rephrase: Superior divination easily bordering on omnicience.



Now i get it, but still, you won't reach Omniscience even with the most powerful divination spells.

And if you need that extra action, you don't deserve to win. Seriously, bro. Totally unneeded.



This was an illogical statement. I could say if you need those persisted spells you don't deserve to win lol. Each build has its own way to the victory, some of them relies more on buffs, some on many actions/spells per round, and so on.

No. The Swiftblade will have inferior initiative. The Incantatrix can use Minor Schemas or some such to have persisted off-list spells, among other things.



The Swift can have Minor Schemas AND natural highly initiative.

Swiftblade just don't have enough useful toys. They got the shiny ones instead of the good ones. And, by the way, I do want to see this hypothetical persisting Swiftblade. Not that it'll even be able to harm an Incantatrix, but I'm curious.



Well, this persisting Swiftblade can be an Incantatrix as well lol, something like:

High Elf Wizard 5/Incantatrix 2/Swift Blade 9/Incantatrix 3-6

Later i may post something more decent, that was just a concept.
Thank you all so much for the information!

Sorry for not putting the definition of "broken" earlier, here is the full set:

0. any WOTC D&D 3.5 materials are allowed, upon DM permission;
1. anything that breaks the action economy is not allowed (no free actions);
2. no DIY classes, feats, spells, items etc, except epic spells;
3. cannot obtain the effect and avoid the usual cost (not free wish, etc);
4. you can operate at most two characters (no circle magic, no 30 solars, etc);
5. cannot change ECL in any ways (no dragonwrought kobold, etc);
6. UA is allowed but needs permission, as well as epic spell development;
7. when use Genesis, the demiplane doesn't have special time traits (no 100 days casting, etc);
8. no Celerity, Synchronicity and traveling back time;
9. 3.0e materials are allowed by permission;

Basically, the only way I can think of to abuse epic level is the epic mage of arcane order.....

Thanks again!
 
You've obviously never read Contact Other Plane



I just did and it's not that big deal.

Do you really not understand how wizards work? Wizards shouldn't need more than one or two actions to kill an opponent. And that's not even getting into the fact that if you can't kill an opponent with four standard actions, five won't make much of a difference, anyways.



Each extra action will make the difference when when you have to kill more than one opponent and each one of them are in completely different sides of the battlefield making you hit each one of them individually or something like that.

But they cannot Persist their Minor Schemas like an Incantatrix. Try to keep up.



They can, but of course it's not with the same ease and such as Incantatrix do.

That is so downright awful I don't know where to even start. That build is absolutely inferior to even a crap build like wizard 10/Incantatrix 10, much less an actually focused build like Wizard 1/Anima Mage 7/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/Sacred Exorcist 1. But if you like wasting 9 levels, have fun with it. Just don't act like it's functional.



Of course it's functional in its niche, that is having nice passive abilities, extra actions, going first, and such that can't be dispelled. The same way your build has the Persisting Buffer/Metamagic Master niche, and of course you can emulate other niches with spells, but you can't persist all of them AND emulating a bunch of niches is not the same as specializing in a few niches.
Dude, end of the day, here's the end to the arguement. Your D&D is a boring game where everyone only ever uses the same two or maybe three classes because they want to WIN. Just let it go already, it's a Role Playing Game, sometimes a class even if sub par can do things the non-sub par class can't do, or can do certain things better. Sometimes that fits someone's idea of fun better, and that player shouldn't be put down for using the class as best they can to do what they want with it.

I have friends that think I overdo the optimization because I'll plan a build out from 1-20 even if I'm pretty sure the game won't last more than a few sessions. I practically never try and make a character that can do everything, or win every encounter because that's just not fun to me, not because I don't know how or couldn't.

Just lighten up already CJ, life is better if you can let go. 
True... You're more like one of those shrill harpies on MSNBC.

Besides, all of this is OVER in the context of this thread, because the OP has added some info; no extra-action cheese is one of them, so no swift blade or incantatrix.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
You're adorable.

Wizards shut down entire battles with one spell. They shouldn't, and don't need the extra action.



And what spell is that?

If you tell me that Wizard is one of the (or even THE) best classes of the game i'll agree with you, but even then there's situations you can't just win with one spell, so you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's say you try an Area Save or Die, but one of the enemies is immune to death effects, or you try some damage, but some enemy is immune to the kind of damage you used, or you try negative levels and someone is immune to that, or you try ability damage/drain, or mind-effect, or stun, or... Let's even say that you try Shapechange yourself into a killing machine and those constructs of the other topic disjoint you lol, and so on, it's impossible to cover ALL situations in just ONE spell, that's why having more actions/spells per round is better in some situations.

Other situation when Swiftblade can be better is when you just woke up, you just prepared your spells, but didn't buffed/persisted yourself yet, and your camp/whatever is getting attacked, then the Swifty is going to win the Initiative and take the better course of actions, and the Incantatrix isn't.

If your DM always let you set up your persisted buffs without an ambush he's just too good lol

And there's the flavor-fluffy thing too, sometimes peoples like to play with something and they try to optimize THAT something, not other something just because it's supposedly better.

A single mid-level Evocation says that no buffs can be dispelled. Try again.



What?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And i won't quote the rest because you don't even try to argue, you just says yours is better.

But the point is:

Incantatrix is better at many niches, and Swifty is better at many others niches, and maybe (probably) Incantatrix is better at many more niches, but if that means to you that all resume to Swifty is garbage compared with Incantatrix, then why don't you just take PunPun?

Everything is garbage compared to it, even your "almighty unbeatable Incantatrix". If you just want to say yours is better do it, take PunPun.
CJ, you've obviously never heard of the Commoner Rail Gun.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
No, don't dispel my tinfoil hat! How else am I going to role play lokiare?!
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
... Oh, and DM, it's Cerebremancer. Psychic Theurge is Psionic/Divine. 


Gah!
Right.

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 



 ... one of those shrill hotties on MSNBC ...



You can always hit the mute button ...

Here comes your 19th forums breakdown ... ohh who's to blame, it ain't 5E driving you insane.

 

That's the point of Wizards! A lot of them! Solid Fog, Force Cage, Stoneshape, and so much more I'm not going to bother going further.



It was what i told, that there's no way of covering ALL situations with ONE spell, there's a spell for each one situation, even the most embracing spell still doesn't cover all situations, and then more actions are welcome to cast more spells that can cover each others weaknesses.

And THAT's why Boccob gave us Time Stop.



Swifty can cast a better Time Stop and before other one one does, unless you have a Persisted spell that makes you go first or if you have a Persisted Time Stop itself lol, but it requires preparation which you won't have always, so there is the situations where each one is better.

In one impossible-to-occur event, a Swiftblade has a tiny, tiny chance of out-performing an Incantatrix. Except, a wizard can buff in one round.



A small shiny light of hope just brightened. Sou you admit there's situations where Swiftblade (not just Swiftblade, but any good class/PrC) can out-perform Incantatrix depending on the niches of the classes being compared and depending on the situations they're going through.

If you LET the DM do that you deserve to be caught unprepared.



Well, he is the DM lol

And a Wizard is a paranoid, crazy super-genius. Massive buff routines, contingencies, and preparations are not out of character.



I never said that all of it is out of character, i just said that sometimes even that is not enough because everything is circumstantial and situational.
The DM doesn't need to be a spiteful bastard to put an Incantatrix (or almost any other class) in a situation where it is inferior compared to Swiftblade (or almost any other class), the DM just needs to be as smart (or smartest) as the player who is using Incantatrix, Swiftblade, preparation, no-need-to-preparation useful abilities, and so on.

Of course certain classes can cover more of the situations a DM can put against players, mainly spellcasters, that's why they're Tier 1, that's the case of both Incantatrix and Swiftblade, so even if Incantatrix being better than Swiftblade (and i do believe that), it still doesn't outclass Swiftblade completely, that's just non-sense of you.
I'm sorry, but could you clearly present a situation with a moderate chance of occurance in which the Swiftblade's 6/10 casting, crappy prerequisites, full BAB *yay?*, and so-so buffs while hasted are better than the insanity that is the Incantatrix? I feel like a few of these would really help your case.
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Except that it's not a garbage class. It's poo compared to a full caster, but for a Gish it's pretty good.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice "My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan This user has been banned from you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
User Quotes
56788208 wrote:
I do, however, have one last lesson on this subject. That last one? The only build in this post that can one-shot average opponents[by dealing twice as much damage as they have HP? I would argue that it is not optimized. Why isn't it optimized? Because it's overkill. Overkill is NOT optimizing. This means that there are portions of this build dedicated to damage which can safely be removed and thrown elsewhere. For example, you probably don't need both Leap Attack AND Headlong Rush at the same time. You could pick up Extra Rage feats for stamina, feats to support AoO effects, feats that work towards potential prestige classes, and so on. However, you could also shift our ability scores around somewhat. I mean, if you're getting results like that with 16 starting Strength, maybe you can lower it to 14, and free up four points to spend somewhere else - perhaps back into Charisma, giving you some oomph for Intimidating Rage or Imperious Command if you want. You can continue to tune this until it deals "enough" damage - and that "enough" does not need to be "100%". It could easily be, say, 80% (leaving the rest to the team), if your DM is the sort who would ban one-hit killers.
Tempest_Stormwind on Character Optimization
So when do you think Bachmann will be saying she met a mother the previous night that had a son who got a blood transfusion using a gay guy's blood, and now the son is retardedly gay?
When she meets CJ's mom?
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Poon Slayer of the House of Trolls
Play gestalt, take Swiftblade on a side, smash the game with Innervated Speed and Perpetual Options? Granted, this could be achieved with Factotum too, except Factotum isn't quite as sustainable for one fight.

Uh, no. Gestalt prevents the taking of more than one PrC at any given time, so you're still giving up a lot, plus you still have to meet the garbage prereqs.

It doesn't improve enough in Gestalt rules to make it worth it, because, yanno, it's still a garbage class.



Yeah, like Draco said, you've got loony ideas, brother. Action advantage is god, and gestalt completely eliminates the usual problems (since you could just progress another fullcaster side while you're raising swiftblade and get level 9 spells anyways). Past a certain point, you don't need more choices for what to do with your actions per round, you just straight up need more actions per round. Gestalt lets you hit that point very, very early, making Swiftblade outstanding. Pit two properly kitted out gestalt characters against each other and the swiftblade is going to win nine times out of ten because he can counter what the other guy is doing and still do stuff of his own.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
Everybody uses Rope Trick...and everybody knows how to deal with Rope Trick, if true. Stuff a bag of holding up the hole, or use Ethercutting spells to bombard the PC's trapped inside the rope trick and unable to get out. Hells, light a fire under the thing. And that's if you just don't get it dispelled.

Contingency, it does not do what I think you think it does. Most especially, it does not pre-empt something happening to you, nor does it have extrasensory capacity. It reacts after the fact to something that happens to you. And you can only have one of each type on you.

If Celerity wins all combats, then everyone has Celerity, and highest initiative is going to win, anyways. Celerity is broken and if used, then EVERYONE should use it, since it's an 'I Win' button.

Someone who relies on Permabuffs to win dies without them. Saying you can't get your buffs removed is an open challenge to find someone who can remove them for you...adn will do so, and then you do.

Schroedinger's wizard is theorycraft only. The game tends to play very differently. And if PC's abuse the rules for uberness, the DM should be doing so, as well...and the DM has many, many more tricks to play then any PC.

==Aelryinth   
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you