Could someone explain why green hates flyers?

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Explain it flavor-wise, please. Is there a reason? Are birds unnatural in some way? If not, quit printing Plummet.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Explain it flavor-wise, please. Is there a reason? Are birds unnatural in some way? If not, quit printing Plummet.


Green isn't all of nature. Swamps, mountains, islands and plains are all natural.
The sky is part of nature, but it belongs mostly to blue and white, not green.
Rocks are natural, fire is natural. But those are red.
Death is natural, disease is natural. But those are mostly black.

Green is the earth, the soil, the forests. Green is growth, spreading plants, big creatures etc.
Green is the colour of the lush places.

Plants don't fly. Elephants don't fly, rhinos don't fly, beasts don't fly. And the earth, the soil, the land itself, that certainly doesn't fly. And much like the Tarrasque in D&D, green isn't happy when things don't play by it's rules; so it doesn't let things fly high above it.

Green is most of nature, and mostly nature, but it isn't identical to nature.
Historical precedence.

Back in the day, all of the colors had lots of hate based on their enemy colors, so red and green (the worst flying colors) hated lots on blue (the best flying color).

Then the color pie became more focused and it became more of a not-flying color hating on flying rather than green hating on blue. 
To expand on Kingreaper's answer a bit:

Green mana springs from forests, so green is inextricably connected to the land, because all of its power is ultimately derived from the soil. All of green's plants (and thus, its animals, too) depend on the earth, and basically all of green magic is based around those plants (and animals).

Birds (and other flying animals) aren't tied to the earth in this way--the only thing they're tied to is the sky. Green resents this as a perversion of the natural order, a rejection of the earth which all life so fundamentally depends on. Therefore, it hates on things that fly.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

I'd say it's also because green does not want to resort to evasion. It prefers to go through defenders with trample, or eliminate them with deathtouch. To green, circumventing an opponent's defence is the same as admitting that it is too powerful for you, and green really doesn't like to do that.
Explain it flavor-wise, please. Is there a reason? Are birds unnatural in some way? If not, quit printing Plummet.


Green isn't all of nature. Swamps, mountains, islands and plains are all natural.
The sky is part of nature, but it belongs mostly to blue and white, not green.
Rocks are natural, fire is natural. But those are red.
Death is natural, disease is natural. But those are mostly black.

Green is the earth, the soil, the forests. Green is growth, spreading plants, big creatures etc.
Green is the colour of the lush places.

Plants don't fly. Elephants don't fly, rhinos don't fly, beasts don't fly. And the earth, the soil, the land itself, that certainly doesn't fly. And much like the Tarrasque in D&D, green isn't happy when things don't play by it's rules; so it doesn't let things fly high above it.

Green is most of nature, and mostly nature, but it isn't identical to nature.



That doesn't explain why green can kill a bird, but not a zombie or reanimated skeleton, things which are unnatural. Maybe I'm missing something?

Historical precedence.

Back in the day, all of the colors had lots of hate based on their enemy colors, so red and green (the worst flying colors) hated lots on blue (the best flying color).

Then the color pie became more focused and it became more of a not-flying color hating on flying rather than green hating on blue. 



Ah, the appeal to tradition. The last refuge of someone losing a debate.

Birds (and other flying animals) aren't tied to the earth in this way--the only thing they're tied to is the sky. Green resents this as a perversion of the natural order, a rejection of the earth which all life so fundamentally depends on. Therefore, it hates on things that fly.



Yet many birds live in trees. Bats eat fruit. Bees and hummingbirds are one of the major carriers of pollen. Your argument is invalid.

I'd say it's also because green does not want to resort to evasion. It prefers to go through defenders with trample, or eliminate them with deathtouch. To green, circumventing an opponent's defence is the same as admitting that it is too powerful for you, and green really doesn't like to do that.



The same as removing a creature, no doubt. Next!
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
 

That doesn't explain why green can kill a bird, but not a zombie or reanimated skeleton, things which are unnatural. Maybe I'm missing something?


Zombies and reanimated skeletons live on the ground, they come from the soil, they're not creatures of the sky, they're creatures of the earth. And green doesn't mind that as much.

Yet many birds live in trees. Bats eat fruit. Bees and hummingbirds are one of the major carriers of pollen. Your argument is invalid.


But birds, bats, etc. fly away, into the sky. They never touch the soil, never interact with it. Your argument is invalid.

The same as removing a creature, no doubt. Next!

Plummet is removing a cheater. That's not the same as cheating yourself.

 

That doesn't explain why green can kill a bird, but not a zombie or reanimated skeleton, things which are unnatural. Maybe I'm missing something?


Zombies and reanimated skeletons live on the ground, they come from the soil, they're not creatures of the sky, they're creatures of the earth. And green doesn't mind that as much.



Then green certainly won't mind golems either; after all, the things they are made from come from (and never leave) the ground, especially when the ground's made of metal. Your argument is even less valid than before.

Yet many birds live in trees. Bats eat fruit. Bees and hummingbirds are one of the major carriers of pollen. Your argument is invalid.


But birds, bats, etc. fly away, into the sky. They never touch the soil, never interact with it. Your argument is invalid.



But that's not part of green's ideology. Green's ideology is interdependence, expressed best by bees. Trickery is expressed best by an animal that builds traps to catch its prey.

The same as removing a creature, no doubt. Next!

Plummet is removing a cheater. That's not the same as cheating yourself.



That...makes no sense. So you're saying green's a scrub? Dismissed.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt


Then green certainly won't mind golems either; after all, the things they are made from come from (and never leave) the ground, especially when the ground's made of metal. Your argument is even less valid than before.


Metal is not soil.
Metal is specifically unaligned to soil (green) or rock (red) it's metal (colorless)

They're very, very different things. And pretending they're not is just you feeding your own obsession.
But that's not part of green's ideology. Green's ideology is interdependence, expressed best by bees. Trickery is expressed best by an animal that builds traps to catch its prey.


Clearly, you're wrong. Your opinion on Green's ideology doesn't match Green's actual ideology.

Once again, you're doing the same as GM_Champion, starting with an assumption and refusing to see anything that might disagree with it.

That...makes no sense. So you're saying green's a scrub? Dismissed.


Green and white both have rules, and they both think everything should obey their rules.

If you want to call that "being a scrub" then what are you doing right now by saying magic's color pie should obey your rules?

True, but artifact creatures made of wood? Or straw?

And on Mirrodin, again, the ground is made of metal.

If I'm wrong, why does the green section of the color pie say "instinct / interdependence"? You lose again.

And wait, green has rules? Green control is a thing? When did green control become a thing? Can you point me to that eloquent speech given by a Hunted Wumpus or a Primeval Titan, which convinced the Senate to amend a law to include subsection 5.3.28?

I just think making a rule (no green flying) so a card (Plummet) can exist is an exercise in mental masturbation. Hell, I play blue more than anything.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
True, but artifact creatures made of wood? Or straw?


The deeper you go, the more complex things get. As a general rule the vast majority of artifacts are made of metal.

And on Mirrodin, again, the ground is made of metal.


Mirrodin isn't exactly a particularly green place is it?

If I'm wrong, why does the green section of the color pie say "instinct / interdependence"? You lose again.


Those are parts of green. Spinning webs is an instinctive thing. But you say it's not green... because you don't like reach, and you want a reason to hate it.
Bees would fit in green, if they didn't go flying around.

And wait, green has rules? Green control is a thing? When did green control become a thing? Can you point me to that eloquent speech given by a Hunted Wumpus or a Primeval Titan, which convinced the Senate to amend a law to include subsection 5.3.28?


Rules and laws are different things.

Do you think green can't kill creatures directly?
Or that it won't? Because the latter is a rule.

Green has rules, they're just not laws, because that's not how green works. They're still rules.
I just think making a rule (no green flying) so a card (Plummet) can exist is an exercise in mental masturbation. Hell, I play blue more than anything.

That's not why the rule exists though. You just think it is, and refuse to see any other point of view as possible. You're obsessed.

Plummet didn't come out 'til M11. Greens been hating on flying since Alpha. And you think they went "hmmm, we want to publish Plummet in over a decade, let's make green hate flying"
Mirrodin isn't exactly a particularly green place is it?



And we had to pay something like or last time we were there for artifact removal. Red and white got away with c, if you don't care if it's a creature.

Those are parts of green. Spinning webs is an instinctive thing.



As is flying south for the winter.

Bees would fit in green, if they didn't go flying around.



Circular reasoning.

Do you think green can't kill creatures directly?
Or that it won't? Because the latter is a rule.



Green generally prefers "benign neglect". Green won't kill you, but it'll send you out in the jungle with nothing but the clothes on your back for a week.

That's not why the rule exists though. You just think it is, and refuse to see any other point of view as possible. You're obsessed.



Then, why, pray tell, does the rule exist? You haven't been able to come up with an answer.

I just want a balanced limited, that's all. Right now, there are four colors in limited.

It also causes other stupidity, like Simoon. Simoon could be (and now it is), but instead it's because of this rule. And Hurricane was from the same era as Desert Twister, Drop of Honey, and Sandstorm. None of those cards would be made today.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
It's because green doesn't get flyers, so it gets hate to deal with it.
It's because green doesn't get flyers, so it gets hate to deal with it.



Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Point to Captain Obvious...I mean, ChaosLight. Though it raises the obviouis question: Why doesn't green get flyers? Or evasion in general that isn't A) useless in the block in question, or B) wonderful in my land destruction deck and little else? Why are Silhana Ledgewalker and Giant Spider both legit, but combining the two on one card isn't? Why is green's way of dealing with this deficiency to produce a bunch of cards that are useless in Constructed and could've been something useful like a 0/1 with defender for in limited? Why has opening up two new blue keywords meant that I now get vigilance, hexproof, deathtouch, first strike, reach every time? (Granting trample is pointless because every color gets it on anything where it matters.)

Also, why is it a win-more card is too good now?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Honestly i want green to have fliers. Flyer hate is narrow and parasitic, and unplayable outside a sideboard or flying set. Green is the creature color, I think on some level it should get EVERY creature keyword, except unblockable and intimidate. Green isnt sneaky, but flying isn't sneaky. Flying is showy, its big, its flashy, its dragons, its birds. It's very green.
Honestly i want green to have fliers. Flyer hate is narrow and parasitic, and unplayable outside a sideboard or flying set. Green is the creature color, I think on some level it should get EVERY creature keyword, except unblockable and intimidate. Green isnt sneaky, but flying isn't sneaky. Flying is showy, its big, its flashy, its dragons, its birds. It's very green.



I'd say unblockable. Intimidate isn't being sneaky. The creatures that can't block are aware of your presence. They're just too chicken to do anything about you.

Also, green doesn't get disease?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Green infect and wither are weird. But I understand why the bleed it into green.


As is flying south for the winter.


Sure is, but it's not an instinct green accepts.


Circular reasoning.

Nope, to be circular I'd have to be saying "green doesn't have flying because it hates bees". Which I'm not.

Don't name logical fallacies you don't understand.

Green generally prefers "benign neglect". Green won't kill you, but it'll send you out in the jungle with nothing but the clothes on your back for a week.

So you're, umm, wrong about it not having rules.


Then, why, pray tell, does the rule exist? You haven't been able to come up with an answer.

I've given you the flavour justification.
Why the rule was created in the first place?

I don't know. It's really irrelevant. It exists now. If you think it should change, fight for it to be changed for reasons other than WAH! I don't GET this flavour, and I'm RIGHT! 

The flavour could work for green to have fliers. Greens current flavour is that it hates them, but flavour is every bit as malleable as mechanics.

I just want a balanced limited, that's all. Right now, there are four colors in limited.

Then argue for it. Just don't use stupid, completely incorrect, arguments like you have been doing.

It also causes other stupidity, like Simoon. Simoon could be (and now it is), but instead it's because of this rule. And Hurricane was from the same era as Desert Twister, Drop of Honey, and Sandstorm. None of those cards would be made today.

The color pie has changed a lot. Green still hates fliers. You can dislike it, but it's not a "cancer on the color pie" or the cause of Beast Within. Those arguments of yours are simply wrong. Stick to true things.
Green infect and wither are weird. But I understand why the bleed it into green.



It kinda fits. Infection is just overpopulation. Same with cancer.

I remember white infect and how nobody figured it out. It's not like missionaries ever spread the worst disease humanity has ever faced across the globe or anything.

Red infect was the tough one to figure out, really. Ironically, red had wither.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Green and white shouldn't get -1 counters, its just odd. It's like how they justified blue burn..
Yet many birds live in trees. Bats eat fruit. Bees and hummingbirds are one of the major carriers of pollen. Your argument is invalid.

No. It's inconsistent and not universally applicable, but that doesn't make it invalid. Flavor doesn't have to be consistent or universal, only broadly justifiable. Go right ahead and find a consistent, universal flavor justification for equipment, or auras, or "nonblack" clauses on black removal, or pretty much anything at all. You're not going to find one.

Come join me at No Goblins Allowed


Because frankly, being here depresses me these days.

It's because green doesn't get flyers, so it gets hate to deal with it.



Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Point to Captain Obvious...I mean, ChaosLight. Though it raises the obviouis question: Why doesn't green get flyers? Or evasion in general? (...)


For the same reason white doesn't get deathtouch: it's not a tool that colour wishes to employ.

To green, evasion is either an admission of weakness ("I can't overpower your blocker, so I'll go around it.") or redundant ("I can overpower your blocker, so why go around it?"). Green is the colour of direct confrontation, of sheer power. It gets trample because its creatures go through yours; flying is the opposite of that.
I think the simplest way to look at it is that each color thinks its way of doing things is best, and frankly it messes up other colors for not being like them.

Black kills non-black for not being black in the first place.
Blue counters because it thinks it knows which cards it needs to stop
White arrests because it knows you can't remove it as easily as white can.
Green blows up fliers because fliers refuse to fight down on the ground like green does.

All that being said, I think there is some merit to the OP. Black and Red can't deal with enchants. Blue and and Black don't deal with artifacts very well. But Green can do almost anything.
Green can't do anything well though, other than creatures, sometimes.


Ah, the appeal to tradition. The last refuge of someone losing a debate.



Any reason why you're being ridiculously confrontational?

Tradition is the origin of green flying hate, but the current mechanical identity is that green lacks flyers and thus has fewer opportunities to interact with them.

Since reach can only pull so much weight in a set, they let green have flying removal as well to level the playing field as it were.

"If I can't have flyers, no one can."   
Circular reasoning.

Nope, to be circular I'd have to be saying "green doesn't have flying because it hates bees". Which I'm not.

Don't name logical fallacies you don't understand.



Green hates flying because it hates flying. That is circular reasoning, my friend. You've never established why green hates flying. Let's look at what MaRo says the colors value:

White: Order, morality, community
Blue: Intellect, knowledge, rationality
Black: Ambition, pragmatism, amorality
Red: Freedom, emotion, chaos
Green: Interdependence, nostalgia, instinct

What they hate:

White: Parasitism (why white hates black), dissent (why white hates red)
Blue: Emotion (why blue hates red), stagnation (why blue hates green)
Black: Rules (why black hates white), naïveté (why black hates green)
Red: Control (why red hates white), rationality (why red hates blue)
Green: Parasitism (why green hates black), progress (why green hates blue)

And you're adding this "the ground" stuff.

Green generally prefers "benign neglect". Green won't kill you, but it'll send you out in the jungle with nothing but the clothes on your back for a week.

So you're, umm, wrong about it not having rules.



Objectively, red hates rules.

Rule-Breaking Card 

Instant

Destroy target enchantment.

Won't happen.

It also causes other stupidity, like Simoon. Simoon could be (and now it is), but instead it's because of this rule. And Hurricane was from the same era as Desert Twister, Drop of Honey, and Sandstorm. None of those cards would be made today.

The color pie has changed a lot. Green still hates fliers. You can dislike it, but it's not a "cancer on the color pie" or the cause of Beast Within. Those arguments of yours are simply wrong. Stick to true things.



And Hurricane led to a set where green got the only creature removal. Very next set.

It metastatized very quickly from there, to, even before Beast Within, Mercy Killing.

Any reason why you're being ridiculously confrontational?



Just pointing out your fallacies when I see them.

Tradition is the origin of green flying hate, but the current mechanical identity is that green lacks flyers and thus has fewer opportunities to interact with them.



For which, there's an easy out. *snicker*

Since reach can only pull so much weight in a set, they let green have flying removal as well to level the playing field as it were.



That's all fine and good, but it results in "This card will either be really good or pointless, probably the latter." I've had one-third my sealed pool be green and simply played before, with 20 lands, because of this.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
Circular reasoning.

Nope, to be circular I'd have to be saying "green doesn't have flying because it hates bees". Which I'm not.

Don't name logical fallacies you don't understand.



Green hates flying because it hates flying. That is circular reasoning, my friend.


But that's not what I said. So please stop pretending it was.

You're being an eejit. You need to acknowledge when you're wrong; and claiming I was using circular logic was you being wrong.

And Hurricane led to a set where green got the only creature removal. Very next set.

It metastatized very quickly from there, to, even before Beast WithinMercy Killing.


Those have absolutely nothing to do with flying hate.
They fit a common pattern of cards in magic: The "it's not really destroying if you replace it with something else" cards.

So go on, proof it's all about flying?
Oh, wait, you have none. You just hate green killing fliers so much that you choose to believe everything is it's fault.
All that being said, I think there is some merit to the OP. Black and Red can't deal with enchants. Blue and and Black don't deal with artifacts very well. But Green can do almost anything.



I think it is also fair to point out, how often have you lost directly to an artifact or enchantment in limited? Compared to a flying creature. I think evasion is generally more dangerous in limited than artifacts and enchantments tend to be, therefore a monogreen deck would be in much trouble without ways to deal with fliers than red and black are for not dealing with enchantments.

Anyways, with Fight now a thing, I wouldn't be surprised to see flying hate fade out. 
56965458 wrote:
As long as it's random, I really can't see where's the problem. Anyway, there's already a few standard ways for doing this. We listed them in this thread. If someone does the bogey-bogey, eats the cards, waits until they come out, look out the approximate order, place replacements in the same order, calls the president to ask him to give him a string of numbers, puts the card in the given order, then pick the cards in the order given by taking the date of birth of his opponent, reversed, and taking only every other number, then a judge can clearly declare that he's random enough.
56874518 wrote:
The beauty of sarcasm is that when the person using it is totally incorrect, you can just remove the sarcasm and end up with a post that is actually correct.
o___O Another thread where bayfalconer's "hatred" for green has led to a pointless argument.

That said I disagree with KR's assertions about green mana being "linked to the soil" which is why I have never had a problem with :G: flyers and why I think that there should be more- and why I also think cards like Hurricane and Plow Under are flavorfully justified in :G:. This is because I think :G:'s power stems as much from primordial force (like terraforming winds, or fissures) as they are from the advent of life (the trees, the organisms and the game of predation.) In this way I think we're looking at too narrow a flavor to assume :G: hates flyers because they aren't beasts- but rather :G: preys on flyers because they expose themselves to primordial force- which :G:'s creatures have become resistant too (high toughness, lack of flying etc.) I'd actually be pretty thrilled to see a green Fault Line one of these days for that reason.
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Circular reasoning.

Nope, to be circular I'd have to be saying "green doesn't have flying because it hates bees". Which I'm not.

Don't name logical fallacies you don't understand.



Green hates flying because it hates flying. That is circular reasoning, my friend. You've never established why green hates flying.


But I have.

To green, evasion is either an admission of weakness ("I can't overpower your blocker, so I'll go around it.") or redundant ("I can overpower your blocker, so why go around it?"). Green is the colour of direct confrontation, of sheer power. It gets trample because its creatures go through yours; flying is the opposite of that.



Just pointing out your fallacies when I see them.



How is it a fallacy that the origins of green's mechanical focus of flying removal came from alpha's color hosing cards?


Just pointing out your fallacies when I see them.



How is it a fallacy that the origins of green's mechanical focus of flying removal came from alpha's color hosing cards?



Where does red's countering fit in to modern design?

@Kingreaper: Okay, explain why green hates flying without using "green hates flying" as an expression. You're being an eejit, and flaming me too.

@K9GM3: That would be fine, but "Yeah, I kill you now. Regardless of how strong you are." is, perforce, an admission of weakness.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt


Just pointing out your fallacies when I see them.



How is it a fallacy that the origins of green's mechanical focus of flying removal came from alpha's color hosing cards?



Where does red's countering fit in to modern design?



What does that have to do with anything?

Red's ability to counter things has completely disappeared save for the weirdly niche Guttural Response, and even that existed in the previous "age" of Magic design.
Green's ability to hate on flying creatures has been a constant since Magic's conception.
@Kingreaper: Okay, explain why green hates flying without using "green hates flying" as an expression. You're being an eejit, and flaming me too.


So, because you accused me of doing something I hadn't done (using circular reasoning) I now have to jump to your whims?


Oh, okay then, here you go: 

Green isn't all of nature. Swamps, mountains, islands and plains are all natural.
The sky is part of nature, but it belongs mostly to blue and white, not green.
Rocks are natural, fire is natural. But those are red.
Death is natural, disease is natural. But those are mostly black.

Green is the earth, the soil, the forests. Green is growth, spreading plants, big creatures etc.
Green is the colour of the lush places.

Plants don't fly. Elephants don't fly, rhinos don't fly, beasts don't fly. And the earth, the soil, the land itself, that certainly doesn't fly. And much like the Tarrasque in D&D, green isn't happy when things don't play by it's rules; so it doesn't let things fly high above it.

Green is most of nature, and mostly nature, but it isn't identical to nature.



Not how "green hates flying" isn't in there ANYWHERE.


Try and be sensible please. You're not stupid, I've seen you make sensible arguments; but you're not making them here.
Here, you are making terrible arguments.
That's all well and good, but it didn't explain why green hates flying. It explained (somewhat) why green doesn't get flying. Though of course most animals operate on instinct too; what color we put them in just depends on how we anthropomorphize them. You could put domestic animals in white, but they're also in green sometimes. A mosquito fits black because of malaria and the like, but little else. What about a moth involves selflessness and pursuit of a utopia? What scientific discoveries have been made by crows? Are bats really parasitic enough to be black? Are lizards really all that capricious?
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
That's all well and good, but it didn't explain why green hates flying. It explained (somewhat) why green doesn't get flying.


Actually, it did. Green hates things which don't play by its rules. Flying is getting as far away from the soil as you can be. So green's not going to be fond of it.

Though of course most animals operate on instinct too; what color we put them in just depends on how we anthropomorphize them. You could put domestic animals in white, but they're also in green sometimes. A mosquito fits black because of malaria and the like, but little else. What about a moth involves selflessness and pursuit of a utopia? What scientific discoveries have been made by crows? Are bats really parasitic enough to be black? Are lizards really all that capricious? 


Sure. We could cut up the creature pie, or even the whole colour pie, differently. But it's mostly too late; we can't take away an ability a colour has had for as long as the game's been around. Even if it stopped being printed there's still 20 years of cards with it in.

The thing is, the emotional side and the elemental side of the colours are two seperate things, that only somewhat overlap.

Emotionally blue is about logic, invention, etc.
Elementally blue is the sky and the sea.

Emotionally white is about civilisation, working together, etc.
Elementally white is about the flat lands, empty places, fields of grass, and the sky.

Emotionally black is about putting yourself first, amorality etc.
Elementally black is about rot, decay, disease and pests

Emotionally red is about freedom, emotion etc.
Elementally red is about rocks and fire.
That's all well and good, but it didn't explain why green hates flying. It explained (somewhat) why green doesn't get flying.


Actually, it did. Green hates things which don't play by its rules. Flying is getting as far away from the soil as you can be. So green's not going to be fond of it.



That's white. Green isn't out there building a perfect society. Green would prefer society didn't exist. When I see a green Propaganda or Humility, I'll agree with you about rules.

Though of course most animals operate on instinct too; what color we put them in just depends on how we anthropomorphize them. You could put domestic animals in white, but they're also in green sometimes. A mosquito fits black because of malaria and the like, but little else. What about a moth involves selflessness and pursuit of a utopia? What scientific discoveries have been made by crows? Are bats really parasitic enough to be black? Are lizards really all that capricious? 


Sure. We could cut up the creature pie, or even the whole colour pie, differently. But it's mostly too late; we can't take away an ability a colour has had for as long as the game's been around. Even if it stopped being printed there's still 20 years of cards with it in.



Except for, you know, ISD. And Lorwyn gave us black and whte treefolk and elves, green and blue kithkin, four-color merfolk, black faeries...

The thing is, the emotional side and the elemental side of the colours are two seperate things, that only somewhat overlap.

Emotionally blue is about logic, invention, etc.
Elementally blue is the sky and the sea.

Emotionally white is about civilisation, working together, etc.
Elementally white is about the flat lands, empty places, fields of grass, and the sky.

Emotionally black is about putting yourself first, amorality etc.
Elementally black is about rot, decay, disease and pests

Emotionally red is about freedom, emotion etc.
Elementally red is about rocks and fire.



And elementally green is about life. Not "nature" (the logic behind Hurricane) but life. That's why green prefers to kill things by getting its hands dirty.

And saying every color has "magic" is equally foolish. That's the same fallacy that created early blue.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
 If you want a reason why green gets flyer destruction, you actually gave a pretty good one yourself earlier in the thread.

So you're saying green's a scrub?



Basically, yes. Take a look at the colour wheel. One of green's enemies is black: the colour that, more than any other, faces the world as it is. Nothing is off-limits to black. One important thing to note, though, is that black also thinks nothing should be off-limits for its opponents. Black will resort to every dirty trick in the book, and it won't blame you for doing the same. If anything, it'll respect you all the more for doing what works.

Green is different. Green has an idea of what combat should look like: two creatures face off, and whichever one is deadliest wins. That's why it doesn't like using flying creatures: they're all about staying out of reach and avoiding combat. But unlike black, green believes that other colours should play by its rules. But they don't, so green is forced to adapt. Outright destroying creatures may seem like an ungreen thing to do, but not to green itself. Green thinks it's just restoring the natural order of combat: two creatures facing each other head-on.
Green infect and wither are weird. But I understand why the bleed it into green.



It kinda fits. Infection is just overpopulation. Same with cancer.

I remember white infect and how nobody figured it out. It's not like missionaries ever spread the worst disease humanity has ever faced across the globe or anything.

Red infect was the tough one to figure out, really. Ironically, red had wither.


I don't get it. Are you refering to the actual diseases that missionaries spread or are you saying that religion is the worst disease humanity has ever faced?
 If you want a reason why green gets flyer destruction, you actually gave a pretty good one yourself earlier in the thread.

So you're saying green's a scrub?



Basically, yes. Take a look at the colour wheel. One of green's enemies is black: the colour that, more than any other, faces the world as it is. Nothing is off-limits to black. One important thing to note, though, is that black also thinks nothing should be off-limits for its opponents. Black will resort to every dirty trick in the book, and it won't blame you for doing the same. If anything, it'll respect you all the more for doing what works.

Green is different. Green has an idea of what combat should look like: two creatures face off, and whichever one is deadliest wins. That's why it doesn't like using flying creatures: they're all about staying out of reach and avoiding combat. But unlike black, green believes that other colours should play by its rules. But they don't, so green is forced to adapt. Outright destroying creatures may seem like an ungreen thing to do, but not to green itself. Green thinks it's just restoring the natural order of combat: two creatures facing each other head-on.



I think that's a type green- but not green in it's entirety. Above all else Green is about naturalism - which tends to involve seeing the world the way it is in greytones, while Black can also be wise, or can see the world through the blinders of nihilism. In this way, all colors can carry a sense of immaturity and ignorance on some basis- but that isn't representitive of the color of mana  on the whole. At it's best, Green is wise and harnesses the force of growth, creation and recycling- At worst it's savage and unwilling to learn.
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Green infect and wither are weird. But I understand why the bleed it into green.



It kinda fits. Infection is just overpopulation. Same with cancer.

I remember white infect and how nobody figured it out. It's not like missionaries ever spread the worst disease humanity has ever faced across the globe or anything.

Red infect was the tough one to figure out, really. Ironically, red had wither.


I don't get it. Are you refering to the actual diseases that missionaries spread or are you saying that religion is the worst disease humanity has ever faced?



Smallpox killed millions before it was eradicated, of course; most medical historians consider it the deadliest disease in human history, shifting the demographics of three continents. (The flipside of this is that Europeans get a lot of bizarro hereditary disorders which some think may have helped fight infections.) You actually can get a preview of this if you look at Roman history, when traders brought smallpox over from Egypt. It quickly spread through Italy. Fast forward to the Common Era. As missionaries traveled the world, they brought smallpox (and measles, rubella, bubonic plague, and TB) wherever they went.

 If you want a reason why green gets flyer destruction, you actually gave a pretty good one yourself earlier in the thread.

So you're saying green's a scrub?



Basically, yes. Take a look at the colour wheel. One of green's enemies is black: the colour that, more than any other, faces the world as it is. Nothing is off-limits to black. One important thing to note, though, is that black also thinks nothing should be off-limits for its opponents. Black will resort to every dirty trick in the book, and it won't blame you for doing the same. If anything, it'll respect you all the more for doing what works.

Green is different. Green has an idea of what combat should look like: two creatures face off, and whichever one is deadliest wins. That's why it doesn't like using flying creatures: they're all about staying out of reach and avoiding combat. But unlike black, green believes that other colours should play by its rules. But they don't, so green is forced to adapt. Outright destroying creatures may seem like an ungreen thing to do, but not to green itself. Green thinks it's just restoring the natural order of combat: two creatures facing each other head-on.



I think that's a type green- but not green in it's entirety. Above all else Green is about naturalism - which tends to involve seeing the world the way it is in greytones, while Black can also be wise, or can see the world through the blinders of nihilism. In this way, all colors can carry a sense of immaturity and ignorance on some basis- but that isn't representitive of the color of mana  on the whole. At it's best, Green is wise and harnesses the force of growth, creation and recycling- At worst it's savage and unwilling to learn.



Every color has a delusion:

White: Everyone will like my idea of how everything should be. (Evil side: And if they don't, I'll make them like it.)
Blue: A completely rational mind exists. (Evil side: I have it. You don't.)
Black: Everyone is out to get me. (Evil side: I'll get them first.)
Red: If we just let everyone do whatever they wanted, it'd all work out. (Evil side: And if it doesn't, it's better than having a stupid law to stop us!)
Green: There is no alternative. (Evil side: There is no alternative.)

But we can't say "green likes rules". Green likes F=ma. Green doesn't like anyone who thinks lions will lie with lambs.

Black and green are kinda weird in that they both advocate a type of social Darwinism. Green simply is a true believer in it, whereas black doesn't want to be under the same rules it creates, hence Murder versus Prey Upon. Both can destroy any creature (protection, shroud, and the like notwithstanding), but one requires you prove yourself stronger.

And of course, Plummet is the epitome of "I can't deal with this." It's nothing like green itself.
139359831 wrote:
Clever deduction Watson! Maybe you can explain why Supergirl is trying to kill me.
---- Autocard is your friend. Lightning Bolt = Lightning Bolt
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